Melee Bard idea [need help]

[Drinzor]

I've been working on a level 8 Melee bard for some time, and when I tried my Google-fu, and found this forum, I am fairly new In DnD creation so I might need some help. I found my self looking at the build made with

level 1: Bard - TWF, Force of personality
level 2: Bard
level 3: Bard - Song of the heart
level 4: Swashbuckler - weapon Finesse
level 5: Swashbukler
level 6: Swashbuckler (open, was thinking Extra songs)


Source: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210874

the idea is he need to be support and melee, looked at wardancer Prc. but its hard to meet the requirements, does anyone have some good ideas?

[Keld Denar]

More bard, less non-bard.

Inspire Courage is the best thing you can do to boost combat prowass. Anything you do that gives you less Inspire Courage is making you less of a powerful combatant. So...yea.

The only multiclasses to consider on a melee bard is Warblade or Crusader (or both), since Song of the White Raven stacks them for Inspire Courage (but no other songs). Otherwise stick to straight bard, since a Crystal Echoblade (MIC) will result in more damage/hit than any punny ability like Insightful Strike could give.

[Seerow]

Drop all the Swash levels. Pick up Snowflake Wardance. Instead of Int to damage, you get Cha to hit and damage.

[marcielle]

Never actually used it but I heard snowflake wardance from Frostburn is a must have for battlebards. Might wanna check it out.

Edit: SWORDSAGE'D DANGIT

[Hiro Protagonest]

Drop all the Swash levels and take ten levels of War Chanter. Pick up Snowflake Wardance. Instead of Int to damage, you get Cha to hit and damage.

Fixed that for you. :smallcool:

[Saintheart]

On that Crystal Echoblade that Keld mentioned, make sure you put the Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement (PHB II, +2,000 gold to value of a weapon). This gives you a stun attack which keys off Charisma, which for bards is their primary stat. Take this and the party monk no longer has anything unique to justify his existence :smallbiggrin:


Drop all the Swash levels. Pick up Snowflake Wardance. Instead of Int to damage, you get Cha to hit but not to damage.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

[Seerow]

Fixed that for you. :smallcool:

Level 8 build doesn't allow for 10 levels of warchanter. It does allow for snowflake wardance :p

[Acanous]

you might wish to take a level of Marshal (Miniatures Handbook) for a Minor Aura keyed off Charisma, but yes, snowflake wardance :3

Also, google-fu "X Stat to Y bonus". it's on this forum somewhere, and has everything you need to make Charisma king of stats, including book, page number, and what it is :D

[Drinzor]

wow okay loads of post fast... :)


so quick question two weapons or 1? since Snowflake wardance is awesome :) but the wardancer requires combat exp and Wep focus.


and song of the heart does increase my Inspire shizzle :)

[Greenish]

Level 8 build doesn't allow for 10 levels of warchanter. It does allow for snowflake wardance :pSnowflake Wardance is a bit meh. Maybe if you're TWFing and need lots of hit.

[Edit]: TWF depends on preference, but I might skip it, it eats feats you could be doing neater things with.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Level 8 build doesn't allow for 10 levels of warchanter. It does allow for snowflake wardance :p

Take War Chanter anyway. Full BAB and progresses bardic music. Stay in it for all 10 levels.

[Drinzor]

well we start at level 8 but we will progress :)

[Seerow]

Take War Chanter anyway. Full BAB and progresses bardic music. Stay in it for all 10 levels.

Personally I'd aim for Song of White Raven and multiclass Crusader instead if it were possible (I believe it's possible to have that and snowflake wardance by level 8, but I'm not certain, the prereqs may not allow it til 9. Don't have the relevant books handy atm)


Snowflake Wardance is a bit meh. Maybe if you're TWFing and need lots of hit.


Applying your primary stat to both hit and damage as a melee is nothing to scoff at, whether you TWF or not. If nothing else with a THW you can grab snowflake wardance and use that extra +hit for power attacking without needing to charge.



The only way it wouldn't be awesome is if you can't use SFWD and Inspire Courage at the same time. I've always assumed you could use both, but it just occurred to me that since SFWD requires a bardic music charge it could be seen as a song and thus can't be used together. In which case, yeah, I'd rather have IC with the relevant feats/items augmenting that.

[Drinzor]

As I said I am new in this so SFWD = ???


and My GM just Said Tome Of Battle is a no go... so we need to stay away from that...

I was considering taking a rapier and dagger concept but cant use that with Snowflake, so duel dagger?


and what race? atm I am thinking Human since its a feat and some skills

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I see a lack of Dragonfire Adept in this build which needs to be rectified.

xd6 where x = your IC number. It's, bar none, the best damage multiplier a bard can get his hands on. There's a pair of gloves which gives you TWF. DFI really is all that good. You may need a feat on Dragontouched to get it, though.

Then, some other items you can use for DFI optimization:

Vest of Legends: increases Bard level for IC by 5

Badge of Valor: Use as a swift action to increase IC by 1

MW Mandolin: increase IC by +1. If you don't want to use a mandolin, see if you can get another type of instrument which doesn't need to be equipped. Maybe a kazoo? Elan did it, after all. With a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade, you won't need it after the first round, since Harmonizing lets it be automatically maintained for 10 rounds. So, how fast can you switch stuff out after your first round?

If you really want to take DFI to warp speed, go Draconic Heretage: War Dragon. Sonic damage on DFI = fun times.

[Seerow]

As I said I am new in this so SFWD = ???

SFWD=Snowflake War Dance



and My GM just Said Tome Of Battle is a no go... so we need to stay away from that...

Whack your GM upside the head with the book a few times, then play a sublime chord instead of a melee bard. :p


Joking of course sort of

[Vladislav]

Applying your primary stat to both hit and damage as a melee is nothing to scoff at, whether you TWF or not. If nothing else with a THW you can grab snowflake wardance and use that extra +hit for power attacking without needing to charge.
Alas, Snowflake Wardance only applies to slashing weapons held in one hand.

[Drinzor]

SFWD=Snowflake War Dance




Whack your GM upside the head with the book a few times, then play a sublime chord instead of a melee bard. :p


Joking of course sort of

why the joke? want to whack him some ;) but Staying with melee bard/buffer

[ShneekeyTheLost]

why the joke? want to whack him some ;) but Staying with melee bard/buffer

Warblade for Bardblade is always nice, but it's not strictly necessary.

Just go straight Bard. It's 3/4 BAB, okay HD for a 'striker', and your IC/DFI can still buff the whole party. And the more Bard levels you have, the more damage your Crystal Echoblade does. It's basically bonus damage equal to your Bard levels... and it IS a slashing weapon held in one hand, so Snowflake Wardance is a go.

But seriously, Dragonfire Adept. Learn it, love it, live it.

