First character, 32pt buy paladin

[RCgothic]

Hi,

I was hoping the playground could give me some critique and advice on my first character. :) I'm fairly read up, but have no real experience of this - please excuse me for waffling a bit!

So I've been particularly inspired by the concept of a Paladin. The DM says we'll be picking attributes using 32pt buy and using the PHB1&2, DMG1&2, MM and SC as sourcebooks.

The role I have in mind is a kind of party leader/tank/mounted fighter (put special mount to good use).

As I understand it, Charisma is critical for a Paladin as it's used twice in Smite Evil, in Divine Grace, Lay on Hands and Turn Undead, plus will come in very handy for Diplomacy/Sense Motive etc in a negotiation standpoint. Wisdom has to be at least 14 to access the highest-level spells later, and to get new spell levels as early as possible, whilst Strength is always important to a CC oriented character. Dexterity, Constitution and Intelligence all fairly useful as well, so it seems like attribute choice will be more critical even than usual!

Here's what I was thinking:
Str14 (6pts)
Dex13 (5pts)
Con11 (3pts)
Int11 (3pts)
Wis13 (5pts)
Cha 16 (10pts)
32pts.

I'd then go middle aged, which can squeeze out a couple more points to buff charisma:
Str13 (5pts) (to 14@lvl8)
Dex12 (4pts)
Con10 (2pts)
Int12 (4pts)
Wis14 (6pts)
Cha17 (13pts) (to 18@lvl4)

So first up, thoughts on the attributes? I'm going Human because the extra feat and skill point comes in useful to a feat-and-skill-starved paladin, and none of the other races seem to buff anything I need at the expense of anything I can spare.

The charisma I view as essential, yet I can't make it to 18 from the start because the 3pt-per-pt would cripple me elsewhere.
Str14 from the start would be nice, but again don't feel I can waste the 2pts on Str15 in such a multi-attribute class, and I feel I gain more by exploiting middle age for some extra starting points than I would by starting at S14.
An Int of at least 12 is also fairly essential for the 4 skill points per turn - I'll need to max out ride, whilst diplomacy, sense motive, and knowledge(royalty) are all synergetic with the partly leader; knowledge(religion) can help to turn undead. Then of course at least a few of the general cross-class skills such as listen, search, spot, surival, swim will come in useful! rapidly running out of skill points! So I figure Int12 can't be missed!

So Dex, Con & Wisdom up for discussion. I certainly don't want a penalty in any of these. (*sigh*, why couldn't I have picked something simple, like a wizard?).
As above, I've got Wis14 because I'll need it for the spells. I could take Wis12 and use it to bump Str to 14, but then I'd lose an attribute point. As is I'd be lvl12 instead of lvl8 for the same stats. I could use it to bump the lower of Dex/Con, but then I'd be lvl16 before getting my final spells - Str and Cha would still be first in the queue for attribute upgrades. So Wis14 it is. Thoughts?
As for which way round Dex/Con go, I figured I'd put the 12 in Dex to add to my AC and to my reflex save, which is my worst. (Saves F+8,R+6,W+7 @lvl4) An extra hit point per lvl would be nice, but Fortitude is already my strongest save, and offset by not being hit as much? Dexterity would also help with a bow. Thoughts?

As for other aspects of the class, it's clear that Remove Disease sucks, so I think I'll try and talk my DM into exchanging it for bonus feats, or, failing that, break enchantment/remove curse from PHB2.

On equipment, I'd like to see if I can blag Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword instead of some of the other martial proficiencies I think I'm unlikely to need, in which case I'd work towards Bastard Sword (or else Longsword) & Full Plate with Heavy shield for a total AC of 21 (10+8+2+1) or 20 flat footed. Other Weaponry would eventually be a composite shortbow and lance. Thoughts?

For feats, I'll have 5 by lvl9. I'm thinking Power Attack (1) Improved Sunder(H), Improved Critical BS (3), Mounted Combat (6). A bit stuck for the 5th though. Improved Initiative? Negotiator? Weapon Focus? Tower Shield Proficiency? What should I be going for in terms of feats?

