Warlock pacts

[Ghastly]

Just a quick question, does anything mention what kind of creatures a warlock can form a pact with? WoTC says Malkizid (formerly Correllon Larethian's solar, now an archdevil) made packs with a few fey'ri, and that I understand, but they also say Wendonai (A balor, who orchestrated the fall of the Dark Elves in Forgotten Realms) has a few pacts of his own. Can pacts also be formed with gods (one can argue that's what clerics are, but still)?

[gorfnab]

This is the D&D 3.X/Pathfinder/D20 forum. I think you want the 4.0 Forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58).

[MesiDoomstalker]

This is the D&D 3.X/Pathfinder/D20 forum. I think you want the 4.0 Forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=58).

No, Warlocks in 3.x make pacts to obtain their powers. It even goes to mention that they don't have to be from evil sources. And to OP, the difference between gods granting cleric spellcasting and making a pact with a warlock for his power is the end result. Prepared Divine casting with a large list vs. unlimited arcane "casting" with a small list.

[Ghastly]

I know the difference in the end result. :P

With regards to non-evil powers, the invocation list and the Enlightened Spirit prestige class don't entirely support that, but if there was a list of "good" (morally speaking, not in quality/power :P) invocations, I would be very interested in reading.

[Amnestic]

No, Warlocks in 3.x make pacts to obtain their powers.

Some Warlocks do. Others, it was a matter of a birthright. Not all Warlocks make that pact. Hell, for some it's not a matter of birthright at all.



Background: Warlocks are born, not made. Some are the descendants of people who trafficked with demons and devils long ago. Some seek out the dark powers as youth, driven by ambition or the desire for power, but a few blameless individuals are simply marked by the supernatural forces as conduits and tools.

[IthroZada]

Some Warlocks do. Others, it was a matter of a birthright. Not all Warlocks make that pact. Hell, for some it's not a matter of birthright at all.

That last sentence makes their alignment prerequisites sort of pointless.

[Amnestic]

That last sentence makes their alignment prerequisites sort of pointless.

Yes. Yes it does. Bards have an equally pointless alignment pre-req. Any DM enforcing them...should probably be sat and talked with about why it's a silly idea.

[Drglenn]

That last sentence makes their alignment prerequisites sort of pointless.
Alignment prerequisites are sort of pointless in general.

But yea, to the OP: ask your DM, its his/her setting, or (if you are the GM) do what you want. You do not have to stick rigidly to the fluff given.

[MeeposFire]

Alignment prerequisites are sort of pointless in general.

But yea, to the OP: ask your DM, its his/her setting, or (if you are the GM) do what you want. You do not have to stick rigidly to the fluff given.

To many people alignment is pointless in general.

[Socratov]

Some Warlocks do. Others, it was a matter of a birthright. Not all Warlocks make that pact. Hell, for some it's not a matter of birthright at all.

well, you could choose to make a pact with some outsider, but that could be any outsider (same as ancestry). Last dungeon I rolled up a warlock with bralani ancestry (CG ousider). You could even go as far as renaming the invocations to the fluff of your outsider/pact maker

[Milo v3]

Complete Mage has a section on this, here is a list of the types of creatures that are the most common at making Pacts.
Devils
Demons
Fey
Slaadi
Celestials

But it also says that a Warlock can get is powers from his bloodline like a sorcerer and even talks about Draconic Warlocks.

[Fouredged Sword]

I could see an awsome game with a warlock that made an unbreakable pact with an Eternal or some other being of pure Law.

lawful nuteral agent of a extra planer power for the win!

[Ghastly]

Complete Mage has a section on this, here is a list of the types of creatures that are the most common at making Pacts.
Just just looked through and can't find that in either Complete Mage or Complete Arcane.

But yea, to the OP: ask your DM, its his/her setting, or (if you are the GM) do what you want. You do not have to stick rigidly to the fluff given.

Well, not really doing a campaign, I was going to write a story set in Forgotten Realms. The bad guy's dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) (read; not actual dragon) was going to be a hellfire warlock.

