Cleric Archer or Archivist Archer?

[JKTrickster]

I've seen both of them being thrown around before - about how a Cleric/Archivist can "do archery" better than even a Ranger can. Normally this comes from the buffs + access to higher level divine spells.

But compared to each other, which is better? Cleric can get Knowledge Devotion just like Archivists can, and without spending the feat, and there is a feat that gives Wis to Ranged Attacks (although I personally don't think that it would be really worth it until higher levels). Clerics also get TU attempts to fuel Devotion feats like Travel Devotion, etc. and other goodies.

On the other hand Archivists can pick up a lot of tasty Ranger spells (I believe the consensus are the spells from Champions of Ruin, correct me if I'm wrong) and at level 11 they pick up the best Move Action in the game, Dread Secret.

So which is better? I personally think that the Archivist isn't superior - but because it is less "devoted' to being an archer, it is more of a spellcaster.

[The Dark Fiddler]

(although I personally don't think that it would be really worth it until higher levels).

Why? :smallconfused:

Your Wisdom bonus is gong to be about the same as any archer's Dexterity bonus, baring a +2 from elf or halfling or something.

[Piggy Knowles]

Archivists start much slower as archers than clerics do. Clerics can front-load feats pretty effectively with smart domain choices, and can also use domains to pick up longbow proficiency, if necessary. Archivists don't have that option, but as you mentioned, they have better spell selection (depending on the DM, and how readily available spells are), and they get more out of feats like Knowledge Devotion than Clerics do, both because of Int synergy and Dark Tactics.

I played an Archivist archer and it was awesome, but it was a game that started at level 6, so I didn't have a lot of these issues - the cleric's feat advantage wasn't so pronounced by that point, and I had a level in the Ruathar prestige class to give me longbow proficiency. I also never had problems locating Ranger or Paladin spells, and could often even find rare stuff off of domain lists.

[Talya]

Clerics will have a higher wisdom than archivists. Archivists only use wisdom for bonus spells, INT is more important to them. Zen Archery is most effective at low levels (when that +4 for 18 wisdom is going to make the biggest difference), too. Also, until they get divine power, the cleric has far more BAB (3/4) than the archivist (1/2).

In general, I would pick a cleric archer over an archivist.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, until they get divine power, the cleric has far more BAB (3/4) than the archivist (1/2).

I overall agree, except for this part. At low levels, the difference between 1/2 BAB and 3/4 BAB is almost non-existent - things like Knowledge Devotion more than bridge the gap. By the time it starts making a difference, Divine Power comes into play. That alone is why Cloistered Cleric is almost always superior to regular Cleric, even for martial characters.

Just to illustrate the point:

level 1- BAB is same (+0 / +0)
level 2- same (+1 / +1)
level 3- 3/4 BAB is one higher (+2 / +1)
level 4- 3/4 BAB is one higher (+3 / +2)
level 5- 3/4 BAB is one higher (+3 / +2)
level 6- 3/4 BAB is one higher (+4 / +3)
level 7- 3/4 BAB is two higher (+5 / +3), but Divine Power is now available

So again, for the first six levels, the difference will only be one point (which is the absolute minimum that Knowledge Devotion will get you). The only significant difference comes into play at the same level Divine Power is available.

[2xMachina]

I kinda like War domain. There's a reserve feat, +(Spell lvl) damage, so long you hold a (spell lvl) war domain spell in reserve.

[Devmaar]

Archivists only use wisdom for bonus spells, INT is more important to them.

This is only true if they use spells with saving throws, a buff-focused archivist only needs Int=10+highest spell level

[Talya]

This is only true if they use spells with saving throws, a buff-focused archivist only needs Int=10+highest spell level

Unlike a favored soul, for example, who uses Charisma for both bonus spells and to determine the highest spell level they can cast, while using wisdom for the DC modifier, Archivists use Int for both the highest spell they can cast AND the spell DCs. Wisdom is only used for bonus spells.

