(3.5) The Skinwalker (Base Class) [PEACH]

[Lyndworm]

I've been thinking about making a shape-shifting class for quite a while now, but I couldn't think of a way to allow it both freedom to become just about anything and balance it mechanically. Well, I still can't. However, I recently came across Pyromancer999's Skin-Walker template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210422), and he did.. It had such an ingenious method of acquiring new shapes that I just had to have it. So, I asked him about it and he said that, yes, I could indeed make a new Base class based on his template. So, I pretty much just slammed it into the Master of Many Forms, tacked a thematic spell list, and called it done. Without further adieu I present...



The Skinwalker

Hit Dice: d8
Starting Age: Complex
Starting Gold: 2d4x10 (50gp)



Level

BAB

Fort

Ref

Will

Special

0th

1st

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th


1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
1st Practiced Form, Skinwalking 3/day (Animals)
2
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Predator's Cunning
3
0
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
+2
+1
+1
+3
Skinwalking 5/day (Vermin)
3
1
-
-
-
-
-


4th
+3
+1
+1
+4
Detect Thoughts
3
2
0
-
-
-
-


5th
+3
+1
+1
+4
2nd Practiced Form, Skinwalking (Humanoids)
3
3
1
-
-
-
-


6th
+4
+2
+2
+5
Skinwalking 7/day
3
3
2
-
-
-
-


7th
+5
+2
+2
+5
Frightful Presence, Skinwalking (Giants)
3
3
2
0
-
-
-


8th
+6/+1
+2
+2
+6
Improved Detect Thoughts, Shifter's Speech
3
3
3Improved Detect Thoughts, Shifter's Speech
1
-
-
-


9th
+6/+1
+3
+3
+6
Skinwalking 9/day (Monstrous Humanoids)
3
3
3
2
-
-
-


10th
+7/+2
+3
+3
+7
3rd Practiced Form, Improved Skinwalking
3
3
3
2
0
-
-


11th
+8/+3
+3
+3
+7
Skinwalking (Magical Beasts)
3
3
3
3
1
-
-


12th
+9/+4
+4
+4
+8
Greater Detect Thoughts, Skinwalking 11/day
3
3
3
3
2
-
-


13th
+9/+4
+4
+4
+8
Skinwalking (Fey)
3
3
3
3
2
0
-


14th
+10/+5
+4
+4
+9
Improved Frightful Presence
4
3
3
3
3
1
-


15th
+11/+6/+1
+5
+5
+9
4th Practiced Form, Skinwalking 13/day (Aberrations)
4
4
3
3
3
2
-


16th
+12/+7/+2
+5
+5
+10
Superior Detect Thoughts
4
4
4
3
3
2
0


17th
+12/+7/+2
+6
+6
+10
Skinwalking (Plants)
4
4
4
4
3
3
1


18th
+13/+8/+3
+6
+6
+11
Skinwalking 15/day
4
4
4
4
4
3
2


19th
+14/+9/+4
+6
+6
+11
Skinwalking (Dragons)
4
4
4
4
4
4
3


20th
+15/+10/+5
+6
+6
+12
5th Practiced Form, Evershifting Form, Skinwalking ∞/day, Telepathy
4
4
4
4
4
4
4


Skills: 4+Int modifier at each level. (4+Int mod)x4 at first level.
Skill List: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str) Knowledge (All, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Skinwalkers are proficient with simple weapons and all natural weapons they acquire through Skinwalking. They are also proficient with light armor.


Skinwalker Class Features:

Spellcasting:
A Skinwalker casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Skinwalker spell list. It can cast any spell it knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a Skinwalker must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Skinwlaker’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Skinwalker’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Skinwalker can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Its base daily spell allotment is given above. In addition, the Skinwalker receives bonus spells per day if it has a high Charisma score. When The table below indicates that the Skinwalker gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, it gains only the bonus spells it would be entitled to based on its Charisma score for that spell level.

The Skinwalker’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A Skinwalker begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new Skinwalker levels, it gains one or more new spells, as indicated on the below table. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Skinwalker knows is not affected by its Charisma score; the numbers on the below table are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third Skinwalker level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a Skinwalker can choose to learn a new spell in place of one it already knows. In effect, the Skinwalker "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Skinwalker spell the Skinwalker can cast. A Skinwalker may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that it gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a Skinwalker need not prepare its spells in advance. The Skinwalker can cast any spell that it knows at any time, assuming it has not yet used up its allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Spells Known:



Level

0th

1st

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th


1st
4
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
5
21
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
6
3
-
-
-
-
-


4th
6
3
21
-
-
-
-


5th
6
4
3
-
-
-
-


6th
6
4
3
-
-
-
-


7th
6
4
4
21
-
-
-


8th
6
4
4
3
-
-
-


9th
6
4
4
3
-
-
-


10th
6
4
4
4
21
-
-


11th
6
4
4
4
4
3
-


12th
6
4
4
4
4-
3
-


13th
6
4
4
4
4
21
-


14th
6
4
4
4
4
3
-


15th
6
4
4
4
4
3
-


16th
6
5
4
4
4
4
21


17th
6
5
5
4
4
4
3


18th
6
5
5
5
4
4
3


19th
6
5
5
5
5
4
4


20th
6
5
5
5
5
5
5


1 Provided the Skinwalker has a high enough Charisma score to have a bonus spell of this level.

Skinwalking (Su):
So long as he has an animal's pelt, feathers, carapace, or other skin-like covering, a Skinwalker may use an effect similar to Wildshape, except that he turns into the creature whose pelt he is wearing, and the effects last until he wishes for them to end. The focus item used must be either a full pelt or a cloak-like size item of clothing, whichever is smaller. The pelt used must come from a dead creature for the magics involved to take hold.

Harvesting a pelt requires a successful Survival check (DC 10 + the creature's HD). If the Skinwalker fails this check, he may try again at a -2 penalty, and again at a -4 penalty, and so on. Each failure results in a somewhat shabbier pelt, and a shabby pelt results in a shabby disguise. Although this has no effect on the statistics of the form, its appearance first becomes generic and nondescript and then begins deteriorating. A Skinwalker with a particularly bad pelt may even be confused for an Undead creature of sorts. Only a success on the very first Survival attempt results in an exact duplicate of the original creature. It takes one hour to magically cure a pelt in this fashion.

This ability can be used as a full-round action a number of times per day as shown on the table above. At 1st level the Skinwalker may only become creatures of the Animal type, but as more levels are gained more creature types become available, as shown on the above table. The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the Skinwalker's class level.

