Great party class combo's (excluding the obvious Tier 1s)

[Morph Bark]

So currently I am looking for classes that go very well together on different characters. For instance, if one person plays a Crusader and another a Warblade and they both take White Raven Tactics to ball each other's initiatives around. Or a Warmage with the Lord of Uttercold feat together with a Dread Necromancer and his undead horde (and if the Dread Necro hits his maximum HD in undead, the Warmage could take Fell Animate as well).

Obviously buffers (hello Warweaver) go great with most classes.


These are the only ones I've thought of until now though. Anyone got more ideas?

[Socratov]

any powerattacker combines great with an inspire courage optimised bard

[poignant123]

Knockback Dungeoncrasher Fighter with Impenetrable Barrier Warlock who readies action to cast when opponents get bullrushed.

[Fitz10019]

A grappler and a sneak attacker. The sneak attacker gets his sneak damage, and the grappler gets to move on to a new target sooner.

[opticalshadow]

dread necro artificer.


dread necro gets a flying zombie dragon, artificer makes tons and tons of explocives


hello carpet bombing.

[Mr.Smashy]

Bats Wizard / Codzilla / DC fighter / Druid - Should kill just about anything with a little Opting on the Drudad.

[Saintheart]

Optimised bard with optimised ubercharger. Bard puts out +5 - +10 bonuses to attack and damage, and +5d6 and up of elemental damage. Ubercharger confidently slashes his attack bonus by the bard's attack bonus knowing his own basic accuracy hasn't changed and he's adding a good +10 - +30 to his damage.

[Gnaeus]

Optimised bard with optimised ubercharger. Bard puts out +5 - +10 bonuses to attack and damage, and +5d6 and up of elemental damage. Ubercharger confidently slashes his attack bonus by the bard's attack bonus knowing his own basic accuracy hasn't changed and he's adding a good +10 - +30 to his damage.

???.

1. Ubercharger is a specific build.
2. An optimized charger uses shock trooper to power attack for full every round anyway.
3. An optimized charger can already kill any enemy that he can charge that is vulnerable to HP damage, so a damage buff doesn't help him much. The bard would be more useful casting fly or defense buffs or something to avoid AOOs on him.

[Soranar]

A paladin of tyranny is basically a walking debuff (-2 to all saves within his aura)

Add a bard's song for similar effect and suddenly the bard's mind affecting spells become incredibly difficult to resist (especially if he uses the feat that makes him able to cast and sing at the same time). Gets even worse when you have another caster in the party (say a beguiler and/or a warlock).

[Fouredged Sword]

paladin of tyrany / evengelisist - -5 to will saves.

Bard / mind bender - more drain to saves + dominate person as a 4th level spell...

[Yorrin]

Ubercharger is a specific build.

I've seen you say this in several threads, and not to derail this one too much, but it's not true. At least not anymore. There was an original ubercharger, but it's become a build archetype the same way Batman has.

[Morph Bark]

Knockback Dungeoncrasher Fighter with Impenetrable Barrier Warlock who readies action to cast when opponents get bullrushed.

A grappler and a sneak attacker. The sneak attacker gets his sneak damage, and the grappler gets to move on to a new target sooner.

Those are some very nice ones indeed. Had to look up Impenetrable Barrier first, but dang, that would work out pretty awesomely, both crunch- and fluff-wise. :smallamused:


A paladin of tyranny is basically a walking debuff (-2 to all saves within his aura)

Add a bard's song for similar effect and suddenly the bard's mind affecting spells become incredibly difficult to resist (especially if he uses the feat that makes him able to cast and sing at the same time). Gets even worse when you have another caster in the party (say a beguiler and/or a warlock).

I know there is such a bard song, like a negative inspire courage that affects enemies, but I don't recall where it can be found. Anyone?

[Silva Stormrage]

A great damage combo is Optimized bard with requiem + Minionmancer Dread Necromancer + Thrallherd Psion.

The Dread Necromancer and the Psion have an absurd amount of disposable minions. Give all the thrallherd's thralls longbows with rapid shot and with the Bard giving each one +14d6 sonic damage not much is going to live. I believe there is also a class that gives all allies within 60ft or so full BAB up to the bard's caster level. So that means they are all hitting and mowing down all opponents.

[Gnaeus]

I've seen you say this in several threads, and not to derail this one too much, but it's not true. At least not anymore. There was an original ubercharger, but it's become a build archetype the same way Batman has.


The ubercharger is a specific theoretical exercise in character optimisation that deals somewhere between thousands and hundreds of thousands of damage on a charge and does absolutely nothing else.



In my books, "Ubercharger" refers to the build named "the Ubercharger"; the build dealing maximum charge damage possible in the game without loops.



I think you're confusing terms; Charger is probably what you're looking for. Ubercharger is basically a Theoretical Optimization exercise to see how much damage you can squeeze out of a charger build..


"Theoretical Optimized Uberchargers" is redundant. The "Uber" in that means it's purely theoretical ops.