[Seerow]

Alas, Snowflake Wardance only applies to slashing weapons held in one hand.

Man my memory is totally wrong on all sorts of levels today :/

[Drinzor]

okay so we go bard all ze way xD


level 1: bard
level 2: bard
level 3: bard
level 4: bard
level 5: bard
level 6: bard
level 7: PrC`???
level 8: PrC`???


feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
Human: Weapon focus (longsword)
3: Song of the heart
6: Snowflake Battledance


Bonus stats:
4: cha
8: cha

[Drinzor]

Alas, Snowflake Wardance only applies to slashing weapons held in one hand.

aint Longsword not a slashing wep hold in one hand?

[Seerow]

aint Longsword not a slashing wep hold in one hand?

Yeah, he was referring to my suggestion of grabbing a two hander and power attacking people with the extra to-hit from wardance, pointing out that two handing a weapon isn't possible with it.

[Drinzor]

oh my bad :)

posting going so fast I cant keep up :)

but what how does my character from 1-6(8) look? dont know wardancer and what it does require, but my gm said He think it was wep focus from feats

[Seerow]

oh my bad :)

posting going so fast I cant keep up :)

but what how does my character from 1-6(8) look? dont know wardancer and what it does require, but my gm said He think it was wep focus from feats

Dunno about War Dancer, but the War Chanter prestige that was mentioned above by Swiftmongoose requires Weapon Focus and Combat Expertise.

[Vladislav]

I think a better build would be:

Bard 1 (Song of the Heart, TWF)
Warblade 1 or Crusader (at least one White Raven Stance, at least one White Raven Manuever)
Bard 2 (Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories skill trick)
Bard 3
Bard 4
Bard 5 (Snowflake Wardance), try to get a Crystal Echoblade ASAP. In fact try to get two, for TWF.

So, your BAB by level 6 is only +4, but you add CHA to attacks and damage, add Knowledge Devotion bonuses to attack and damage (usually +2 or +3 at this level, and is only going to go higher), and the entire party adds +2 to attack and damage for Bardic music (+3 a couple more levels down the road). And of course there are the Warblade/Crusader manuevers/stances with whatever bonuses they provide.

This all adds up to pretty impressive melee output.

[Keld Denar]

Joking of course
No you aren't, admit it. We see straight through you...


okay so we go bard all ze way xD


level 1: bard
level 2: bard
level 3: bard
level 4: bard
level 5: bard
level 6: bard
level 7: PrC`???
level 8: PrC`???


feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
Human: Weapon focus (longsword)
3: Song of the heart
6: Snowflake Battledance


Bonus stats:
4: cha
8: cha

Longsword isn't a finesse weapon, so no flying there. Also, why do you need to PrC? Don't. Straight Bard would be better for a non-ToB melee bard. Boost IC, hard. Boost your Bard level for moar Echoblade damage.

[Drinzor]

I think a better build would be:

Bard 1 (Song of the Heart, TWF)
Warblade 1 or Crusader (at least one White Raven Stance, at least one White Raven Manuever)
Bard 2 (Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories skill trick)
Bard 3
Bard 4
Bard 5 (Snowflake Wardance), try to get a Crystal Echoblade ASAP. In fact try to get two, for TWF.

So, your BAB by level 6 is only +4, but you add CHA to attacks and damage, add Knowledge Devotion bonuses to attack and damage (usually +2 or +3 at this level, and is only going to go higher), and the entire party adds +2 to attack and damage for Bardic music (+3 a couple more levels down the road). And of course there are the Warblade/Crusader manuevers/stances with whatever bonuses they provide.

This all adds up to pretty impressive melee output.

song of the heart requires 6 ranks in preform cant be tanken as level 1

and we cant go into Tome of battle so it dont work.

[Drinzor]

No you aren't, admit it. We see straight through you...

dammit :D




Longsword isn't a finesse weapon, so no flying there. Also, why do you need to PrC? Don't. Straight Bard would be better for a non-ToB melee bard. Boost IC, hard. Boost your Bard level for moar Echoblade damage.

hmm thought you could use dex on longsword.

okay bard all the way then maybe, just a bid.. well I am not use to staying to one class all the way xD kinda wired

[Keld Denar]

Whats gonna be the delta between your Dex and Str. Cause if the difference in bonus is like, +3 or more, Weapon Finesse isn't gonna be really worth it anyway. If you have a 10 Str and a 14 Dex, Finesse is only giving you a +2. Given that Echoblades are a Longsword (unless your DM lets you have an Echoscimitar or Echodagger), I'd say that your best bet would just be to skip it. Possibly even out your stats. Instead of 10/14, shift to a 12/12 on pointbuy. Its the same cost, loses you 1 AC and 1 Init, but gives you +1 hit and +1 damage/hit.

[Drinzor]

think he said 32 point buy not sure :)

but never the less could someone please set up a feat list and class choice, so many good ideas here so its hard to find the best setup (WITHOUT ToB) maybe some of you extreme uptimizers can do something awesome

[ShneekeyTheLost]

okay so we go bard all ze way xD


level 1: bard
level 2: bard
level 3: bard
level 4: bard
level 5: bard
level 6: bard
level 7: PrC`???
level 8: PrC`???


feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
Human: Weapon focus (longsword)
3: Song of the heart
6: Snowflake Battledance


Bonus stats:
4: cha
8: cha

Bard and more Bard. And dump Weapon Finesse/Weapon Focus. They suck.

Get Dragontouched and Dragonfire Inspiration in their place. Trust me, you'll thank me later.

Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade. Harmonizing means you can 'twist' songs very easily. So you can have both DFI and IC going.

As far as PrC's... Seeker of the Song isn't bad for a 5 level splash. Combine Songs is good for pull off both DFI and IC, and Subvocalize is also handy. Song of Life means you can be a darn good backup healer, since you heal a number of points equal to your Perform Check... and a one-level dip in Exemplar lets you Take 10 on Perform checks...

War Chanter is yet another good option. 5 levels nets you Inspire Recklessness, which is similar in concept, though less powerful than, Shock Trooper. The bonuses stack, though, so have fun! It also nets you Combine Songs.

But really, if you're going War Chanter, go all the way home with Warchanter 10 for Inspire Legion... the effects are awesome!

However, it requires bogus feats to get in.

So, your options are:

DFI out of the box, and straight bard

OR:

Bard6/Warchanter2 and continue with Warchanter to capstone, with the feats you currently have.

The choice is yours...

[Greenish]

Applying your primary stat to both hit and damage as a melee is nothing to scoff at, whether you TWF or not.No matter how often you claim it, Snowflake Wardance does not add Charisma to damage. This has already been pointed out.

As for hit, yeah, it's okay if you have troubles hitting, but it does cost you a feat, bardic music attempts and limits your weapon options.

