"Extra Credits" quits the Escapist

[Psyren]

I Googled GitP for another thread on this but couldn't find one, so here goes.

So apparently there is a huge and rather ugly fight going on between the Extra Credits crew and the Escapist, and the upshot is that the EC crew is heading for greener pastures. This post (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.305970-Extra-Credits-leaves-the-Escapist-UPDATED-WITH-REPLY) from the Escapist thread shows the tweets from both sides, but I'll quote it here in case it "mysteriously vanishes."


Hi all, these have been spoilered (it's a word now) because it was getting to be a pain for people to read.

From the EC FB page


"Hi Guys
I’m sorry about a lot of things over the last month. I’m sorry that I’ve been incommunicative. I’m sorry that I’ve been snappish. I’m sorry that I haven’t talked to you about what’s been going on. It’s been a rough few weeks, but I can finally talk about it, so here’s what’s been happening with us…
(this may take a bit, I'm sorry for spamming you too...)"



When Allison hurt her arm all I wanted was to help her. I believe that a person has a responsibility to those near them and you should feel shame when you can’t live up to that responsibility…but I couldn’t. I was near destitute. I had spent all my money on the show.



"Dan and I work on it for free and I pay Allison’s salary out of pocket each month, then, in turn, The Escapist was supposed to pay us for our work - not much, but enough to cover Allison’s wages - unfortunately they were never able to."


"When Allison hurt her arm, The Escapist had only paid us for four episodes over the course of a year. That meant I was down $20,000. That was the $20,000 I could have put in to help Allison. That was the $20,000 I would have used to get her surgery while figuring out how I could earn more money. It hurt that I couldn’t tell you that then but I was asked not to."


"I felt so bad asking without being able to do more than sell a computer and call in old debts…but you taught me a lesson in humanity and the goodness of people. I had never lost my faith in mankind, but that first Rockethub week you redoubled it.

And that was truly one of the greatest weeks of my life. Better than releasing games, better than lecturing in the halls of GDC. I really can never say thank you enough."


"But since then things have not gone so well. We joined The Escapist because we believed in what was going on there. We believed in the idea of examining games more thoroughly, whether it was Yahtzee’s blunt honesty or ENN delivering game news, we liked the idea that it was a place where consumers and developers could have a real conversation about games. We believed we were all in this together, fighting for the same ideals and goals."


"We asked the guys at The Escapist if we could trade some of the debt they owed us for the rights to our intellectual property back if they weren’t going to be able to pay us so we could do things like sell t-shirts or write a book. We thought this was going to be an easy discussion. Instead they responded by telling us that they felt that they were entitled to 75% of the Rockethub money, thus their debt was covered and, despite not paying us for nearly a year, we owed them $9500 dollars"


"What followed was weeks of legal wrangling, lies and muck. Unless you guys really care about the details I won’t go over them here. I do think The Escapist does some good, and I wouldn’t want to destroy what good it does with how they operate their business. I’m going to work under the idea that our situation was unique and that their other content creators are paid regularly and don’t have a contract that was as onerous as ours."

"Again: we don’t want to add to the damage done. I’m already kind of heartbroken that things turned out this way. I had faith in what The Escapist stood for. That faith is in tatters, but it doesn’t mean that there aren’t good people doing good things for The Escapist."



And the response



A Response on Extra Credits
Hey guys. This is Alexander Macris. I'm the publisher. Jame's statements are very one-sided so I think they deserve a response. Yes, we are having a very unfortunate dispute with James over Extra Credits, and yes, he's planning to leave The Escapist, despite our repeated requests that he stay. It's also true that we fell behind in paying James. Here are the key facts as I see them:

1. From November 2010 to June 2011, James told us not to worry about paying him and to focus on paying other people. His exact words were "I really don’t want to squeeze you guys if you’re in a crunch, so you can put us to the bottom of the list for right now…" Given that we have been in a crunch due to the recession, we took him at his word, thanked him profusely for the flexibility, and focused on paying down other debt. (Several other shows were cancelled around November 2010 you'll recall, as we couldn't pay them, but James' flexibility allowed us to keep working with him to promote Extra Credits.)

2. This continued until June 2011, when James emailed us to alert us that he needed funds urgently. The request was partly for family matters and partly for Allison's surgery. He asked for our permission to raise funds through Kickstarter. We more than gave permission, we threw our weight into supporting it. Unfortunately, Kickstarter refused because they don't do charity. I then suggested James try RocketHub and RocketHub agreed. We again collaborated to make it a joint effort. Our agreement was that we would be compensated for the wholesale cost of the t-shirts and Publisher's Club, and that the funds would be used to save Extra Credits. I reasonably interpreted "save Extra Credits" to mean that anything beyond what was needed for Allison's surgery would be used on Extra Credits production. I also Pay-palled James as much money as we had available at that time.

3. After the RocketHub was enormously successful and James had decided to use the funds to create an indie publishing label rather than to "save Extra Credits", James decided he would no longer speak to us directly and instead assigned a "business development manager" to speak to us. James' new business development manager demanded that we assign all the IP of Extra Credits to James.

4. We indicated we would be happy to work out an IP transfer but that before we did that, we would like to make sure we got paid for the wholesale cost of the t-shirts and the Publisher's Club memberships, and that we would like to see the Extra Credits RocketHub money used to create more Extra Credits. We did NOT ask that James send us $9,500 - we said he should use $9,500 to create more episodes of the show that the money was supposed to be used to save.

5. James' business development manager at that time emailed me and told us that his position was now that we had no rights to the show, no deal, and that our entire contract was invalid. This was out of the blue as far as we were concerned. We had no understanding at this time of James' intent to use the "Save Extra Credits" money to start a publishing business.

6. At this point, Russ Pitts, our editor in chief, flew out to meet with James and his business development manager personally. They agreed that we would continue to work together; that we would transfer the IP to James in exchange for some fee to be negotiated; and that James would handle the EC t-shirts directly rather than through us. We agreed to swallow the cost of the Publisher's Club memberships, a few thousand dollars.

7. I then emailed James and his business development manager to explain that I wanted to get them paid as quickly as possible so that the back debt was not a sticking point in negotiations. I then emailed them again to say that I had talked to our Board and investors and that payment would come in about a week.

