Melee druid/swordsage - need ToB advice

[WarKitty]

I'm working on a build exclusively to take advantage of wild shape. Sources are Core, UA, and ToB only. So far I have druid 4, feats extend spell, and and martial study x2 (maneuvers burning blade and fire riposte). Stats Str 14, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 10

Now I have enough experience with druids as casters/controllers, but I have little with druids as frontliners, particularly with such a limited spell list. I'm limiting myself primarily to buffs, although produce flame is also a nice one to add to natural attacks.

Right now I was thinking either druid8/swordsage12 or druid10/swordsage10. Druid 8 gets me wild shape (large) and the ability to stay in it all day; I don't get another useful wild shape till level 15. Druid 10 gives me access to 5th level spells - mainly animal growth. There's really not much past 5th level that I'm interested in.

Natural spell at level 6, obviously, but also - what kind of feats do I want to choose on a build like this? And for maximizing melee capacity where's the best cutoff point for druid? Persist spell isn't in the game, and I'd rather not spend more than 1 round buffing if I can help it.

[Urpriest]

Just in case: Animal Growth is for your animal companion, not you. Your type doesn't change while in Wild Shape, see errata.

[WarKitty]

Just in case: Animal Growth is for your animal companion, not you. Your type doesn't change while in Wild Shape, see errata.

Ah good point. Since I picked a companion for versatility rather than combat, that makes Druid 8 look like a better stopping point, unless I want to use quickened buffs (which for level 1, might as well buy the rod if I can figure out how to work it in wild shape).

[WarKitty]

Anything? I've never worked with ToB before...

[Drachasor]

Honestly? Straight Druid will serve you best. You'll get more and more powerful forms as you level and more and more powerful spells. Personally I don't think a Swordsage would add all that much comparatively.

You also get hit point buffers going straight druid. Summon Nature's Ally is powerful.

[WarKitty]

Honestly? Straight Druid will serve you best. You'll get more and more powerful forms as you level and more and more powerful spells. Personally I don't think a Swordsage would add all that much comparatively.
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You also get hit point buffers going straight druid. Summon Nature's Ally is powerful.

To be clear: I'm not interested in straight power. I'm not interested in casting power except as it relates directly to buffing myself. And I'm definitely not interested in SNA unless I'm really desparate. I'm interested in being the best shapechanging frontline melee brute I can possibly be. The only reason I'm not taking wildshape ranger is that it's "small or medium animals only."

[BlueInc]

Maybe take a level of swordsage later on for cool high-level stance and the WIS to AC?

[Urpriest]

To be clear: I'm not interested in straight power. I'm not interested in casting power except as it relates directly to buffing myself. And I'm definitely not interested in SNA unless I'm really desparate. I'm interested in being the best shapechanging frontline melee brute I can possibly be. The only reason I'm not taking wildshape ranger is that it's "small or medium animals only."

Master of Many Forms fixes that.

[WarKitty]

The other issue I've seen - most of the good large forms in core are at 8hd. I don't get huge wild shape till level 15, which leaves me with 6 levels where I'm not getting much that fits with my character.

Edit @ Urpriest: Core/UA/ToB only

[Urpriest]

The other issue I've seen - most of the good large forms in core are at 8hd. I don't get huge wild shape till level 15, which leaves me with 6 levels where I'm not getting much that fits with my character.

Edit @ Urpriest: Core/UA/ToB only

Ah yes missed that.

And really, I don't see Druid 8/Swordsage 12 as all that bad, considering. Buffs are a bit limited given your sources, but you've got a few decent ones anyway. You'll definitely want Improved Unarmed Strike either as a feat or from Unarmed Swordsage in order to get iteratives in wild shape.

[Big Fau]

Why not use Wildshape Ranger with Swordsage instead of Druid? People are going to keep suggesting pure Druid since it's superior to Swordsage levels.


Alternatively, Totemist.

[Drachasor]

To be clear: I'm not interested in straight power. I'm not interested in casting power except as it relates directly to buffing myself. And I'm definitely not interested in SNA unless I'm really desparate. I'm interested in being the best shapechanging frontline melee brute I can possibly be. The only reason I'm not taking wildshape ranger is that it's "small or medium animals only."

Yeah, and the hit dice of assumed forms can't exceed your druid level. You need to be level 15 as a druid to turn into Huge creatures.

Don't dismiss some of the other uses of SNA. It can help keep monsters from running and Unicorns can provide nice healing.

