Tier system for races?

[Rogue Shadows]

Of course, we all know about the tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

Though I am annoyed that the Shadowcaster isn't on it, even though the Binder is and the Truenamer is mentioned. The guy read the book even...

...anyway. Has anyone ever put any thought into trying to put one together for the various available races of 3.5?

...and if not, anyone feel like taking a crack at making one?

[Amnestic]

There are a lot of possible races out there, even if they do happen to be LA+8, 7RHD or whatever. I suppose the best places to start would be the LA+0 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0) and LA+1/+2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189980) lists though and go from there. As you can see from just those lists though, this tier categorisation would be quite...verbose.

I'd put Humans and Lesser Planetouched at the top though ;p

[Zaq]

Well, there are some races that are obviously good (humans), and some races that are very good for specific classes/archetypes/concepts, but you don't get the wide variety that you do with classes. Most of the time, your class will totally overshadow your race in terms of who you are and what you can do.

Besides, aside from races that get really unfortunate penalties (elves, for instance), the worst you'll usually get from a "bad" race is "well, it does nothing to help you." No one is going to say that half-elf is a good race (I'd go so far as to call it one of the worst-designed out there, though probably not THE worst), but really, that's just because it doesn't actually make you noticeably better at pretty much anything. You'll almost never say "well, he'd be much better at his archetype if he weren't a half-elf" the way you'd say "he'd be much better at his archetype if he weren't a Monk."

Now sure, if your race takes a penalty to your primary stat, that sucks, but (1) that's very situational and (2) it's much easier to overcome than the analogous situation with classes. (Oh no, my half-orc Wizard has only 16 INT instead of 18! How can I POSSIBLY have world-shattering power at my command now?! My enemies are 5% more likely to resist the spells I cast that bother to give saving throws, and I might have 1 fewer spell per day! I CAN'T PLAY THIS CHARACTER!)

Basically, while some races are undeniably better than others, I'd say that the difference between a strong race and a weak race is small enough that it's not really useful to try to categorize it with any sort of granularity, especially when it's so character-dependent (to take the obvious example, an orc makes a relatively poor spellcaster and a relatively good face-beater).

[NNescio]

Of course, we all know about the tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

Though I am annoyed that the Shadowcaster isn't on it, even though the Binder is and the Truenamer is mentioned. The guy read the book even...

...anyway. Has anyone ever put any thought into trying to put one together for the various available races of 3.5?

...and if not, anyone feel like taking a crack at making one?

...Tier 3? Kinda godawful before Level 5 though.

As for races, we assume that LA and RHD are in play. As such...

Top Tier: Strong abilities that can fit well in a multitude of builds. Human is the gold standard. Stongheart Halfings, Whisper Gnomes, and Dragonborn Grey Elves also belong here. Dwarves are at the low end here.

Mid Tier: Interesting and strong abilities, 'though some of them come with inconvenient penalties. Normal elves are at the low end here.

Low Tier: Half-elves, Half-orcs, and anything similar. Basically, things without interesting racial abilities.

Bottom Tier: Anything unplayable due to excessive amounts of LA and RHD.

[gorfnab]

Though I am annoyed that the Shadowcaster isn't on it, even though the Binder is and the Truenamer is mentioned. The guy read the book even...

I feel the same way (see sig).

Warforged and Chameleons would probably be in Tier 1, in my opinion.

[Daftendirekt]

I feel the same way (see sig).

Warforged and ChameleonsChangelings? would probably be in Tier 1, in my opinion.

Fixed, and gotta disagree. Changelings are a niche race. Half of their coolness is roleplaying possibilities. The other half (to me, anyway) is Warshaper shenanigans -- i.e., having them all the time.

[Amnestic]

Fixed, and gotta disagree. Changelings are a niche race. Half of their coolness is roleplaying possibilities. The other half (to me, anyway) is Warshaper shenanigans -- i.e., having them all the time.

Tier 1 in an Eberron political city-based campaign then? :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Shadowcaster is difficult to quantify, as its capabilities change rapidly as it gains levels - perhaps even more over the course of its career than the Truenamer's sudden leap once it gets at-will Gate. But I would say it ranges from T4 at the outset, up to perhaps T2 when it finally gets enough ammunition (and variety) to achieve game-breaking power.

[gorfnab]

Fixed, and gotta disagree. Changelings are a niche race. Half of their coolness is roleplaying possibilities. The other half (to me, anyway) is Warshaper shenanigans -- i.e., having them all the time.
Ah yes, Changelings. I always confuse that name with Chameleon.