8. At this point, James had his lawyer send us an email stating that we were in breach and that unless we sent money more quickly than I had just stated we'd be able to send it, that James was terminating his relationship with us. I presume that James thought we were playing games with him, although we were not.

9. We went ahead and mailed James the money we got from our investors the next week as we had promised. James' lawyer nevertheless sent us an email indicating they intended to terminate our agreement. 10. Finally, I should add that as of last week, we had paid James over $14,000 of the $20,000 we owed him, and that as of today, our company has mailed James all payments he is owed. I have all of this documented extensively in email. James is simply in error if he believes we have ever lied to him or any of his staff. We are prepared to defend ourselves against future defamation in a court of law.

Cordial regards,
Alexander Macris



Seriously, Shame on you people. That last bit is me speaking, not from EC, but seriously. SHAME ON YOU. I'm certainly not renewing my pubclub membership after this.


Where do The Escapist get the brass monkeys to suggest that they were instrumental in helping EC with the Rockethub initiative?
"we told them to use Rh" isn't the same as "yeah, we did practically 3/4 of the total effort"



Here's a list of former contributors who didn't get paid either.

From @ExtraCreditz on Twitter


<i>List compiled from the other thread of this nature in Gaming Discussion.</i>
The writer of Name Game
Jimtopia of Creature Castor Monsters, who was paid but it took about six months.
Allistair Pinsof, who apparently wrote for the site a while ago. Not sure what though, if someone knows feel free to let me know.
MovieBob as well. Pretty sure you all him.
JP Sherman, writer of the marketing columns.*
And the guys behind Drinking Games and No Right Answer are saying that they seem to be heading down a similar route.
Robert Moran, creator of Unforgotten Realms evidently left the site after six months of non-payments. Took him 14 months to get fully paid.
Lisa Foiles of Top 5 fame has come forward and heavily implied the same.

Screenshots of the EC tweets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsm5R-Gz0Yo)

I'm really sad over this; it's like watching your parents fight or some other equally horrific metaphor. I think the Escapist is more in the wrong for even wanting to touch the arm-money in the first place, though. Hopefully they get their act together, because as things stand all they'll really have left are Yahtzee and Critical Miss if this keeps up.

Anyway, share your thoughts, and if there's already a thread on this that I couldn't locate the mods are free to merge/delete etc.

[Axolotl]

So despite all the ads they've been cramming on the site they still don't pay the people who are the whole reason to go to the site?

I wasn't the biggest fan of the Escapist before but I'd always liked Extra Credits and I'd at least assumed that the contributers at least got payed.

[Ravens_cry]

I enjoy a lot of the features on the Escapist. Extra Credits is one, Zero Punctuation, Extra Punctuation, Check for Traps, Experienced Points, Movie Bob: The Big Picture are others. It doesn't pander to publishers or developers and it can be a source of some mighty fine entertainment and ideas.
Basically, I like the site. On the surface this looks rather disappointing to put it mildly.
All in all though, I really don't want to choose sides in this until some cooler heads can get together and explain to us not initiated in the mysteries of legalese, what the flaming <expletive redacted/> just happened and, hopefully, why.

[Psyren]

They probably hold off on paying everyone else so they can pay their real cash cow (Yahtzee.)

And at least this mess helps explain Lisa Foiles' absence. :smallannoyed:

[Somebloke]

They sure as hell seem to be haemorrhaging talent lately.

[drakir_nosslin]

They sure as hell seem to be haemorrhaging talent lately.

Which is a shame. Pretty much the only reason I go to the Escapist is to watch EC, ZP and Movie Bob (+ the big picture of course), if they loose EC... Well, that wouldn't be much fun at all.

[Cespenar]

It was probably the lawyers of both side that riled everyone up and escalated the situation. /groundlesstheory

[Psyren]

They sure as hell seem to be haemorrhaging talent lately.

That tends to happen when the talent works for free, unfortunately...

[Trazoi]

I only occasionally check The Escapist and haven't seen Extra Credits, but ouch. That doesn't look good.

Without knowing exactly what agreements were made it's hard to say who is in the "right". But either way if the Escapist admits they're in the financial position where they couldn't pay a key contributor for eight months... it's hard to think they're going to be around for much longer. :smalleek:

[erikun]

As I understand it:

The Escapist was due the money for the t-shirts/Publisher's Club stuff.

The Extra Credits gang was due money from nearly a year of work, which likely covered far more than the whole t-shirt expenses.

The Escapist was never entitled to the "save Extra Credits" money. They may wish to work with Extra Credits to keep it with the Escapist (for obvious reasons) but that doesn't mean that the extra donated money, given specifically to the EC guys and not the Escapist, should be spent as the Escapist chooses.

Hopefully, this is more lawyers wagging their law degrees than anything else. I do like Extra Credits, so the idea that they will keep on producing episodes (although showing them somewhere else) is potential good news. It's kind of murky to tell who is fully "in the wrong", but at least it sounds like the Escapist was overstepping themselves a bit - and the EC people grabbing a lawyer was understandable to prevent it.

[Imperial Psycho]

I'm honestly not sure whose side to take. Still, the EC guys say there should still be an episode on youtube tomorrow.

Here is James response to the Escapist post:

linky. (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?created&&note_id=204423762946634&id=127295683982334)

[Tiki Snakes]

I think the key fact here is that they have lost other content creators and there are rumours that they haven't paid several content creators, in a similar manner.

With that in mind, it becomes pretty obvious which side is more likely, sad as that is.

[Psyren]

It's just amazing how money can ruin friendships like this. Escapist could have even gone on not paying them had they not gotten greedy for the Rockethub money and started all this. It physically sickens me.

[Harr]

The situation as I understand it (and I may be off-mark) is:

- Extra Credits was essentially working without being paid for a while and The Escapist owed them about $20,000.

- When Alison hurt her arm and needed surgery, EC asked for that money from Escapist. Escapist essentially said, we can't give it to you yet BUT we will help you advertise a fundraiser.