A Skinwalker starting at a level higher than first may, at the DM's discretion, begin play with some skins already in his possession. For every level after first the Skinwalker starts with 1d3 pelts. One pelt per die roll is considered to be of excellent quality (Survival check succeeded on first try; exact copy of creature), while the rest are merely average (Survival check succeeded on second try; generic copy of creature). For example, Ahiga is beginning play as a 6th level Skinwalker. This means that Ahiga starts with 5d3 pelts, 5 of which are in excellent condition. These skins can be from any creature of any type to which Ahiga has access through his Skinwalking ability, but Ahiga must discuss with his DM whether or not his choices are campaign-appropriate.


Practiced Form (Su):
If a Skinwalker assumes a certain form often enough, he may assume its form without a skin. A Skinwalker may have a number of remembered forms as shown on the table above. Once a form is chosen, it may be changed by spending a full day in the guise of the creature to replace it.


Predator's Cunning (Ex):
At 2nd level a Skinwalker's knowledge of its prey increases. He gains a +2 bonus to any two Knowledge skills and a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks.


Detect Thoughts (Sp):
At 4th level, a Skinwalker can listen in on his victim's thoughts, learning their fears. The Skinwalker gains the ability to use detect thoughts at will as a spell-like ability, with a caster level equal to the his class level (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha modifier).


Frightful Presence (Su):
At 7th level, a Skinwalker becomes a truly terrifying sight. All creatures within 30ft of the Skinwalker when he takes a particularly dramatic action (such as attacking, charging, roaring, etc) must make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha modifier). On a failure, they become shaken (if possessing up to 2 more HD than the Skinwalker) or frightened (if possessing more than 2 HD less than the Skinwalker). A creature that succeeds on its Will save is immune to the Skinwalker's Frightful Presence for 24 hours. This is a Mind-Affecting Fear effect, and does not stack with itself (though it does stack with other Fear effects).


Improved Detect Thoughts (Sp):
At 8th level, a Skinwalker's talent at learning his victim's thoughts improves. The Skinwalker may use his detect thoughts spell-like ability as a Swift action, and maintaining concentration on the SLA takes only a Swift action.


Shifter's Speech (Su):
At 8th level, a Skinwalker maintains the ability to speak normally (including verbal components of spells) regardless of the skin he wears. Furthermore, he can communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in another form, as long as such creatures are normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods.


Improved Skinwalking (Su):
At 10th level, a Skinwalker gains the Extraordinary and Supernatural special qualities of any form assumed with the Skinwalking ability. This ability does not grant the use of Spell-Like abilities or any other form of innate spellcasting, such as that found in True dragons and nymphs.


Greater Detect Thoughts (Su):
At 12th level, a Skinwalker's talent at learning his victim's thoughts improves even further. When a Skinwalker uses his detect thoughts Spell-like ability, he may choose to detects thoughts in a 60ft sphere centered on himself, rather than in a cone-shaped emanation.


Improved Frightful Presence (Su):
At 14th level a Skinwalker becomes an even more terrible sight. All creatures within 30ft of the Skinwalker when he takes a particularly dramatic action (such as attacking, charging, roaring, etc) must make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha modifier). On a failure, they become shaken (if possessing 3 or more HD than the Skinwalker), frightened (if possessing up to 2 more HD than the Skinwalker), or panicked (if possessing more than 2 HD less than the Skinwalker). A creature that succeeds on its Will save is immune to the Skinwalker's Frightful Presence for 24 hours. This is a Mind-Affecting Fear effect, and does not stack with itself (though it does stack with other Fear effects). This ablity replaces te Skinwwalker's Frightful Presence ability.


Superior Detect Thoughts (Su):
At 16th level, a Skinwalker's talent at learning his victim's thoughts become second nature to him. The 1st round ability of detect thoughts is always active, and the Skinwalker may switch between a cone-shaped emanation and a 60ft sphere as a Standard action. He must still spend a Swift action Concentrating in order to gain the benefits of the 2nd or 3rd round abilities, however.


Evershifting Form (Su):
At 20th level, a Skinwalker has reached the pinnacle of shapechanging abilities. He gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes immune to any unwanted transmutation effect. In addition, the Skinwalker no longer takes ability penalties for aging and is not subject to magical aging, though any aging penalties already taken remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the Skinwalker still dies of old age.


Telepathy (Sp):
At 20th level, a Skinwalker can insert thoughts into the mind of his victims. To do so, he must first be reading their mind with his detect thoughts Spell-like ability; after the Skinwalker is inside, he may begin comunicating with them telepathically, much like the lesserer telepathic bond spell. Unlike that spell, this ability allows the Skinwalker to telepathically speak to an unwilling creature.


Spell List:
Zeroth Level Spells:
Dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, know direction, light, Mage hand, read magic, resistance

First Level Spells:
Accelerated movement, bane, breath of the jungle, camouflage, cause fear, claws of the bear, comprehend languages, deathwatch, detect snares & pits, doom, ebon eyes, endure elements, entropic shield, expeditious retreat, feather fall, greater mage hand, jump, magic fang, longstrider, shock & awe, silent image, swift expeditious retreat, swift invisibility, undetectable alignment, ventriloquism

Second Level Spells:
Align fang, barkskin, bear's endurance, blindness/deafness, blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, circle dance, curse of ill fortune, curse of impending blades, darkness, death knell, decomposition, easy trail, greater alarm, invisibility, lesser confusion, mark of the outcast, minor image, pass without trace, scare, shatter, silence, surefooted stride, tongues

Third Level Spells:
Blacklight, blindsight, blink, confusion, crushing despair, dispel magic, displacement, fear, forestfold, gaseous form, greater magic fang, haste, jagged tooth, major image, mass curse of impending blades, slow, snare, unluck, water walk

Fourth Level Spells:
Air walk, bestow curse, contagion, consumptive field, dimension door, dimensional anchor, greater blindsight, greater invisibility, greater resistance, lay of the land, locate creature, poison, sharptooth, superior magic fang

Fifth Level Spells:
Commune with nature, echo skull, greater blink, greater dispel magic, mass curse of ill fortune, nightmare, persistent image, shadow walk, slay living, wrack

Sixth Level Spells:
Eyebite, find the path, imperious glare, mass contagion, permanent image, superior resistance, wind walk

All spells not taken from the SRD are from the Spell Compendium.




Please evaluate and comment honestly.

[NeoSeraphi]

First of all, this is an interesting idea. I like it. Now on to the PEACH.

Frightening Presence usually activates on an attack or charge. It's relevant because it affects any of the creatures modifiers to hit you if you provoke an attack of opportunity while you're charging.

You're missing Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Plants, and Oozes as options. (Though I suppose Oozes don't have skin). If you're really trying to make this class work like Master of Many Forms, you should be able to change into most of its forms (I doubt this class would be able to change into Elementals, and yeah, probably not Oozes). I mean, if I'm a Skinwalker, and I get up on the Hydra's back, I'm gonna tear it down, cut its skin off and start breathing fire from my 12 mouths!