As for spells:
5th Level: Stoneskin, Wall of Thorns is pretty awesome to keep guys pinned so you can wail on them, Death Ward is an important defensive spell, Tree Stride is great for hit and run attacks (sometimes needed)

6th LeveL: Anti-life Shell (living things can't get close unless you choose to get close to them...they are kept at CHARGE distance away from you), Repel Wood can be useful to weaken opponents using anything with a wooden haft

7th Level: Heal (useful for any front-liner), True Seeing (no worries about anything invisible)

8th Level: Animal Shapes (everyone in the party is a melee monster!), Repel Metal or Stone (see Repel Wood), Reverse Gravity (floating people to tear apart)

9th Level: Foresight (made of win), Shapechange (become a dragon or anything else) -- Shapechange alone is better than anything the Swordsage could ever do.

And again, the SNA's are pretty handy even if you don't want to use them that much. Especially at higher levels you can get summons JUST to have the debuff the enemy and buff you and others. That helps any melee monster.

Tons of utility spells don't hurt.

Huge Wildshapes are extremely useful if you want to trample (handy against armies) or do combat at sea (giant squid). Plants shouldn't be ignored either, as they give you some useful options like the Shambling Mound.

The swordsage is a great class, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it mixes well with a Druid.

[WarKitty]

Yeah, and the hit dice of assumed forms can't exceed your druid level. You need to be level 15 as a druid to turn into Huge creatures.


The other issue I've seen - most of the good large forms in core are at 8hd. I don't get huge wild shape till level 15, which leaves me with 6 levels where I'm not getting much that fits with my character.

The other rule is that I don't want to spend more than 1 round per battle casting (like I mentioned in the OP).

[Drachasor]

The other rule is that I don't want to spend more than 1 round per battle casting (like I mentioned in the OP).

Grab Quicken Spell then. You'll have to go with lower level spells, but it is still useful. Also, quite of few of those spells can be used well before combat, since their duration is minute/level or ten times that. The Druid actually has a ton of spells like that, which can be used to help affect things outside of combat and later on even help combat without using up any combat actions.

[DeAnno]

This seems like a cool idea. One thing you might want to do after Druid is go for a Wild Shaping PRC. Nature's Warrior is especially attractive because it advances Shaping and some casting in addition to its other abilities.

For example, Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 2/Swordsage 2/Nature's Warrior +3 (5)/Warshaper 5/Swordsage +2 (4) gives some still fairly impressive Swordsage abilities (3rd level maneuvers for the first pair of levels, 6th level for the last pair) along with a lot more cool Wild Shape stuff. If you want more or less Swordsage, or to get it at different times, you can shift all of that around pretty easily too. The build above gives 8th level casting and 11th level shaping, but if you do Druid 4/Swordsage 2/Nature's Warrior 5 to start with instead you get 6th level casting and 9th level shaping but 2 more free levels (though no Wild shape at all until level 7).

[WarKitty]

Grab Quicken Spell then. You'll have to go with lower level spells, but it is still useful. Also, quite of few of those spells can be used well before combat, since their duration is minute/level or ten times that. The Druid actually has a ton of spells like that, which can be used to help affect things outside of combat and later on even help combat without using up any combat actions.

I don't know...it might be different with a new group, but every time I've played you either buff at the beginning of the day or during combat. Maybe you'll get one round beforehand if you're really lucky. But anything that's not hours/level is going to have to be cast in combat.

I'm just really not liking druid 20 - it feels like I'm just playing another caster, which isn't what I want to play. I want to play something that's focused on having options in melee combat, rather than something that works by standing around casting a bunch of spells.


This seems like a cool idea. One thing you might want to do after Druid is go for a Wild Shaping PRC. Nature's Warrior is especially attractive because it advances Shaping and some casting in addition to its other abilities.

For example, Druid 6/Nature's Warrior 2/Swordsage 2/Nature's Warrior +3 (5)/Warshaper 5/Swordsage +2 (4) gives some still fairly impressive Swordsage abilities (3rd level maneuvers for the first pair of levels, 6th level for the last pair) along with a lot more cool Wild Shape stuff. If you want more or less Swordsage, or to get it at different times, you can shift all of that around pretty easily too. The build above gives 8th level casting and 11th level shaping, but if you do Druid 4/Swordsage 2/Nature's Warrior 5 to start with instead you get 6th level casting and 9th level shaping but 2 more free levels (though no Wild shape at all until level 7).

Natures warrior and Warshaper aren't in play.

[Tvtyrant]

You could go Cleric 1/Druid 5/Swordsage/Red Ruby Vindicator and get casting and maneuvers at the same time. Medium size is all you need for Leopard, Fleshraker or Deinonychus. These all have Pounce and a number of natural attacks you can use along with your stances and swift action maneuvers. Habe RRV progress Druid casting and you lose a single level (which you can use for, say, Luck and Trickery domains).

[Drachasor]

I'd see if your DM would let you fiddle with one of the PrCs in ToB to make into a Druid/Martial Adept PrC. I'd help you work on that if he/she would go for it. I am sure other people on the Homebrew Forum would help out too.