- The fundraiser went A LOT better than expected raising well in excess of what they needed for the surgery and even after paying back Escapist for T-shirts and Publisher's Club perks used in the drive, they still had a large surplus of money.

At this point, James Portnow had two options:

Option A: To say "Escapist, you guys helped us make this fundraiser, and you are as much to thank for us having this money as our fans are, and therefore we will use this excess money as payment for our Escapist salaries, and so not only are we totally square on the $20,000 debt, there is even more money left over so we will use *that* money to continue paying ourselves to make more episodes for you in the future, for which you will not have to pay either."

Option B: To say "Um yeah sorry Escapist, but while we appreciate the help, the money our fans gave us is our fans' money, not yours, and what we do with it is between them and us. You still owe us $20,000 and will still owe us money for any future episode we make."

The Escapist had assumed as a matter of course that James would go for Option A. He instead opted for Option B, and all hell broke loose.

Personally, had I been in James's position I would have gone for Option A. However, I can't deny that if there is no written contract beforehand, he has the right to Option B if he chooses.

[Somebloke]

Which is a shame. Pretty much the only reason I go to the Escapist is to watch EC, ZP and Movie Bob (+ the big picture of course), if they loose EC... Well, that wouldn't be much fun at all.

Same here. These are pretty much my only draws.

[Trazoi]

Personally, had I been in James's position I would have gone for Option A. However, I can't deny that if there is no written contract beforehand, he has the right to Option B if he chooses.
The impression I get is that the Escapist had already burnt all its goodwill by not paying EC for such a long time. I don't know how the fundraiser was organised or phrased, but Option A would have been essentially a large gift of IP to the Escapist (as well as locking EC's future to them). From the sounds of things the business relationship had already gone too sour for that to be palatable.

It's a mess and it's hard to know who said what to whom, but given the Escapist was eight months behind in pay it's hard not to appoint blame.

[Harr]

From the sounds of things the business relationship had already gone too sour for that to be palatable.


Yeah, it's impossible to really put yourself in someone else's shoes, or to know all the stuff that led up to that point. Possibly an amicable solution was off the table even at that early point (and it certainly is now, I think).

Hope both of them land on their feet since both of them bring their own unique value to the gaming world.

[Psyren]

Option A: To say "Escapist, you guys helped us make this fundraiser, and you are as much to thank for us having this money as our fans are, and therefore we will use this excess money as payment for our Escapist salaries, and so not only are we totally square on the $20,000 debt, there is even more money left over so we will use *that* money to continue paying ourselves to make more episodes for you in the future, for which you will not have to pay either."

"Helped them make the fundraiser?" How? The extent of the Escapist's contribution was along the lines of "Have you guys tried Rockethub?" For that, they wanted to welch on $20,000 of back-pay AND THEN claim that EC owed them $9,500. That really doesn't fly to me.

[Starscream]

I only go to that site once a week to watch ZP, so I don't know too much about Extra Credits or what sort of crisis they faced.

But judging from those messages alone, I have to agree with the consensus that The Escapist is in the wrong here. Of course, this is two factions each giving their own side only, so you have to assume the truth is really somewhere in the middle. But unless the site's "help" on the charity was a lot more than they make it sound like, then they are in the wrong.

If generous fans donated money to Extra Credits, then that money belongs to Extra Credits. It does not belong to The Escapist to pay of their debt to Extra Credits. And it sounds like EC was being reasonable; they didn't demand to be paid what was owed until there was an emergency, and were willing to accept getting the copyright on their work back as an alternative, in the hopes of selling merch.

[Harr]

"Helped them make the fundraiser?" How? The extent of the Escapist's contribution was along the lines of "Have you guys tried Rockethub?" For that, they wanted to welch on $20,000 of back-pay AND THEN claim that EC owed them $9,500. That really doesn't fly to me.

I don't know - what I wrote is what I gather The Escapist was hoping/assuming James would choose to do, going by what I've read about the issue.

Having said that, the more I read the more I fall on EC's side of the whole thing; the biggest factor being the Escapists's insistence on referring to EC's non-profit indie developer fund as a "side-business" or as a "publishing label"... when it's blatantly obvious to anybody who reads the description that neither James nor anyone will ever be receiving a cent of profit from that fund.

There is simply no way in my mind that someone repeatedly referring to said fund in a way that makes it sound like a business startup isn't doing it on purpose to introduce misinformation into the discussion and to muddle the issue in their favor. This makes my sympathy for the Escapist dwindle very, very fast :smallannoyed:

[Reverent-One]

"Helped them make the fundraiser?" How?

By providing Publisher's Club memberships and something to do with the shirts, it seems. Now, I have no idea how much those are worth, so Escapist could easily still be in the wrong, but they at least helped on the fundrasier.

[Tengu_temp]

Well, there goes one of the only two reasons I ever visited Escapist (the other one is Zero Punctuation, obviously). It's a pity this mess happened and I hope Extra Credits will soon find another site willing to host and pay for them. Blistered Thumbs, maybe?

[Comet]

Well, there goes one of the only two reasons I ever visited Escapist (the other one is Zero Punctuation, obviously)

I feel the same same way, though I have an additional reason to visit the site: LoadingReadyRun, even if I still have some trouble seeing them as "one of the Escapist" due to their history striking out on their own. Still, I hope the Escapist gets their act together, since I'd like to see ZP and LRR continue to be financed by them.

Mainly so with ZP, mind, even though I'm pretty sure Yahtzee can find another site to take him aboard if worse comes to worst. Or he could just return to running Fullyramblomatic.
Not going to happen, nor should it, realistically speaking.

[Icewalker]

Looks to me like both sides had an idea of what was going on, neither of their ideas were terribly wrong, but they were different. When tens of thousands of dollars were being moved, they had different expectations, and that miscommunication led to legal action which escalated into a hideous bitter mess on both sides. Who did worse things in said hideous bitter mess? Whatever. I can't say both of them look terribly shining in this situation, as they're both definitely exaggerating for propaganda purposes (Escapist seems to be using misleading choices of words for things like this fund, but meanwhile the Extra Credits folks are clearly also twisting the angle of view, given the quotes the Escapist is showing. Definitely makes it look like a miscommunication at it's base, to me.)

