Using Drow as a DM

[faceroll]

I'm running a module with Drow in it, and the party ultimate magus (a surface dwelling drow himself) wants to kill Lolth. The module itself is Queen of the Spiders (updating from 2nd edition), where a city in greyhawk is being pulled into lolth's demonweb.

Drow seem like too hard of opponents for my party. They're sneaky, devious, and tend to be rogues, clerics, and wizards, which are some of the most lethal classes vs. a party.

Finding out where and what the party is doing (very easy, the party isn't exactly subtle, enjoy their growing reputation, etc.), teleport over, activate silence & invisibility sphere, gank them one by one in their sleep. They have someone posted to stand guard while they sleep, but without ranks in spot, they're hosed.

Drow seem dreadfully unfair. I am going to start hinting at the risks of being unconscious. Think I'll put a Broodswarm from Fiendish Codex 1 in their room at the tavern they own. :smallamused:

Is there anyway to prevent a party wipe using Drow, but also still keeping the Drow scary? The Drow are kind of a big deal in most lore.

[KillianHawkeye]

The drow wouldn't kill them in their sleep. They'd take them prisoner and sell them into slavery. BAM! New adventure!

[SowZ]

Nondetection on the whole party. Use suggestion on a few house leaders, 'suggest' to that house leader that another house is planning on wiping them out. (Don't suggest to wipe out a house, if acting on your orders a sense motive check will reveal the truth. It has to be... an organic suggestion.) Each time there is a battle, wait until near the end and have the whole party come in and finish of ALL survivors of the winning side. Do this a couple times, then when everyone is nervous and suspicous suggest to all the most powerful houses that another powerful house has been manipulating houses to fighting and then finishing them off, and they are net. Do this many times. Soon, there will be a massive power vaccum and eventually there may be a civil war. Assassinate leaders whenever one group in the civil war is getting the upperhand to make sure no one wins definitively. You want the war going on as long as possible.

Finally, when the city is at it's weakest, go to one of the Drows major enemies in the Underdark, (there are plenty,) and sell out the Drow providing definitive evidence that the most powerful houses are all very weak and that a good chunk of the houses are wiped out. Offer to help those Drow enemies destroy the Drow for a fee and engage in the massive battle. Looting a whole Drow city would be enough to make an entire small army rich. Now, a species might not be willing to piss off Lolth even if they know they could beat the Drow city. Clever manipulation might push someone over the edge, though.
Meanwhile, send the other party members who aren't trying to manipulate the Drow enemies into the Underdark to lure as many powerful creatures as possible into the Drow city to wreck havoc and keep the city even MORE disorganized. The city will be heavily warded, but with the weakened city you may find some paths to lead monsters into it.

This would be... challenging to pull off. VERY challenging. It probably wouldn't work. But were I to try something as suicidal as wiping out a Drow city, this is how I would do it.

[faceroll]

Nondetection on the whole party. Use suggestion on a few house leaders, 'suggest' to that house leader that another house is planning on wiping them out. (Don't suggest to wipe out a house, if acting on your orders a sense motive check will reveal the truth. It has to be... an organic suggestion.) Each time there is a battle, wait until near the end and have the whole party come in and finish of ALL survivors of the winning side. Do this a couple times, then when everyone is nervous and suspicous suggest to all the most powerful houses that another powerful house has been manipulating houses to fighting and then finishing them off, and they are net. Do this many times. Soon, there will be a massive power vaccum and eventually there may be a civil war. Assassinate leaders whenever one group in the civil war is getting the upperhand to make sure no one wins definitively. You want the war going on as long as possible.

Finally, when the city is at it's weakest, go to one of the Drows major enemies in the Underdark, (there are plenty,) and sell out the Drow providing definitive evidence that the most powerful houses are all very weak and that a good chunk of the houses are wiped out. Offer to help those Drow enemies destroy the Drow for a fee and engage in the massive battle. Looting a whole Drow city would be enough to make an entire small army rich. Now, a species might not be willing to piss off Lolth even if they know they could beat the Drow city. Clever manipulation might push someone over the edge, though.
Meanwhile, send the other party members who aren't trying to manipulate the Drow enemies into the Underdark to lure as many powerful creatures as possible into the Drow city to wreck havoc and keep the city even MORE disorganized. The city will be heavily warded, but with the weakened city you may find some paths to lead monsters into it.

This would be... challenging to pull off. VERY challenging. It probably wouldn't work. But were I to try something as suicidal as wiping out a Drow city, this is how I would do it.