[Daftendirekt]

Tier 1 in an Eberron political city-based campaign then? :smallamused:

Sure. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Illumians should be pretty high up. So should Hellbred, Elans and Azurins.

I think a way to approach this would be like "High tier: works with a wide variety of classes/builds" and "Low tier: Disadvantaged in almost every known build." Humans are T1 because you can generally use human in any build and get a great result, whereas half-orcs suck at almost everything. And they should probably be arranged by LA too... it seems complicated.

And keep in mind that Pathfinder changes several ratings considerably.

[Soranar]

Well,this attempt is akin to the original tier system with considerations towards race specific options (like substitution levels, feats, classes and favored classes) and race specific social interactions (Orcs may make great fighters types but they are also hated by just about every good race in non-evil settings).

Tier 1 (Can be used for absolutely everything, often better than races that are speficically designed for certain classes)

-Humans, Illumians, Strongheart Halflings, Dwarves, Changeling, Warforged

Tier 2 (Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 races but don't have quite as many options. These races can be used for a large variety of builds but usually sacrifice options a tier 1 race would have in favor of a build specific ability.)

-Lesser planetouched (Aasimar, Tiefling, etc), Kobold, Gnomes,Mongrelfolk

Tier 3 (Capable of doing one thing quite well, they're usually the best choice for a handful of builds and are nearly on par with the tier 1 races for those builds only)

-Orcs, Elves (without a Con penalty),Elans, Maenads, Xeph,Darfellan, half-elf, hellbred, neanderthal,Duskling,Skarn, Spellscale,Shifter, Neraphim,Jermlaine,Buomman, Azurin, Synad

Tier 4 (Capable of doing one thing fairly well but tend to be outshone by higher tiered races.)

-Half-Orcs, Halflings (non strongheart), warforged scout, goblins, Elves with a Con penalty, other LA 0 races I might have missed.

Tier 5 (Can be used for 1 build and are not terrible at it, tend to have trouble with CR appropriate encounters unless they play a very strong class, many races can do this role better. May eventually catch up to the higher races once the campaign goes beyond the level 6 or if LA buyoff is allowed)

Most LA +1 races

Tier 6 (Can be used for several builds but has underwhelming abilities as they lack the raw power of the other races. May eventually catch up to the higher races once the campaign goes beyond the level 12 or if LA buyoff is allowed)

Hobgoblins, Sharakim, All LA +2 and up races.

Note: Access to LA buyoff can bump up a few races from tier 5 or 6 to tier 3 but they are still strickly worse than playing a tier 1 race.

[Tvtyrant]

Tier 0 Phaerimm. They giggle at us all.

[Morbis Meh]

How can people be forgetting Raptorans? The natural ability to fly is pretty damn good imo. The bonus to jump due to their wings make them amazing uberchargers Always knowing which way is North is kind of nifty if your DM is obsessed with mazes and forces you to navigate the world map based on survival. Low light vision is better than standard human vision as well.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Tier 0 Phaerimm. They giggle at us all.

Yes, yes they do.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Fixed, and gotta disagree. Changelings are a niche race. Half of their coolness is roleplaying possibilities. The other half (to me, anyway) is Warshaper shenanigans -- i.e., having them all the time.

They are other nasty tricks for a a Changeling, the Dual Focused specialist transmuter/illusionist is one for example (add Shadowcraft mage for extra funsies either by using the non-racist adaptation or racial emulation feat)

Edit: There is also a tier list for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0)

[NNescio]

They are other nasty tricks for a a Changeling, the Dual Focused specialist transmuter/illusionist is one for example (add Shadowcraft mage for extra funsies either by using the non-racist adaptation or racial emulation feat)

Edit: There is also a tier list for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044.0)

If you are a Shadowcraft Mage, you don't need to dual-specialize.

[Dusk Eclipse]

As I said for extra funsies :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Swapping 1 skill point per level to point of essentia is not going to drop human two tiers, changelings just aren't tier 1 by any stretch, synads and elan play in entirely different ballpark than something like buomman.

I mean, look at buomman. +2 Wis, -2 Cha, can't speak. What are you going to be, a monk?

[Amnestic]

I mean, look at buomman. +2 Wis, -2 Cha, can't speak. What are you going to be, a monk?

Have everyone drop 1-2 points into learning Drow Sign Language? :smalltongue:

[NNescio]

Swapping 1 skill point per level to point of essentia is not going to drop human two tiers, changelings just aren't tier 1 by any stretch, synads and elan play in entirely different ballpark than something like buomman.