[Seerow]

No matter how often you claim it, Snowflake Wardance does not add Charisma to damage. This has already been pointed out.

As for hit, yeah, it's okay if you have troubles hitting, but it does cost you a feat, bardic music attempts and limits your weapon options.

I reject your reality and substitute it with my own!





And now if I were more dedicated to this I'd put up a dummy site with the feat showing a bonus to damage and looking totally legit.

[Drinzor]

just looked at what I am going to play with and I have some Minor chances to my build.

oh and thank you so much for helping :=)


I need to be able to do fairly amount of damage in melee with a weapon (just one)

and I need to boost my IC as high as possible.

rules: No ToB, and only legit 3.5 ofc. oh and Level 8 (and we will most likely keep leveling, but for now focus at a peak at level 8)


what I have thought is:

Race: Human
Level 1-5: Bard
Level 6-8: Dunno

Feats:
level 1: dunno
Human: dunno
Level 3: SnowFlake wardance
level 6: Song of the Heart (+1 IC)
again Thank you :)

[Vandicus]

Slippers of Battledancing will help you a bit, allowing you to use your cha mod in place of your str(assuming you have 5 ranks in perform(dance)) for attack and damage when moving ten feet before attacking.

A very useful weapon enchantment is sudden stunning, also in the DMG. For 2k, you can stun enemies when attacking a # of times per day based on your cha mod, with the enemy recieving a reflex save against 10+1/2 char level+cha mod to avoid stunning for 1d4+1 rounds.

[Drinzor]

first feat is going to be Melodic Casting (CM p.44) since its a skill less to focus on, AND I can activate abilities wile doing the IC

[Keld Denar]

Yea, its a good feat. A bard spell I particularly like is Whirling Blade. It allows you to make a single melee attack against every foe in a 60' line. Great in a large group or when a foe is too far away (or too scary to engage in melee). The best thing about it is that it is completely dependant on your melee skillz, rather than you spellcasting. No SR, no save, and you can apply all of your melee abilities like Power Attack or Snowflake Wardance to it.

[Flickerdart]

Take Silverbrow Human instead of regular Human. You trade your bonus skill point for having the Dragonblood subtype, meaning that you save a feat on Dragontouched and can go straight to Dragonfire Inspiration.
Depending on your available sources, you may want to delve into Metamagic Song Persist. Check the link in my signature. It's a fairly feat intensive build, and nowhere near as abusive as DMM Persist Cleric, but it's still quite potent as a frontliner.
Regardless, don't discount your spells. Stuff like Bladeweave or War Cry (or was it Warcry? They're both spells that do completely different things) is a swift action to pop, meaning that they don't get in the way of your fighting. There's a spell in the SpC whose name I forget that lets you activate music as a move action - combined with Bladeweave and, say, Heroism, you just dropped three buffs on yourself in one round, and are now ready to kick ass.

[Drinzor]

where does DFI Stand? in what book?

and where do I find Silverbrow Human

[Keld Denar]

DragonFire Inspiration, in the book Dragon Magic.


There's a spell in the SpC whose name I forget that lets you activate music as a move action

Harmonize. And its in Races of Stone.

[Drinzor]

Silverbrow Human is from where then? :)

[Keld Denar]

Same book. Dragon Magic.

[Daftendirekt]

Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic. It changes the pluses to hit and damage from Inspire Courage into equal amounts of d6 fire damage. I just had a thread about this flavor of bard a little while ago, if you want to look at that too. Also, the one that I'm about to start playing is in my sig.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209564

[Seerow]

Silverbrow Human is from where then? :)


Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silverbrow+human+source)

[Drinzor]

Here (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=silverbrow+human+source)

OMG LOVE THAT SITE :)

[Drinzor]

so Dragon Magic give me My Race Silverbrow Human and Allow me to get DFI

My class is bard at least the first 6 levels

feats atm is: Melodic Casting (CM p.44) (level 1)
Human: DFI
level 3: Heart of the Song (ECS)
Level 6: Snowflake Wardance

[faceroll]

Some items to consider:
Vest of Legends (DMGII)- count as a bard 5 levels higher for musical abilities
Badge of Courage (MIC)- +1 on inspire courage
MW Natural Horn (Song & Silence, 3.0 edition)- +2 instead of +1 to hit and damage with inspire courage; no bonus on saves vs. fear

Spells:
Level 1- Inspirational Boost for +1 to inspire courage

Feats:
Words of Creation (BoED)- Exalted feat, take subdual damage, DOUBLE the bonus to hit & damage from inspire courage (totally nuts)
Dragonfire Inspiration- Everyone gets +xd6 damage where x is your +x from inspire courage
Song of the Heart- Count as a bard 5 levels higher

With all these things, as an 8th level bard, your inspire courage is +12 hit/damage, with +12d6 fire damage (or, with some feat, any energy type you want).

[Keld Denar]

Perfect. Well made.

Do note that you can have both regular and DFI running at the same time. IC persists for 5 rounds after you stop (10 with Lingering Song or a Harmonizing(MIC) weapon). Thus, you could "weave" songs together if you really wanted to get beefy. Of course, that'll cut into your own personal butt kicking time, given that you'll be spending 2 standard actions at the start and 1 standard action every 5th round after the 1st to keep it up, assuming the fight lasts that long.

[Flickerdart]

Song of the Heart, not Heart of the Song. Also, spend your Human feat on DFI, since Silverbrow Human only gets you the feat's prerequisite, not the feat itself. You might also consider Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds) which doubles your Inspire Courage. Make sure to pick up a Badge of Courage (Magic Item Compendium), a Masterwork Natural Horn (Song and Silence, a 3.0 book, which your DM might disallow) and Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) for more tasty Inspire Courage bonuses.

faceroll: Song of the Heart is +1 to bardic music effect, not +5 effective levels.

[faceroll]

faceroll: Song of the Heart is +1 to bardic music effect, not +5 effective levels.

:smallredface: Oh

If you have the $, get inspirational boost on an eternal wand and save the spell known for something else. Do eternal wands work 1/day or 3/day? If it's 3, take that above piece of advice, otherwise, do not.

[Flickerdart]

Eternal Wands are 2/day. I wouldn't bother, seeing as how 1st level slots are cheap.

[Drinzor]

wow thank you guys :)


so how would the perfect stats look?

if you did not had to think about points but just be "fair" (so no 40 40 40 40 40 40) but if you should make stats, as I can see it atm, making wiz 8 is a way to get some better main stats but else I am not sure... I will be using the crystal echoblade.

[faceroll]

so how would the perfect stats look?

Why, all 18s of course. :smallsmile:

Assuming 32 pb, I would go str 14 dex 14 con 14 int 12 wis 8 cha 16. If you want more skills, switch dex & int. With more point buy, I would probably increase int, but then I just love me some skills. You've got so much damage and to hit from inspire courage, str isn't super important.