What?
argagadfgadfhadfhafdh

[SowZ]

What?
argagadfgadfhadfhafdh

You want to kill the Drow, you can't kill them one at a time. You also aren't going to kill them as a species. Your only hope of killing the Drow without a united force of all the worlds armies is to kill them one major city at a time. Let their own cruelty destroy them from within by provoking civil wars.

Because you can't hurt Lolth until the Drow are pushed to near extinction. As long as she has that juicy worship, your players aren't ever going to even scratch her.

[Timeless Error]

You want to kill the Drow, you can't kill them one at a time. You also aren't going to kill them as a species. Your only hope of killing the Drow without a united force of all the worlds armies is to kill them one major city at a time. Let their own cruelty destroy them from within by provoking civil wars.

Because you can't hurt Lolth until the Drow are pushed to near extinction. As long as she has that juicy worship, your players aren't ever going to even scratch her.

I'm pretty sure faceroll is the DM, not a player.

(I'm afraid I don't have anything meaningful to contribute to the conversation, other than that.)

[Greenish]

And the players don't sound the type to pull off such manipulations, even if they somehow could go around casting Suggestion on Drow House matriarchs.

[faceroll]

You want to kill the Drow, you can't kill them one at a time. You also aren't going to kill them as a species. Your only hope of killing the Drow without a united force of all the worlds armies is to kill them one major city at a time. Let their own cruelty destroy them from within by provoking civil wars.

Because you can't hurt Lolth until the Drow are pushed to near extinction. As long as she has that juicy worship, your players aren't ever going to even scratch her.

/facepalm

I'm the DM, bro.


And the players don't sound the type to pull off such manipulations, even if they somehow could go around casting Suggestion on Drow House matriarchs.

Yeah, my players aren't... really the brightest. In my experience as DM, no one likes sandbox, either. Like, ever. Everyone's looking for golden exclamation points and linear quests. I feel like the Drow are too complex for a group that takes everything an NPC says at face value.

[Greenish]

Have the drow kill them off one by one 'till they wise up.

[SowZ]

/facepalm

I'm the DM, bro.



Yeah, my players aren't... really the brightest. In my experience as DM, no one likes sandbox, either. Like, ever. Everyone's looking for golden exclamation points and linear quests. I feel like the Drow are too complex for a group that takes everything an NPC says at face value.

Oh, well, I don't know, then. You seem like your predictions/plans on how the Drow would react to the party if they made enemies of the Drow is pretty accurate. The only way to beat the Drow is to be more sneaky, subtle, and creative then they are...


Yeah, my players aren't... really the brightest. In my experience as DM, no one likes sandbox, either. Like, ever. Everyone's looking for golden exclamation points and linear quests. I feel like the Drow are too complex for a group that takes everything an NPC says at face value.

Hmmm. Yeah, Drow might be a little much. Especially since you don't just fight them in an encounter and be done with it. Make enemies of a house and it will keep on a comin'. I personally like sandbox and enjoy trying crazy things like my plan above. But, you know, I die a lot...

[Ernir]

Drow are powerful, smart, and devious.

They are also treacherous and self-serving. If there's a group of drow tasked with killing the PCs, one of the drow might deliberately alert the PCs of the presence of the other drow, if it is somehow more advantageous for that drow to return home alone than to return victorious. They might try a plan that has a higher chance of failing, but a lower chance of the drow dying if they fail, such as poisoning the PCs' food.

I feel like the Drow are too complex for a group that takes everything an NPC says at face value.
Make the lies simple, then.

Drow says he's going to do x.
Drow then does x*(-1).

[Vandicus]

Even Drow don't have an abundance of high level wizards and clerics. I'd guess the Drow really wouldn't send out the big guns unless they believed it was absolutely necessary, especially with the threat of another house attacking them while their grand poobah of wizardry is away assassinating a party of adventurers. Start with a group of moderately competent rogues with poison on everything(make it good poison too), who sneak into their tavern room and try to assassinate them. As sneaky and clever as the drow are, hubris is their weakness, and remember that when having the drow send out their first few forces to deal with the heroes. Also, have the secondary and tertiary forces begin to leave traps around the area where the heroes rest if the heroes find a magical/nonmagical way to avoid being caught with their pants down again.

[faceroll]

Drow are powerful, smart, and devious.