As for background, I figure I must have heard the call late, being middle aged and only lvl1! Most likely I'm a scholarly/clerical type who picked up a hereditary weapon in a time of crisis, discovered more power in me than I knew, and now adventuring in an attempt to work out what this apparent destiny all means. Thus explaining higher than usual Int/Cha/Wis and a lack of the usual weapon proficiencies.

Any critique/comments gratefully accepted!

[Godskook]

1.You're better off going Greatsword+Buckler or Lance+Buckler than Bastard Sword + Heavy. Getting bastard sword is only going to give you +1 on attack rolls(from not wearing the buckler), cripple your damage(no 2-handed ratio on PA, worse dice, etc), and +1 AC for what's typically a feat-cost. Not worth it even if you had proficiency already. If you wanted an exotic weapon, Spiked Chain is the only notable one I'm familiar with, and is actually quite good in most respects(loses to both of my above weapons in damage, but brings utility).

2.Aging your character is a good idea for casters cause they're really not caring about physical scores. For a tanky guy, you literally can't afford to do that. The physical stats are too valuable.

[RCgothic]

But if I don't age him, I'm pretty much giving up on Cha 18 at any stage, which I'm really keen on, and in a Paladin can help offset lower values in Con/Fortitude and Reflex through Lay on Hands and Divine Grace. I'd be sacrificing far too much in other areas otherwise due to the higher point cost of values 17/18.

I also don't think there's any getting around the fact I'll need at least a +1 modifier in INT for the party leader role.

That leaves only Wisdom that could potentially move to Dex/Con, but would cripple my spellcasting at mid-high.

Seriously Str13 Dex12 Con10 or Str13 Dex10 Con12 can't work? I feel straight jacketed by the demands of point buy and the lack of a true dump stat, and I thought I was being fairly clever by aging.

As for weapons, it's going to be LS or BS purely for aesthetics. ;) I like the swords, BS in particular.

What should I be taking for feats? And does Smite Evil stack with Power Attack?

[Calimehter]

One thing about the 14 WIS is that you don't need it right away. You don't get the higher level spells till later in your career. You will, however, be using your STR and CON and CHA right out of the gate at level 1. I would start out with those stats high, and use your later ability score increases (and/or magic items, if available) to bump up wisdom as needed.

Something like:

STR 14
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 11
CHA 17

could work, bumping your CHA right away at level 4 and then bumping up WIS from level 8 (and likely on).

[Greenish]

But if I don't age him, I'm pretty much giving up on Cha 18 at any stage+5 from levelling, +6 from magic item, +5 from manuals. You can start with 4 cha and end up with 18.

Not that you'd need that much charisma in most places. You're MAD (multiple attribute dependent), no, you're the posterboy for MAD. When people think of MAD, they think of you (or monk). You don't want to boost one stat at the expense of others, unless you can get proper mileage from it.

[Eldariel]

You managed to pick the most, or second-most stat hungry class in the game. Congratulations. In order:

- You need Charisma for your class features. You identified this correctly.
- You need Strength for melee. This is lacking.
- You need Constitution for melee. This is absolutely crucial as if you're taking hits, you need hitpoints.
- You need Wisdom for spellcasting. Duh.
- You kinda want Dex for AC & Attacks of Opportunity and Intelligence for skill points but they're less important.


Your idea for aging is good, but I think you simply want too much too fast. 32pb doesn't really support a Paladin with over 16 in any stat without giving up a lot. Settle for 16 Str, 16 Cha and go from there. That leaves you 12 points for the rest of the stats (something like 14 Con, 12 Wis, 10 Int, 10 Dex). You'll get magic items that can boost your stats eventually and heavy armor helps you with your low Dex.

Yes, this is a known issue in the system. Pointbuy is really unkind to especially Paladin and Monk. Just...make do or ask for few points of extra.