Eternal Wands are 2/day. I wouldn't bother, seeing as how 1st level slots are cheap.

Yeah, a regular wand would probably be way better, and much cheaper. I was just thinking, inspirational boost doesn't care about caster level, so don't bother wasting a spell known on it when there are so many other cool bard spells to pick up. At level 8, you've only got 4 1st level spells known.

[Flickerdart]

Starting Charisma will be at least a 16, 18 if you can swing it, since it's so easy to add it to everything. Check the X Stat to Y Bonus thread for some options. Constitution should not be under 14, because hit points are nice. You can afford to dump Intelligence and Wisdom and let your 6 skill points and good Will save pick up the slack. Strength should be at least 10 if you plan to finesse. Dexterity should be fairly high - all your leftover points will go into this.
STR 10, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 18 is 32PB, and a pretty good array for starting stats. +1 to CHA at 4th and 8th, and a +2 item, means that you have 22 Charisma. That's +6 whenever you stack it on to things. You should be able to afford Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (Dragon Magazine, 12,000gp, adds fire damage equal to your CHA to melee damage) to add that extra zing to your attacks. Slippers of Battledancing are pricey, but consider them as well.

Pro Tip: Bards know Haste, so you can get into Swiftblade with them. Whether or not it's worth it is debatable, since you lose your bardic music progression and won't get as much benefit from Innervated Speed as a full caster.

[faceroll]

Let's say we just wanted Bard for the inspire courage. How would you mix the build up with crusader? Let's say we want a realy solid "tank". Can take a lot of punishment, poses a threat to others so he won't be ignored because he cannot do damage.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Let's say we just wanted Bard for the inspire courage. How would you mix the build up with crusader? Let's say we want a realy solid "tank". Can take a lot of punishment, poses a threat to others so he won't be ignored because he cannot do damage.

Read. The. Thread. ToB is banned.

[faceroll]

Read. The. Thread. ToB is banned.

Ok...........?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ok...........?

Sorry, I just don't like it when people just post without reading anything past the first post.

[Drinzor]

well yes ToB is banned..

a way to imp IC would be awesome!

[Tyger]

<snip Shneekey's awesome advice>
Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade. Harmonizing means you can 'twist' songs very easily. So you can have both DFI and IC going.

I hate to correct Shneekey (cuz he's usually bang on) but...

The Harmonizing weapon enchantment doesn't allow you to mix songs well at all. If you start another bardic song, the enchantment specifies that it stops the effect it was maintaining. It'll still persist for 5 rounds afterwards, but you can do that without the sword.

Harmonizing is great for being able to cast spells and take other similar actions while the enchantment maintains your song, but the Melodic Casting feat (as noted throughout this thread) does that anyway. Harmonizing has extremely limited (no?) value if you have Melodic Casting.

<continue Shneekey's awesome advice>

As for ways to increase your IC, most of them have been covered. The Vest of Legends (DMGII) is great for it. The usual culprits used are the spell Inspirational Boost (from Spell Compendium), a Badge of Valour (from the Magic Item Compendium) and a masterwork instrument (from Complete Adventurer? Maybe Scoundrel? I'm AFB at the moment). Each of those gives you an additional +1 to your IC. With Song of the Heart giving you an additional +1, you have +4 to your IC. That can turn you, and your party, into a wrecking crew.

My level 13 bard (Bard 9, Mindbender 1, Sublime Chord 3) adds 7d6 fire damage to every one of my allies' attacks. When the stuff gets really ugly, I use two songs (Lingering Song) for 9 rounds of +7 to hit, +7 to damage, +7d6 fire damage to every attack our party makes. The Power Attackers love that extra +7, they go nuts with it. :)

[Drinzor]

I hate to correct Shneekey (cuz he's usually bang on) but...

The Harmonizing weapon enchantment doesn't allow you to mix songs well at all. If you start another bardic song, the enchantment specifies that it stops the effect it was maintaining. It'll still persist for 5 rounds afterwards, but you can do that without the sword.

Harmonizing is great for being able to cast spells and take other similar actions while the enchantment maintains your song, but the Melodic Casting feat (as noted throughout this thread) does that anyway. Harmonizing has extremely limited (no?) value if you have Melodic Casting.

<continue Shneekey's awesome advice>



I can see there is allot of things I need to read though, but thank you for info mate :)

[faceroll]

Sorry, I just don't like it when people just post without reading anything past the first post.

I've actually been reading this whole thread bro, and if you've read anything past the first post, you'll see not ONCE have I recommend ToB for the OP.

[Drinzor]

got a question:

How would you "uptimize" IC ??

[faceroll]

got a question:

How would you "uptimize" IC ??

I think this thread's pretty much already given you all the ways to do it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I've actually been reading this whole thread bro, and if you've read anything past the first post, you'll see not ONCE have I recommend ToB for the OP.


Let's say we just wanted Bard for the inspire courage. How would you mix the build up with crusader? Let's say we want a realy solid "tank". Can take a lot of punishment, poses a threat to others so he won't be ignored because he cannot do damage.

Did you mean to say paladin, then?

[gorfnab]

Since no one has posted these yet.
The Bard's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0)
Breaking Down Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook Edition (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0)

[Keld Denar]

I've actually been reading this whole thread bro, and if you've read anything past the first post, you'll see not ONCE have I recommend ToB for the OP.

I think what he was implying was "get your own thread". If you want help analyzing the merits of a Bardscader, start a thread to discuss it rather than jacking a thread still in use by the OP to work on his character. Otherwise you run the risk of derailing the OPs thread while he's still hammering out the final details. Courtesy bro.

[Tyger]

got a question:

How would you "uptimize" IC ??

Yeah, I edited my post above after you asked that question, rather than doing a new one. The previous posters had all laid it out, so I gathered into one spot for you. In short, see above. :)

[Drinzor]

oh did not see, thx allot mate

[Drinzor]

was looking at the bard for higher levels

Suggestion


Inspire greatness


is it possible to swap them for anything else?

[Tyger]

was looking at the bard for higher levels

Suggestion


Inspire greatness


is it possible to swap them for anything else?

Check out the substitutions in Eberron for bards. Off the top of my head, I know you can change Inspire Greatness for a feat. Not so sure about Suggestion though.

[Drinzor]

ehm here is what I got from what people said..

can people please shoot holes in it and say if I made any mistakes?


http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=320420



oh have not made spell list yet :)

[Daftendirekt]

got a question:

How would you "uptimize" IC ??

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, haven't seen it anywhere, so here it is:

The Inspirational Boost spell, (SC125). 1st level spell, swift action, makes the next Inspire Courage you start get +1 to its bonus. Thus, +2 becomes +3 and so on. The spell has a 1 round duration, meaning you have to immediately start your Inspire Courage, but once you IC, the effect lasts as long as IC does.