You should probably change the proficiency line from "all natural weapons they get through Wild Shape" to "all natural weapons they get through Skinwalking" as the skinwalker doesn't actually have the Wild Shape class feature.

I'm surprised this class doesn't have Handle Animal as a class feature. Seems appropriate, somehow.

Detect Thoughts allows a saving throw, and you didn't mention the DC for it in the Mind Reading ability. Also, it's not really explained why skinwalkers can read minds. I assume you're trying to draw some kind of connection to the doppleganger here, but...

[Shadow Lord]

How much does a body part of sufficient size cost for any given creature?

[Realms of Chaos]

I really like the concept of skinwalkers, I'll have to tell you.

I liked it back when I sawanother skinwalker class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173025). In fact, I loved it enough that I made a redux of said class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173480). The template you derived this class from is also awesome and this is another gallon of awesome for the bucket. Welcome to the skinwalker club. :smallwink:

[byaku rai]

What strikes me first is that there's no HD limit on what you can turn into, as long as you have the skin... So, for example, if you had a Storm Giant skin at level 6... See the problem? For that matter, how it's worded right now, when a level 20 Skinwalker turns back into that bear he used so much at first level, his hit points drop to what the bear's were. As a matter of fact, as it's worded right now it could be argued that you become a perfect duplicate of whatever you turn into, so if you killed and skinned the king of a country (after level 3... and ignoring for a moment how macabre it is that to become any sort of humanoid you have to wear its skin... :smalleek:) you could easily pose as said king for as long as you liked.

How much of an animal's "covering" do you need? For a human, would a handful of hair do it, or must you actually flay them and wear the full skin? For a dragon, would you be able to assume their form just by having a single scale from their body? If you only need a small part, can you Skinwalk as a creature that is still alive? (the same question applies if you need their full skin... But that's too gruesome to think about... :smalleek:). If the answer to that question is yes, why can't you just show up, grab a handful of fur from a creature, and turn into them right away?

Are extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like abilities inherited from the creature whose skin you stole, or are you just assuming their form? Do you get all mundane forms of attack, such as a bear's 2 claw attacks and a bite attack, or are things limited to the Skinwalker's attack bonuses? Does the Skinwalker keep his saves? His HP? His own supernatural/extraordinary abilities? His own stats? As written, it's "no" across the board, because you turn into a perfect replica of the creature (although it's fairly safe to assume you keep your own mental stats...)

Also, you should reconsider order of what you can turn into. Monstrous Humanoid should probably come before Giant, and no aberration I can think of is worth turning into at level 18. Singular vermin are just about worthless, and even swarms of them aren't all that great, especially at level 15.

Disclaimer: I think I know what you intended for this class. I'm just nitpicking at the details because in order to write 3.5 homebrew you have to have the mind of a lawyer, and close every possible loophole. Otherwise somebody will abuse what you've created. I don't mean to be harsh, although it has probably come across that way. :smallfrown: I really like the core idea... it just needs some lawyerly polishing to work the way you want it to.

For the dead levels, and even just spread throughout the class progression, I would suggest some sort of enhanced damage progression, so essentially a transformed Skinwalker would do more damage than their standard counterpart. Another good idea would be a Natural Armor progression, because as is, these guys are going to be really easy to hit. That raises another lawyer-y question: what happens to your gear when you transform? I'm assuming the same stuff as Wild Shape, but you need to specify.

EDIT: Ok, I missed the Supernatural Skinwalking class feature. :smallredface: However, it really needs to be placed much earlier in the class, and there's still no verdict on spell-like abilities.

[Lyndworm]

Wow. I'm seriously impressed that so many people put such serious thought into something I made. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Hopefully my responses will seem as well thought-out as yours were.


First of all, this is an interesting idea. I like it. Now on to the PEACH.

Frightening Presence usually activates on an attack or charge. It's relevant because it affects any of the creatures modifiers to hit you if you provoke an attack of opportunity while you're charging.
This Frightening Presence does activate on an attack. It says "All creatures within 30ft of the Skinwalker when it attacks must make a Will Save..." Should I try to make that more clear?

Forgive me, it's late. I realise now why that was a stupid thing to say. I'll make the change.


You're missing Magical Beasts, Outsiders, Plants, and Oozes as options. (Though I suppose Oozes don't have skin). If you're really trying to make this class work like Master of Many Forms, you should be able to change into most of its forms (I doubt this class would be able to change into Elementals, and yeah, probably not Oozes). I mean, if I'm a Skinwalker, and I get up on the Hydra's back, I'm gonna tear it down, cut its skin off and start breathing fire from my 12 mouths!
It was intentional that Oozes and Elementals were left out, and to a lesser degree Outsiders as well. They don't quite fit the visceral feel of tearing off a creature's skin and wearing it as your own, to me. The lack of Magical Beast forms was pure oversight on my part. Somehow I missed it when I was listing the creature types, because it should absolutely be in there, probably more than any other (save Animals).


You should probably change the proficiency line from "all natural weapons they get through Wild Shape" to "all natural weapons they get through Skinwalking" as the skinwalker doesn't actually have the Wild Shape class feature.
An oversight I will soon correct, thank you.


I'm surprised this class doesn't have Handle Animal as a class feature. Seems appropriate, somehow.
I considered adding it but ultimately decided against it. I don't remember why, but I think it had something to do with the otherworldly qualities generally associated with Skinwalkers. That and it seemed weird that you could make friends with a bear and then skin it for fun and profit. Maybe I should add it in; in retrospect that seems pretty cool.


Detect Thoughts allows a saving throw, and you didn't mention the DC for it in the Mind Reading ability. Also, it's not really explained why skinwalkers can read minds. I assume you're trying to draw some kind of connection to the doppleganger here, but...
The saving throw thing was yet another of my (apparently) many oversights. The reason Skinwalkers have the ability to read minds has to do with Native American legends, especially Navajo, I think.


How much does a body part of sufficient size cost for any given creature?
It does not have a listed cost for a reason. I don't want the Skinwalking ability to be part of the WBL system; it should be something entirely separate, a class feature in its own right. Ideally, the only way to get a good combat skin would be to kill a creature and take its skin. If you want to go out and buy something like that, that's between you and your DM. Only your DM knows how rare a hydra skin is, so it's up to him (or her) to decide what its price should be.


I really like the concept of skinwalkers, I'll have to tell you.

I liked it back when I sawanother skinwalker class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173025). In fact, I loved it enough that I made a redux of said class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173480). The template you derived this class from is also awesome and this is another gallon of awesome for the bucket. Welcome to the skinwalker club. :smallwink:
Thank you very much for your support. I've not quite got the time to look those over right now, but I seriously intend to do so at some point in the near future. Thank you for the links.