This means the archivist needs an intelligence of at least 19 by level 17. He cannot dump it, no matter what. Even if he's not focusing on spell DCs, this forces him to split his focus between having a high INT and a high WIS.

[Devmaar]

Right, I'm not suggesting an Archivist can get away with dumping Int, they just don't need to pump it to the absolute max. If they don't use saves they can get away with 13 Int and a Headband.

[Haldir]

In my experience, Cleric Archer is a wonderfully effective character. If there's a round in combat where you don't have anything to do, you're doing it wrong!

[JKTrickster]

Why? :smallconfused:

Your Wisdom bonus is gong to be about the same as any archer's Dexterity bonus, baring a +2 from elf or halfling or something.

Because like you said they are about the same. Then why would you waste a feat for a mere +2 (tops) to your attack bonus? At higher levels Wis really gets out on top but until then its not worth it.

Mmm well I guess it goes down to what makes a better Archer? Ranger spells? Or the flexibility that the Cleric offers?

The Archivist does have a lot of MAD though. How does one balance Int, Wis, and Dex?

[Optimator]

Archivists can get the druid spell Wind Tunnel and all the Ranger archery spells, so I'd say Archivists are great contenders.

Also, there's both Owl's Insight and Divine Agility available for Archivists, on top of all the other Cleric and Druid buffs like Prayer, Divine Favor/Power, Bite of the Werefoo, the Primal chain of spells, among many others.

[Flickerdart]

With proper CL optimization, the Ranger spells Archivists get become incredibly potent - for instance, they can nab Hunter's Eye as early as 3rd level, and get something like +4d6 SA from it if not higher. However, domains are some of the best ways to boost these spells (the Oracle domain gives a hefty +2 to Divinations) so getting your hands on domain powers can be valuable, maybe with a dip into Cleric or something.

Without buffs though, Cleric is the clear winner, since they can get passive/immediate bonuses a lot easier than Archivists.

[DMVerdandi]

I've seen both of them being thrown around before - about how a Cleric/Archivist can "do archery" better than even a Ranger can. Normally this comes from the buffs + access to higher level divine spells.
Well, a cleric can buff more with spontaneous domains, so a war domain cleric can buff all day without investing in dmm.

However, as you say, ranger spells make archery TOO AWESOME.





But compared to each other, which is better? Cleric can get Knowledge Devotion just like Archivists can, and without spending the feat, and there is a feat that gives Wis to Ranged Attacks (although I personally don't think that it would be really worth it until higher levels). Clerics also get TU attempts to fuel Devotion feats like Travel Devotion, etc. and other goodies.

Very true.






On the other hand Archivists can pick up a lot of tasty Ranger spells (I believe the consensus are the spells from Champions of Ruin, correct me if I'm wrong) and at level 11 they pick up the best Move Action in the game, Dread Secret.

So which is better? I personally think that the Archivist isn't superior - but because it is less "devoted' to being an archer, it is more of a spellcaster.
I would say archivist, simply because it can switch it up.
He can be anything and everything depending on which Prayer books they have.

Also they can eventually learn damn near everything.
Store your books in a secret chest, call them out when you need to study, ect.



Because like you said they are about the same. Then why would you waste a feat for a mere +2 (tops) to your attack bonus? At higher levels Wis really gets out on top but until then its not worth it.

Mmm well I guess it goes down to what makes a better Archer? Ranger spells? Or the flexibility that the Cleric offers?

The Archivist does have a lot of MAD though. How does one balance Int, Wis, and Dex?
Academic priest.
It is a feat from dragonlance campaign setting.
Completely changes the casting and bonus spell score to INT.

[Curmudgeon]

Academic priest.
It is a feat from dragonlance campaign setting.
Completely changes the casting and bonus spell score to INT.
Academic Priest is not from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, the only Wizards of the Coast D&D book for Dragonlance. Instead it's from Legends of the Twins, which is a Sovereign Press book and not designed to be compatible with D&D. So that's only a feat for Clerics of Ansalon (i.e., Dragonlance Clerics), not D&D Clerics.