[Growin]

Here is the bard build I have been building:

Bard (Bardic Knack Variant) 8/Crusader 1/Bard 11

1)Two-Weapon Fighting
B)Dragonfire Inspiration
3)Snowflake Wardance
6)Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Skip this if your DM will let you use a Dagger Crystal Echoblade. Otherwise two Longsword Crystal Echoblades)
9)Song of White Raven
12)Knowledge Devotion
15) Open (ITWF, Obtain Familiar, Martial Study (Shadow something)
18) Open (GTWF, Dragon Familiar, Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)

You want Two Weapon Fighting because all of your attacks do extra fire damage and extra sonic damage. Make as many attacks as you can! Wear the "Gloves of the Balanced Hand" from the Magic Item Compendium.

By the way I know ToB was banned, I am posting MY build. You can take what you like and use it to improve what you have.

[Flickerdart]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, haven't seen it anywhere, so here it is:

5 posts in the thread mention Inspirational Boost already.

[Coidzor]

In regards for getting extra attacks, one thing one can do is dip into totemist & grab girallon arms & have armor spikes and/or a braid blade and/or the non-standard weapons from complete scoundrel, which would add on some natural weapons for capitalizing on the inspire courage/dragonfire inspiration fest.

Or if one can get unarmed strike ok'd for non-fists for non-monks, TWF between Armor Spikes & Unarmed Strike*, then braid blade(You do have ranks in tumble, right?), then natural weapons.

IIRC, the draconic template would give some claws & be a +1 LA that'll mostly play to your strengths & desires here, and so with buyoff would be a good fit.


*since it's a vehicle for the elemental damage if going dragonfire inspiration, don't even need to try to deal lethal damage, so no need for improved unarmed strike. And simple weapon proficiency covers dealing nonlethal damage with it...

[Daftendirekt]

5 posts in the thread mention Inspirational Boost already.

Ah, well, I skimmed mostly. Don't need to read most of this as I already know how to make one of these bards.

[Keld Denar]

*since it's a vehicle for the elemental damage if going dragonfire inspiration, don't even need to try to deal lethal damage, so no need for improved unarmed strike. And simple weapon proficiency covers dealing nonlethal damage with it...

Eh, you still have to pay a feat for IUAS, if you do that, because otherwise you'll provoke an AoO from everything you try to punch. Thats a lot of blows to the head.

As far as your character, Drinzor, the one thing I notice right off the top of my head is that your damage is off. You have 1d8+5. If you arne't including Crystal Echoblade's damage in there, it should be +1 Str and +1 Magic for 1d8+2. If you ARE, which it looks like, you'll have +1 Str +1 Magic +4 Bard for +6 damage. Also, isn't the +4 damage sonic? If so, you might want to note that that is seperate, since it won't get negated by DR if you face something with decent DR.

For spells, I'd go with:

1st
Grease
Inspirational Boost (SpC)
Improvisation (SpC)
Charm Person?

2nd
Glitterdust
Whirling Blade (SpC)
Bladeweave (SpC)

3rd
Haste
Slow

I think that's it.

For other gear, I don't know how much you've spent already on the Badge, Vest, Sword, and Mithril Armor, but some things to consider are:

Anlets of Translocation (MIC)
Healing Belt (MIC)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (CDivine)
Wand of Benign Transposition (SpC)
Sudden Stunning weapon upgrade (DMGII)
Handy Haversack (DMG)
Cloak of Resistance +1 with +2 Cha (MIC rules)
Lesser Weapon Crystal of some sort (MIC)
Wand Chamber(s) in weapon/shield (Dungeonscape)
Handfull of Tanglefoot Bags
Non-magical net (PHB) - you aren't proficient, but its only a touch attack.

Most of that stuff is under 4k, and much of it is under 2k. All a very good deal for a mid level character.

[Coidzor]

Eh, you still have to pay a feat for IUAS, if you do that, because otherwise you'll provoke an AoO from everything you try to punch. Thats a lot of blows to the head.
Damn!

Hmm. Welp, other than Braid Blade+Armorspikes+elbow/knee/boot blades... I'm out of ideas on ways to free up all the hands for the claws then.

[MeeposFire]

Could spiked gauntlets help for this?

[Keld Denar]

Spiked gauntlets yes, normal gauntlets, no since normal gauntlets are just an extension of your UAS. Still, Bards aren't proficient with spiked gauntlets normally, so...thats a level dip or a feat spent.

[MeeposFire]

Spiked gauntlets yes, normal gauntlets, no since normal gauntlets are just an extension of your UAS. Still, Bards aren't proficient with spiked gauntlets normally, so...thats a level dip or a feat spent.

bards are proficient with simple weapons and spiked gauntlets are simple weapons. Spiked armor is martial though.

[Keld Denar]

Huh, wierd. I coulda swore they were martial...but there they are, right on the chart.

I guess I don't actually know everything...who'da thunk? :smallcool:

[MeeposFire]

Huh, wierd. I coulda swore they were martial...but there they are, right on the chart.

I guess I don't actually know everything...who'da thunk? :smallcool:

Considering that seemingly every other "spiked" weapon is martial or worse it is easy to miss.

[Drinzor]

@Growin: if you had read the post you would know ToB is not needed and its a level 8 build


@Keld Denar: thank you mate :)

[Greenish]

Here is the bard build I have been building:

Bard (Bardic Knack Variant) 8/Crusader 1/Bard 11

1)Two-Weapon Fighting
B)Dragonfire Inspiration
3)Snowflake Wardance
6)Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Skip this if your DM will let you use a Dagger Crystal Echoblade. Otherwise two Longsword Crystal Echoblades)
9)Song of White Raven
12)Knowledge Devotion
15) Open (ITWF, Obtain Familiar, Martial Study (Shadow something)
18) Open (GTWF, Dragon Familiar, Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)

You want Two Weapon Fighting because all of your attacks do extra fire damage and extra sonic damage. Make as many attacks as you can! Wear the "Gloves of the Balanced Hand" from the Magic Item Compendium.

By the way I know ToB was banned, I am posting MY build. You can take what you like and use it to improve what you have.Did you dip Crusader just for Song of the White Raven? It prevents you from using all of your IC boosters.

[TwylyghT]

ehm here is what I got from what people said..

can people please shoot holes in it and say if I made any mistakes?


http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=320420



oh have not made spell list yet :)

Unless I have missed where they extended the list somewhere, Nymphs Kiss is not a valid feat to take in exchange for a bardic music ability (ECS page #34). Though you DM may allow it anyway.

Open question for board. Can a bard have more than one instance of Inspire Courage in effect? I am aware usually they would provide the same bonus so there would be no point, but could a bard activate it once and choose to use dragon fire inspiration, and then stop that use, and during the overlap start a regular inspire courage to get, as an example +4 to hit and +4 morale and +4d6 fire to damage?