What strikes me first is that there's no HD limit on what you can turn into, as long as you have the skin... So, for example, if you had a Storm Giant skin at level 6... See the problem? For that matter, how it's worded right now, when a level 20 Skinwalker turns back into that bear he used so much at first level, his hit points drop to what the bear's were. As a matter of fact, as it's worded right now it could be argued that you become a perfect duplicate of whatever you turn into, so if you killed and skinned the king of a country (after level 3... and ignoring for a moment how macabre it is that to become any sort of humanoid you have to wear its skin... :smalleek:) you could easily pose as said king for as long as you liked.
It was meant to be that you were limited to your own HD when Skinwalking, like with Wildshape, but you have a point. That should be explicitly stated to avoid any confusion, and it is not.

Your second point is a tad murkier, but it still has sound, rules-lawyering, logic to back it up. I would think that the intention of the ability is obvious, but, again, it should probably be explicitly stated. Any ideas on more precise wording?

This brings us to the third of the above points. That sort of thing is actually something I imagined the class being able to do, and I don't really see where it's a big problem. If you have the Bluff check to pull it off, more power to you. Just stay away from anybody with true seeing. Besides, first you actually have to get to the king, kill him, and dispose of his flayed body without anybody noticing you were ever there. Not quite as easy as it seems at first glance, but I like the idea that it is possible.


How much of an animal's "covering" do you need? For a human, would a handful of hair do it, or must you actually flay them and wear the full skin? For a dragon, would you be able to assume their form just by having a single scale from their body? If you only need a small part, can you Skinwalk as a creature that is still alive? (the same question applies if you need their full skin... But that's too gruesome to think about... :smalleek:). If the answer to that question is yes, why can't you just show up, grab a handful of fur from a creature, and turn into them right away?
Very, very good questions. So good, in fact, that I'm not positive that I can adequately answer them right now. I'll give it a shot, though.

No matter the size of the animal, I can only imagine that you would need either the full skin or at least enough to make a cloak, whichever's larger. I don't like the idea of Skinwalking as a still-living creature, but technically you can do that right now. I would prefer that this not be the case, and wish to change it to be so. I'm thinking of something along the lines of "The pelt used must come from a dead creature for the magics involved to take hold." Any thoughts?


Are extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like abilities inherited from the creature whose skin you stole, or are you just assuming their form? Do you get all mundane forms of attack, such as a bear's 2 claw attacks and a bite attack, or are things limited to the Skinwalker's attack bonuses? Does the Skinwalker keep his saves? His HP? His own supernatural/extraordinary abilities? His own stats? As written, it's "no" across the board, because you turn into a perfect replica of the creature (although it's fairly safe to assume you keep your own mental stats...)
Well, it works like Wildshape so you do not get any Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like abilities until later on in the class (11th for Ex, 19th for Su). You do gain all mundane attacks, such as both claws and the bite from a bear. You do keep your own base saves but your physical Ability Scores (Str, Dex, and Con) change to match those of the creature into which you Skinwalked, so the end results will likely change for Fortitude and Reflex saves. I'm pretty sure that part, at least, is clear. I could be wrong though (it wouldn't be the first time).


Also, you should reconsider order of what you can turn into. Monstrous Humanoid should probably come before Giant, and no aberration I can think of is worth turning into at level 18. Singular vermin are just about worthless, and even swarms of them aren't all that great, especially at level 15.
The order comes straight from the Master of Many Forms prestige class. To be honest, it seemed a little wonky to me, too. However, I figured I'd keep it as written and see what the Playground had to say about it. Since the MoMF packs all of its abilities into ten levels, though, I fear I've made it even wonkier. I'll see what I can do about the type arrangement, since I need to switch it up to make room for the Magical Beast type. Any suggestions there (or anywhere, I suppose) would be greatly appreciated.


Disclaimer: I think I know what you intended for this class. I'm just nitpicking at the details because in order to write 3.5 homebrew you have to have the mind of a lawyer, and close every possible loophole. Otherwise somebody will abuse what you've created. I don't mean to be harsh, although it has probably come across that way. :smallfrown: I really like the core idea... it just needs some lawyerly polishing to work the way you want it to.
Please don't feel bad about what you've done here. Every word everyone has posted so far has helped either me or (hopefully, after this post) themselves. To me, that's a successful post. Thank you for taking the time to look at this at all, let alone make such a detailed post about it.


For the dead levels, and even just spread throughout the class progression, I would suggest some sort of enhanced damage progression, so essentially a transformed Skinwalker would do more damage than their standard counterpart. Another good idea would be a Natural Armor progression, because as is, these guys are going to be really easy to hit. That raises another lawyer-y question: what happens to your gear when you transform? I'm assuming the same stuff as Wild Shape, but you need to specify.
Enhanced damage isn't a bad thought, but I'm not sure how to set it apart from other damage-enhancers, like Precision damage. Besides, it just feels a little off to me, because a Skinwalker's best bet in combat would be to turn into something nasty and I'm not sure I want to add to that. We've all heard the druid-centered horror stories; with somebody buffing this guy do we really want him to have extra damage over and above what a bear can already inflict? What about a troll? Or (soon) even a 12-headed hydra? I'm not sure it's the best solution to the issues at hand, but it's certainly something to think about. If anyone has any comments on the matter, I may very well add in a damage progression.

I like the idea of a Natural Armor progression, but, again, I'm afraid that it would be overpowering. Nearly all of a Skinwalker's combat potential stems from the Skinwalking ability, which is essentially Wildshape. This means that you get the creature's NA bonus when you Skinwalk. Having an additional number on top of that may prove to be against the classes better interest. In their natural form, outfitted in Light armor and with (probably) poor physical ability scores, Skinwalkers will be fairly squishy. However, it's a full-round action to gain the stats of a bear, or a troll, or a hydra. That, to me, is a decent trade.

Since I specifically referenced Wildshape in the Skinwalking ability, do I need to specify what happens to gear? It seems obvious, to me, that it works as a slightly modified Wildshape with actually very, very few mechanical changes. Your gear melds into your new form and becomes non-functional.


EDIT: Ok, I missed the Supernatural Skinwalking class feature. :smallredface: However, it really needs to be placed much earlier in the class, and there's still no verdict on spell-like abilities.
I was afraid it might be in there too late... I'll see if I can't change it up a little.

SLAs are intentionally not mentioned because I didn't want them to be gained. I was thinking that with all of the other things this guy can do, that might be a bad idea. I'm not sure why I was thinking that, but I was. Do you (or anyone else, for that matter) think they should be gained at some point?




OK, after a little bit of tinkering I've got a slightly modified class for you all to examine. I've made many of the suggested changes, including a slight elaboration of the Skinwalking ability's wording, changing the creature types into which one can Skinwalk, changing the progression of abilities, and a few other small wording changes.