[Howler Dagger]

But if I don't age him, I'm pretty much giving up on Cha 18 at any stage, which I'm really keen on, and in a Paladin can help offset lower values in Con/Fortitude and Reflex through Lay on Hands and Divine Grace. I'd be sacrificing far too much in other areas otherwise due to the higher point cost of values 17/18. No you arent. Stat boosting items are common, and you get an AS increase at 4,8,12,16, and 20. Aa Calimehter said, you need to prioritize STR, CON, and CHA. When you say party face i assume you mean high dimplomacy. As a human with a +0 INT mod., you get 3 SP per level, and 12 at first level. Seeing as you the Max ranks in a skill is 3+you character level, you would have no problem having a max dimplomacy skill. Why wont low CON, STR and DEX work? for oone, you are a melee tank, and to hit in melee you need STR, and to avoid being hit, you need DEX(having a high dex wont matter to much if you wear heavy armor), and to take hits you need CON. at 10th level, the difference between +0 CON and +2 CON is 20 hit points. Wisdom is less important, as you dont need 14 wisdom till 15th level.

[ericgrau]

You need strength bad, you're melee not a caster. +1 to hit is usually better than +1 to saves. Even on your smites the charisma gives you +1 to hit... which you would have gotten anyway from strength. Meanwhile lay on hands needs to really be super-pumped to even be a worthwhile in-combat cure a mere once per day. You can and should have a high charisma, but strength needs to be at least as high if not higher. As pointed out con is very important too, dex should be at least 12, and wis is kinda nice. I wouldn't focus too much on any one stat.

[Taelas]

Eldariel, 14 Con, 12 Wis, and 10 Con and Dex would be 14 points, not 12. :smallwink:

I would go for 14 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, and 12 Wis, since you want skill points.

[Godskook]

But if I don't age him, I'm pretty much giving up on Cha 18 at any stage, which I'm really keen on, and in a Paladin can help offset lower values in Con/Fortitude and Reflex through Lay on Hands and Divine Grace. I'd be sacrificing far too much in other areas otherwise due to the higher point cost of values 17/18.

You don't need Charisma that high for anything other than creating a mostly useless character.

Going:
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14

Is far stronger for you. Divine Grace is handy, but negligible unless you're a Cha-based character, and a 'tank' can't afford to be Cha-based unless he's a Sorcadin-type, which you can't build without access to several sourcebooks you don't have. That means you need tank stats, which are Str/Con.

Wisdom can be boosted high enough with items to satisfy your spellcasting, which is too minor to be worth point-buy points.


I also don't think there's any getting around the fact I'll need at least a +1 modifier in INT for the party leader role.

Given your goals, I kept that one in there.


That leaves only Wisdom that could potentially move to Dex/Con, but would cripple my spellcasting at mid-high.

Your spellcasting is meh at best, and horrible at worst. Not worth it unless you've got access to Battle Blessing and/or Sword of the Arcane Order(You don't).


Seriously Str13 Dex12 Con10 or Str13 Dex10 Con12 can't work? I feel straight jacketed by the demands of point buy and the lack of a true dump stat, and I thought I was being fairly clever by aging.

Dex is the closest you got.


As for weapons, it's going to be LS or BS purely for aesthetics. ;) I like the swords, BS in particular.

Bastard Sword gives you ~1 damage, and would thus only be worth it if it was 'essentially' free.


What should I be taking for feats? And does Smite Evil stack with Power Attack?

Yes, they stack.

As for good feats, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and others more melee oriented posters will probably put forth.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, 14 Con, 12 Wis, and 10 Con and Dex would be 14 points, not 12. :smallwink:

True, was doing it in a hurry. It's really painful to drop Strength that low on primary melee though. Generally melee's thing is, y'know, hitting things. Not missing them. So...meh. Kinda sucks to drop Str even lower; Smite is very rarely available in 3.5 so most attacks will be purely Strength-based. I'd rather drop Cha to 14 on melee Paladin before Str, to be honest.


Your spellcasting is meh at best, and horrible at worst. Not worth it unless you've got access to Battle Blessing and/or Sword of the Arcane Order(You don't).

