What does an Optmized Warblade do at lvls 8-12?

[Raendyn]

How does a Warblade look at lvl 8?

I am looking for a guy who throws much physical dmg, is able to hit, & able to shine. Holding his 2handed falchion! & has not much resourses to loose except from hit points!

Can you help me? I have never played ToB classes before, & even though i have read some of the book I am not the best guy around to create this guy.

thanks in advance!

[Keld Denar]

That depends a lot on what flavor Warblade you are looking at. Afterall, a controller Wizard looks rather different from a blaster Wizard. If you have a charger Warblade (Power Attack, Shocktrooper, Leap Attack, possibly Battle Jump), then most of your maneuvers will be boosts and counters, relying on massive damage from the feat combo to do the bulk of your dirty work. Key players here are Pouncing Charge, Dancing/Raging Mongoose, Bounding Assault, Sudden Leap, and any counters from Diamond Mind or Iron Heart that you can get. This is probably the HIGHEST damage Warblade concept you can piece together, but ends up being rather 1-dimensional (read: boring), and also rather fragile. A more strike oriented Warblade will probably be packing quite a few Diamond Mind maneuvers, a large 2handed weapon, probably with reach, and will generally be more concerned with strikes that have debuffs attached like Distrupting Blow or Dazing Strike. Then there's TWFing Stormguard Warblades, using Stormguard Warrior, Double Hit, and Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit to provoke lots of AoOs that result in horrific counterstrikes, assuming they survive. Oh, and then there's lockdown Warblades who often dip Crusader and maybe Fighter to pick up things like Improved Trip, Standstill, Thicket of Blades, and other lockdown abilities.

So yea...what KIND of Warblade are you talking about?

[Draz74]

Yeah ... since you're using a big two-handed weapon, assuming you don't want a Charging specialist (because they're boring and I don't like them), at these levels you're going to be using things like:


Pouncing Charge and/or Sudden Leap to move and still full attack
Emerald Razor to let you do massive Power Attack damage
Ruby Nightmare Blade to do massive damage anyway
Death from Above to do decent damage and also move around the battlefield a little
White Raven Tactics ... duh
possibly Iron Heart Focus and/or Lightning Recovery to get some good use out of your immediate actions by avoiding bad die rolls

[Raendyn]

ATM the DM has brought the party to it's knees by sending many encounters/mobs. they are all spellcasters. summoners & controlers.

So I want to try a physical dmg dealer that does not has expendable resources save for his HP which can be managed cause of persistend mass lesser vigor.

I want to be able to deal dmg, & keep enemies away from my precious casters!
But i like to focus on hitting when attacking, & killing when hitting.

Could some one point out a scaled build? LVL -8 or -9.

thanks:smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

You want a controller build? Or a caster "killer" build? What? Cause you can grab the whole Mageslayer line (or at least the good parts, Mageslayer and Pierce Magical Concealment). Then get a magic item that allows you to fly. With those two things, you should be able to solve 2 of the biggest issues with fighting a semi-optimized caster, getting TO the caster, and then hitthing him. Doesn't deal with Contingencies, but I can't really think of a way a Warblade COULD deal with a fully optimized caster with very carefully worded Contingencies.

[Midnight_v]

How does a Warblade look at lvl 8?

I am looking for a guy who throws much physical dmg, is able to hit, & able to shine. Holding his 2handed falchion! & has not much resourses to loose except from hit points!

Can you help me? I have never played ToB classes before, & even though i have read some of the book I am not the best guy around to create this guy.

thanks in advance!

I think I'm way less bias about charging than the above dudes.
Here I'm gonna link you to something. I hope its useful:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870630/Tome_of_Battle:_TricksCombosLibrary

In that thread there are links to other related things like the build compendium of the Tob etc.
Here's a pretty straight forward charging build from the the TOB build compendium. It's level 20 but it shows how it's build from every level so you just start at level 8 as shown and take what it tells you to take.
Here's my attempt at a Dwarven Warblade 20 build that I've just started using for a game (at Level 2/3 now). I'm trying a single class build for a change for this campaign.

Title: I don't know, Diamond Mind of Iron Tiger?
Race: Dwarf
Build Stub: Warblade 20
BAB: 20/15/10/5
Base Saves: 12/6/6 + Int to Reflex (Battle Clarity)

Feats
1. Power Attack
3. Improved Bull Rush
5. (Adaptive Style)
6. Shock Trooper
9. Leap Attack, (Iron Heart Aura)
12. Stormguard Warrior
13. (Combat Reflexes)
15. Martial Maneuver (Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip)
17. (Iron Will)
18. Martial Study (?)