I've been toying with the idea of giving a small spell progression (likely the Bard's, but maybe Ranger/Paladin) with a custom list of spells, mostly Transmutation and Enchantment, maybe a little Necromancy. Any thoughts on this?

[NeoSeraphi]

Incidentally, as this is similar to the official Trophy Hunter feat, as well as some other class that I can't really remember at the moment, I'll suggest that you make an official DC for the Survival check required to skin the creature you want to wear. (I don't think you should make the characters lose the skin if they fail, after all, its hard enough to do this class without it, but perhaps you could invent some bonuses if you make your Survival check, since you would have damaged much less of the skin in the process. To help you answer the previous question, maybe if you succeed your Survival check, you can pass as the exact creature, while if you fail it, you only look like a generic version of the creature)

Now, you have Ex Skinwalking at a very, very low level. Before, when it was at 11th, that was fine, as MoMF gets it at 7th, which was as early as 12th level if you only took 5 levels of druid spellcasting. Let me give you some examples of what you'd be permitting the Skinwalker to do at 6th level, and I'll use CR appropriate monsters so that we can consider it an actual threat at 6th.

1) You can arbitrarily expend one of your daily uses of Skinwalking to gain any feat you qualify for, so you can solve many new situations or simply get better at something you need to get better at. Basically, you gain the Chameleon Prestige Class's floating bonus feat. (Prerequisite: Carrying Human Skin around. Benefit: Human's Ex Ability (Bonus Feat) )

2) You can become immune to non-fire and non-acid damage, as well as gaining regeneration 5, which lets you avoid death. At level 7. (Prerequisite: Skinning a Troll, Skinwalking (Giant), comes at level 7. Benefit: Troll's Ex Ability (Regeneration 5).

3) You can become immune to mind-affecting abilities, arguably. (IIRC, the vermin's mindless trait is an extraordinary ability)

I'm not saying Ex Skinwalking isn't a great ability. It is. But gaining the bonus feats, damage reduction, regeneration, fast healing, and immunities of whatever you wear at level 6 is a bit much.

[Lyndworm]

Incidentally, as this is similar to the official Trophy Hunter feat, as well as some other class that I can't really remember at the moment, I'll suggest that you make an official DC for the Survival check required to skin the creature you want to wear. (I don't think you should make the characters lose the skin if they fail, after all, its hard enough to do this class without it, but perhaps you could invent some bonuses if you make your Survival check, since you would have damaged much less of the skin in the process. To help you answer the previous question, maybe if you succeed your Survival check, you can pass as the exact creature, while if you fail it, you only look like a generic version of the creature)
I remember that feat... I can definitely see how they're similar. Requiring a skill check is something I've been thinking about (though I was leaning towards Craft: Fetisht or something to that effect rather than Survival, but I'll try Survival out first) and liking more and more. Now that someone else has mentioned it, especially someone with such a good grasp of the rules as yourself, I'll certainly see what I can do about it.

Edit:
I've added the following paragraph to the Skinwalking entry:

Harvesting a pelt requires a successful Survival check (DC 10 + the creature's HD). If the Skinwalker fails this check, it may try again at a -2 penalty, and again at a -4 penalty, and so on. Each failure results in a somewhat shabbier pelt, and a shabby pelt results in a shabby disguise. Although this has no effect on the statistics of the form, its appearance first becomes generic and nondescript and then begins deteriorating. A Skinwalker with a particularly bad pelt may even be confused for an Undead creature of sorts. Only a success on the very first Survival attempt results in an exact duplicate of the original creature. It takes one hour to magically cure a pelt in this fashion.


Now, you have Ex Skinwalking at a very, very low level. Before, when it was at 11th, that was fine, as MoMF gets it at 7th, which was as early as 12th level if you only took 5 levels of druid spellcasting. Let me give you some examples of what you'd be permitting the Skinwalker to do at 6th level, and I'll use CR appropriate monsters so that we can consider it an actual threat at 6th.
I was afraid that 6th was too low, it's good to get some input on that.


1) You can arbitrarily expend one of your daily uses of Skinwalking to gain any feat you qualify for, so you can solve many new situations or simply get better at something you need to get better at. Basically, you gain the Chameleon Prestige Class's floating bonus feat. (Prerequisite: Carrying Human Skin around. Benefit: Human's Ex Ability (Bonus Feat) )
This is totally true, but it requires you to be in human form and probably doesn't work if you're already a human. I'm not sure that that's not OK at 6th level, but it'll definitely be OK later. A decent reason to move it back a bit.


2) You can become immune to non-fire and non-acid damage, as well as gaining regeneration 5, which lets you avoid death. At level 7. (Prerequisite: Skinning a Troll, Skinwalking (Giant), comes at level 7. Benefit: Troll's Ex Ability (Regeneration 5).
Yeah, that one's not OK... For some reason hadn't realized trolls came quite that early in the game (probably because I made the edits past 2:00 AM). The ability's definitely getting pushed back, now.


3) You can become immune to mind-affecting abilities, arguably. (IIRC, the vermin's mindless trait is an extraordinary ability)
I don't think that one works, since it's dependent on type and your type doesn't change, but I could be wrong. Byaku Rai would probably know.


I'm not saying Ex Skinwalking isn't a great ability. It is. But gaining the bonus feats, damage reduction, regeneration, fast healing, and immunities of whatever you wear at level 6 is a bit much.
It should probably be noted that you can't do all of that at the same time, but I agree that, in retrospect, it seems a bit extreme. I'm going to push it back to 10th level, with Supernatural Skinwalking at 15th. That sounds a bit more intelligent to me.

[byaku rai]

Don't have enough time for a full post right now, but:

1. How does having a really shabby pelt affect your Remembered form of that creature?

2. The vermin mind-affecting immunity thing is because of its type, so a skinwalker can't gain it. :smallfrown:

EDIT: One more thought. A rat is a vermin. so... 3 level dip, and the rest of the levels in a full caster progression class, and you can very easily be a Tiny or smaller full caster without LA.

On a slightly unrelated note, bard spellcasting progression with select spells sounds good. Just beware of housefly skinwalkers ruining your day.

[NeoSeraphi]

It should probably be noted that you can't do all of that at the same time, but I agree that, in retrospect, it seems a bit extreme. I'm going to push it back to 10th level, with Supernatural Skinwalking at 15th. That sounds a bit more intelligent to me.

And see, there you go. You're already rewarding a player who chose this over Master of Many Forms by giving it 2 levels earlier, but you're still balancing it out.

I don't think Supernatural Skinwalking needs to be delayed that far, however. Most really powerful supernatural qualities are found in the Outsider types, and you can't become those. Off the top of my head, the only supernatural quality I can think of that isn't exclusively outsider or undead is DR/Alignment, and I'm not even sure that goes with anything the Skinwalker can become.