[Keld Denar]

My problem with Zen Archery is that it doesn't change Dex prereqs. Sure, Rapid Shot only requires a 13 Dex, but (Greater) Manyshot requires 17 Dex. That kinda takes the SAD out of Zen Archery...

[faceroll]

Cleric is better, imo, because it gets earlier access to DMM, and with cloistered cleric, the 3 domains you get are effectively 3 free feats.

Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Sacred Exorcist 1
Turning from the Cleric levels should be the lightbringer variant in castle ravenloft. Sacred exorcist gives you normal turning. Thanks to the wording of lightbringer cleric, you now have 2x the turning attempts.

Cloistered Cleric domains are: knowledge (knowledge skills are class skills, cool), elf or war (bigger damage on your ranged weapon or PBS), and planning for extend spell. Go with human to get persistent spell and DMM: persist at level 1, though you can't really use it until level 3 when you take extra turning. Alternatively, hold off using DMM until level 6 when you pick up sacred exorcist, and get precise shot/rapid shot/zen archery, as needed.

At level 4, you can take a level of church inquisitor, getting the inquisiton domain. You can trade this out for knowledge devotion.

Cleric has the advantage of knowing way more spells that the archivist right off the bat. Archivist will have trouble getting access to spells, as it takes a great deal of time, a modest amount of gold, and a co-operative DM to fill your prayer book up with spells, much less spells from ranger and paladin spell lists.

[darksolitaire]

No-one has yet mentioned about the possibility of cleric dipping into prestige ranger. For the cost of two feats and slower spell advancement, he gains ranger spells and many shot bonus feat. Requires one domain to be animal, tough...:smallbiggrin:

[JKTrickster]

Well the idea is that while Archivists can "mix it up" can they be better Archers than Clerics can? Clerics have a lot of valuable domain powers and options from using Turn Undead.

How vital is DMM to an Archer build? The way I see it, having Archery feats is more important than having an extensive list of buffs - that seems more like gravy to me anyway. E.g. Knowledge Devotion fixes the attack bonus, great Ranger spells adds things from Damage to Hitting everyone in an area to Auto Hitting, etc.

EDIT: Also Clerics can pick up Point Blank, etc. much easier IMO cause they use domains to get around some of the feat options.

Sadly for both you still need a high Dex to get the nice feats.

Or can the Ranger spells "replace these feats?

[faceroll]

Well the idea is that while Archivists can "mix it up" can they be better Archers than Clerics can? Clerics have a lot of valuable domain powers and options from using Turn Undead.

How vital is DMM to an Archer build? The way I see it, having Archery feats is more important than having an extensive list of buffs - that seems more like gravy to me anyway. E.g. Knowledge Devotion fixes the attack bonus, great Ranger spells adds things from Damage to Hitting everyone in an area to Auto Hitting, etc.

DMM is paramount. It gets you full BAB, +10 to dexterity, and all sorts of crazy, juicy, awesome 1 round/ level spells to last all day. You know how spells are awesome because you only get to use them for like 1/10,000th of the day? Persist is basically like getting 10,000x as many spells as you should

[Keld Denar]

Cloistered Cleric 4/Church Inquisitor 1/Sacred Exorcist 1

Build is illegal. SacEx requires the ability to cast one of a specific set of 4th-5th level spells, minimum, to enter, meaning 7+ levels to get in. Early entry techniques don't work here, because of the specific spells needed.

[faceroll]

Build is illegal. SacEx requires the ability to cast one of a specific set of 4th-5th level spells, minimum, to enter, meaning 7+ levels to get in. Early entry techniques don't work here, because of the specific spells needed.

The real stickler's 10 ranks in Know:planes. Thanks for pointing that out. More cloistered cleric wouldn't be bad, as 6 skill pts/lvl is good for pumping up knowledge devotion.