[Weimann]

Personally, had I been in James's position I would have gone for Option A. However, I can't deny that if there is no written contract beforehand, he has the right to Option B if he chooses.I must say that there's no way in hell I'd have chosen option A. First of all, if you have a contract with the Escapist, then it should be the Escapist that pays you. While they were helpful in starting the fundraising, the actual money came from the fans, and that's not the same thing.

[Trazoi]

I must say that there's no way in hell I'd have chosen option A. First of all, if you have a contract with the Escapist, then it should be the Escapist that pays you. While they were helpful in starting the fundraising, the actual money came from the fans, and that's not the same thing.
The way I see it (from a not-a-lawyer, not-really-knowing-what's-going-on outside perspective):

The argument for the Escapist getting their share hinges on exactly what the agreement was between them and EC for running the donation drive. If the Escapist owns the EC IP and agreed to allow t-shirts and subscriptions only for money to pay for the medical bills, they might have a case for having a share of the excess.

However, it was also very clear what EC was planning to do with the surplus money on the donation site. The Escapist is also on shaky grounds by being so far behind in paying their bills; if their contract is invalidated then who owns the IP is a big question.

The huge problem for the Escapist though is it's a PR disaster for them. It's now clear they've not been paying a lot of their contributors in a timely fashion. Frankly they appear to be in dire financial straits, and that's fatal if your income stream depends on people paying for annual subscriptions. I wouldn't bet on them still being around in a year.

[Alchemistmerlin]

There's more things on the Escapist site than just Zero Punctuation?
Hm. Who knew?


I kid.


I'd be interested to see their financials and see who was and was not getting paid, and what their contracts looked like. From my experience this is always what happens when a site starts buying up youtube stars and offers to pay them. Their contracts are always terrible and generally the people being paid are just happy for any money, not paying attention to the legal ramifications.

[Tyndmyr]

I must say that there's no way in hell I'd have chosen option A. First of all, if you have a contract with the Escapist, then it should be the Escapist that pays you. While they were helpful in starting the fundraising, the actual money came from the fans, and that's not the same thing.

Would agree. EC thought they were collecting money for themselves, fans thought the same. Therefore, the Escapist is not a party to the donations. They have no reasonable expectation of getting in on that.

Also, they need to pay their bills. I have little sympathy for them.

[BRC]

from my perspective, the real problem is the Escapist taking something for granted that they probably shouldn't have. As far as I can tell, the EC crew, at one point said "if you are having money troubles, pay the other contributors first, then pay us when you have the money". The Escapist ended up taking this to heart and not paying them at all, which wasn't a huge problem until Allison's arm. After the fundraiser, the Escapist saw the extra money as a way to handle their debt to EC, under the logic of "so long as they get the money". EC saw the money as theirs.

The money was donated to EC, by fans of EC. The question, as I see it, is what is EC. Is it something the EC crew makes, and then sells to the Escapist, or is it something the Escapist pays (theoretically) the EC crew to make.


As for what should be done with the money, I say The Escapist gets the value of the shirts and Pub Club memberships, they still need to pay EC what they owe. The rest of the surplus rockethub money came from the fans to help allison's arm. Since there is money left over let the people who donated vote on how it should be used. While James' use of the money is in the spirit of what EC stands for, I think the people who donated the money should be the ones to decide what It's used for since it already fulfilled the purpose for which it was donated. The Escapist (which comes off more as a well intentioned site trying to find a way out of its money problems than a greedy corporate overlord trying to defraud artists) has no claim to anything beyond the value of the shirts and memberships.

[Psyren]

EC has moved back to Youtube apparently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5rh2OYQLZA

Read the text in the credits at the end for a laugh.

[Friv]

Yikes, it really does look like the Escapist isn't going to be lasting much longer, doesn't it?

I'd have to say, it looks like the Escapist was mostly stupid, rather than malicious, but they were really, really, really stupid. The fact that I came away from their own side of the story thinking that EC was probably in the right wasn't a good sign. The fact that they thought a fundraiser for a specific thing should be used to cover their own debts is even worse. It will be a shame if they die, but that's looking more and more likely.

[Reverent-One]

For those saying how the Escapist was wrong for expecting a fundraiser to cover their debts, you all are taking into account that they provided incentives for that fundraiser that EC agreed to reimbuse them the wholesale price for, right? EC hasn't to my knowledge contested that they agreed to this (though they have contested what the wholesale price should be). If the price of the shirts plus publisher club memberships met or exceeded their debt to EC, then their debts should be covered.

[Lord Seth]

I'd be interested to see their financials and see who was and was not getting paid, and what their contracts looked like. From my experience this is always what happens when a site starts buying up youtube stars and offers to pay them. Their contracts are always terrible and generally the people being paid are just happy for any money, not paying attention to the legal ramifications.I don't know, from what I've heard That Guy With The Glasses treats their members decently. Unless you mean literally "offers to pay them" as in the site pays the members (from my understanding, the members of TGWTG get their money from Blip).

[BRC]

For those saying how the Escapist was wrong for expecting a fundraiser to cover their debts, you all are taking into account that they provided incentives for that fundraiser that EC agreed to reimbuse them the wholesale price for, right? EC hasn't to my knowledge contested that they agreed to this (though they have contested what the wholesale price should be). If the price of the shirts plus publisher club memberships met or exceeded their debt to EC, then their debts should be covered.
Here's the thing, neither EC nor the Escapist expected this to be an issue. They didn't think that the fundraiser would raise enough extra money to bother fighting over. However, they did, and the Escapist tried to use it as an opportunity to get out of their financial troubles. I don't know if they thought they actually deserved the money, or if they just went for it hoping the EC crew would roll over and say yes.

[Trazoi]

Since there is money left over let the people who donated vote on how it should be used. While James' use of the money is in the spirit of what EC stands for, I think the people who donated the money should be the ones to decide what It's used for since it already fulfilled the purpose for which it was donated.
From what I've read, that's exactly what James did as soon as it was clear they'd net more money than they expected.