[Lyndworm]

Don't have enough time for a full post right now, but:
That's fine; you've done more than enough so far. Your help is invaluable.


1. How does having a really shabby pelt affect your Remembered form of that creature?
I hadn't really given it much thought. I imagine that you'd simply remember a shabby form of the creature.


2. The vermin mind-affecting immunity thing is because of its type, so a skinwalker can't gain it. :smallfrown:
I thought so, thank you.


EDIT: One more thought. A rat is a vermin. so... 3 level dip, and the rest of the levels in a full caster progression class, and you can very easily be a Tiny or smaller full caster without LA.
Actually, a rat is an Animal so you can do that at level 1. However, you need to spend at least one feat (Surrogate Spellcasting) to be able to cast in that form or take seven more levels of Skinwalker. I'm not sure that this is totally balanced, but it doesn't seem incredibly broken to me.


On a slightly unrelated note, bard spellcasting progression with select spells sounds good. Just beware of housefly skinwalkers ruining your day.
Thanks for the input. I'll start putting together a list of spells soon.


And see, there you go. You're already rewarding a player who chose this over Master of Many Forms by giving it 2 levels earlier, but you're still balancing it out.
Thank you. I'm glad to know that it's feasible.


I don't think Supernatural Skinwalking needs to be delayed that far, however. Most really powerful supernatural qualities are found in the Outsider types, and you can't become those. Off the top of my head, the only supernatural quality I can think of that isn't exclusively outsider or undead is DR/Alignment, and I'm not even sure that goes with anything the Skinwalker can become.
Do you think I should roll it into one ability with Extraordinary Skinwalking? It seems strange to me to give two separate abilities that are so similar so close together (at, say, 10th and 12th). Maybe just both at 10th? Pretty much the only thing you'd gain would be breath weapons and a few very specific monster's abilities (like a blink dog's Blink and Dimension Door or a medusa's Petrifying Gaze). Would giving access to these at 10th be overpowering?

[NeoSeraphi]

Do you think I should roll it into one ability with Extraordinary Skinwalking? It seems strange to me to give two separate abilities that are so similar so close together (at, say, 10th and 12th). Maybe just both at 10th? Pretty much the only thing you'd gain would be breath weapons and a few very specific monster's abilities (like a blink dog's Blink and Dimension Door or a medusa's Petrifying Gaze). Would giving access to these at 10th be overpowering?

Petrifying Gaze is a supernatural attack, not a supernatural quality. Your Supernatural ability doesn't grant that, which is why I'm not worried about it being too powerful. It doesn't grant a beholder's eye rays or a dragon's breath, but a blink dog's blink and dimension door do qualify.

[Lyndworm]

Petrifying Gaze is a supernatural attack, not a supernatural quality. Your Supernatural ability doesn't grant that, which is why I'm not worried about it being too powerful. It doesn't grant a beholder's eye rays or a dragon's breath, but a blink dog's blink and dimension door do qualify.
Oh, good. I had forgotten about some of that at some point (though I distinctly remember knowing that earlier...). I'll go ahead and roll them together.

[Lyndworm]

Concerning a spell progression:
I've been going through the SRD and Spell Compendium looking for appropriate spells and... Well, this is harder than I thought it would be, to be honest. Spells that cause fear and illusions are must-haves, but I'm having trouble picking stuff out after that. So many things look so shiny... I'm seriously afraid to overpower the Skinwalker, since he already has some really powerful abilities. I've drawn primarily from the bard and druid with some sorcerer/wizard spells thrown in. I'm extremely open to suggestion regarding the spell list and spell placement, and I'm not sure how I feel about it, but here's what I've got so far:

Zeroth Level Spells: - 9
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Know Direction, Light, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Resistance

First Level Spells: - 25
Accelerated Movement, Bane, Breath of the Jungle, Camouflage, Cause Fear, Claws of the Bear, Comprehend Languages, Deathwatch, Detect Snares and Pits, Doom, Ebon Eyes, Endure Elements, Entropic Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Greater Mage Hand, Jump, Magic Fang, Longstrider, Shock and Awe, Silent Image, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Invisibility, Undetectable Alignment, Ventriloquism

Second Level Spells: - 25
Align Fang, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Circle Dance, Curse of Ill Fortune, Curse of Impending Blades, Darkness, Death Knell, Decomposition, Easy Trail, Greater Alarm, Invisibility, Lesser Confusion, Mark of the Outcast, Minor Image, Pass without Trace, Scare, Shatter, Silence, Surefooted Stride, Tongues

Third Level Spells: - 19
Blacklight, Blindsight, Blink, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fear, Forestfold, Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Fang, Haste, Jagged Tooth, Major Image, Mass Curse of Impending Blades, Slow, Snare, Unluck, Water Walk

Fourth Level Spells: - 15
Air Walk, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Consumptive Field, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Blindsight, Greater Blindsight, Greater Invisibility, Greater Resistance, Lay of the Land, Locate Creature, Poison, Sharptooth, Superior Magic Fang

Fifth Level Spells: - 10
Commune with Nature, Echo Skull, Greater Blink, Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Curse of Ill Fortune, Nightmare, Persistent Image, Shadow Walk, Slay Living, Wrack

Sixth Level Spells: - 7
Eyebite, Find the Path, Imperious Glare, Mass Contagion, Permanent Image, Superior Resistance, Wind Walk



All spells not taken from the SRD are from the Spell Compendium.
Now, should the Skinwalker be Arcane or Divine? I'm leaning towards Divine, myself, but, as always, I'm open to suggestion.

[Pyromancer999]

Concerning a spell progression:
I've been going through the SRD and Spell Compendium looking for appropriate spells and... Well, this is harder than I thought it would be, to be honest. Spells that cause fear and illusions are must-haves, but I'm having trouble picking stuff out after that. So many things look so shiny... I'm seriously afraid to overpower the Skinwalker, since he already has some really powerful abilities. I've drawn primarily from the bard and druid with some sorcerer/wizard spells thrown in. I'm extremely open to suggestion regarding the spell list and spell placement, and I'm not sure how I feel about it, but here's what I've got so far:

Zeroth Level Spells: - 8
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Know Direction, Light, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Resistance

First Level Spells: - 19
Accelerated Movement, Breath of the Jungle, Camouflage, Cause Fear, Claws of the Bear, Detect Snares and Pits, Endure Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Greater Mage Hand, Jump, Magic Fang, Longstrider, Shock and Awe, Silent Image, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Swift Invisibility, Undetectable Alignment, Ventriloquism

Second Level Spells: - 21
Align Fang, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Circle Dance, Curse of Impending Blades, Darkness, Decomposition, Easy Trail, Greater Alarm, Invisibility, Lesser Confusion, Minor Image, Pass without Trace, Scare, Silence, Surefooted Stride, Tongues

