Unarmed Arcane Swordsage

[ExemplarofAvg]

The swordsage can trade in armor proficiency and gain a monks unarmored damage, it can also give up it's armor proficiency and lower it's hit dice and then is able to learn spells in place of manuevers (With a level of I'm not sure and number of times per day unsaid as far as I know)

So to paraphrase Machiavelli and quote Tony Stark/Robert Downey Jr.

"Some people ask if it's better to be feared or respected I say is it too much to ask for a bit of both."

Is it, would an Arcane Unarmed Swordsage be way too powerful?

[Tvtyrant]

Um, the Arcane part yes, the unarmed no. Arcane magic that you never run out of is terrifying, while unarmed damage doesn't balance out losing TWF or THF for the swordsage.

[HappyBlanket]

A regular Swordsage is considered a competent melee fighter. An unarmed Swordsage is considered a Monk fix. An Arcane Swordsage, on the otherhand, is considered completely and unequivocally bat**** insane.

So yes, an Arcane Unarmed would be overpowered, but only because of the Arcane aspect.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The swordsage can trade in armor proficiency and gain a monks unarmored damage, it can also give up it's armor proficiency and lower it's hit dice and then is able to learn spells in place of manuevers (With a level of I'm not sure and number of times per day unsaid as far as I know)

So to paraphrase Machiavelli and quote Tony Stark/Robert Downey Jr.

"Some people ask if it's better to be feared or respected I say is it too much to ask for a bit of both."

Is it, would an Arcane Unarmed Swordsage be way too powerful?

Main thought is Magical Unarmed Strike leading into a Throw from Setting Sun (also known to my group as the Judo Discipine)

[FMArthur]

A monk's main class features really are worth about the same as basic weapon proficiencies, unfortunately. There is no noticeable power change from regular to unarmed Swordsage.

The Arcane Swordsage adaptation is so ridiculous that if it also provided immunity to damage the spellcasting would remain the most prominent draw. Do not use it for any reason. No, not even then.

[enderlord99]

The swordsage can trade in armor proficiency and gain a monks unarmored damage, it can also give up it's armor proficiency and lower it's hit dice and then is able to learn spells in place of manuevers (With a level of I'm not sure and number of times per day unsaid as far as I know)

So to paraphrase Machiavelli and quote Tony Stark/Robert Downey Jr.

"Some people ask if it's better to be feared or respected I say is it too much to ask for a bit of both."

Is it, would an Arcane Unarmed Swordsage be way too powerful?

You're trying to give up armor proficiency twice? You're trying to give up armor proficiency twice. Won't work.

[Drachasor]

The Arcane Swordsage is a neat idea, but it would require a lot more work on a proper spell list than the little blurb in ToB indicates. I don't think its guidelines are that great either. I don't believe an Arcane Swordsage would be broken if they could learn Meteor Swarm (though I'd call it Meteor Fist Flurry), but Time Stop would be insane.

[Cog]

Is it, would an Arcane Unarmed Swordsage be way too powerful?
Anything that uses Arcane Swordsage without extensively houseruled limits added on is way too powerful in anything but the most high-op game. The unarmed variant does nothing to make it worse, really, but it certainly doesn't make it better either.

[Coidzor]

I like the idea of something along the lines of invocations for it myself.

[Drachasor]

Anything that uses Arcane Swordsage without extensively houseruled limits added on is way too powerful in anything but the most high-op game. The unarmed variant does nothing to make it worse, really, but it certainly doesn't make it better either.

Considering the "adaption" bit for Arcane Swordsages is roughly equivalent to a designer doodling an idea on a napkin, I wouldn't call it "extensively houseruling limits." It's more like fleshing out an idea (granted that's still houseruling).

[Cog]

So... you need to add limits that aren't there, those limits will be by their very nature houserules, and as there's little suggestion given in the original broadly-written entry, you'll have to make a lot of them.

I fail to see what part of "extensive houseruled limits" warranted correction.

[Drachasor]

So... you need to add limits that aren't there, those limits will be by their very nature houserules, and as there's little suggestion given in the original broadly-written entry, you'll have to make a lot of them.