Here's the thing, neither EC nor the Escapist expected this to be an issue. They didn't think that the fundraiser would raise enough extra money to bother fighting over. However, they did, and the Escapist tried to use it as an opportunity to get out of their financial troubles. I don't know if they thought they actually deserved the money, or if they just went for it hoping the EC crew would roll over and say yes.
I'd usually be in the position of thinking it was a situation where two reasonable parties have had a misunderstanding about the purpose of a donation drive, if it weren't for the Escapist admitting in their own defense that they see nothing wrong with not paying their contributors for over half a year. And it's not just Extra Credits; other contributors have come out saying Escapist has been doing this for years.

[BRC]

I'd usually be in the position of thinking it was a situation where two reasonable parties have had a misunderstanding about the purpose of a donation drive, if it weren't for the Escapist admitting in their own defense that they see nothing wrong with not paying their contributors for over half a year. And it's not just Extra Credits; other contributors have come out saying Escapist has been doing this for years.

The lack of payment is a separate issue from what to do with the donation money, though it IS Very closely related. Just because the Escapist hasn't been paying it's contributors doesn't necessarily mean they are intentionally trying to steal money from the donation drive, as opposed to there being an honest misunderstanding.

The question kind of comes down to, is the Escapist good yet Stupid, or Malicious.
The first version is that the Escapist honestly wants to provide good content to it's readers. However, it has trouble coming up with the money to pay it's contributors, so, rather than be open with it's contributors about it's financial situation, look at it's business plan, and make sure the Contributors are aware that they may not get paid, and thus allow them to re-evaluate if they want to keep contributing. Instead, it has the contributors keep making content, while it keeps putting off payment, planning to pay them "Eventually". They don't think they're doing anything wrong because they simply don't have the money. As they see it, they are doing everything they can to pay their contributors while providing content to their visitors.


The Second version, which I have trouble believing, is that the Escapist is malicious. At some point they realized that their contributors are largely working just to share their work with the world, and probably have alternate sources of income. They then realize that they can get away with not paying their contributors, resulting in free content. They just don't pay contributors until they get fed up and leave, while keeping their top earners (Yahtzee, whoever they have searching the internet for relevant articles) paid.

Now, under the first version, they see Extra Credits as something akin to a Blog they they happen to be hosting. They think that the real Payment is the EC crew getting to share their opinions with the world, and that the money is simply the cost of making that happen, rather than a payment for services rendered.
So, when all this extra money shows up, they say "Hey, Look, lots of money that you can use to make more Extra Credits!". As they saw it, the money was supposed to go to Extra Credits, and they are not buying Extra Credits so much as they are providing the money needed to make it work.
Of course, that's likely just them, being short on money, taking the view that most benefits them.

[Trazoi]

The question kind of comes down to, is the Escapist good yet Stupid, or Malicious.
That's the thing though - it's either incompetence or malice, and neither looks good for the Escapist.

[Psyren]

From what I've read, that's exactly what James did as soon as it was clear they'd net more money than they expected.

It was, and they communicated this via Facebook, Twitter and even changing the Rockethub landing page. Feedback was hugely positive for the measure and the money kept rolling in.


I'd usually be in the position of thinking it was a situation where two reasonable parties have had a misunderstanding about the purpose of a donation drive, if it weren't for the Escapist admitting in their own defense that they see nothing wrong with not paying their contributors for over half a year. And it's not just Extra Credits; other contributors have come out saying Escapist has been doing this for years.

Exactly; what's worse is, the EC crew have only been able to fight back because they already have legal representation. Johnny Video Game Critic from YouTube who signed a contract with the Escapist and wasn't paid isn't likely to be able to.

[Zain]

I think there may have been some bad will that may have added fuel to flames. On the core issue, as far as I can find, it seems to be a combination of misunderstanding and either Incompetence or Malice on the behalf of the Escapist.

The nub of the issue is the lack of any sort of contract regarding the possibility of an overflow founds from the donation drive. The Escapist seems to have felt that the founds should have been used to pay for the costs of hosting the show, where as The Extra Credits choice to use it to create a sort of game developing Charity Thingy.

Personally, I feel that The Extra credits crew was right to use the founds as they saw fit, and I feel that the Escapist was in the wrong to ask for the Funds. However, I get the felling that leaving the site may be an overreaction.

I'm not gonna comment on the issue of late payment, as I don't have the amount of info I would like to form a opinion on that.

[Lord of Rapture]

That's the thing though - it's either incompetence or malice, and neither looks good for the Escapist.

And oftentimes the difference doesn't matter.

[Tyndmyr]

Personally, I feel that The Extra credits crew was right to use the founds as they saw fit, and I feel that the Escapist was in the wrong to ask for the Funds. However, I get the felling that leaving the site may be an overreaction.

No, leaving a site that fails to pay you and wants to get it's fingers into your money is...completely reasonable.

I'm not sure how much bandwidth they need, but hosting isn't *that* expensive.

[Garwulf]

Hi all,

Well, I'm an Escapist contributor, and the owner of a small publishing company, and I figured I'd add my two cents' worth.

Sadly, when it comes to the money end of it, the Escapist does appear to be earning a reputation for not paying their contributors in a reasonable amount of time. They published one of my pieces in March of this year - I was paid around 110 days later, and that was because at around day 100 I had threatened to consider them in breach of contract and take appropriate action if I wasn't paid by day 120. One contributor told me that he was now budgeting six months for the payment time, and I've heard of one contributor who in July was at eight months and counting.

(To put this into perspective, my little publishing company has printing through Lightning Source and distribution through Ingram, and the wait time for money from wholesaler sales is 90 days. Now, 90 days is reasonable - but on day 91, the money had better be in the mail.)

It wasn't always like this. I can remember back when I started around 2007 or so, and the Escapist was a really good place to write for. They aimed to pay in 30 days, but sometimes that meant within 60. Very clearly, things have changed. And, the day I had to basically threaten legal action to get paid was the day I decided that I wasn't going to write for them any longer.

As far as my theory on it goes, I think they tried to expand too quickly and overextended. When I started out with them, they had a weekly issue of four or five feature articles, and they later added Zero Punctuation. Now, they have their own news writers, numerous video series, and their website is cluttered enough that they don't have room for all their content. AND, they're looking for new news writers...while they have trouble paying their current ones.