Core Pally casting isn't entirely worthless. Divine Favor Quickened through whatever means is still a solid combat buff, Protection From Evil is still alright if you don't have the mind protection effect from another source, Lesser Restoration is fine, Shield Other is actually very good with your mount to massively increase your hit point pool, Heal Mount is obviously handy and Holy Sword is pretty good.

If you invest in e.g. Lesser Rod of Quicken eventually, you can make a good use of some of them (though of course, most of the spells like Resist Energy, Protection from Evil and company will be provided by real casters much, much earlier; Pally does have about 1 personally useful spell per level though).

[Godskook]

Core Pally casting isn't entirely worthless. Divine Favor Quickened through whatever means is still a solid combat buff, Protection From Evil is still alright if you don't have the mind protection effect from another source, Lesser Restoration is fine, Shield Other is actually very good with your mount to massively increase your hit point pool, Heal Mount is obviously handy and Holy Sword is pretty good.

If you invest in e.g. Lesser Rod of Quicken eventually, you can make a good use of some of them (though of course, most of the spells like Resist Energy, Protection from Evil and company will be provided by real casters much, much earlier; Pally does have about 1 personally useful spell per level though).

And my point wasn't that it should be wholly neglected, but that it shouldn't be emphasized relative to actually having good Str/Con scores.

[Draz74]

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14
Yeah, I think this is the best spread you're going to get.


Your spellcasting is meh at best, and horrible at worst. Not worth it unless you've got access to Battle Blessing and/or Sword of the Arcane Order(You don't).
Here I disagree. He has access to Spell Compendium, so his spellcasting is decent even without Battle Blessing. Read all the SpC Paladin spells carefully and buy lots of low-level Pearls of Power!


Bastard Sword gives you ~1 damage, and would thus only be worth it if it was 'essentially' free.
Yeah, bastard sword definitely isn't worth a feat.

[Lord Vampyre]

First of all, you should forget the bonus feat for being a human. If you play a lesser Aasimar you'll get +2 Wis, +2 Cha.

From there you should spend your attribute points fairly evenly, bringing your Str, Wis, Cha, and Con up to 14, and your Dex and Int upto 12. With the +2 Wis and Cha, you'll end up with:

Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 16

Also, lesser Aasimars have quite a few other perks that make up for the bonus feat. However, you will still be lacking in the number of skill points you will recieve.

Edit: The best way to use a bastard sword without using a feat is to get your DM to allow the optional Weapon Group feats in Unearthed Arcana. You will be sacrificing your versatility in being able to use any Martial Weapon for the ability to wield a bastard sword. You'll still have a few other options, just not many.

[SowZ]

If it were me, I wouldn't even bump Int. at all. 8 Int. doesn't mean stupid, especially with a high wisdom, it just means you aren't booksmart and don't learn things the fastest. Nothing to be ashamed of. But I wouldn't boost it to twelve. It is your least important stat. And Dex? I wouldn't take it past 10. Pick up adamantine plate eventually and your max mod is 1. +2 Dex is worth 4k. Cha is not quite as important as you are stating it to be. Also, I would not have so many stats at uneven numbers. The difference between 12-13 or 14-15 is only feat pre-reqs.

That's me. When I first started, I wanted to have good balance stats in everything, too. But that doesn't work out, too well. With your Str. so low, too, you will be missing alot.

Lord Vamprye has a good point, too, I would consider lesser assimar pretty heavily.

[Zyoto12]

Might I recommend going Lesser Aasimar for your race? You lose the feat and the extra skill points, but get +2 Cha and Wis, as well as a bunch of other cool stuff, most notably 5 resistance to cold, acid, and electricity as well as 1.day daylight, I think you get darkvision as well, but I'm not sure about that part.

[SowZ]

Might I recommend going Lesser Aasimar for your race? You lose the feat and the extra skill points, but get +2 Cha and Wis, as well as a bunch of other cool stuff, most notably 5 resistance to cold, acid, and electricity as well as 1.day daylight, I think you get darkvision as well, but I'm not sure about that part.

