Making Hellfire part of the Warlock; what should options for non-Fiend power be?

[FMArthur]

Edit: All done now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11617491#post11617491). Thanks for the input, everyone. Let me know what you think of it in its homebrew thread.

I was writing this as a reply to the recent Warlock pacts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210901) thread, but I realized this is too big a hijack to do that.

Since getting into Hellfire Warlock, extending Hellfire Warlock and mitigating Hellfire penalties are all 'simply superior' options to vanilla Warlocks, I'm just going to houserule them to be part of the base class, make it usable earlier and do away with HFW. Prestige classes should be trades for specialization, not ++. But when I started to do it I couldn't help but think it should be just one of many options you could get according to what your power source is: Hellfire would just be for Devils, or maybe just all Fiends in general.

Milo v3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11608658&postcount=11) posted the common sources for a Warlock's power as listed in Complete Mage in the other thread. I'm currently modifying it to this:
Celestials - Eladrin, Angels, and [Good] Outsiders in general.
Dragons - The Genghis Khan of D&D ancestry.
Far Realm - This is more of a 'corrupted by contact' thing than any sort of interspecies breeding.
Fey - Another popular ancestry, often tied to nature.
Fiends - Devils, Demons, and any [Evil] Outsiders in general.
Self - Ki energy. You shouldn't have to bind yourself to some weirdos or be born special. This is a world of magic, after all.

What do you guys think the corresponding powers of non-Fiend based Warlocks should be? I'd be happy to hear your ideas on this GitP, no matter how vague they might be. I don't even have basic concepts for what they should be at this point.

If you do want to be specific on what abilities you think they might give, here's what the baseline (Fiend) would be:
[B]Hellfire Blast: Starting at 2nd level, you can choose to take 1 Con damage to improve the damage of your Eldritch Blast until the start of your next turn. This makes your Eldritch Blast deal extra damage equal to half your Warlock level in d6s. You only gain this ability's benefit if you take its Constitution damage.

Take a Breather: A number of times per day equal to your Charisma bonus (if any) + your Warlock level, you can recover 1 point of lost Constitution due to Hellfire Blast at the end of your turn if you did not use Hellfire Blast on your turn. You automatically heal the remainder of the Constitution damage from Hellfire Blast when you rest for 8 hours.

[Philistine]

Something like the following?
Far Realm:
Maddening Blast: Add 1/4 levels Wis damage to your Eldritch Blast, but take -1 to Will saves (cumulative) each time you use the ability.
Get a Grip: Cha/day, negate -1 penalty to Will saves imposed by Maddening Blast (or recover fully after 8 hours rest).

[Drachasor]

Hmm, I'd the Dragon origin should be that they can add half their level in d6's to EB, but they can only do this once every 3 rounds (e.g. they have to wait two rounds) -- I suppose you could have this as a 1d4 roll like dragons. If they use an AoE Blast Shape with this ability, any DC to reduce or avoid the damage is increased by 2.

I like the idea of a Timelock. If he doesn't use his blast in one round, the next round he adds half his level in d6's to the damage if he does use it (maybe this requires a swift or move action to delay the blast the previous round). (I guess this would work for Ki too, but I like the time-manipulation flavor).

Both of these would have an advantage in that there's no ability damage. On the other hand, they can't use the effect multiple rounds in a row.

[satorian]

I don't think it fits flavor for Celestial-types to take ability damage, as in my reading, GOOD doesn't tend to eat away at one's soul or blood (ymmv, but that's my read). As such, I'd go for something maybe less potent that requires a smaller sacrifice.

Some options:

CHA+lvl/2 times a day +10 sacred bonus to overcome SR. No drawback.

CHA+lvl times a day turn blast to sacred. No drawback.

CHA+lvl times a day +(lvl/2)d6 holy damage. Will save to avoid fatigue.

[gkathellar]

If you're considering more power sources: Time-travelling moon princess. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6mwxMDO88s)

[satorian]

Actually kind of surprised this isn't getting more attention. Maybe it should be in homebrew? Fixing the obvious "only do this if you are a warlock" thing I read as kind of important. You know, by hobby standards.

[Drachasor]

Actually kind of surprised this isn't getting more attention. Maybe it should be in homebrew? Fixing the obvious "only do this if you are a warlock" thing I read as kind of important. You know, by hobby standards.

Well, it IS homebrew, so it should be in homebrew.

[Greenish]

[Good] bloodline could get option to deal more damage, but all of the damage dealt turns non-lethal (maybe with provision for dealing lethal damage on those immune to non-lethal such as undead and constructs).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, I'd like to see this go to a full-on 'brew. I like the ideas of not all warlocks being the same, instead drawing from different sources of powers.

A quick and dirty route would be to take the pre-existing Warlock class as is, remove some of the stuffs (Energy resistances, the specific DR, other stuff I'm probably forgetting about) and then just throwing out a set of either themed invocations (Special: Must be a Fey/Fiend/BLAH Warlock) or just creating several "kits" that allow people to further specialize but otherwise leave the pre-existing (PrC) class options in place.

EDIT: Give me sometime in the next 24 hours and I'll flesh this idea out, probably throwing you a PM, FMArthur, and getting this overhaul off the ground.

