Wizard//Sorcerer - how to choose spells?

[ImperatorK]

What's the trick to choosing spells for a gestalted Wizard//Sorcerer?
On one hand it's pretty self explanatory to take most often used spells on the Sorcerer side and the utilitarian, situational ones on Wizard side.
But maybe there are good points for doing it differently? Give me what you think, Playground.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, I'd go with a variety of Save or Lose spells for the Sorcerer side. That lets you pick the most appropriate one and blast the bad guy with it. Since you don't have to worry about maximizing the overall utility of the Sorc spells, you can focus on what will kill guys the best.

The wizard can handle the subtle aspects of divination, defense, etc.

That said, seems like a pretty suboptimal combo. A Druid/Wizard would be far superior, imho (better saves, health, etc).

[mootoall]

If you want such a sub-optimal choice, then I'd just go for blasting on the Sorc side and metamagicked blasting on the Wiz side.

[ImperatorK]

How optimal the class combo is, is irrelevant. I'm analyzing spell choices, not class choices.

[Talya]

A second option is to go focused specialist on the wizard side, and take primarily spells from the three banned schools on the sorcerer side. (And again, best to take ones you'll use a lot.)

[ImperatorK]

Does metamagic has any influence on the choices?

[Talya]

Not really, no. Obviously, if you plan on quickening a spell (or metamagicking a swift spell), you don't take it on the sorcerer side. (although, since you already have a familiar from the wizard class, you are best to trade out the sorcerer's for a rapid metamagic variant.)

[darksolitaire]

Wizard can cast quickened spells, such as true strikes, assay spell resistances and hold person, which could combo well with sorcerer spells metamagicked for damage.

Also, there are unique spells for both sorcerer and wizard, such as those in races of the dragon, which make good picks for one side.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, boosting 2 stats could be problematic. I'd go for no save spells (like buffs, or the rare "no save, just X" spells) at Sorc, and save-or-X's on Wiz.

As for metamagic, you don't really want metamagic on Sorc side. Arcane Fusion makes metamagic OK, but otherwise, Sorc metamagic sucks compared to Wiz.

EDIT: Ah, Rapid Metamagic. Forgot that.

[Talya]

As for metamagic, you don't really want metamagic on Sorc side.


Well, he doesn't get metamagic on one side or the other...if he takes metamagic feats, he gets the option to use them on both.

[faceroll]

I'd go wizard//erudite or psion, for int synergy.

But I'd put stuff on the sorcerer side that you're always going to want to have handy- grease, glitterdust, dispel magic, a couple good blasting spells, slow, haste, black tentacles, enervate. Actually, scratch enervate. It's weaksauce without metamagic abuse, but with metamagic abuse, you're better off using evocations before enervate.

You can also pick up the versatile spellcaster feat and to spontaneously cast wizard spells by extending two spell slots. :smallsmile:

[2xMachina]

Well, he doesn't get metamagic on one side or the other...if he takes metamagic feats, he gets the option to use them on both.

I meant that the Sorc side shouldn't use metamagic spells. Leave the Wiz side to do that.

(Also, not Arcane Fusion. I should have said Arcane Spellsurge)

[faceroll]

I meant that the Sorc side shouldn't use metamagic spells. Leave the Wiz side to do that.

(Also, not Arcane Fusion. I should have said Arcane Spellsurge)

Actually, sorcerers benefit from metamagic much more than wizards. Being able to still or silence a spell on the fly is much more useful than wasting slots ahead of time on spells you may not need stilled or silenced.

[2xMachina]

Casting takes a full round tho. Kinda easy to interrupt.

[ImperatorK]

5-foot step.

[Talya]

Yeah, I played a sorcerer in a single saturday-night campaign for 5 years, spanning up to level 18, and used a lot of metamagic (without rapid metamagic, even), and never once had a spell interupted, ever. (The closest I came wasn't even on a metamagicked spell. A bunch of devils with strange flame attacks readied an action to shoot me at range if I tried to cast a spell. Fortunately, my concentration ranks were maxed.)

[Greenish]

Casting takes a full round tho. Kinda easy to interrupt.Casting time of full round is not the same casting time of one round. Spells with casting time of full round are not easier to interrupt than those with casting time of a standard action in any respect.

[Psyren]

Casting time of full round is not the same casting time of one round. Spells with casting time of full round are not easier to interrupt than those with casting time of a standard action in any respect.

Actually, there is one difference - FR casting-time spells can't be used in a grapple. So if someone uses their AoO to grapple you and succeeds, it doesn't matter if they do enough damage to beat your concentration check.

[Greenish]

Actually, there is one difference - FR casting-time spells can't be used in a grapple. So if someone uses their AoO to grapple you and succeeds, it doesn't matter if they do enough damage to beat your concentration check.Ah, good catch. Grappling rules, grappling rules, you think you know them but you never will…

[Talya]

Ha. While our DM did not run the world as Ye Olde Magick Emporiumart, the first item I made it a priority to get on my sorceress was a ring of freedom of movement.

Grapplers can frack off.

[Radar]

Take full advantage of Sorcerer-specific spells: Arcane Fusion line, Wings of Flurry and Arcane Spellsurge. The last one os the most important for such a gestalt: it changes your standard action Sorcerer spells to swift action without affecting your Wizard spells - who needs Quicken Spell?
As action economy is the most important factor in D&D, this is IMO vital for a Wiz/Sorc.
At any rate, daily buffs should be on Wizard side, since you'll be casting them exactly once each day. Save or Lose spells should all go on one side, since you won't be able to buff two casting stats. I'm not quite sure, which side should it be. If you'd choose Wizard as your primary caster (higher Int then Cha), then you could focus your Sorcerer on Summons (versatile offensive and utility spells), Solid Fog (and similar spells), Walls and common combat buffs.