Aye, up to 60 ft. And +2 Spot/Listen, which is actually +3 with the Wisom. Which is nice.

[RCgothic]

OK, that certainly has my attention. +2Wis +2Cha sounds ideal for a Paladin. Shame about the +1skill, if not the bonus feat, as I have 3 skills I'd want to max plus at least 3 I'll need ranks in, 3 points per level with Int 12 barely seems to cut it.

But I can't find the 'lesser' version of the Assimar, and what does Level Adjustment +1 mean?

[marcielle]

Means that just taking that race counts as a character level because it is so awesome. That means at level 2 you will only have 1 level of paladin cos aasimar counts as 1 level. Lesser is a racial variant for all planetouched races(aasimar , tiefling and genasi) that just means you lose the outsider type and the LA. LA is not USUALLY worth it so only play LA is LA buyoff is allowed. Your DM can explain that to you since you have to ask him anyway.

[Taelas]

OK, that certainly has my attention. +2Wis +2Cha sounds ideal for a Paladin. Shame about the +1skill, if not the bonus feat, as I have 3 skills I'd want to max plus at least 3 I'll need ranks in, 3 points per level with Int 12 barely seems to cut it.

But I can't find the 'lesser' version of the Assimar, and what does Level Adjustment +1 mean?

It is a variant called Lesser Planetouched; it's from Forgotten Realms, specifically Player's Guide to Faerûn. You lose the Outsider type (which is hefty on its own), and gain the Humanoid type with the Planetouched subtype, which means you count as Humanoid for any effects related to that type, and you are still affected by things which affect Outsiders (though you are not of that type). It reduces the level adjustment by 1; since Aasimars have +1 level adjustment, it makes it a LA+0 race. But since it is not on your list of sources, it is not really an option for you.

Level adjustment is just that: It is an adjustment to your level, due to your race, which is more powerful than the "standard" races. Elf, Human, Gnome, etc. are all LA+0. (There are subtypes of Elf and Gnome which are not, but the main variant does not have a level adjustment.)

What this means is that if you are a 1st level Paladin as a race with a +1 LA, you are actually 2nd level overall -- 1 for Paladin, and 1 for your level adjustment. There is a third factor as well called Racial Hit Dice, or RHD for short. Racial hit dice is essentially "classes" for races. For instance, there are Animal or Dragon hit dice. Your ECL -- Effective Character Level -- is equal to your class level + your RHD + your level adjustment. It can be shortened to simply HD+LA=ECL if you include RHD with your class HD. Standard races do not have any RHD, as they replace it with a class level.

[RCgothic]

Ok, I think I get it:

I'd start as a lvl 1 Paladin with 0XP like everyone else, but as I'd count as lvl2 higher so the DM would feel free to throw tougher encounters at us whilst I'd get less XP per encounter proportionate to everyone else as they are effectively easier for me. Because of the leader/mounted role I want to take I'd need to offset the loss of 4th skill point for not being human by taking INT14, which leaves me with just the +2CHA.

Beginning to sound less worthwhile again. Anyway, thanks all for your help on Attributes/race, I think I've got enough info to make my choices there.

On the subject of equipment, I still want to go with sword and shield because it's the archetypical paladin, but I do take the point about two-handed/power attack/smite evil bonuses. Bastard Sword is actually preferable to Longsword for this, as it can be used two handed, and I'm fairly sure I can blag proficiency for free. Perhaps I could drop my shield before the big smite? Maybe even employ some sort of swift-release mechanism? Is this feasible?

Also, which feats should I be taking? Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Improved Sunder and Mounted Combat all sound good, as does Spirited Charge, though I'm less sure about Ride By Attack which is a prereq. Any suggestions? Weapon Focus?

[Eldariel]

Mounted Combat -> Ride-By Attack -> Spirited Charge should be your first focus. The mounted charge with a Lance is some of the most impressive offense you can bring to bear in 3.5.