Third Level Spells: - 18
Blacklight, Blindsight, Blink, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fear, Forestfold, Gaseous Form, Greater Magic Fang, Haste, Jagged Tooth, Major Image, Mass Curse of Impending Blades, Slow, Snare, Unluck

Fourth Level Spells: - 12
Air Walk, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Dimension Door, Greater Blindsight, Greater Invisibility, Greater Resistance, Lay of the Land, Locate Creature, Poison, Sharptooth, Superior Magic Fang

Fifth Level Spells: - 8
Commune with Nature, Echo Skull, Greater Blink, Greater Dispel Magic, Nightmare, Persistent Image, Shadow Walk, Wrack

Sixth Level Spells: - 7
Eyebite, Find the Path, Imperious Glare, Mass Contagion, Permanent Image, Superior Resistance, Wind Walk


Looks like a good list. If you're still looking for more spells, though, remember what a Skinwalker is: a creature/person that corrupts divine nature magic and can strike fear into the hearts of people, not to mention fool their eyes. So, for fear and illusion effects, look at the Wizard/Sorcerer list. For nature spells for this, take a look at the Druid's spell list, and I'd also recommend taking a look at the Blighter prestige class for class and spell ideas. Lastly, since Skinwalkers were seen as a sort of abomination against the gods, take a look at the Cleric spell list and take a few that an evil cleric might take.



Now, should the Skinwalker be Arcane or Divine? I'm leaning towards Divine, myself, but, as always, I'm open to suggestion.

Divine would probably be the best choice. They're distorting divine power for their own use, sort of like an Ur-Priest.

[Lyndworm]

Looks like a good list. If you're still looking for more spells, though, remember what a Skinwalker is: a creature/person that corrupts divine nature magic and can strike fear into the hearts of people, not to mention fool their eyes. So, for fear and illusion effects, look at the Wizard/Sorcerer list. For nature spells for this, take a look at the Druid's spell list, and I'd also recommend taking a look at the Blighter prestige class for class and spell ideas. Lastly, since Skinwalkers were seen as a sort of abomination against the gods, take a look at the Cleric spell list and take a few that an evil cleric might take.
Thank you for the advice; I'll certainly take that into consideration. I've been trying to avoid spells that outright damage an enemy or aid allies in any way, instead preferring those that trick or weaken the enemy, or make the Skinwalker more powerful. In that spirit, I'll go comb over the Cleric spells and see if I can't find anything thematically appropriate.

New spells:
Zeroth:
Detect Poison (not sure how I missed that one)

First:
Bane, Comprehend Languages, Deathwatch, Doom, Ebon Eyes, Entropic Shield

Second:
Death Knell, Curse of Ill Fortune, Mark of the Outcast, Shatter

Third:
Water Walk

Fourth:
Consumptive Field, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Blindsight

Fifth:
Mass Curse of Ill Fortune, Slay Living

Divine would probably be the best choice. They're distorting divine power for their own use, sort of like an Ur-Priest.
That was my deduction as well. It's good to see that I'm not totally bonkers there.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Are there rules for creating a Skinwalker after 1st level? Does he get to pick out whatever forms he wants for his Practiced Forms, or is there some sort of restriction? I know you wanted to make it a part of the story to seek out and find cool combat forms, but a Skinwalker at high levels is pretty useless if he starts out without any forms.

[Lyndworm]

Are there rules for creating a Skinwalker after 1st level? Does he get to pick out whatever forms he wants for his Practiced Forms, or is there some sort of restriction? I know you wanted to make it a part of the story to seek out and find cool combat forms, but a Skinwalker at high levels is pretty useless if he starts out without any forms.
That is an extraordinary question, and something I completely overlooked when making the class. I'll have to go add another paragraph to the Skinwalking ability, now.

How does this sound?

A Skinwalker starting at a level higher than first may, at the DM's discretion, begin play with some skins already in its possession. For every level after first the Skinwalker starts with 1d3 pelts. One pelt per die roll is considered to be of excellent quality (Survival check succeeded on first try; exact copy of creature), while the rest are merely average (Survival check succeeded on second try; generic copy of creature). For example, Ahiga is beginning play as a 6th level Skinwalker. This means that Ahiga starts with 5d3 pelts, 5 of which are in excellent condition. These skins can be from any creature of any type to which Ahiga has access through his Skinwalking ability, but Ahiga must discuss with his DM whether or not his choices are campaign-appropriate.

[mrcarter11]

This is probably something really simple, but if Skinwalker took down a lycanthrope in human form, could they use it's skin to become a hybrid.. I think by RAW they can. Which also brings Me to my next question, can they spread the curse as well?

Also forgive my lack on knowledge on subtypes, but are any subtypes banned from a Skinwalker? Or are they all banned? I didn't see anywhere it said anything about subtypes, so I assume any subtype is allowed. But how exactly do you fashion a swarm subtype pelt?

Lastly, any reason you can't become an Undead type monster?

[Lyndworm]

This is probably something really simple, but if Skinwalker took down a lycanthrope in human form, could they use it's skin to become a hybrid.. I think by RAW they can. Which also brings Me to my next question, can they spread the curse as well?
Technically yes, which is something that I'm OK with. Anytime after 10th level they can spread the curse, as well, which is also something I'm OK with. Is there something I'm missing that makes this particularly suited for abuse?


Also forgive my lack on knowledge on subtypes, but are any subtypes banned from a Skinwalker? Or are they all banned? I didn't see anywhere it said anything about subtypes, so I assume any subtype is allowed. But how exactly do you fashion a swarm subtype pelt?
It's kind of hidden in there, but it does say that the pelt must come from a dead creature as opposed to some form of pluralization. So, technically, Swarms are not allowed by virtue of not being a single creature. Should I make this more clear?

All other Subtypes are allowed, but since Skinwalking works like Wildshape you don't gain any traits of the Type or Subtype.


Lastly, any reason you can't become an Undead type monster?
It doesn't seem thematically appropriate to me; why, is that something that would interest you?

[mrcarter11]

No nothing about it screams abuse, I just wanted to make sure.. As for the Swarm thing, that makes sense as well and I'm okay with that. The note about Wild Shape not giving traits is something I just kinda overlooked, I've never admittedly played a Druid and therfore have no experience with their class features, but that has nothing to do with you. As for the Undead, I personally would like it yes, but they are usually one of my favorite types.. I understand why it doesn't exactly fit though.

[Lyndworm]

No nothing about it screams abuse, I just wanted to make sure..
Good to know. I'm generally pretty good at seeing that kind of thing, but I've made mistakes before and certainly will again.


As for the Swarm thing, that makes sense as well and I'm okay with that. The note about Wild Shape not giving traits is something I just kinda overlooked, I've never admittedly played a Druid and therfore have no experience with their class features, but that has nothing to do with you.
Don't worry about it. Every question you ask makes me take a harder look at the class, which can only be a good thing. Besides, you learned something and I taught someone, so that's a win/win even if it doesn't help the Skinwalker.