Maneuvers
1. Steel Wind (IH), Sudden Leap (TC), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM)
2. Moment of Perfect Mind (DM)
3. Emerald Razor (DM)
5. Iron Heart Surge (IH)
6. Replace Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM) w/ White Raven Tactics (WR)
7. Death From Above (TC)
8. Replace Emerald Razor (DM) w/ Bounding Assault (DM)
9. Pouncing Charge (TC)
10. Replace Steel Wind (IH) w/ Mithral Tornado (IH)
11. Greater Insightful Strike (DM)
12. Replace Death From Above (TC) w/ Rabid Bear Strike (TC)
13. Avalanche of Blades (DM)
14. Replace Rabid Bear Strike (TC) w/ Swooping Dragon Strike (TC)
15. Diamond Nightmare Blade (DM), Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip (TC) - Martial Study
16. Replace Mithral Tornado (IH) w/ Adamantine Hurricane (IH)
17. Time Stands Still (DM)
19. Feral Death Strike (TC)

Stances
1. Leading the Charge (WR)
4. Absolute Steel Stance (IH) (My DM's letting me take the stance at 5th level) or Bolstering Voice (WR) when going strictly by the rule.
10. Dancing Blade Forms (IH) or Leaping Dragon Stance (TC)
16. Supreme Blade Parry (IH)

Let me know what you guys think of it, especially on maneuver progressions. I need to fix the feat progression since I forgot that Adaptive Style isn't one of Warblade bonus feats.

Also, instead of Imp. Bull Rush -> Shock Trooper, I was originally thinking of going Imp. Sunder -> Combat Brute while utilizing Stone Dragon maneuvers, but this idea was nixed due to the campaign setting (i.e., won't always have the ground to stand on). I'm not sure how useful Shock Trooper will be for this build. Good luck and happy gaming. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You'll probably want to dip two levels in another class before taking Warblade 4 so you can get a 3rd level stance, and a 6th level stance at Warblade 10, and an 8th level stance at Warblade 16. For that two level dip I'd pick Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2 for dealing damage, get the Lion spiritual totem ACF in CC to get Pounce instead of Fast Movement, and use Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) instead of the standard Rage. Take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), and get EWP for a Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Falchion for 18-20/x4 crits. Go Human with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Shaky and Vulnerable) and get Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, EWP: Kaorti Resin Falchion, Extra Rage, Knock-Down, Shock Trooper, and pick up Leap Attack at 9th level. Your Warblade 5 bonus feat should be Ironheart Aura, since your own character benefits from it as per the PHB definition of 'ally' (p304).

That's Human, Warblade 1/ Wolf Totem Lion Spirit Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/ Warblade 6+, your stances should be Hunter's Sense and Absolute Steel Stance. Your maneuvers should be Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Battle Leader's Charge, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, and Mithral Tornado. Note that the prerequisites to learn a maneuver, i.e. other maneuvers of that discipline, only need to be met on learning that maneuver, and stances count as maneuvers of their discipline for those prerequisites. You'll want to use Battle Leader's Charge with Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack, plus Pounce and Whirling Frenzy, to obliterate whoever you charge, then you can White Raven Tactics on yourself and take another turn. On your second turn you full attack or charge again, and spend a swift action to recover all of your maneuvers. Repeat every round until nothing is left. Do not initiate any maneuvers on the round you gain from White Raven Tactics, so that you can recover your maneuvers and use it to take two turns again the next round. Yes, White Raven Tactics can target yourself, again see the PHB definition of 'ally' (p304).

Starting at 8th level your items should be a +1 Keen Kaorti Resin Falchion, +1 Mithral Breastplate, a Healing Belt, Armbands of Might, a +1 Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Sustenance, Gauntlets of Strength +2, and you'll have 900 gp left over from standard WBL for some miscellaneous potions and mundane equipment. Get some spare weapons, such as masterwork armor spikes, some javelins, and a masterwork morningstar for if you need to deal bludgeoning or piercing damage.

[Essence_of_War]

You'll probably want to dip two levels in another class before taking Warblade 4 so you can get a 3rd level stance, and a 6th level stance at Warblade 10, and an 8th level stance at Warblade 16. For that two level dip I'd pick Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) 2 for dealing damage, get the Lion spiritual totem ACF in CC to get Pounce instead of Fast Movement

I would also suggest that 2 level dips in Cleric, Fighter, and OA Samurai can be extremely good also. I'm a huge fan of DM maneuvers like Emerald Razor (full power attack, resolve as a touch attack? Don't mind if I do!) and the Nightmare Blade lines.

[Draz74]

You'll probably want to dip two levels in another class before taking Warblade 4 so you can get a 3rd level stance, and a 6th level stance at Warblade 10, and an 8th level stance at Warblade 16.
Here's the thing, though:

At Warblade 4, the dip does indeed allow you to take a Level 3 Stance instead of a Level 1 Stance. However, the Level 3 Stances mostly suck. Arguably, there are at least three Level 1 Stances that are better than any of the Level 3 Stances for any given build.
At Warblade 10, the dip does indeed allow you to take a Level 6 Stance instead of a Level 5 Stance. However, no Level 6 Stances exist (at least in Warblade disciplines).
At Warblade 16, you can take a Level 8 Stance regardless of whether you took a dip or not.

So the dip isn't a terrible idea, thanks to the first of these bullet points. But it's far from necessary.