I fail to see what part of "extensive houseruled limits" warranted correction.

My point was acting like there was some even halfway decent description of the arcane swordsage (like some people do), is a bit silly. It's at best an extremely rough idea for alternate class features.

[Coidzor]

So you're arguing over what terminology to use for when WOTC pointed people in a direction and said "homebrew?"

[Cog]

A few ideas for limits:

Spells count as twice their level for maneuver level.
No more than half your maneuvers known may be spells, and no more than half your maneuvers readied may be spells.
Spells have prerequisite maneuvers known equal to spell level-1 or 1/2 spell level. Abjuration is Diamond Mind, Evocation is Desert Wind, etc. Spells count as prereqs for maneuvers of their school, but not for other spells.
Spells with a duration greater than 1 round may not be selected.


Mix and match. You might not need all of these, but I'm sure even with all of these in use there'd be plenty of spells worth taking.

Limiting selection to a single list of choice from classes like Beguiler, DN, or Warmage might be a decent control as well.

[Drachasor]

So you're arguing over what terminology to use for when WOTC pointed people in a direction and said "homebrew?"

Well, I read another thread on here where they acted like WotC wasn't pointing in a direction and saying "homebrew?", but instead saying "use this as written." Hmm, I think it was less than a month old.

I'm possibly being a bit pedantic here.

Edit: Then again, there's gkathellar's post below.

[Drachasor]

A few ideas for limits:

Spells count as twice their level for maneuver level.
No more than half your maneuvers known may be spells, and no more than half your maneuvers readied may be spells.
Spells have prerequisite maneuvers known equal to spell level-1 or 1/2 spell level. Abjuration is Diamond Mind, Evocation is Desert Wind, etc. Spells count as prereqs for maneuvers of their school, but not for other spells.
Spells with a duration greater than 1 round may not be selected.


Mix and match. You might not need all of these, but I'm sure even with all of these in use there'd be plenty of spells worth taking.

Limiting selection to a single list of choice from classes like Beguiler, DN, or Warmage might be a decent control as well.

Personally, I say you make a new list of spells. You eliminate the problematic spells. You turn ones with long durations and personal or centered area effects into stances (like Mage Armor). Then it is probably good as is. Like I said, I don't think Meteor Swarm* as a maneuver for an Arcane Swordsage would be broken.

There's no quick fix to handle the broken spells other than just not including them.

*Meteor Fist Flurry

[gkathellar]

The standard reading of the tiny amount of text presented for Arcane Swordsage places it squarely at Tier 0 (it can break the game in every possible way, all the time, and at 17th level it can do it infinite times per action).

As for Unarmed Swordsage ... eh. Doesn't make it any hugely stronger or weaker, really.

[ExemplarofAvg]

The standard reading of the tiny amount of text presented for Arcane Swordsage places it squarely at Tier 0 (it can break the game in every possible way, all the time, and at 17th level it can do it infinite times per action).

As for Unarmed Swordsage ... eh. Doesn't make it any hugely stronger or weaker, really.

But combined?

[Cog]

But combined?
To put it more straightforwardly:

Unarmed Swordsage is a drop in a bucket.

Arcane Swordsage is the ocean with a bucket floating on it.

[Coidzor]

But who was bucket?!

[Big Fau]

But combined?

Tier 0 with an ability that doesn't matter by comparison.

[dextercorvia]

Is it, would an Arcane Unarmed Swordsage be way too powerful?

Fixed that for you. And, yes. Without serious DM work, the Arcane variant is crazy OP.

[Cog]

...How many copies of this thread do we have now?

[FMArthur]

The swordsage can trade in armor proficiency and gain a monks unarmored damage, it can also give up it's armor proficiency and lower it's hit dice and then is able to learn spells in place of manuevers (With a level of I'm not sure and number of times per day unsaid as far as I know)

So to paraphrase Machiavelli and quote Tony Stark/Robert Downey Jr.