[hangedman1984]

But it also says that a Warlock can get is powers from his bloodline like a sorcerer and even talks about Draconic Warlocks.

i've actually been considering just combining sorcerer and warlock into one class with the flavour of sorcerer and the crunch of warlocks.

[Fouredged Sword]

One could grant sorcerer casting to a warlock and it would be a solidly powerful tier two build, but would still be playable in games with high op wizards and clerics.

[Turion]

Just just looked through and can't find that in either Complete Mage or Complete Arcane.


It's on pages 7 and 8.

[Ghastly]

Ah, thanks. It's still somewhat unclear how these pacts actually work. It says a cornugon (while a decent enough devil, in strength) can make a pact, and what happens when a Warlock hits epic levels and can channel more power than the cornugon he's technically getting the power from? o.O

[FMArthur]

As I understand it the creatures themselves draw power from their planes, greater creatures and sometimes other things. So while your connection with the creature is why you have your power (the "on" switch), the power source itself is either you or the source that those creatures and those like it draw from. Warlock fluff is intentionally vague in this regard to allow for a wider diversity in character concepts.

[Ghastly]

As I understand it the creatures themselves draw power from their planes, greater creatures and sometimes other things. So while your connection with the creature is why you have your power (the "on" switch), the power source itself is either you or the source that those creatures and those like it draw from. Warlock fluff is intentionally vague in this regard to allow for a wider diversity in character concepts.
Ah, makes sense (as much sense as D&D ever has, anyway :P). What happens if a warlock was to kill the creature he made a pact with? Switch turns off?

[FMArthur]

Ah, makes sense (as much sense as D&D ever has, anyway :P). What happens if a warlock was to kill the creature he made a pact with? Switch turns off?

It's pretty much an unsolved mystery by the rules, but by fantasy story convention I would say that you learn that you never needed their dark influence all along and you grow a little as a person. :smallbiggrin:

[Cerlis]

i'd think it would be more of a "Your body has been a conduit for this energy for so long, you can channel it as if it where your own power". bascially the same concept of a creature becoming what it uses.like how an elemental savant becomes an "elemental".


Yes. Yes it does. Bards have an equally pointless alignment pre-req. Any DM enforcing them...should probably be sat and talked with about why it's a silly idea.


And i've heard all the reasons for disregarding stuff like that, and they are just as silly as the reasons for enforcing it. Let people play how they want.

[ZealPaladin]

Ah, makes sense (as much sense as D&D ever has, anyway :P). What happens if a warlock was to kill the creature he made a pact with? Switch turns off?

I ran a campaign where we had this issue. One of the PCs was a Warlock who had gained his powers from a Balor. However, he grew to shun his evil ways and even killed the Balor who granted his powers. I ruled that, at that point, his powers were under his control (like a sorcerer controls and develops their inborn powers) and he no longer needed this Balor to develop them.

Or, you can rule (as people have suggested) that a Warlock's power truly originates from certain planes, and that a pact with an outsider is all it takes for the Warlock to channel the power of that plane.

[MeeposFire]

It could also be that once marked you can no longer free yourself. It shall forever dominate your destiny. Even if the being wanted to revoke it he can't it is a Pandoras Box.

[Ghastly]

That would be an interesting way of looking at it.

Also, one last thing that bugged me is the lack of support for good-aligned (celestial pact) warlocks. They have a single prestige class and that seems specifically for demonic pacts. The most we can do is rename/refluff invocations. It seems like they wanted to add more for them in general, but never got around to it.

[Yorrin]

Yeah... sadly WotC seems to have a strong desire for Warlocks to be the villains. If you want to play a LG warlock.... you play a dragonfire adept. It sucks, but that's the official line, apparently.

[Big Fau]

Yeah... sadly WotC seems to have a strong desire for Warlocks to be the villains. If you want to play a LG warlock.... you play a dragonfire adept. It sucks, but that's the official line, apparently.