I know stacking different songs is fairly standard, but because they are in a way, the same song, I was curious if there is a special restriction.

[Tyger]

Unless I have missed where they extended the list somewhere, Nymphs Kiss is not a valid feat to take in exchange for a bardic music ability (ECS page #34). Though you DM may allow it anyway.

Open question for board. Can a bard have more than one instance of Inspire Courage in effect? I am aware usually they would provide the same bonus so there would be no point, but could a bard activate it once and choose to use dragon fire inspiration, and then stop that use, and during the overlap start a regular inspire courage to get, as an example +4 to hit and +4 morale and +4d6 fire to damage?

I know stacking different songs is fairly standard, but because they are in a way, the same song, I was curious if there is a special restriction.

Short answer, yes, as long as the effect is different.

Long answer, yes. Your song effects under IC last for a default of 5 rounds after you stop singing (10 rounds with the Lingering Song feat). During that time you are free to sing another song. So long as it isn't "same benefit, same source" then they do stack. Your example of using Inspire Courage twice, once with the basic bonuses (+ to hit and to damage) and once with Dragonfire Inspiration (energy damage, thus a different bonus) is a perfect example of how that can work. And a devastating combination if you have a melee heavy party. Of if you just want to open a can of butt-kicking by yourself.

[TwylyghT]

Short answer, yes, as long as the effect is different.

Long answer, yes. Your song effects under IC last for a default of 5 rounds after you stop singing (10 rounds with the Lingering Song feat). During that time you are free to sing another song. So long as it isn't "same benefit, same source" then they do stack. Your example of using Inspire Courage twice, once with the basic bonuses (+ to hit and to damage) and once with Dragonfire Inspiration (energy damage, thus a different bonus) is a perfect example of how that can work. And a devastating combination if you have a melee heavy party. Of if you just want to open a can of butt-kicking by yourself.

Melee heavy party OR kicking butt myself? I prefer those both to be true. Sure I travel with a pack of meathead beatsticks, but I wont let them have all the fun!

TY for the confirmation :)

Edit: I know I am late on this thread since you have a build going but...
Bard 6/ Marshal 1/ Battle Dancer 1 has some melee bard potential. Counting the SFWD you've got CHA added to your to-hit, AC, Initiative, and all other DEX based checks "I use my natural charm to convince the ropes binding me to untie themselves!" sounds like something Elan would do lol.

[Drinzor]

oh forgot to say that, Nympth's kiss is app. by the GM but thx for saying mate

[Drinzor]

OKay small update:


Need help with 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th (and 6th) level spells.


mostly any book is open as long as they are D&D books and not something homebrew :)


anyone good something good?

[Flickerdart]

2nd level has most of the good combat buffs:
Bladeweave (SpC): One enemy you hit every round must save vs daze. Swift action, rounds/level.
Blur and Mirror Image (PHB): Defenses are important, and miss chance is better than AC. Standard actions, minutes/level.
Mirror Move (web (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a)): Copy a buddy's fighter feat. Standard action, minutes/level.
Sonic Weapon (SpC): +1d6 points of sonic damage every time you hit with the weapon. Standard action, minutes/level.

[Drinzor]

does not matter anymore :)

got to close to a Black Dragon I guess ;)

so New character it is, will find a concept and if I need help I will ask for help to that character.

[Daftendirekt]

Why on earth were you fighting a black dragon at level 8?

[Optimator]

Wait, your combat Bard died on the first adventure?

[Drinzor]

yeah we did :S really strange, it was like Medium size so not that great I guess.

And I was rather unlucky (2 crit in one round) *sadface* but I made it, where saved at -8 :D

posted the other post in a break where I was at a computer where I was on -6 but they saved my ass :)

but now I need some spell help :)

3-4 level spells mostly :)

[Optimator]

Level 4 spells are the hardest to choose. For a melee Bard, I'd say Greater Mirror Image (PHBII) is mandatory. Freedom of movement may be good if you need a way to escape from grapples (dimension door works too). Ruin Delver's FOrtune will save you over and over too. Haste is great too.

[TwylyghT]

I am a big fan of Whirling Blade(CA) its often quite handy, and its gold in a hallway encounter.

At third, I like Displacement, Haste, and Slow as for general combat use. Fear can be a game changer if your ambushed or outnumbered. Gaseous Form can be a great escape card. And I dont think any bard should ever be without Glibness. As a bonus, with a couple castings of Listening Coin(Spell Compendium) and a couple straps of leather or cloth for headbands and you have yourself tactical headsets for 1/hr level!

4th, Break Enchantment *will* come in usefull at some point, even if you only pick up a scroll or two. Even with the extra save and lower effects Shadow Conjuration has a million and one uses and offers great variety for your limited spell selection. Invisibility, Greater is quite useful. Sirene's Grace(Spell Compendium) is pretty good, more or less depending on how geared out you are. But +4 to Dex and Cha, deflection bonus to AC = to Cha mod, +8 perform, swim speed, waterbreathing, and can act and fight normally underwater. Pretty good package deal, especially the potential AC boost, with bonus points for every bit of that boost applying to touch attacks.

[MeeposFire]

I am a big fan of Whirling Blade(CA) its often quite handy, and its gold in a hallway encounter.

At third, I like Displacement, Haste, and Slow as for general combat use. Fear can be a game changer if your ambushed or outnumbered. Gaseous Form can be a great escape card. And I dont think any bard should ever be without Glibness. As a bonus, with a couple castings of Listening Coin(Spell Compendium) and a couple straps of leather or cloth for headbands and you have yourself tactical headsets for 1/hr level!

4th, Break Enchantment *will* come in usefull at some point, even if you only pick up a scroll or two. Even with the extra save and lower effects Shadow Conjuration has a million and one uses and offers great variety for your limited spell selection. Invisibility, Greater is quite useful. Sirene's Grace(Spell Compendium) is pretty good, more or less depending on how geared out you are. But +4 to Dex and Cha, deflection bonus to AC = to Cha mod, +8 perform, swim speed, waterbreathing, and can act and fight normally underwater. Pretty good package deal, especially the potential AC boost, with bonus points for every bit of that boost applying to touch attacks.

If you take greater invisibility why waste a slot on displacement?

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you take greater invisibility why waste a slot on displacement?

There is no overkill. There is only "fire" and "reload".

[TwylyghT]

If you take greater invisibility why waste a slot on displacement?

You don't have to take both, I was just listing options that I like. Displacement however, has some uses that make it superior to Invisibility in some cases. If you need/want to be seen for an effect, you still have protection. You can also extend a displacement for the same slot cost as regular greater invisibility. Displacement is not defeated by all the ways invisibility is, glitterdust or invisibility purge, for example.