"Some people ask if it's better to be feared or respected I say is it too much to ask for a bit of both."

Is it, would an Arcane Unarmed Swordsage be way too powerful?

Unarmed Swordsage adds nothing to an Arcane Swordsage. The fist itself is only debatably equal to regular weapons, but the thing is that Arcane Swordsage's weapons - whatever they may be - would be totally redundant. Whacking things in melee might as well be twiddling your thumbs for a round when you have endless arcane power. It's a mindless distraction until you decide to lay waste to the encounter.

This is all hypothetical because you should never, ever use Arcane Swordsage in an actual game unless you hate every single person at the table with you. Do not use the Arcane Swordsage. It is totally incomplete and disgustingly unbalanced.

[Xtomjames]

The Arcane Swordsage, at least in my opinion, is an awesome construction (and not incomplete). Rather it gives you a neat pliable class construction not limited to the maneuvers classified otherwise in the Tome of Battle. I'm currently playing one in a game as part of a multiclassed character. Balance really comes from understanding the limits of breaking (which admittedly is easy). That said I don't see it as all too different than a warlock. It's basically a martial based warlock by design.

It should be noted that if you go with the unarmed swordsage you don't drop your HD from D8 to D6.

[Elric VIII]

Just my 2cp, Arcane Swrodsage is a very interesting variant idea, it was just incompletely thought out and stupidly wirtten. The best way to handle it is to make it fit the mold of an already acceptable class feature.

Giving the Arcane SS the Arcane Dilettante class feature modified to work by expending a maneuver, rather than an inspiration point, would add a little mysticism without breaking the game into little pieces.

[ExemplarofAvg]

But who was Phone?!

Fixed it.

And alright revised question has anyone (ever) hammered out a homebrew of an arcane swordsage?

[Big Fau]

Fixed it.

And alright revised question has anyone (ever) hammered out a homebrew of an arcane swordsage?

There have been dozens of attempts, here, at Gleemax, and over at BG. Do some searching.

[gkathellar]

The Arcane Swordsage, at least in my opinion, is an awesome construction (and not incomplete). Rather it gives you a neat pliable class construction not limited to the maneuvers classified otherwise in the Tome of Battle. I'm currently playing one in a game as part of a multiclassed character. Balance really comes from understanding the limits of breaking (which admittedly is easy). That said I don't see it as all too different than a warlock. It's basically a martial based warlock by design.

It should be noted that if you go with the unarmed swordsage you don't drop your HD from D8 to D6.

It's not a complete class because it gets two sentences of vague suggestions. If you play it as is, it's not balanced because you can cast any wizard spell available to a caster of your level infinite times per day by level 3. It's not a martial warlock because there's absolutely no reason to bother with the martial part when you're just an improved wizard.

And don't start with that whole, "you just have to use moderation" shpeel. Just because you can choose not to break the game with it doesn't mean it isn't broken.

[MeeposFire]

It is not really broken because it really doesn't exist. The "class" is just a couple of suggestions for a DM to use to create and finalize the class. It is not meant to be seen as a complete class. In order for an honest appraisal the DM in question has to lay out the rules used for the arcane swordsage.

However unless your DM is very good at making balanced classes chances are it will be an overpowered mess of a class.

[tyckspoon]

There have been dozens of attempts, here, at Gleemax, and over at BG. Do some searching.

Hey, be nice, these forums at least aren't all that conducive to searching if you don't already know what you're after.

For local work, douglas has a layout for converting spells to maneuvers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187632&highlight=arcane+swordsage) that should be reasonably functional.

[Hiro Protagonest]

One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210941), two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210942), and now three threads. It's obvious the first two are duplicates from a server error which made you press Submit twice, but the third one? Doesn't seem like it.

[ExemplarofAvg]

There have been dozens of attempts, here, at Gleemax, and over at BG. Do some searching.

I never ask unless I've first looked on my own and found nothing of use.


One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210941), two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210942), and now three threads. It's obvious the first two are duplicates from a server error which made you press Submit twice, but the third one? Doesn't seem like it.