[Optimator]

My problem with Zen Archery is that it doesn't change Dex prereqs. Sure, Rapid Shot only requires a 13 Dex, but (Greater) Manyshot requires 17 Dex. That kinda takes the SAD out of Zen Archery...

I can't imagine any Cleric archer taking Greater Manyshot in the first place.

[Curmudgeon]

I can't imagine any Cleric archer taking Greater Manyshot in the first place.
Perhaps not, but they would get some use out of Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot), which requires DEX 19. If you've got an ally who likes to grapple, it's nice to be able to hit the enemy they've got locked down instead of perforating your friend. :smallwink:

[Optimator]

Perhaps not, but they would get some use out of Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot), which requires DEX 19. If you've got an ally who likes to grapple, it's nice to be able to hit the enemy they've got locked down instead of perforating your friend. :smallwink:

Surely there's a spell or two, or perhaps a weapon (arrow?) enhancement to take care of such things. But point taken--Improved Precise Shot is pretty good.

[Curmudgeon]

Surely there's a spell or two, or perhaps a weapon (arrow?) enhancement to take care of such things.
Yes, seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) will change a 50% miss chance into a regular attack at the grappled enemy. But that's another +1 bonus cost, which is going to have to wait until your archer pays for splitting (+3 bonus cost), which is the most important bow enhancement to buy. So Improved Precise Shot is a good feat to take.

[JKTrickster]

Hmm just wondering. Without the ranger spells, is Archivist worth it anymore? besides Dread Secret, I think that's the only other thing it has going for it, right?

[Optimator]

Perhaps. Stacking Dark Knowledge and knowledge devotion is still possible. Cleric pulls ahead even further with that nerf, though.

[squeekenator]

Yes, seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) will change a 50% miss chance into a regular attack at the grappled enemy. But that's another +1 bonus cost, which is going to have to wait until your archer pays for splitting (+3 bonus cost), which is the most important bow enhancement to buy. So Improved Precise Shot is a good feat to take.

Eh. Seeking is situational enough that you can probably just throw it on some arrows rather than wasting thousands of gp putting it on your bow.

[dextercorvia]

Archivists can go Uurkrau Illuminan to help with their MAD. Bonus spells, to-hit, archery prereqs key off of Dex. Max spell level, saving throws, Knowledge skills key off Int.

[Curmudgeon]

Eh. Seeking is situational enough that you can probably just throw it on some arrows rather than wasting thousands of gp putting it on your bow.
I was thinking of it more for a usual scenario, for instance a Large+ Monk character whose standard operating procedure is to run up and grapple the biggest enemy in sight, then use Hide in Plain Sight to Hide.
You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). If the Monk Hides from the enemy they're grappling with, the enemy can't attack the Monk directly, but can only attack into their own square. And if the Monk's AC is higher, the enemy is fairly likely to miss the Monk and just damage their own self. :smallbiggrin:

I've seen a Monk/Shadowdancer be fairly effective in this way, but while they're good at locking the enemy down, external help for a fast kill is a good idea. If you use it in nearly all fights, Improved Precise Shot or seeking on your bow is good to have. Let the Monk grapple the big guy, then turn that pinned enemy into a pincushion.

[Elric VIII]

So, what would be a good PrC for a Cleric or Archivist archer?

The only one that I notice that isn't just one of the default powerful divine PrCs is the Seeker of the Misty Isle, which gives some extra skill points, Magic and Travel domains, and some bonuses on perception and other ranger-like things.

[Vangor]

Archivists can go Uurkrau Illuminan to help with their MAD. Bonus spells, to-hit, archery prereqs key off of Dex. Max spell level, saving throws, Knowledge skills key off Int.

Will reference Illumian Archivist with Uurkrau as well. Krau is a fantastic sigil itself, and receiving Uur is a nice buff as well as doubling the effect for both on second level. This not only replaces Zen Archery, which would take the bonus feat of the generally superior human, but provides additional armor (and reflex, but obviously without wis the will will take a hit) along with prerequisites. I also give dex to ranged damage for my players, so this can be an additional little advantage.