[WarKitty]

I'd see if your DM would let you fiddle with one of the PrCs in ToB to make into a Druid/Martial Adept PrC. I'd help you work on that if he/she would go for it. I am sure other people on the Homebrew Forum would help out too.

No homebrew please. I'm going to have to be pretty firm on that one.

[Togath]

One option could be to go shapeshifter druid(from phb2, it grants at will shapeshift, from level one, but you can't cast spells, and it costs you your druid animal companion and wildshape) with the AoE heal over time ability(grants a fair amount a fast healing by expending a spell, and can be used while wildshaped or shapeshifted, but replaces spontanious SNA, also from phb2)

[Xtomjames]

Personally I'd go the druid 8 swordsage 12, and take several levels in the swordsage with the adaptation to swap out arcane spells as SU/EX maneuvers. Then you can swap a 5th level maneuver for Draconic Polymorph and maybe a few others for True Strike and maybe fast healing or cure critical wounds. Take Adaptive Style and Assume Supernatural abilities to let you use your maneuvers while in your wild shape form (which you can't do otherwise). Natural spell, par the usual course, and you'll be good to go.

[Togath]

Am I the only one who read the part about her not wanting to play a caster who happens to be in bear form, and instead be in a wildshape form for mainly melee combat, rather than using spells?, or at least I think thats what she means(no spells meaning not casting flamestrike, and instead using a claw or bite attack)

[Morbis Meh]

The kind of monstrosity you want to play is a DMM:Persist Cleric, you can buff yourself at the beginning of the day and destroy everything in melee combat whenever you feel like, if you do Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Cleric 5 with practiced spellcaster you get level 7 maneuvers and level 8 spells. If you have your heart set on a Druid go for it but if it is for only wildshape, I suggest cleric and with weejas you should be able to take the spell domain and thereby cast and persist polymorph on yourself to make yourself I giant.

[Fouredged Sword]

At 15th level turn into a dire tortis and never look back. You get to act on suprise rounds... Always.

You always get a free standard action to buff yourself even if there is normaly not a suprise round, and if there is a suprise round you get to act in if even if you wouldn't normaly.

It's a very powerful and unique wildshape ability, matched with a huge form and nice reach.

Overland flight yourelf into a unstopable flying tortis-disk!

[WarKitty]

The kind of monstrosity you want to play is a DMM:Persist Cleric, you can buff yourself at the beginning of the day and destroy everything in melee combat whenever you feel like, if you do Cloistered Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Cleric 5 with practiced spellcaster you get level 7 maneuvers and level 8 spells. If you have your heart set on a Druid go for it but if it is for only wildshape, I suggest cleric and with weejas you should be able to take the spell domain and thereby cast and persist polymorph on yourself to make yourself I giant.

Of course, persist spell isn't core...


At 15th level turn into a dire tortis and never look back. You get to act on suprise rounds... Always.

You always get a free standard action to buff yourself even if there is normaly not a suprise round, and if there is a suprise round you get to act in if even if you wouldn't normaly.

It's a very powerful and unique wildshape ability, matched with a huge form and nice reach.

Overland flight yourelf into a unstopable flying tortis-disk!

Neither is the dire tortoise.

[Talya]

I LOVE the flavor of swordsage mixed with druid. You've got some choices to make. It helps to break them down.

Druid 6/Swordsage 14. Only 2 use of wildshape a day for 6 hours each, i would take extra wildshape. Medium size is as big as it gets, but you're versatile. Initiator level 17, you get to have a couple 9th level maneuvers, too.

Druid 8/Swordsage 12. Large wildshape, no forms above 8HD. Initiator level 16, you're using Level 8 maneuvers. (Too bad, no way to get 9th level maneuvers.) Only 3 wildshape uses a day, but they last 8 hours each, so you're okay.

Druid 15/Swordsage 5. This gets you huge wildshape, and 15 HD animal forms. Your initiator level is only 12, so 6th level maneuvers. Tons of wildshape uses a day, spells you don't care about, blah blah blah.

Druid 17/Swordsage 3. You think I'm here for Elemental Wildshape? Well, you get it, but that's not why. With an Initiator level of 11 (still 6th level maneuvers), this one gets something special. I know you don't care about spells, but Shapechange makes your entire wildshape class feature irrelevant. It's superior in every way except duration (10 minutes/caster level.) You'll get it 1-2 times a day. You're only casting it to become a big melee brute.

The irony here, is the most caster-like of the three of them is also the biggest melee brute. However, I could totally understand even wanting to go with the first one. (Shapechange would be frustrating for being 3 hit dice away from being a titan swordsage. Oooh, what love for the gargantuan unarmed martial adept.)

Note that for all of these builds, you would want the unarmed swordsage variant, and take your swordsage levels last, to get higher maneuvers and stances. (Including that first level stance. The wording only forces it to be a 1st level stance at level 1 "on character creation." If you multiclass into it later, you can select a higher level stance.)