Power Attack is only really worthwhile if you do choose to two-hand your weapon and have significant To Hit bonuses. Currently that's not the case. If you do get some 16 Strength and some To Hit boosts later on though, you should consider it for two-handing (it goes great for Smite attack as the massive To Hit bonuses from Smite compensate for lots of Power Attack). Mounted Charge Smite with high Power Attack is going to leave heads ringing; you can two-hand the Lance if desired too, to add 1.5*Str to damage and 2*Power attack.


Since PHBII is legal, you might want to look at Shield Specialization and Shield Ward if you're going to use one anyways. Do note you can use Lance one-handed while mounted so you can use Lance And Shield while making Mounted Charges.

Improved Sunder I wouldn't bother with; you're breaking items you'd get as loot. It's rarely useful. Improved Initiative is a good "extra" feat to take when you have nothing else. Improved Critical is quite decent but requires you to only use one weapon type; there's weapon enhancement called "Keen" that also does the same.

I'd look at "Robilar's Gambit" from PHBII eventually. It does require some Dexterity but provided you can scrounge it up with magic items or whatever, it's actually a really strong option for melee combat.

[RCgothic]

Might Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) be useful if I'm a little lacking in the strength department?

How is Ride by attack used to most effect? or is it purely to get spirited charge?

Shield Specialisation seems good. More AC can't hurt.

[Andreaz]

If your DM is aware or willing to listen on why paladins and monks are posterboys for bad class design(attribute dependency, overestimating BAB over caster levels, "melee doesn't get nice things"), try to use Pathfinder's paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) instead. It doesn't need Wisdom, has a better caster level, better smite, better Lay on Hands, may enchant weapon for a while instead of getting a mount, and a much better drawn iconic character. And its power level isn't overpowered even if you port it back to 3.5 (it really stands more or less in the same position as before, compared to other classes, but he won't be a potpourri of suck)


Of course, if your DM thinks monks are overpowered there's not much to do.

[Eldariel]

Might Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) be useful if I'm a little lacking in the strength department?

Well, sorta, though it's problematic if you use other weapons (such as Lance) too. It also doesn't give you damage.


How is Ride by attack used to most effect? or is it purely to get spirited charge?

Well. Basically, you do a Ride-By Attack. So you do a mounted charge and ride past the opponent so he can't full attack you back. The faster your mount (DMG has higher level mounts for Paladin like Pegasus, Hippogryff and such; pick some such up then), the easier this is to pull off. It's fairly awesome against monsters with lots of natural attacks.

And yeah, Spirited Charge is another big part; extra friggin' multiplier for your damage is just lovely.


Shield Specialisation seems good. More AC can't hurt.

Shield Specialization more importantly gets you to Shield Ward which makes the shield actually useful against a lot of stuff.

[Person_Man]

You may find these links helpful:
Melee Combo Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026)
Paladin Mount Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6985038)
Smite Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10289492)
Paladin Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook _--_2007) (old link - I'm sure someone has updated this by now)
X stat to Y bonus
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

General Advice:

Your Special Mount is your most powerful class feature. Ask your DM if you can take the Leadership feat at 6th to improve it (there are guidelines for this in the Dungeon Master's Guide). If your DM does not allow Leadership, consider a Prestige Class that grants a powerful mount.
A Small character can ride a Medium Special Mount anywhere that normal Medium sized characters can go. So there's really no reason you shouldn't be mounted all of the time.
Your Turn Undead class ability is great for fueling Divine and Domain feats. In particular, take a look at Complete Divine and Complete Champion.
Paladins actually have a number of helpful spells, but usually only one or two per book. Remember that a Paladin can use wands for any spell on their list, even if they can't cast it yet.
Avoid feats which provide minor static bonuses, like Weapon Focus. Look for feats that provide scaled bonuses, like Power Attack or anything that multiplies damage, and/or feats that provide useful abilities that you can't cheaply duplicate with magic items, like Shock Trooper, Leadership, Travel Devotion, Divine Shield, etc.