Just like the Ubermount is theoretical ops (get a 54 HD dragon animal companion/mount), the Ubercharger is theoretical ops too. It's just what the word means.

What you mean when you say "Ubercharger" is actually "Good Charger" or "Optimized Charger."
(Although I think JaronK no longer defends this definition, preferring this one:)

I would argue that an ubercharger by definition is overdoing it. A "charger" is a character that specializes in defeating enemies by charging them... it's quite possible to have a reasonable one in game. An "ubercharger" is a charger that is intentionally unreasonable, doing absolutely insane amounts of damage. Really, I'd say you're not an "ubercharger" unless you can one hit TKO any opponent you'd ever reasonably fight... and you have multiple attacks to do it with.


For those that don't want to do a specific build, like a tripper, or ubercharger. What are some good all around feats, like weapon focus? For a two handed weapon and power attacking for reasonable (i.e. non ubercharger) amounts.

Not sure if I can quote banned accounts, so I'll pass on a couple other quotes.

So, it is either a specific build, or a narrow category of ubercharger-like builds with a set array of feats and definitely involving damage numbers with 5+ digits. Either way, he is using it wrong.

Also, I don't believe that I have said it in several threads. I may be misremembering, but usually someone else says it before I can. A quick site search of ubercharger looking only at threads I have posted in seems to bear that out. It is a common complaint, so it is easy to get confused about who makes it.

[JaronK]

To be clear, I define an Ubercharger as being either the specific build itself from the TO boards or the various builds trying to do the exact same thing, usually offshoots from that thread or found in that thread. Just like Pun Pun could be the level 1 Paladin version who uses Pazuzu or it could be the level 12 version that was a Paladin (the original). All of those are iterations of Pun Pun. But a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer who uses the Greater Rite of Passage and Loredrake is not Pun Pun, he's just a powerful Kobold. But if you had a character that used that same loop concept to get all the abilities of everything ever, I'd say it's valid to say you "made a Pun Pun."

So yes, there could be multiple Uberchargers, but they're all TO builds designed to do a maximum theoretical damage that's well beyond what actually might matter in any normal game, for the purpose of just getting huge charge damage numbers. And they're all the exact same concept as the one developed originally that got that name.

Certainly, the term "optimized ubercharger" is redundant... you're not going to be an ubercharger without theoretical levels of optimization.

As for party combos... Warchanter to boost everyone's BAB to that of the higest in the party + Kensai to lend +10BAB to one person + any full BAB class + Warhulk. At level 15 you can give everybody in the party (including the Warhulk) 25 BAB. It's pure martial, but it's fun when you just want to freak and and smash everything.

Inspire Awe Bard with Requeim and Haunting Melody + Dread Necromancer with Imperious Command + Unseelie Fey Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Binder... drop everyone's saves to almost nothing while making them all run in terror. Even zombies run away Frightened.

Factotum + Beguiler + Binder + Swordsage. All ninja party. When you want to disappear, no one can find you. Play D&D like it's Metal Gear or Shadowrun.

Philosopher party. Everyone has Vow of Peace and Poverty, and at least one is a Binder/Warlock/Bard diplomancer with Fascinate. Wander around impoverished and when anything hostile comes near, it has to just stop and listen to you preach. Then it joins your side and gives up evil. For giggles, use Lucid Dreaming and you can convert people in your sleep at long range too. Don't pull this on a DM without warning... it's hilarious to destroy a one off but it's a real campaign smasher.

JaronK

[Karoht]

I would love to one day see a campaign with a focus on inter-party tactics rather than individual tactics.

IE-After Level 6, you are only allowed to take Team feats whenever you are granted a free feat slot. Class features still exempt.

But, this would require some things. A good selection of Team feats, probably a higher ratio of melee to range, and probably some restrictions on classes or prestige classes, to prevent people from avoiding using feats on Team feats.


But, I'm pretty sure that such a campaign would be unrealistic, and would be needlessly kicking some classes in the groin. So I don't exactly expect to see it come about any time soon.

[NNescio]

A great damage combo is Optimized bard with requiem + Minionmancer Dread Necromancer + Thrallherd Psion.

The Dread Necromancer and the Psion have an absurd amount of disposable minions. Give all the thrallherd's thralls longbows with rapid shot and with the Bard giving each one +14d6 sonic damage not much is going to live. I believe there is also a class that gives all allies within 60ft or so full BAB up to the bard's caster level. So that means they are all hitting and mowing down all opponents.

Warchanter's Inspire Legion, from Complete Warrior.

[JaronK]

I would love to one day see a campaign with a focus on inter-party tactics rather than individual tactics.

IE-After Level 6, you are only allowed to take Team feats whenever you are granted a free feat slot. Class features still exempt.

But, this would require some things. A good selection of Team feats, probably a higher ratio of melee to range, and probably some restrictions on classes or prestige classes, to prevent people from avoiding using feats on Team feats.


But, I'm pretty sure that such a campaign would be unrealistic, and would be needlessly kicking some classes in the groin. So I don't exactly expect to see it come about any time soon.