[Psyren]

Ah, good catch. Grappling rules, grappling rules, you think you know them but you never will…

I remember learning that particular rules vagary due to this OotS strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) Xykon's spell should have been impossible in that situation - unless he has Rapid Metamagic, or more likely that ACF from PHB2 that you have to give up your familiar for. People were using that as a reason why he doesn't seem to have one.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would talk your DM into letting Ultimate Magus progress only one casting class and take that on the sorcerer side.

As for spells - Let your Sorcerer side take your combat spells. Don't focus on cha and take no save ranged touch spells like scorching ray, magic misile, the orbs, and enveneration. Mix up the effects so you have a nice mix of energy types and some effects like level drain in there so you can take on any threat. Also consider buffs and utility with short durations that you will use oftine, blur, invisability, mirror images, shield, fly ect.

on the wizard side take spells you think you will need for that day, like divinations (augry), longterm buffs (overland flight, mage armor), and utility spells (identify, stoneshape) that you may need later. Also take any combat spells that require saves on this side like fireball or such.

Remember that a wizard can leave spell slots unfilled and fill them by takeing 15min of rest to prepare spells. I would consider leaving at least one or two slots in each level of spell unprepared for when you suddenly need to teleport or something.

[2xMachina]

Well, there are cheesy ways to turn a wizard into spontaneous casters.

Something like Versatile Spellcaster.

Cast spontaneous spell? Check.

Now trade all pairs of prepared spells for a spontaneous spell 1 lvl higher.

[Radar]

Well, there are cheesy ways to turn a wizard into spontaneous casters.

Something like Versatile Spellcaster.

Cast spontaneous spell? Check.

Now trade all pairs of prepared spells for a spontaneous spell 1 lvl higher.
Meh, Uncanny Forethought lets you cast any spell from your spellbook instead of your prepared one - for just one feat.
To make Wizard qualify as a spontaneous caster, take Spontaneous Divination ACF.

[faceroll]

Meh, Uncanny Forethought lets you cast any spell from your spellbook instead of your prepared one - for just one feat.
To make Wizard qualify as a spontaneous caster, take Spontaneous Divination ACF.

Two feats, actually, and you may only use it a number of times per day equal to your int mod.

[Radar]

Two feats, actually, and you may only use it a number of times per day equal to your int mod.
>.<
Still good and by far clearer then applying Versatile Spellcaster to a Wizard.

[faceroll]

>.<
Still good and by far clearer then applying Versatile Spellcaster to a Wizard.

Oh, absolutely. Int mod spontaneous spells a day? That means you could mess up like 10 times in preparing your spells, and still be fine. Versatile Spellcaster also wrecks the number of spells you have, which is a bummer.

[Fouredged Sword]

Most Dm's throw the book at you if you try to apply Versitle spellcaster to a wizard.

Just becuse it is raw doesn't mean it flys.

[faceroll]

Most Dm's throw the book at you if you try to apply Versitle spellcaster to a wizard.

Just becuse it is raw doesn't mean it flys.

It's really not that bad. It halves the number of spells/day a wizard gets. I haven't had any problems with it yet, but I tend to run very difficult encounters.

[Jack_Simth]

What's the trick to choosing spells for a gestalted Wizard//Sorcerer?
On one hand it's pretty self explanatory to take most often used spells on the Sorcerer side and the utilitarian, situational ones on Wizard side.
But maybe there are good points for doing it differently? Give me what you think, Playground.
Note: This particular build is one of the classic examples of a choice in gestalt that looks good at first glance, but is considerably less optimal than you might think (almost identical spell list, split casting stat, only one good save, d4 hit die, 2+Int skill points/level). Depending on your personal optimization level within that, and the optimization level of the rest of the team, this is OK.

That's not what you asked, though.

What you did ask:
That's pretty much how you do it. The only note to be aware of is that not all attack spells will be used often, and not all utility spells will be used sparingly. As to the rest of the build: you have Charisma be a priority over Int, use the Sorcerer side for the "use often" spells (2+/day), and you use the Wizard side for the "occasional" spells (1/day or less) and item crafting spells.

[ericgrau]

On one hand it's pretty self explanatory to take most often used spells on the Sorcerer side and the utilitarian, situational ones on Wizard side.
But maybe there are good points for doing it differently? Give me what you think, Playground.
Well I'd put true utility spells on scrolls, not even preparing them as wizard spells. It's more like I'd put the bread-and-butter, spells I always cast on the sorcerer side and the spells that might be often but not always useful on the wizard side. So the wizard still might have spells that would be good to prepare on a general list. It's more like I'm trying to pick spells that might sometimes get swapped out for the wizard (still good spells) rather than spells that are rarely useful (usually bad spells).

But if I know a spell always gets cast once and only once every day I might also put it on the wizard list. Buffs like haste are an example if you don't tend to have more than one fight, even though it might be a bread-and-butter spell. Or morning buffs where you only need one for yourself and it lasts all day not one for 3 different party members. Like mage armor. For that matter because you have so many spells per day you'll want to burn your many extra spells on morning buffs, quickened spells, swift spells, etc. because you only have so many actions. It's not bad... you just need to coordinate it ahead of time with your soon-to-be party of Xzillas.