[MeeposFire]

You don't have to take both, I was just listing options that I like. Displacement however, has some uses that make it superior to Invisibility in some cases. If you need/want to be seen for an effect, you still have protection. You can also extend a displacement for the same slot cost as regular greater invisibility. Displacement is not defeated by all the ways invisibility is, glitterdust or invisibility purge, for example.

Right but if you take displacement you shouldn't take gr invisibility it is too much of a cost. It isn't like you have lots of spells known.

[Flickerdart]

Displacement is probably the better investment: it's a lower spell slot, gives you essentially the same bonuses, can still be used to Hide if that's what you need to do.

[Talya]

Everybody wants to PrC out of classes. I don't get it.

Bard is one of the few classes (along with Druid) where you lose nothing by simply staying in it from 1-20. Battle-bard doesn't change this at all. In fact, the only reason to PrC out of bard ever is to improve your spellcasting with Sublime Chord (which is valid, but less bardly.)

Snowflake Wardancing and dual-weilding a pair of Crystal Echoblades gaining +10 sonic damage while getting an extra 14d6 elemental damage per hit (which your allies also get) with dragonfire inspriation? Yes please. Meanwhile, you've also got an automatic 10 ranks in all skills (while maxing out at least 7 others), can cast spells better than most gish-types....

Yeah. Just stay in bard. Bard, bard, more bard.

[Drinzor]

I liked the bard :)

but think i'll make a wizard at some point to try that xD

[Coidzor]

Everybody wants to PrC out of classes. I don't get it.

Bard is one of the few classes (along with Druid) where you lose nothing by simply staying in it from 1-20.

Well, you've just kind of pointed out why people want to generally PrC out if they have that option available to them. The benefits generally outweigh the cost, especially when it comes to customizing the character to what one wants to be capable of.

[Flickerdart]

You don't really need the last 5 levels of Bard, with a Vest of Legends. If you really want the spells, soldier on until level 16, and then dive into Abjurant Champion or somesuch so that you finish with 16 BAB without losing your singing or spell capacity.

[Talya]

Well, you've just kind of pointed out why people want to generally PrC out if they have that option available to them. The benefits generally outweigh the cost, especially when it comes to customizing the character to what one wants to be capable of.

That's the thing, a pure bard in melee will be MORE effective, if built right, than any Warchanter or sublime chord, or virtuoso or similar. In fact, the only bard builds that really have a chance of matching it for melee prowess are Bardadin or Bardsaders/Bardblades. Even there you are trading away a lot of the bard's strength for different strengths.

[Drinzor]

I liked the pure bard build at level 8 it was good, and i hit around half of the time if not 3/4 and my full bab dudes dealed **** load more damage.

[SiuiS]

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but the eberron setting allows you to trade out bard songs for bardic feats.

What his means is you can pick up Song of the Heart in place of Inspire Competence (which has always been a waste of typeface in any game I've witnessed). This can free up a feat slot.

With this, and some cheap magic & mundane items, you can snag free +5/+5 and +5d6 damage, for a couple rounds. There is also a horn, somewhere, which grants an extra +1 to inspire courage, but the effects end as soon as you stop blowing the horn; good to give your allies a huge boost in damage, bad for fighting yourself.

Finally, as has been mentioned, dragon fire inspiration adds dice of damage, which usually makes 2 weapon fighting seem like a good idea.

I'm sure most of these have been bandied about already, but I find the eberron bonus feat one tends to slip through the cracks easy.

Just remember than having +5d6 damage at level 3 tends to be a bother...

EDIT: I see that Talya has my bases covered for me. Good stuff.

[MeeposFire]

I don't know if this has been pointed out yet, but the eberron setting allows you to trade out bard songs for bardic feats.

What his means is you can pick up Song of the Heart in place of Inspire Competence (which has always been a waste of typeface in any game I've witnessed). This can free up a feat slot.

With this, and some cheap magic & mundane items, you can snag free +5/+5 and +5d6 damage, for a couple rounds. There is also a horn, somewhere, which grants an extra +1 to inspire courage, but the effects end as soon as you stop blowing the horn; good to give your allies a huge boost in damage, bad for fighting yourself.

Finally, as has been mentioned, dragon fire inspiration adds dice of damage, which usually makes 2 weapon fighting seem like a good idea.

I'm sure most of these have been bandied about already, but I find the eberron bonus feat one tends to slip through the cracks easy.

Just remember than having +5d6 damage at level 3 tends to be a bother...

EDIT: I see that Talya has my bases covered for me. Good stuff.

doesn't song of the heart require inspire competence?

[Coidzor]

doesn't song of the heart require inspire competence?

Yes, Inspire Competence and some ranks in perform. Why, I don't know. As the skill ranks requirement still leaves it as something that has to be taken after 3rd level, and it's mostly negligible before then, as a bard only can inspire for one or two fights a day, rather than being able to cover most of them from 3rd level on.

[SiuiS]

doesn't song of the heart require inspire competence?

I don't think so, as that level is when most bard-guides suggest taking song of the heart. But that is one book I don't own, so my face may be red on this one.

[MeeposFire]

I don't think so, as that level is when most bard-guides suggest taking song of the heart. But that is one book I don't own, so my face may be red on this one.

It does require it but don't feel bad I have found that there are many misinformed handbooks out there for 3e classes. Some more than others.

[Coidzor]

It does require it but don't feel bad I have found that there are many misinformed handbooks out there for 3e classes. Some more than others.

less misinformed in this case, more overly optimistic about the nature of bonus feats.

It's addressed later on in the handbook.

[Paul H]

Hi

Take it this is 3.5 only?

In pathfinder I'd have gone either Dervish Dancer 5(Bard Archetype) then Dragon Disciple, or a mix of Bard/Ninja. (PF DD has 7/10 caster levels, plus other neat stuff).

Ninjas use Cha for ki points that grant abilities like extra attack, etc. Nice weapons like Wakizashi & Katana. Plus the trapfinding/sneak attack stuff too.

Dervish dancers use Dance instead of Song for their Bardic Performances, but it only affects themselves. New performances include Haste & Imp Crit abilities. (And PF Bards get spells from 1st level).

Hope I wasn't too late with this.
If it's 3.5 only I'll shut up :smallfrown:
Thanks
Paul H

[Talya]

Pathfinder Bards are much weaker than 3.5 bards. PF really butchered bardic music.

[Paul H]

Hi

Totally disagree, unless you mean that 3.5 Bards could sing all day for just one use of Bardic Music

Unlimited uses of Cantrips/day,
Better HP, (D8's)
Spells from 1st level,
Use all Knowlege skills untrained, with bonus equal to 1/2 Bard lvl. (Min 1)
No vocal prereq for spell (3.5 requires song, IIRC),
Able to maintain bardsong and still cast spells,
Choice of one extra HP or Skill point/level,
Different Archetypes for different concepts.