Now, as I understand business, and I will grant that I am no top-tier businessman, when you have overextended to the point that you cannot make your commitments, you stop expansion and consolidate. Any deadweight gets removed, you find some additional revenue sources, and once you are back into a profit - or at least have sufficient cashflow to see to your obligations in both the present and the near future - then you can think of expanding again. In the case of the Escapist, I think what happened was that they overextended, and then tried to bring up traffic and funds to the site by expanding further, which just overextended them even more.

Now, I may be wrong here - I am not privy to the Escapist's financials, or its management decisions. But, I have a feeling I've got most of it right. Unfortunately, a lot of the damage has been done. A site like the Escapist relies on content, and if they have a reputation for stiffing their contributors, that content will be difficult to get and keep going. They've got a lot of rebuilding to do.

Best regards to all,

Robert B. Marks

[Psyren]

Thank you for the inside view Robert.

I'm even more convinced that the only one getting paid on time is Yahtzee at this point, and possibly MovieBob.

I don't really want them to die, but a change in management seems in order at the very least.

[Joran]

It wasn't always like this. I can remember back when I started around 2007 or so, and the Escapist was a really good place to write for. They aimed to pay in 30 days, but sometimes that meant within 60. Very clearly, things have changed. And, the day I had to basically threaten legal action to get paid was the day I decided that I wasn't going to write for them any longer.


Thanks a lot for the insider view.

Did your contract specify how much time they had to pay you? A lot of Extra Credits vs. Escapist seems to hinge on what's in that contract.

P.S. Morally, I'm going to side mostly on Extra Credits. The Escapist reneged on their obligations to pay them in a timely manner which made a desperate appeal to the community necessary. I'm really of mixed mind about what the extra money from the charity should go towards.

I don't want the extra funds to bailout the Escapist from fulfilling its obligations, but the charity funds should benefit Extra Credits the show.

[Ravens_cry]

They already are, they are getting their artist back.
Personally, if a charity is for a set purpose, I think, if possible, excess funds should be returned.
Neither side really has much claim to them in my (probably ill-informed) opinion.

[VanBuren]

They already are, they are getting their artist back.
Personally, if a charity is for a set purpose, I think, if possible, excess funds should be returned.
Neither side really has much claim to them in my (probably ill-informed) opinion.

Yeah, but it was made explicitly clear by EC what they were planning to use additional funds for, and the response was positive.

[MammonAzrael]

Additionally, how do you return the excess funds? Do you just calculate the percentage that every single person donated to return? Do you return all money from a certain date forward? Seems time intensive and messy no matter how you cut it. And that doesn't even consider anonymous donations.

From everything I've heard and read, it sounds to me like EC is in the right here, and The Escapist is...well, certainly not malicious. I can't make any judgment more than that from what I know.

[Cobalt]

Sounds like the Escapist dropped one ball and never picked it back up. Then they took up juggling and when another twenty balls fell they kept going and going beyond that. Seems to be catching up with them, unsurprisingly, with negative consequences and awkward situations, and now they're scrambling to pick balls back up off the ground in ways that aren't entirely intelligent, from an outsider's point of view. And likely not an insider's view, either.

I'm not sure they're going all the way down for this (but anything's possible), but I'm really not seeing Escapist being the high roller entertainer it once was again any time soon. It looks like it's been a silent spiral for a while.

[Joran]

Yeah, but it was made explicitly clear by EC what they were planning to use additional funds for, and the response was positive.

How about the people who donated before the excess? Also, even if they made it explicitly clear, it was still a donation drive for Extra Credits, with a lot of emotional plea made for helping the artist. I'd doubt they'd have made as much money if they stopped donations once they hit their target and then opened up a new page for donations to independent developers without the Extra Credits name attached to it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that money given to "save Extra Credits" should stay with Extra Credits and be used to continue its existence. I just don't want that money to bail out the Escapist for reneging on their obligations to pay their contributors in a timely manner.

[VanBuren]

How about the people who donated before the excess?

I would think it fairly obvious that those people's money went towards the surgery.


Also, even if they made it explicitly clear, it was still a donation drive for Extra Credits, with a lot of emotional plea made for helping the artist. I'd doubt they'd have made as much money if they stopped donations once they hit their target and then opened up a new page for donations to independent developers without the Extra Credits name attached to it.

And yet, when they announced the idea, the support was almost unanimously positive. They were upfront about all of this. It is impossible to make a case that they were being underhanded or manipulative on this one.


I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that money given to "save Extra Credits" should stay with Extra Credits and be used to continue its existence. I just don't want that money to bail out the Escapist for reneging on their obligations to pay their contributors in a timely manner.

Neither party went in to this expecting extra money. In fact, I'm not even sure they expected to get enough for the surgery itself. Given the circumstances, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that "save Extra Credits" meant anything other than saving the artist.

[Psyren]

Also, even if they made it explicitly clear, it was still a donation drive for Extra Credits, with a lot of emotional plea made for helping the artist. I'd doubt they'd have made as much money if they stopped donations once they hit their target and then opened up a new page for donations to independent developers without the Extra Credits name attached to it.

It was pretty obvious once they'd passed the required amount for Alison. If you wanted your money to go only towards her arm, why would you donate to the surplus? :smallconfused:

All the "buy a bionic arm!" comments were jokes, you know.

[Eakin]

"Extra Credits" will go on with or without the Escapist. "Save Extra Credits" doesn't mean "give Escapist the money to continue hosting Extra Credits"

All of it depends on what was in the contract. It may well cover exactly what the consequences of a breach in payment schedule are. Hopefully EC ends up with the rights to their IP if Escapist is in violation, but that's for the courts and lawyers to hash out, most likely

[hustlertwo]

No one comes out well in this. Escapist seemed to want quality content that one is supposed to pay for without, you know, paying for it. EC guy took advantage of the giving nature of people to create something wholly unrelated to what they had been giving him money for. Kinda reminds me of a popular but unremarkable webcomic a few years back, Loserz. They guy asked for his readers to donate so he could buy a new computer to keep doing the comic. They did, he hit the mark, and a couple months later he canceled the comic. Jerk move, no way around it. Same thing here. No one was donating money for him to hire a business manager.