Yes, I tried to post it twice but it said server error so I thought nothing went through, then I reformatted my question with some extra stuff. How do I get rid of the other two, neither which was of much help upon reading. I don't want to waste forum space.

[Cog]

How do I get rid of the other two, neither which was of much help upon reading.

Report your thread to the mods using the yield sign-like button below your name in the first post.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Report your thread to the mods using the yield sign-like button below your name in the first post.

Thank you.

[Ekul]

Just to prove everyone's points: Timestop+Prismatic Wall+Permanency means that they can permanently cover the entire planet with Prismatic Wall at no cost. Permanency isn't strictly necessary, but I feel it's best to go that extra mile.

[gkathellar]

1. Start as a Warforged.
2. Cast infinite Time Stop to become the living incarnation of Zeno's paradox.
3. ????
4. Profit.

[Ekul]

1. Start as a Warforged.
2. Cast infinite Time Stop to become the living incarnation of Zeno's paradox.
3. ????
4. Profit.

Addendum:
1. Warforged Arcane Swordsage/Artificer.
2. Cast Timestop repeatedly.
3. Nonstop construct creation.
4. Leave instructions in real time for them to fight each other to gain enough experience to gain levels in Arcane Swordsage/Artificer.
5. ????
6. Profit.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the exp cost would be hard to overcome- you'd have to absorb all of the magical objects on the planet. At least there would be enough time to do that.

[gkathellar]

Addendum:
1. Gestalt Warforged Arcane Swordsage//Psionic Artificer.
2. Cast Timestop repeatedly.
3. Nonstop construct creation.
4. Leave instructions in real time for them to fight each other to gain enough experience to gain levels in Gestalt Arcane Swordsage//Psionic Artificer.
5. ????
6. Profit. Universe explodes.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, the exp cost would be hard to overcome- you'd have to absorb all of the magical objects on the planet. At least there would be enough time to do that.

Fixed. Your idea wasn't quite Tier 0 enough.

[Ekul]

Fixed. Your idea wasn't quite Tier 0 enough.

That's rather fitting for a thread about combined alternate class features.

That reminds me of when I was foolish enough to allow a player to combine Berserker Strength and Frenzy. Of course, that's nothing compared to the Psio-martial-arcane grey goo we've created.

[DreadWarlock]

would it be op (if swordsage can be an arcane variant) for a regular swordsage to be able to qualify for prestige classes that advance spellcasting and to get the benefit of advancing in swordsage for meneouvres

Edit: I'm the DM and if it is not unbalancing i would allow it but if you think it is too broken than i will not allow

[Phelix-Mu]

It's better to start a new thread than resurrect old ones. Being the first post in a new thread also tends to get more people answering the OP's inquiry, as opposed to chiming in their thoughts.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The standard reading of the tiny amount of text presented for Arcane Swordsage places it squarely at Tier 0 (it can break the game in every possible way, all the time, and at 17th level it can do it infinite times per action).

If you play it as is, it's not balanced because you can cast any wizard spell available to a caster of your level infinite times per day by level 3.
Oh, it's absolutely borked without a heavily restricted list, but... how are you getting any spell available? The book says "learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level." Which... would seem to imply that you can only learn 25 spells over the 20 levels. Which is not to say that it's not hideously borked, but...

[Douglas]

Hey, be nice, these forums at least aren't all that conducive to searching if you don't already know what you're after.

For local work, douglas has a layout for converting spells to maneuvers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187632&highlight=arcane+swordsage) that should be reasonably functional.
Nice to see my work already linked.:smallbiggrin:


Oh, it's absolutely borked without a heavily restricted list, but... how are you getting any spell available? The book says "learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level." Which... would seem to imply that you can only learn 25 spells over the 20 levels. Which is not to say that it's not hideously borked, but...
Heroics spell from Spell Compendium. Level 2, gives a temporary fighter bonus feat. Use it to get Martial Study, which a broad interpretation of Arcane Swordsage would turn into temporarily getting an extra spell. Pick a new and different one each time you use Heroics.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please avoid thread necromancy.