As for the Undead, I personally would like it yes, but they are usually one of my favorite types.. I understand why it doesn't exactly fit though.
I, too, have a fascination with the Undead, but it just doesn't jive with this class as I envision it. It's a cool idea for a PrC, though. Maybe, after I'm truly comfortable with the Skinwalker, I'll make some sort of PrC (Fleshripper?) that can use magic on other people's bodies rather than just its own.

[mrcarter11]

That would be nice. Vampires and lichs may present some problems though.. Not really sure. In any case, I like this a good bit. The HD part wasn't what I was expecting, I had expected CR must equal Skinwalker lvl, but all is fair I guess.

[Lyndworm]

Wildshape is based on HD, so Skinwalking is, too. I'm aware that not all creatures are equal, but it makes about as much sense as anything else. To be honest, CR would probably throw it off quite a bit. Just off the top of my head, a dire wolf's CR is half of its HD (CR3, 6HD). I'm not sure I'm comfortable giving that to players so early.

[mrcarter11]

Thus is in fact true. I just can't think of much to become around levels 3-5.. That could be because my lack of Druid training though. :smallredface:

[Lyndworm]

Leopard's a pretty strong choice, and thematic as well since cougars are one of the favored forms of the Navajo skinwalkers. Ape's pretty good, too, and it might even be able to wield weapons or wear armor... Really you can't go wrong. Just pick an animal with 3-5HD and you're pretty set. Some are better than others, of course, but most of them are pretty good.

Besides, the Skinwalker is as much about trickery as it is brute force. Becoming an animal that no one would ever notice and just... waiting for the right moment is what these guys are all about. Their spells are designed to weaken and confuse enemies while boosting their own power so that they never take part in a fair fight. They should be very scary individuals even when they're not bears.

[mrcarter11]

Ah. I hadn't looked at the spells to be honest.. Shame on Me, I know.. I just like the main class feature and what it does. I think overall it's quite the class.. As for how they fight, I guess that would make them perfect for a dip, huh?

[Lyndworm]

Thank you for the compliment. It means a lot to me to know that I can make something people like.

It's not a terrible idea, no. Since their main class ability is capped based by HD, not class level, it continues to scale regardless of class. So one level gives you all animals forever, three times a day. I hadn't realized that the class was quite so dip-accessible until just now, but I'm surprisingly cool with it.

[mrcarter11]

I think level 3 is the better choice. Take vermin and go pure caster after that. Like a less cheesy tibbit. In any case, I think I may try to find a time to use this soon. Much thanks.

[Lyndworm]

If you do use the Skinwalker, please let me know how it goes. I would love some feedback on it, especially from a group other than my own. I have a very small group IRL and we tend to run towards the more predictable side, so new information would be great.

[NeoSeraphi]

The lycanthropy thing wouldn't work, as wild shape is based on the alternate form special ability, and the alternate form ability specifically states you cannot use it to take on the form of a creature with a template, like lycanthropy.

[Pyromancer999]

Thank you for the compliment. It means a lot to me to know that I can make something people like.


Yep. No one else had a hand in it..........:smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, you've made some nice refinements for the class version of the Skinwalking ability. Well done.

Also.....



Frightening Presence usually activates on an attack or charge. It's relevant because it affects any of the creatures modifiers to hit you if you provoke an attack of opportunity while you're charging.


Let me explain this one: The class is based off a template I made, and incorporates a lot of the template in the class. Frightening Presence is different than Frightful Presence, which is the ability you're thinking of. Frightening Presence is a constant ability, basically because just the sight of a Skinwalker of Navajo myth is supposed to scare the heck out of you. It's not just something that happens when it attacks, you could be watching a Skinwalker read Twilight with a box of tissues and luxury chocolates in a bathrobe and it'd still frighten you. It's just how they are.

[NeoSeraphi]

Let me explain this one: The class is based off a template I made, and incorporates a lot of the template in the class. Frightening Presence is different than Frightful Presence, which is the ability you're thinking of. Frightening Presence is a constant ability, basically because just the sight of a Skinwalker of Navajo myth is supposed to scare the heck out of you. It's not just something that happens when it attacks, you could be watching a Skinwalker read Twilight with a box of tissues and luxury chocolates in a bathrobe and it'd still frighten you. It's just how they are.

Well, see, I would get that, but his original ability was "when it attacks", not "just from the sight of it".

[Pyromancer999]

Well, see, I would get that, but his original ability was "when it attacks", not "just from the sight of it".

Oh. I see, so he made it deviate from the template. Alright then. Still, all that's required is the entering of the line of sight requirement.

[ArcanistSupreme]

How does this sound?

Looks good to me.

Something else that I was thinking of is Skinwalking into a creature that has an innate spellcasting ability (such as a dragon). You might want to make it explicit that spellcasting is not considered a Extraordinary or Supernatural ability so people don't walk around getting ridiculous numbers of free spells.

[Lyndworm]

The lycanthropy thing wouldn't work, as wild shape is based on the alternate form special ability, and the alternate form ability specifically states you cannot use it to take on the form of a creature with a template, like lycanthropy.
Thank you for reminding me of this. I should really stop fielding questions after midnight; I get all weird.


Oh. I see, so he made it deviate from the template. Alright then. Still, all that's required is the entering of the line of sight requirement.
Uh... I did change it, but I just added the thing about charging. The original already had the thing about triggering it on attacks. After going back and rereading the Skin-Walker template just now it seems that you've edited in an alternate triggering mechanism based on LoS. That's fine, of course, but I was apparently working from an older version of the template that did not include this.

Although I mean no disrespect to you, Pyromancer999, I've been thinking about deviating further and just straight up calling it Frightful Presence. This would provide some consistency, I feel, and if I'm going to change around your abilities that much, what's the point in keeping them? It's clearly not what you meant it to be, so why pretend it is? In my opinion, it would be more respectful to you and your work to change it at this point.


Something else that I was thinking of is Skinwalking into a creature that has an innate spellcasting ability (such as a dragon). You might want to make it explicit that spellcasting is not considered a Extraordinary or Supernatural ability so people don't walk around getting ridiculous numbers of free spells.
Fair enough. It probably wouldn't hurt to include that in the Improved Skinwalking entry.

[Pyromancer999]

Although I mean no disrespect to you, Pyromancer999, I've been thinking about deviating further and just straight up calling it Frightful Presence. This would provide some consistency, I feel, and if I'm going to change around your abilities that much, what's the point in keeping them? It's clearly not what you meant it to be, so why pretend it is? In my opinion, it would be more respectful to you and your work to change it at this point.


Fine by me.