They are also treacherous and self-serving. If there's a group of drow tasked with killing the PCs, one of the drow might deliberately alert the PCs of the presence of the other drow, if it is somehow more advantageous for that drow to return home alone than to return victorious. They might try a plan that has a higher chance of failing, but a lower chance of the drow dying if they fail, such as poisoning the PCs' food.

The PCs can handle straight up battles fairly well, even against multiple casters of their level or higher. I'm more worried that stuff like poisoning them, manipulating alliances, etc, is going to throw them for a loop. They're fairly ill-equipped to handle Drow stuff like that. Not that the characters lack the abilities or resources, but because my players might be retarded.


Make the lies simple, then.

Drow says he's going to do x.
Drow then does x*(-1).

Here's the thing, though. Drow go for super convoluted plots. The players are going to end up chasing Orcus or the Scarlet Brotherhood or any of 1,000 other evil factions if they never try to discern the truthiness of what they're being told by King Shill, Baron Pawn, Traitorous Vizier or Drow Agent in Obvious Disguise.

The campaign arc involves a renegade Drow matriarch organizing frost, fire, and hill giants to attack a small human kingdom so the matriarch can seize control of the area so Lolth can't steal it in a bubble. Meanwhile, Lolth's agents are marshaling other monstrous creatures to create enough chaos so she can steal the world of Oerth. But all that is a plot in a plot, because the renegade matriarch is trying to curry favor with Grazz't so she can later betray him in furthering the nefarious multiverse spanning schemes of her dark mistress. The players think they're dealing with big league stuff, but they're involved in a cosmic game of tiddlywinks.

Maybe, until they start wising up, I should just go for really obvious tropes so they'll realize that they can't trust anyone.


Even Drow don't have an abundance of high level wizards and clerics. I'd guess the Drow really wouldn't send out the big guns unless they believed it was absolutely necessary, especially with the threat of another house attacking them while their grand poobah of wizardry is away assassinating a party of adventurers. Start with a group of moderately competent rogues with poison on everything(make it good poison too), who sneak into their tavern room and try to assassinate them. As sneaky and clever as the drow are, hubris is their weakness, and remember that when having the drow send out their first few forces to deal with the heroes. Also, have the secondary and tertiary forces begin to leave traps around the area where the heroes rest if the heroes find a magical/nonmagical way to avoid being caught with their pants down again.

Every resource on the Drow I've read has them absolutely swimming in high level characters. The resources they have access to is staggering, and this module takes the players directly into conflict with the demon bitch herself.

A minor drow matriarch, appointed by Lolth to do something, is going to try and execute it competently, because failure means getting turned into a Drider or being made a slave. Death's pretty bad, too, but there are far worse things in the depraved world of the Drow. Like Human Centipede level stuff. And their afterlife is like that turned up to 11.

I am fairly certain using only the PHB, the party could easily be ganked by a level 9 Drow kill team composed of vanilla fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric. The party's avg level is 11, and there are 6 of them. The issue is that they sleep in the open and have no way of detecting an invisible, silenced squad of Drow.

[Acanous]

do it anyway. You've gotta play the drow straight. Either your players will learn to play better, or they'll start to hate and fear drow (Like everyone else).

Possibly both. It can serve as an abject lesson in taking proper defensive measures, or it can serve as a lesson on when to cut and run.

[FMArthur]

I think you've discovered firsthand how dangerous offensive Drow tactics are. This thread is already on the right track for showing how hideously poor they are at defense - one of the reasons Drow can only exist by pure fiat. Roleplaying them per their fluff is makes them hilariously treacherous. Drow are so ready to turn on one another and so confident in their race's superiority that the greater number present, the more dangerous they are to themselves. A group of Drow warriors would immediately turn on one another as enemies if an unseen attack occurs in anywhere they would consider a safe zone, for example. They're only using to fighting the monsters of the underdark and other Drow; if they have spellcasters present, casting a spell on them from hiding is basically a coup in a can. And while it's easiest to play them reactive to players' actions, any of this can just happen on its own as well.

[faceroll]

I think you've discovered firsthand how dangerous offensive Drow tactics are. This thread is already on the right track for showing how hideously poor they are at defense - one of the reasons Drow can only exist by pure fiat. Roleplaying them per their fluff is makes them hilariously treacherous. Drow are so ready to turn on one another and so confident in their race's superiority that the greater number present, the more dangerous they are to themselves. A group of Drow warriors would immediately turn on one another as enemies if an unseen attack occurs in anywhere they would consider a safe zone, for example. They're only using to fighting the monsters of the underdark and other Drow; if they have spellcasters present, casting a spell on them from hiding is basically a coup in a can. And while it's easiest to play them reactive to players' actions, any of this can just happen on its own as well.

