Baatezu Traits

[Duragonburo]

So we're homebrewing a class and using a race that lets you summon a Baatezu. We're doing a lvl 20 fight just to see if the class we're making isn't overpowered. The fight is a one-on-one.

What should I let him summon?

I don't think a CR 20 Baatezu is appropriate (since this trait is available from level 1) and what about how many times per day/week/month? Or should I let him choose from more than one Baatezu?

Any thoughts?

[beyond reality]

Well, firstly a single one-on-one fight is not a great way to figure out whether or not a class is unbalanced.

As far as a level 1 ability to summon baatezu it really depends on how that ability works. How often can it be used? How long does it last. What can the player request of the summoned creature?

Keep in mind that summoning a devil is normally at least a 2nd level spell (summon monster 2 can be used to summon a lemur) and that spell takes a full round to cast and lasts only 1 round per level. Even considering that devil-only summoning is less flexible that's a pretty significant ability for a first level character to have immediate access to, especially if the ability takes less than a full round or lasts longer.

[Acanous]

Holy Hell, Batman, the Joker's summoning Tanar'ri!
Quickly, Robin, get the Bat-ezu!
nananananananaaa

Sorry, I'm just seeing a Batman wizard playing this race, and it's filling my head with funny ideas.

You could have it scale with hit dice, like half-fiend/celestial do.
What's the level adjustment of the race?
If the adjustment is low, have it be something simple, CR1-2, once per day, for round/lv. That'd help in combat during the low levels, could be used as an assistant or messenger for the high levels, and could scout or relay during the mid levels.

If there is no adjustment, have it be as above but once a week.

If the adjustment is high, (Say, +2 or more), then they should be able to summon daily. Roll a d6, subtract the result from your level, and you get the result number of that level Baatezu.

[tyckspoon]

If you're intending to test the class, you probably shouldn't be using the racial summon at all, since it could have a fairly high impact on the results without giving you useful information on how the class turned out. If you want to know as a separate question what kind of summoning would be good as a racial ability.. I'd say CR= 1/2 character's HD, cast as per Summon Monster. That'll get you a quick and dirty scaling ability providing resources roughly the same as actually casting Summon Monster (slightly lower CR on the high end, but should be made up for with being able to call any baatezu instead of just the SM lists.)

[Duragonburo]

The race has a +1 level adjustment. Demon fiend, I think. Something he found online. And no, I'm not picky about races being played.

And what do you mean that a one-on-one fight isn't good for knowing if the class is broken? It's just a heavy damage dealer, and the player never fully outfits himself with the things/feats he should, he tends to pick what looks cool over what's effective. And he doesn't really roleplay...:smallsigh:

So what would you suggest I should do to test him?

Anyway, I think I will take that Summon Monster at half character level thing. Sounds good while not being over-powering.

[tyckspoon]

And what do you mean that a one-on-one fight isn't good for knowing if the class is broken? It's just a heavy damage dealer, and the player never fully outfits himself with the things/feats he should, he tends to pick what looks cool over what's effective. And he doesn't really roleplay...:smallsigh:

So what would you suggest I should do to test him?


The best way is a multiple-encounter gauntlet approach; set the class against four or five fights with a variety of enemies (ranged/melee/spellcaster/flying/incorporeal/solo bruiser/gang outnumbering him, etc), a hallway full of different traps, an infiltration scenario, information-gathering, and so on. Test-run it through everything and take notes on how well it does. If it's a well-balanced class it'll probably be capable of completing most of the challenges, but it won't completely trivialize many of them either (but I'm guessing if the design goal was 'heavy damage dealer' it's probably lopsided on damage bonuses and doesn't have much way to handle unusual enemies, traps, or more skill-based situations.)

[Piggy Knowles]

Alternatively, you could make the summoned baatezu more like a familiar, with increasing abilities based on HD.

Summoning your baatezu takes 1 round (just like using a Summon spell), and you always get the same one, unless it dies. It lasts one hour per character level, although you can dismiss it earlier as a swift action. It always comes back with full health, although if it has abilities that can only be used a limited number of times per day, those don't refresh. If it dies, you need to perform a ritual to get a new one - so you can't just spam them in combat.

Start with something small and relatively harmless - maybe take a raven familiar, but fluff it out to be a mini-advespa, or a single ayperobos, or something. Poor stats, but you advance its natural armor, and it uses your skill ranks and BAB, and half your HP.

At level 3, you can upgrade it to a lemure. At level 7, you can upgrade it to an imp (I know that imps are not technically baatezu, but it fits).

You can choose to not upgrade your summoned baatezu, and get better stats and abilities, just like a familiar.

Gives a little more flavor to the race than just an arbitrary summoned monster, since you more or less bond with one baatezu that serves you.

[beyond reality]

The race has a +1 level adjustment. Demon fiend, I think. Something he found online. And no, I'm not picky about races being played.

And what do you mean that a one-on-one fight isn't good for knowing if the class is broken? It's just a heavy damage dealer, and the player never fully outfits himself with the things/feats he should, he tends to pick what looks cool over what's effective. And he doesn't really roleplay...:smallsigh:

So what would you suggest I should do to test him?

Anyway, I think I will take that Summon Monster at half character level thing. Sounds good while not being over-powering.

Because one-on-one combat is heavily based on luck and it's inevitable that one opponent will win and one will lose. Assuming it's not blatantly obvious (i.e. one character turns the other into a greasy smear without any effort at all) how do you tell if the character is balanced? The fight can't just end in a tie so inevitably one character is going to win and that doesn't necessarily mean they won because they were "too powerful".

Not to mention there's a huge variety of things that can cause a class to be poorly balanced that don't necessarily come up in one on one combat, or indeed have anything to do with combat at all. Plus many classes are designed so they have to use their abilities strategically, rationing them out so that they don't use up all their power at once. There's no motivation to "ration" your power in a one-on-one combat and that can heavily weight the results.

The best way to "test" a class is rigorous multi-session playtesting. Of course most of us don't have time for that so the easiest way is to try and determine what role the class is meant to play in game (defense, offense, skill-focused, sneaky, jack-of-all trades, etc) and then compare it to an existing class that already fills that role. If the new class is significantly better at filling the role than the existing class then it's not balanced. If the new class is about as good at filling the role as the existing class but has extra abilities or bonuses on top of their ability to fill the role then it's probably not balanced. If it looks like it fills that role fine then it may be balanced, so generally it's fine to let it in and see how it works out in actual play.

EDIT: Also, how can a race have a +1 LA, but not define what creatures it can summon?