[NNescio]

I don't think it fits flavor for Celestial-types to take ability damage, as in my reading, GOOD doesn't tend to eat away at one's soul or blood (ymmv, but that's my read). As such, I'd go for something maybe less potent that requires a smaller sacrifice.

Well, there's Sanctified Spells from BoED...

(...Which is a rather contentious book, admittedly.)

[FMArthur]

Okay, here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211104) what I've got so far. They are not totally what was suggested, but I did start from the ideas you guys came up with. Celestial in particular seems nothing like the ideas here, but the concept still came from the idea that holy power should be protective and defensive. Then I sort of ran with it a bit, thinking of Good crusader character concepts who didn't want to play nice with exalted and nonlethal stuff, and also thinking of potentially Evil character concepts that would exploit the powers of Good as well. I also figured that a purely defensive ability would be ignored in actual play unless it was preposterously good, so I tried to think of it in terms of an offensive ability that would be used defensively. The result was a damaging counterattack ability.

Thanks for all your input, guys. I still don't have Self and Fey yet. I can probably come up with Self, but I have no idea what a Fey Warlock should do.

[The Glyphstone]

A Fey Warlock should be very heavy on status effects, to complement the trickery/beguiling theme of fey in general. Maybe a slightly slower Blast Progression, but a wider variety of Essence effects, higher DCs for their Essences, and the ability to combo multiple Essences into one blast.


EDIT: eh, I read your thread now. Maybe just the Essence-combo. Say, they can choose to degrade the die size of their Eldritch Blast to d4's, and in exchange, apply two Eldritch Essences to that attack instead of one, and increase the saves of those Essences by +1 or +2? Their Recovery ability would instead be the power to double-Essence without reducing the damage dice.

[Treblain]

A Fey Warlock should be very heavy on status effects, to complement the trickery/beguiling theme of fey in general. Maybe a slightly slower Blast Progression, but a wider variety of Essence effects, higher DCs for their Essences, and the ability to combo multiple Essences into one blast.


I've got an idea for Fey Warlocks:

Shimmering Blast: Your eldritch attacks shine with a feyborn light that beguiles your enemies and makes them unsure of your position. When you deal damage with your Eldritch Blast, you gain a miss chance against enemy attacks equal to 5% multiplied by half your warlock level until the end of your next turn.

I'm not exactly sure what a good drawback would be. My idea was that whenever you take damage, you take one or two additional damage, but I'm not certain if that balances well.

[FMArthur]

A Fey Warlock should be very heavy on status effects, to complement the trickery/beguiling theme of fey in general. Maybe a slightly slower Blast Progression, but a wider variety of Essence effects, higher DCs for their Essences, and the ability to combo multiple Essences into one blast.


EDIT: eh, I read your thread now. Maybe just the Essence-combo. Say, they can choose to degrade the die size of their Eldritch Blast to d4's, and in exchange, apply two Eldritch Essences to that attack instead of one, and increase the saves of those Essences by +1 or +2? Their Recovery ability would instead be the power to double-Essence without reducing the damage dice.
That sounds like a fun and interesting ability. I think I'll work with this one.


I've got an idea for Fey Warlocks:

Shimmering Blast: Your eldritch attacks shine with a feyborn light that beguiles your enemies and makes them unsure of your position. When you deal damage with your Eldritch Blast, you gain a miss chance against enemy attacks equal to 5% multiplied by half your warlock level until the end of your next turn.

I'm not exactly sure what a good drawback would be. My idea was that whenever you take damage, you take one or two additional damage, but I'm not certain if that balances well.

Heheh, right up until the last moment the Celestial one was called Shimmering Blast. Anyway, I'm concerned that this idea isn't really comparable to Hellfire or the other power-boosting options, which are direct and significant offensive boosts. It's also not applicable to enough situations and types of battles.


I added the Self (Ki) power source a little while ago before I left. Here it is:

[hr]Self (Ki)
[hr]
Lifestrike: As you focus, you begin to 'feel' the lifeforce of your target, finding a way to attack it more directly with your own. Even soulless magical creatures have a 'core' of magic that binds them which you can search out and target. As a standard action, you can make a Concentration check against the Armor Class of one opponent you can see. If you succeed, your Eldritch Blasts against them gain a +1 bonus on the attack roll and +1d6 to the damage until the target leaves your sight or you use this ability again. The bonus on the attack and damage increases by +1 and +1d6 respectively for every three Warlock levels after 2nd. The activation of this ability bears no visible sign.

You can attempt to activate this ability as a Swift action with a -5 penalty to the Concentration check, but it leaves you fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) for one minute at the start of your next turn. If you are already fatigued you are exhausted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) instead, but if you are already exhausted you are rendered unconscious. The durations for each instance of this drawback are still separate, so if you are unconscious and one instance of this drawback expires, you awaken exhausted.

Wild Talent: You gain 2 psionic power points, and with them the ability to become psionically focused (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus) and take psionic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicFeats.htm).[hr]

Is this satisfactory? I want to know if this is too weak, too strong, too boring, too psionic, etc. I also just made an adjustment to Far Realm one, letting it last for 3 + half your Warlock level in rounds and nixing the extra Intimidate bonus (it will already be easy to succeed on it). It can now advance people from panicked to cowering.