I was in a party something like that, where we were all designed to work together. There was a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade who dropped people's saves, a Dread Necromancer who used fear effects and save or sucks which landed better because of the PoT/Hex and which further debuffed enemies, a Beguiler who then Glitterdusted everyone, and a Ninja who finished off the now helpless enemies. It was fun, but the DM didn't like that every encounter ended the same way.

JaronK

[faceroll]

I've seen you say this in several threads, and not to derail this one too much, but it's not true. At least not anymore. There was an original ubercharger, but it's become a build archetype the same way Batman has.

There's a huge difference between a charger build, where +10 to +30 damage matter, and an ubercharger build that can kill anything it charges because it does damage:all of it.

The difference needs to exist, because a charger isn't really going to mess a game up, while the binary nature of an ubercharge is going to end up changing a lot.

[JaronK]

I've seen you say this in several threads, and not to derail this one too much, but it's not true. At least not anymore. There was an original ubercharger, but it's become a build archetype the same way Batman has.

Batman and God Wizards were always an archetype. There was never a specific build for them... there was a set of tactics for them. Any Wizard that uses those tactics is a Batman or God Wizard... it's what the words always meant.

But there were specific builds for Ubercharger, Pun Pun, Omnificer, Trouserfang Dwarf, Supermount, and so on. These are specific names that refer to specific builds, and while I think it's fine to talk about a very similar build as being the same name (for example the Paladin 1 Pun Pun and the Wizard 12 Pun Pun), referring to a build that simply happens to use a roughly similar tactic as being the same is not correct at all, except when used as hyperbole. Certainly, when you say Ubercharger, you're saying something that does far more damage per hit than any creature actually has hitpoints. I expect to see scientific notation for damage when you say Ubercharger, just as I expect to see every ability ever on the character if you say Pun Pun, or infinite knowledge checks with the Omnificer, and so on.

JaronK

[Morph Bark]

As for party combos... Warchanter to boost everyone's BAB to that of the higest in the party + Kensai to lend +10BAB to one person + any full BAB class + Warhulk. At level 15 you can give everybody in the party (including the Warhulk) 25 BAB. It's pure martial, but it's fun when you just want to freak and and smash everything.

:smalleek: Holy carp, that's some amazing team synergy combo right there.


Inspire Awe Bard with Requeim and Haunting Melody + Dread Necromancer with Imperious Command + Unseelie Fey Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Binder... drop everyone's saves to almost nothing while making them all run in terror. Even zombies run away Frightened.

Inspire Awe was the one I was thinking of. Where is it from? And Haunting Melody? I know the latter is a feat, but I can't find where.

Binder 9/PoT 3/Blackguard 3/Hexblade 1+ yum.

[JaronK]

:smalleek: Holy carp, that's some amazing team synergy combo right there.

It is, but note the lack of trapfinders if you're not careful. It uses a lot of people to get that combo.


Inspire Awe was the one I was thinking of. Where is it from? And Haunting Melody? I know the latter is a feat, but I can't find where.

The good Inspire Awe (as opposed to the Warchanter one) is a variant in Dragon Magic, replacing Inspire Courage. Because it's an unlimited duration fear effect, it's amazing when stacked... and since the save DC is based on your Perform check, it's easy to make it nearly impossible to defeat without immunity. Haunting Melody is from Libris Mortis and so is Requiem... the former lets you slap fear effects on top of your songs (so Inspire Awe + Haunting Melody = Frightened if they both land) and the latter lets your mind effecting songs work on undead, so you can put that together to scare the pants off a Demi-Lich.

JaronK

[Kaje]

Factotum with a Spellthief who's small enough to sit on his shoulder spamming SLAs every other round. Sparrow Hengeyokai perhaps.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

DFI Bard with optimized Inspire Courage;
Harmonious Knight Paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) with a Badge of Valor;
Harmonious Knight Sorcadin with Draconic Heritage and DFI and a Badge of Valor;
Wild Cohorts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) for everyone;
Any spellcaster who focuses on summoning creatures;
Druids of course, with animal companions and Summon Nature's Ally.
(I actually played in a game with this exact party, there was a summoner Cleric and two Druids with the Bard, Paladin, and Sorcadin.)

[Morph Bark]

It is, but note the lack of trapfinders if you're not careful. It uses a lot of people to get that combo.

No matter, if you have the full BAB character be a Trapkiller Barbarian (or have it be the Warhulk so you can make the full BAB character a Warblade or such).

[Karoht]

I was in a party something like that, where we were all designed to work together. There was a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade who dropped people's saves, a Dread Necromancer who used fear effects and save or sucks which landed better because of the PoT/Hex and which further debuffed enemies, a Beguiler who then Glitterdusted everyone, and a Ninja who finished off the now helpless enemies. It was fun, but the DM didn't like that every encounter ended the same way.

JaronK
I was thinking more along the lines of feats like Shield Wall and the like. I completely forget what they are called. A good number of them in Complete Warrior if memory serves me correctly.
I've never played a Hexblade, I've always wanted to.

Hexblade + Witch, does that combo work any good?