Legally, Escapist is probably more at fault. Morally, I'm going with Extra Credits. Escapist only screwed him. He screwed pretty much everybody.

[Tavar]

What?
I'm pretty sure that, after the goal was met, they immediately told everyone that it was met, and set up a poll for what to do with surplus money. At least, that's what everyone's been saying. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

[hustlertwo]

Unless Escapist was completely making up the part about this guy going out and hiring himself outside management, then I'm at a loss as to how it can be claimed the money was spent properly.

[GloatingSwine]

What?
I'm pretty sure that, after the goal was met, they immediately told everyone that it was met, and set up a poll for what to do with surplus money. At least, that's what everyone's been saying. Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

They announced in the very next episode that they had met the original target (I think they actually met it within 24 hours).

The brouhaha arose because The Escapist decided that since they'd made some effort towards securing donations, that should mean that they didn't have to pay the Extra Credits team at all.

[Rae Artemi]

Unless Escapist was completely making up the part about this guy going out and hiring himself outside management, then I'm at a loss as to how it can be claimed the money was spent properly.

James was already a professional consulter, previously a designer, developer and many other things before and during the time Extra Credits was going on. It's entirely possible that he already had a lawyer prior to the donations, and entirely unlikely that he used the donation drive money to hire one anyways. I read all of the stuff a few days ago, but I believe that the Escapist only said that he brought in a business lawyer, not that he hired one out of the blue, and I am definitely sure that they didn't say he used the donation money to do it.

[Weimann]

While I'm not updated on the most current events, I must agree with hustlertwo in that if EC did indeed use the donated money to hire a business manager, then they are clearly not using them for what they said they would be (Allison's surgery* and an indie game publishing project). That is dubious, no doubt about it.

On the other hand, I can see the fanbase (which, in the end, were the ones who donated the money and thus the ones EC has to answer to in regards to its use) forgiving them for taking this step to mend a hole in their fabric that recent events have made clear is there. After all, what the fans should want most of all is the continued production of the show, right? Using the surplus to that end seems like an investment for long-term stability. Speaking as a fan, albeit not one who donated, I can get behind that.

Also, note that while I think "use the surplus to secure the continued production of EC" is a valid reasoning, I still think that "use the surplus to secure the continued production of EC and thus free the Escapist from their debt" is unacceptable.

*Not saying they didn't pay for the surgery, just saying those two were the stated goals.

[Joran]

The brouhaha arose because The Escapist decided that since they'd made some effort towards securing donations, that should mean that they didn't have to pay the Extra Credits team at all.

Well, that and the Escapist owns the Extra Credits IP. Any use and money gained from that IP is subject to that contract.

Extra Credits is arguing by the time the donation drive was necessary, Escapist was already in breach of the contract. Escapist is basically arguing that since it was done under the Extra Credits name that all the proceeds should go to Extra Credits and paying Extra Credits what they're owed.

[Trazoi]

My reading of the situation going by his comments was that James was frustrated and embarrassed that he had to turn to asking the fans for money. I could see how from that perspective using the excess funds to improve their own show would feel like profiting off their fan's generosity towards Alison's situation, more so than setting up a non-profit indie fund.

The Escapist's position doesn't hold up scrutiny to me. If the "reasonable" assumption was that the funds were going to pay for its debt, then they should have insisted that that was clear in the donation drive. But I also don't think they would have been happy with an drive of "Help pay the Escapist host Extra Credits, because we haven't been paying them for a year". To me, that position seem far more deceptive towards EC fans than the honest approach EC took.

However I think the Escapist isn't trying to stake a claim on the money now, given they haven't got much in writing and it would be even more of a PR disaster if they pushed the issue. I'm sure the internal debate between EC and the Escapist is now over whether EC gets its IP back and whether EC has been paid.

I suspect Extra Credits will get picked up by another online hosting place and keep going strong. The Escapist however will have to repair its reputation pronto otherwise their well of content will run dry.

[hustlertwo]

If Escapist is this far in the red, odds are they're going to need someone to buy 'em in order to keep from collapsing eventually. As for Extra Credits, I doubt their popularity reaches what it was while they were on Escapist once they're out on their own, though hopefully they'll still do well enough to continue.

And Rae, according to the words of the EC guy, he was 'nearly destitute'. People who are nearly destitute don't go around hiring their own management staff for a business they had yet to create.

[Draconi Redfir]

Way i read it it sounds more like miscommunication issues to me since they stopped talking directly with one another.

Then again i am also rather tired so i may just be thinking nonsense.

[Joran]

As for Extra Credits, I doubt their popularity reaches what it was while they were on Escapist once they're out on their own, though hopefully they'll still do well enough to continue.


Unless... they get picked up by a large website like Penny-Arcade (PATV).

[hustlertwo]

Well yeah, that'd do it. PA's bigger than Escapist, I think.

[Geno9999]

I watched the recent video on youtube, and Extra Credits said that they found a new "home", but didn't give anymore details beyond that. I guess we have until next week to speculate who/where that is.

[Joran]

I watched the recent video on youtube, and Extra Credits said that they found a new "home", but didn't give anymore details beyond that. I guess we have until next week to speculate who/where that is.

Hopefully, this will include a resolution to the dispute between them and the Escapist. Otherwise, it may just drag the third party into its own lawsuit.

/crosses fingers.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Can somebody direct me to the newest Extra Credits on Yotube? I can't seem to find them...:smallconfused:

[Rae Artemi]

Can somebody direct me to the newest Extra Credits on Yotube? I can't seem to find them...:smallconfused:

Here you go. (http://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz)

[Psyren]

Can somebody direct me to the newest Extra Credits on Yotube? I can't seem to find them...:smallconfused:

If you're on facebook, you can like their page (https://www.facebook.com/ExtraCredits) and follow them wherever they go.

[thegurullamen]

New video. (http://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz)

So, now that they've been picked up by PATV and announced their plans for the funds, what does the GitP community make of this?

[Psyren]

New video. (http://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz)

So, now that they've been picked up by PATV and announced their plans for the funds, what does the GitP community make of this?