EWP for a Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) Falchion for 18-20/x4 crits. Go Human with two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (Shaky and Vulnerable) and get Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, EWP: Kaorti Resin Falchion, Extra Rage, Knock-Down, Shock Trooper, and pick up Leap Attack at 9th level. Your Warblade 5 bonus feat should be Ironheart Aura, since your own character benefits from it as per the PHB definition of 'ally' (p304).

Ewww, too cheesy for my taste. (Even if the stacking Barbarian variants don't bother your DM, he'll likely ban Flaws and Kaorti weapons.)

[Runestar]

A 8th lv warblade can ready 4 maneuvers of up to 4th lv. I would typically have him choose ruby nightmare blade and either insightful strike or stonehammer (whatever that 3rd lv +4d6 damage stone dragon maneuver is called) for damage, moment of precise mind as a hedge against mind-affecting effects like frightful presence, and another utility move like white raven tactics (to buff the party barb/fighter), iron heart surge (to get rid of debilitating effects), wall of blades (vs ranged touch) or more damage.

By now, he should have a +2 weapon, so try to get discipline property for an additional +3 to-hit.

At these levels, the warblade isn't really about massive damage dealing, but more about options/versatility and staying power. At least, that is how I would build my warblade, to shore up the traditional weaknesses of a fighter so my play experience isn't as frustrating. :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

A 8th lv warblade can ready 4 maneuvers of up to 4th lv. I would typically have him choose ruby nightmare blade and either insightful strike or stonehammer (whatever that 3rd lv +4d6 damage stone dragon maneuver is called) for damage, moment of precise mind as a hedge against mind-affecting effects like frightful presence, and another utility move like white raven tactics (to buff the party barb/fighter), iron heart surge (to get rid of debilitating effects), wall of blades (vs ranged touch) or more damage.

Mountain Hammer is 2nd level and only does +2d6. It overcomes DR and acts like a really loud lockpick, though.

[Keld Denar]

I'm thinking he was thinking Bonecrusher?

[Shreaver]

At the same time, it's important to pick maneuvers which you know will still be useful in the long run. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is completely unimportant, in my opinion. There are Level 8 stances which seem appalling to me, as well. I don't like Supreme Parry Blade, for example.

I'm still learning, in fact I have my own thread concerning what dips to go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210501) I have been advised to go the Wolf Totem/Lion Spirit Barbarian path, as well.

I will be watching this thread, maybe we can help each other!

[Draz74]

I'm thinking he was thinking Bonecrusher?
Or Death from Above? It's a different discipline, but it does +4d6 damage and it's awesome at Levels 7-8.


At the same time, it's important to pick maneuvers which you know will still be useful in the long run. Sapphire Nightmare Blade is completely unimportant, in my opinion. There are Level 8 stances which seem appalling to me, as well. I don't like Supreme Parry Blade, for example.

SNB isn't too bad; it's a good prereq, and you can swap it out when it becomes too pathetic to use.

The Supreme Parry stance is horrid, though. You're right about that. The L8 White Raven and Stone Dragon stances are pretty sad, too. Stance of Alacrity is the best high-level stance, followed by the Tiger Claw options.

[Shreaver]

Or Death from Above? It's a different discipline, but it does +4d6 damage and it's awesome at Levels 7-8.



SNB isn't too bad; it's a good prereq, and you can swap it out when it becomes too pathetic to use.

The Supreme Parry stance is horrid, though. You're right about that. The L8 White Raven and Stone Dragon stances are pretty sad, too. Stance of Alacrity is the best high-level stance, followed by the Tiger Claw options.

I suppose, but I reckon that in the first three level of Warblade, there are better options than SNB. Still, you do need two maneuvers in order to take Emerald Razor... I suppose that could be used to swap it out, assuming you don't dip into other martial classes.

For a while, though, I was playing around the idea of dipping into Swordsage and picking up Emerald Razor as one of my maneuvers. In an encounter, you would obviously exhaust that maneuver instantly, but there are are so many other combos you could perform. I think that a charging warblade is very satisfying.

[TehLivingDeath]

Or Death from Above? It's a different discipline, but it does +4d6 damage and it's awesome at Levels 7-8.



SNB isn't too bad; it's a good prereq, and you can swap it out when it becomes too pathetic to use.

The Supreme Parry stance is horrid, though. You're right about that. The L8 White Raven and Stone Dragon stances are pretty sad, too. Stance of Alacrity is the best high-level stance, followed by the Tiger Claw options.

Barring specific builds like crit fishing with double kukris and Blood in the Water, Stance of Alacrity should ALWAYS be the default stance for a general purpose Warblade. It's just too good to pass on. Other stances should only be looked at for specific encounters (like if you know you won't need counters) or after level 20.

This is all, of course, my opinion.

[Shreaver]

Barring specific builds like crit fishing with double kukris and Blood in the Water, Stance of Alacrity should ALWAYS be the default stance for a general purpose Warblade. It's just too good to pass on. Other stances should only be looked at for specific encounters (like if you know you won't need counters) or after level 20.

This is all, of course, my opinion.

Lol, I see more utility in Hunter's Sense. Plus, come on! You get to sniff out your enemies, lol!

It's useful in my game because we face a lot of undead...and sheesh! They stink so bad.