I mean, look at buomman. +2 Wis, -2 Cha, can't speak. What are you going to be, a monk?

Well, you can blow a feat on Nonverbal Spell... or opt to be a Dragonborn. :smallbiggrin:

[Okizruin]

Kobolds are a tier 6, right?

[NNescio]

Kobolds are a tier 6, right?

Core only, Tier 5.

With RoTD's Web Enhancement, Tier 3.

With Dragonwrought, Tier 1.

On a side note, I trust you never heard of Pun-Pun before?

[Seerow]

Core only, Tier 5.

With RoTD's Web Enhancement, Tier 3.

With Dragonwrought, Tier 1.

On a side note, I trust you never heard of Pun-Pun before?

Can I just say "Woooosh"?

[JaronK]

Of course, we all know about the tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

Though I am annoyed that the Shadowcaster isn't on it, even though the Binder is and the Truenamer is mentioned. The guy read the book even...

I based it on classes I'd actually played or played with. I've never seen a Shadowcaster in action. I can theorize just fine about things, but I only wanted to put things in the system that I actually knew. But if it helps, I'd guess in the T4 range, perhaps up to T3 with the suggested fix.

I keep telling myself I'll add in more classes at some point, but I keep playing with people who play the same general classes.

...and no putting all LA+2 races at the bottom! Black Ethergaunts with their ECL 20 laugh at your puny tiers. Then obliterate you with level 17 Wizard casting, insane intelligence, and amazing defenses against spells.

JaronK

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tier 1- humans, strongheart halflings, dragonborn water orcs, whisper gnomes, dragonwrought kobolds.

Tier 2- dwarves, raptorans, goliaths, half-giants (if psionic class).

Tier 3- halflings, dragonborn half-orcs, dragonborn orcs, half-giants (if non-psionic class), water orcs, kobolds (with RotD web enhancement), elves (with Elven Generalist).

Tier 4- orcs, gnomes, elves.

Tier 5- half-orcs, kobolds, hobgoblins, half-elves.

[JaronK]

Even without Dragonwrought, Kobolds can still use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage for +1 Sorcerer level.

JaronK

[Rogue Shadows]

Even without Dragonwrought, Kobolds can still use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage for +1 Sorcerer level.

JaronK

Not to mention they're kind of amazing anyway, at least at low levels...normal base speed plus a base 13 AC (+1 dex, +1 size, +1 natural) makes them great casters.

EDIT
Incidentally, I should probably mention that the real reason I started this thread was because I knew that some core races (elf, half-elf) were worse than others (human, dwarf), but I wasn't sure how worse, so I was secretly manipulating you all into doing the dirty work of organizing them into neat tiers for me so that I could know how much work to put into what and where!

Muwahahahahahaha!

I need better evil plans.

[Greenish]

Kobolds are a tier 6, right?30' move speed with small size, NA, three natural weapons off the bat, dragonblooded, weapon proficiencies (handy for gishes), dragonblooded and some quality support argues otherwise.

That's before you count the ones that are dragons.

[Dusk Eclipse]

MM kobolds are tier races; all the neat stuff comes from RotD and the web enhancement

[Greenish]

MM kobolds are tier races; all the neat stuff comes from RotD and the web enhancementOne should think the support the race gains from different sources counts for their favour. :smallamused:

[peacenlove]

Shadowcaster is difficult to quantify, as its capabilities change rapidly as it gains levels - perhaps even more over the course of its career than the Truenamer's sudden leap once it gets at-will Gate. But I would say it ranges from T4 at the outset, up to perhaps T2 when it finally gets enough ammunition (and variety) to achieve game-breaking power.

T3 actually is the upper limit (with or without fix). Extra uses can come from staves at higher levels (craftable via feats), defeating their weakness. Starts at T4, until you can get your hands on staves or blow all your feats on Favored Mystery.
Their spell list contains no dangerous spells (The only gamebreaking mystery is greater shadow evocation -> contigency, subject to dm interpretation, and shadow puppet, or 8th level dominate monster, blockable with 100 different, reliable ways, and these hold no candle to gate or Polymorph any object).
Lacks reliable defenses (Mind blank or Elemental form for example), and his mysteries lack versatility (compare Army of shadows to summon monster 9)
He also is the least versatile full caster ever printed (even with the fix) and the weakest full caster at lvl 1.