Fully on board. Only wish I had donated more at the time. :smallsmile:

And they actually announced all this before; just not via the show. (Well, the exact terms for the fund's use were a lot more nebulous before now, but the fund itself was known about.) I think it would be really, really awesome if they became an indie publishing juggernaut from this.

Also, Allison's beard is win.

[factotum]

I think it would be really, really awesome if they became an indie publishing juggernaut from this.


Let's not forget that EA started life as a small company making great games, and over the years has developed into the massive monolith of ordure we see today; we can hope Extra Creditz doesn't go the same way, but there's the old saw that says "Power corrupts".

[Psyren]

Let's not forget that EA started life as a small company making great games, and over the years has developed into the massive monolith of ordure we see today; we can hope Extra Creditz doesn't go the same way, but there's the old saw that says "Power corrupts".

At the same time, for every scary EA and Ubisoft, we get a Valve and Mojang to show folks how publishing can be immensely profitable without being evil. And note that EA/Activision's rise to power happened out of the public eye, firmly in the dark, where dread growths could fester unchecked. The current structure of the web and social media would make such clandestine operations, if not impossible, extremely difficult for EC to pull off.

Also, the fact that they don't have to make a living off this idea is pretty big - it means they can take risks that a startup or publicly-traded publisher could not, as well as focus on other areas (such as the state of the medium as a whole) rather than solely on the bottom line.


I'm not saying it'll all be daisies and buttercups - I think their video is really downplaying the high risks of this endeavor, and I'm not sure how committed they can be to a project that isn't sustaining their livelihoods - but they have the support of a lot of heavy hitters both inside and outside the industry, so if anyone can pull it off it'll be them.

[Axolotl]

Let's not forget that EA started life as a small company making great games, and over the years has developed into the massive monolith of ordure we see today; we can hope Extra Creditz doesn't go the same way, but there's the old saw that says "Power corrupts".Except EA was alway as "corrupt" as it is now, even when i9t was a small studio. They had the policy of not just trying make good games themselves but of trying to stop other companies making good games which they pursued by doing things like starting frivolous lawsuits against companies like Origin. EA has always tried to screw other people over, it's just now it has enough power to do it much better.

[Karoht]

Story Time:

Years ago, I was involved in a project to create a website similar to The Escapist. Same sort of idea. Some unique content, gaming dialogue, some entertainment type stuff, you get the idea.

The creator of this site talked at length about sweat equity, and how anyone should be grateful to be given the opportunity to have their content up on his site.

After some poor decision making on my part, me and my creative team decided to back out.

Looking back, I'm pretty sure that we would have ended up in a similar situation. Working for next to nothing or nothing at all, and being frustrated when asking for a hand and being denied it.

I really do love Extra Credits and Big Picture. I honestly hope EC either gets a better deal or finds a better home.

[factotum]

I really do love Extra Credits and Big Picture. I honestly hope EC either gets a better deal or finds a better home.

You're a bit late there--they've already announced they're moving to PATV.

[hanzo66]

Huh, I guess I would've thought ScrewAttack since Moviebob already had a place there as the Intellectual Gaming Discussion guy. Then again, that might be it.

[Onix]

I was watching all the EC videos, then life did the "get complicated" thing and I lost track. Just recently I was thinking "I'll have to watch a lot of EC videos to catch up." I guess I didn't miss much. Hopefully things work out and they can go back to being awesome.

[Tavar]

Actually, they've continued with the weekly videos, so it depends when you stopped.

[Geno9999]

I wonder after EC finalizes the move to PATV on Wednesday if they will also upload all the older EC videos that was on Escapist. Because right now all of their stuff had been removed, and I'm not sure about where I can go to review some of the topics they discussed.

[Psyren]

I wonder after EC finalizes the move to PATV on Wednesday if they will also upload all the older EC videos that was on Escapist. Because right now all of their stuff had been removed, and I'm not sure about where I can go to review some of the topics they discussed.

They said that all their back-episodes will be going along with them. Life is good :smallcool:

[Joran]

They said that all their back-episodes will be going along with them. Life is good :smallcool:

Hmm... Any word on what the settlement between Extra Credits and the Escapist was? I assume if they get to move their back catalog that Escapist and EC made some kind of arrangement... or more ninja lawyers will be summoned.

[Trazoi]

Hmm... Any word on what the settlement between Extra Credits and the Escapist was? I assume if they get to move their back catalog that Escapist and EC made some kind of arrangement... or more ninja lawyers will be summoned.
Extra Credits has been taken off The Escapist, so the ninja lawyers have already retrieved the IP. What I don't know is the nature of the deal and whether money exchanged hands. My guess given the situation is the likely deal was EC exchanged any outstanding payment for the IP rights so both parties could go their separate ways.

[Psyren]

Extra Credits has been taken off The Escapist, so the ninja lawyers have already retrieved the IP. What I don't know is the nature of the deal and whether money exchanged hands. My guess given the situation is the likely deal was EC exchanged any outstanding payment for the IP rights so both parties could go their separate ways.

This seems likely to me - though if true, it does again raise an ugly point: had they not had their own squad of ninja lawyers to combat the Escapists', they might still have been forced to find a new website, but also to change the format and possibly even title of their show so as not to infringe on their own IP, and be unable to take their old episodes with them when they went. It saddens me to think that other content contributors with less clout could have been easily strongarmed in a similar scenario.

[Karoht]

You're a bit late there--they've already announced they're moving to PATV.Yeah, I saw that right after I posted. And I think Penny-Arcade has made mention of it too. I can't wait. Maybe they'll get more artistic support. Maybe they'll move in with the PA team like the way PvP did. Maybe Movie Bob/Big Picture Bob will switch over as well.
The future looks good.

[potatocubed]

... I'm not sure how committed they can be to a project that isn't sustaining their livelihoods ...

You could argue that committing to projects that don't sustain their livelihoods is what landed them in this mess to start with.

[Psyren]

You could argue that committing to projects that don't sustain their livelihoods is what landed them in this mess to start with.

Assuming you mean EC itself (the show, that is), that was never anywhere near the level of commitment this thing is going to require, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Plus they're continuing the show (and not even skimming any money from the fund to keep it going) and they've got their existing jobs.