Sure, if the players knew any of that, it'd be great. But I fear that their first experience with actual drow murder squads (as opposed to hired agents) is going to end up requiring a lot of diamonds.

[KillianHawkeye]

Then don't jump straight to murder. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, sure, if Lolth hands down a decree to kill the PCs, the priestesses are gonna use the full means at their disposal to do it.

If that's not the case, then the drow wouldn't really resort to such measures. Living prisoners are so much more useful and interesting, after all. I suggest taking a look at your NPCs and coming up with a reason why SOME INDIVIDUAL DROW might find the PCs useful. There's gotta be somebody who can see a reason to keep them alive. They might need a pawn for one of their plots, or they're looking for capable slaves, or they like how the PCs have been messing up stuff for a rival house. Could be almost anything. Remember, even amongst drow who are loyal to one another, individuals will still try to turn any situation to their own advantage first.

So a more likely scenario is the party wakes up in a drow slave pen with no equipment, or as "private guests" of someone who has an offer they can't refuse. If getting to your PCs is so easy, something like this will happen well before they get a kill order put on them.

[Arbane]

Do the PCs have any other enemies? Ones slightly less insta-death but just as dishonorable? Have THEM try to kill the PCs in their sleep, slightly less effectively. More than once, if needed.

That ought to get them started.

[marcielle]

Lifetime enslavement is more common than grabbing someone for a few jobs. Unless you are Jarlaxle. But then again, he's a pirate.
Sure they have IMMENSE resources, but they are usually aimed at each other. If you wanna throw a big group at the players ot teach them a lesson and then forget about it, it's pretty easy to say that the house after them was destroyed since they sent too many of their best agents out too far. Or, heck, maybe one of the top houses just destroyed them out of sheer paranoia.
Don't forget that besides being slightly weaker in light, they are actually TERRIFIED of it. They won't even risk being within an hour of dawn. An entire army was routed by the sunrise.
Also, IIRC they prefer SLEEPING poison by default. Even on assassinations. They'll just coup them later if that's the case.

[Slipperychicken]

my players might be retarded.




Perhaps you could have some trusted NPC(s) warn them about "disappearances" of Lolths enemies. No one sees the her assassins enter or leave. They are rumored to be the Most Dangerose Elite Assassins Evar, so the NPC's guess (or a knowledge check) is that they use highly potent magic to remain unseen and unheard (and like all stereotypical assassins, attack at night). If that, coupled with enough "rumors" of the INSANE **** Drow do to their captives (graphic description, maybe they meet a survivor?), doesn't get your PCs to at least try to prepare, they really do deserve being human-centipeded/re-rolling.

[BobVosh]

Players should be punished for their stupidity.

It is your job, no your duty, NO! YOUR PRIVILEGE to punish them!

[Tvtyrant]

Have an Ithiliad approach them with an offer to make a joint assault on the Drow city. If the party trusts them the Mindflayers actually come through, but the party has to kill someone important to prove themselves an ally (in too deep syndrome). The party thus has to deal with greater/lesser wevils, trust issues, and deal with assassination. Glowing exclamation point that the part cannot intuitively trust!

[Hazzardevil]

Have an Ithiliad approach them with an offer to make a joint assault on the Drow city. If the party trusts them the Mindflayers actually come through, but the party has to kill someone important to prove themselves an ally (in too deep syndrome). The party thus has to deal with greater/lesser wevils, trust issues, and deal with assassination. Glowing exclamation point that the part cannot intuitively trust!

If they are willing to trust and Mindflayer then there is something seriously wrong already.
Presuming they do the sane thing and kill the Mindflayer, send a Duergar, those are slightly more reasonable to send.

[Daftendirekt]

The party thus has to deal with greater/lesser wevils, trust issues, and deal with assassination.

To the lesser of two weevils!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bR6jwDPKQGU/TTyR0qB1GhI/AAAAAAAABuw/XMncrsg-cYk/s1600/Jack%2BAubrey.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Tvtyrant]

To the lesser of two weevils!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bR6jwDPKQGU/TTyR0qB1GhI/AAAAAAAABuw/XMncrsg-cYk/s1600/Jack%2BAubrey.jpg

Sorry, couldn't resist.

The movie is good, but the books are just straight awesome. Also, that man is too small to be Aubrey! He isn't even fat!