Planetouched can be considered T0 or T1 with Alter self abuse. Without it they are T4-.
Now find a tier for dvati :smallamused:

[Quarion Nailo]

How about Thri-Kreen?

They can jump reeeaaaly well.

[Greenish]

How about Thri-Kreen?

They can jump reeeaaaly well.Non-psionic are okay for charger builds and the like, if you can buy off the LA. Obviously, not for casters.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One should think the support the race gains from different sources counts for their favour. :smallamused:

What I meant is that without RotW (and particularly the web enhancement) MM Kobolds would be a Tier 6 race, similar to how a Fighter is tier 5 normally and Tier 4 with dungeoncrasher and Zentharim sub levels.

[Greenish]

What I meant is that without RotW (and particularly the web enhancement) MM Kobolds would be a Tier 6 race, similar to how a Fighter is tier 5 normally and Tier 4 with dungeoncrasher and Zentharim sub levels.I don't know about tier 6. They're better for arcane casters than, say, PHB elves. Small but 30' move, +1 natural armour, 60' Darkvision.

[Dusk Eclipse]

MM Kobold stat adjustments are quite bad; but you have a point on those other bonuses (bonii?)

[Greenish]

MM Kobold stat adjustments are quite bad; but you have a point on those other bonuses+2 dex, -2 con like elves, and arcane casters aren't going to care about -4 str, especially when small size helps to compensate the carrying capacity.

[Dusk Eclipse]

+2 dex, -2 con like elves, and arcane casters aren't going to care about -4 str, especially when small size helps to compensate the carrying capacity.

wait was it a -2 con? I thought it was -4 :smallredface: I knew I should have cheched before... in that case you are right Kobolds still rule :smallamused:

[Acanous]

I'd put Shadowcaster on the same tier as Dread Necromancer, really.

[erikun]

Tier 1- humans, strongheart halflings, dragonborn water orcs, whisper gnomes, dragonwrought kobolds.

Tier 2- dwarves, raptorans, goliaths, half-giants (if psionic class).

Tier 3- halflings, dragonborn half-orcs, dragonborn orcs, half-giants (if non-psionic class), water orcs, kobolds (with RotD web enhancement), elves (with Elven Generalist).

Tier 4- orcs, gnomes, elves.

Tier 5- half-orcs, kobolds, hobgoblins, half-elves.
How are gnomes Tier 5? What negatives do they have, outside 20' and being bad with Power Attack?

I agree that some races are unusually well-optimized for a specific task, and would have an unusually high tier with a specific class. Ethergaunt Wizards and Unbodied Psions (especially with LA buyoff) are considerably better than their mundane counterparts.



As a side note, how good a race is depends largely on what class you are playing. Dwarves make very good Clerics, Druids, and most melee classes, okay Wizards, and poor anything relying on Charisma. (Exchanging that for a Dexterity penality isn't that desirable.) Elves are great with Generalist Wizards, but almost no reason to play beyond that.

On the other hand, if we tier races based on what classes they are good with, then it's more of a reflection on the class than the race. Elven Generalist Wizards being Tier 1 and Half-Giant Psychic Warriors being Tier 3 tell us very little about the Elf and Half-Giant races in general.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'd put Shadowcaster on the same tier as Dread Necromancer, really.

Tier 3? That seems to be the general consensus. I'd agree, but with strong, STRONG advice to always use the fix. Without it, they're significantly less useful.

[Lans]

They might be tier 3 at the highest levels, but they are also tier 5 at the lowest. So take the average, and where it is for most levels.

[Infernalbargain]

How are gnomes Tier 5? What negatives do they have, outside 20' and being bad with Power Attack?

I agree that some races are unusually well-optimized for a specific task, and would have an unusually high tier with a specific class. Ethergaunt Wizards and Unbodied Psions (especially with LA buyoff) are considerably better than their mundane counterparts.



As a side note, how good a race is depends largely on what class you are playing. Dwarves make very good Clerics, Druids, and most melee classes, okay Wizards, and poor anything relying on Charisma. (Exchanging that for a Dexterity penality isn't that desirable.) Elves are great with Generalist Wizards, but almost no reason to play beyond that.

On the other hand, if we tier races based on what classes they are good with, then it's more of a reflection on the class than the race. Elven Generalist Wizards being Tier 1 and Half-Giant Psychic Warriors being Tier 3 tell us very little about the Elf and Half-Giant races in general.

I agree, gnomes ought to be tier 3. They're the only race that qualifies for that Shadowcaster PrC class from RoD by RAW which is certainly a tier 1 build.