Not entirely. Theres nothing enforcing the "Any Chaotic or Evil" line, and WotC has printed a LG Warlock in CM.

[Ghastly]

Not entirely. Theres nothing enforcing the "Any Chaotic or Evil" line, and WotC has printed a LG Warlock in CM.
Said LG warlock uses a prestige class whose tagline is "Although the fiendish origins of the warlock's power can't be denied, he need not fully embrace the darkness," and this is indeed in the same book that said they can make a pact with celestials.

[Kaje]

i've actually been considering just combining sorcerer and warlock into one class with the flavour of sorcerer and the crunch of warlocks.

They made one of those already. It's in Dragon Magic.

[hangedman1984]

They made one of those already. It's in Dragon Magic.

not all sorcerer's necessarily get there powers from a draconic source

[ZealPaladin]

not all sorcerer's necessarily get there powers from a draconic source

While this is true, most settings usually typecast Sorcerers as having Draconic heritage. After all, the PHB is very suggestive of the fact that Sorcerers are descendants of dragons, and there are multiple feats available with special benefits for sorcerers (such as Draconic Heritage, Flight, Skin, and Legacy, to name a few that come to mind). And it's difficult for me to see Sorcerers getting power from another source without confusing them with Warlocks (or, at least, without having my players confuse them with warlocks).

[hangedman1984]

And it's difficult for me to see Sorcerers getting power from another source without confusing them with Warlocks (or, at least, without having my players confuse them with warlocks).

and thats why in this hypothetical game the two would be one and the same

[ZealPaladin]

and thats why in this hypothetical game the two would be one and the same

Good point. Would they reflect more of the current 3.5e warlock, or the current sorcerer?

[Ghastly]

Also, another question, are Warlocks subject to antimagic fields, and do they count as arcane (in fluff, anyway, like how spells in general are separated into arcane, divine, psionic? Or could they be thought of in a fourth category)?

[IthroZada]

Also, another question, are Warlocks subject to antimagic fields, and do they count as arcane (in fluff, anyway, like how spells in general are separated into arcane, divine, psionic? Or could they be thought of in a fourth category)?

Spell like abilities, which invocations are, are subject to antimagic field. Warlock abilities are arcane, and subject to arcane spell failure with armor, except light armor.

[MeeposFire]

Yes while in an AMF you will be nearly useless until you escape. Sad but true.

[Ghastly]

Yes while in an AMF you will be nearly useless until you escape. Sad but true.
Unless you're in Forgotten Realms, are building that Warlock/Cleric prestige class and snag the Initiate of Mystra feat. That may or may not be optimized, though. :P

[MeeposFire]

Unless you're in Forgotten Realms, are building that Warlock/Cleric prestige class and snag the Initiate of Mystra feat. That may or may not be optimized, though. :P

Hmm I did not think of looking to see if that would work I admit. If it does then 99% of the time warlocks are useless in an AMF.

[Ghastly]

Also, last question I can think of, are there any decent homebrew invocations floating around?

[AirPeach]

Okay, on the subject of Homebrew Invos; here's a nice one that I made (Similar, or even identical to a lot of other homebrews, however. Great minds think alike!)

Hideous Shot
Least; 1st, Blast Shape
As a standard action, you may make an attack with a ranged or thrown weapon. If the attack hits, add your eldritch blast damage to the damage, even if the attack deals no damage but applies another effect, such as a thunderstone.
--

It's a reasonable trade-off, really: Trade your Touch AC to hit for a Standard AC to hit with some bonus damage/an unavailable eldritch blast effect.

[Psyren]

Yeah... sadly WotC seems to have a strong desire for Warlocks to be the villains. If you want to play a LG warlock.... you play a dragonfire adept. It sucks, but that's the official line, apparently.

Warlocks can be CG, and even CN can be heroic in the right circumstances.

[Ghastly]

Hideous Shot isn't too bad. Far sight better than Hideous Blow. Also noticed the homebrewed Power Sources thread.