All at FIRST LEVEL! :P
(Lvl 5 take 10 on all Know checks, plus take 20 on one skill check/day)

All PF base classes are more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts.

Thanks
Paul H

[Talya]

Hi
Unlimited uses of Cantrips/day,
Because I so often run out of cantrips...oh wait...



Better HP, (D8's)
Admittedly nice, but 1 hp/level doesn't turn the bard into a tank.


Spells from 1st level
PF neutered a lot of my favorite spells, as I recall.


Use all Knowlege skills untrained
Jack of All Trades


with bonus equal to 1/2 Bard lvl. (Min 1)
That's what the class feature "bardic knack" is for. It's 1/2 bard level rounded up.


No vocal prereq for spell (3.5 requires song, IIRC)
Almost all spells already have a vocal component for all classes. The only difference with bard is they cannot use the "silent spell" metamagic feat. I'm not going to suddenly take Silent Spell if that requirement is removed.


Able to maintain bardsong and still cast spells
Melodic Casting


Choice of one extra HP or Skill point/level
That's not a bard feature. That's a racial feature (favored class).



Different Archetypes for different concepts.
I don't even understand the point of this. You can do that just by building the class differently.



Here's the problem with PF bards:
Inspire Courage
Dragonfire Inspiration
Snowflake Wardance

That's three uses of bardic music per combat. Even for a 3.5 bard, that's unweildy until mid-levels, and is only really possible with lingering song or a harmonizing weapon. The PF bard gets very limited number of rounds of use. Even if you cap out charisma, by level 10 a pathfinder bard has 26-27 rounds of bardic music a day. Four encounters using those three abilities, assuming a conservative average of 5 rounds per encounter, is going to use 60 rounds of bardic music. That's assuming there was even a way for a PF bard to produce simultaneous bardic music effects, which there is not. A pathfinder bard NEVER becomes capable of actually using its main class features.

[Drinzor]

Because I so often run out of cantrips...oh wait...


Admittedly nice, but 1 hp/level doesn't turn the bard into a tank.


PF neutered a lot of my favorite spells, as I recall.


Jack of All Trades


That's what the class feature "bardic knack" is for. It's 1/2 bard level rounded up.


Almost all spells already have a vocal component for all classes. The only difference with bard is they cannot use the "silent spell" metamagic feat. I'm not going to suddenly take Silent Spell if that requirement is removed.


Melodic Casting


That's not a bard feature. That's a racial feature (favored class).


I don't even understand the point of this. You can do that just by building the class differently.



Here's the problem with PF bards:
Inspire Courage
Dragonfire Inspiration
Snowflake Wardance

That's three uses of bardic music per combat. Even for a 3.5 bard, that's unweildy until mid-levels, and is only really possible with lingering song or a harmonizing weapon. The PF bard gets very limited number of rounds of use. Even if you cap out charisma, by level 10 a pathfinder bard has 26-27 rounds of bardic music a day. Four encounters using those three abilities, assuming a conservative average of 5 rounds per encounter, is going to use 60 rounds of bardic music. That's assuming there was even a way for a PF bard to produce simultaneous bardic music effects, which there is not. A pathfinder bard NEVER becomes capable of actually using its main class features.

must agree with Talya at this one :)

[Paul H]

Hi

Jack of All Trades and Melodic Casting are feats, right, ANd from splat books to boot.

I got those free, from the Core Rulebook. So there's 2 free feats for a start. (Plus the extra feats PF gets over 3.5).

As for nerfing spells, some changes needed to be made. Plus there's plenty of new ones.

And back on track, Dragon Disciple is actually useful now, with 7/10 caster levels, bonus spells known, bonus feats, etc. Plus the usual fluff.

Quoting that bonus skill/HP etc. racial bonuses is exactly the point. Plenty more general stuff just for playing PF over 3.5.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

Thanks
Paul H

[Drinzor]

guess you are right ;)

[Flickerdart]

Trading two feats you might not want for a gimped version of the Bard's defining class feature is what we in the business call "a bad deal".

[Talya]

Trading two feats you might not want for a gimped version of the Bard's defining class feature is what we in the business call "a bad deal".

Yeah, he might get a gimped version of Jack of All Trades, as well as part of Melodic Casting (which has another benefit, too - Swap concentration checks for perform checks), but he's not getting +charisma to hit on all his attacks, in addition to +14 to hit/damage from inspire courage, and +14d6 elemental damage from dragonfire inspiration, on each and every attack he makes. (Oh, and the 3.5 bard is giving his party those last two benefits, too.) And the bard is worried about being squishy? Ensure you're spending the day with Alter Self turning you into something with a huge natural AC bonus...the PF bard isn't getting that either.

[Flickerdart]

It's not even about that. I'm just talking about the Bard's core abilities. Melodic Casting is nice but not necessary (since your music lasts quite a while, and you have the uses to restart if necessary), and Jack of All Trades will rarely come up since the best skills need to be maxed out to be effective. In return for these things, you are crippling the reason you took Bard in the first place - to play music. The Pathfinder Bard can have Wardance and DFI too, and I'm sure there are other options in their system, but none of them make up for the fact that your Bard runs a very good chance of running out of music mid-day. The 3.5 Bard? 20 uses, more with feats or items. Enough to get you through the day five times over.

[Talya]

It's not even about that. I'm just talking about the Bard's core abilities. Melodic Casting is nice but not necessary (since your music lasts quite a while, and you have the uses to restart if necessary), and Jack of All Trades will rarely come up since the best skills need to be maxed out to be effective.

Actually, half ranks is often enough. And Bardic Knack+jack of all trades gets you those half ranks. You don't need Pathfinder to do that, was my point. (it's a feature I would always take as a 3.5 bard.)


In return for these things, you are crippling the reason you took Bard in the first place - to play music. The Pathfinder Bard can have Wardance and DFI too, and I'm sure there are other options in their system, but none of them make up for the fact that your Bard runs a very good chance of running out of music mid-day. The 3.5 Bard? 20 uses, more with feats or items. Enough to get you through the day five times over.

[MeeposFire]

It's not even about that. I'm just talking about the Bard's core abilities. Melodic Casting is nice but not necessary (since your music lasts quite a while, and you have the uses to restart if necessary), and Jack of All Trades will rarely come up since the best skills need to be maxed out to be effective. In return for these things, you are crippling the reason you took Bard in the first place - to play music. The Pathfinder Bard can have Wardance and DFI too, and I'm sure there are other options in their system, but none of them make up for the fact that your Bard runs a very good chance of running out of music mid-day. The 3.5 Bard? 20 uses, more with feats or items. Enough to get you through the day five times over.

You are also not mentioning that the 3.5 bard will have multiple songs at once if it wants something the PF can't do and even if it can it would have so little endurance it would be a loss.