A question of values; is the Lich template worth it for full casters?

[Vemynal]

If a full caster character takes the Lich template, that character can now only reach 7th level spells.

How far do you think this would drop a caster in the tiers? Would it drop it in the tiers?

I'm talking all full casters; wizard, cleric, archivist. Anything that would get 9th level spell progression normally.

Are their any specific PrCs that make the template more worth taking?

Don't need for a game or anything, just want to hear what the play ground thinks and how they would rate the Lich template. Especially compared to say, the Saint template

[sonofzeal]

It is not worth it, and it probably drops a Tier 1 to a Tier 2. There are far, far better ways to be an undead spellcaster.

The only two good reasons to become a Lich are because you're a Dread Necro and gain it for free without the LA, or because you're a Walker in the Waste.... and gain it for free without the LA.

[Saintheart]

Lich template gives you +2 to INT, WIS, CHA. Only one of which is likely to be your casting stat, and which you can get an equivalent bonus for 4 - 16,000 gold.
It also gives you DR 10/magic and bludgeoning. So all the enemy's monsters have to do is pick up +1 clubs and your DR is gone. Or use the flats of their blades.
It also gives you immunity to cold and electricity damage. But not to fire, force, or sonic damage.
It gives you undead immunities. Sadly these immunities do not include immunity to being turned, nor immunity to positive energy damage, which means anyone with a Heal spell or a Healing Belt just has to get touch attacks in to do you damage. Additionally, you die at 0 hp, not -10.
It gives you +5 to Natural Armor. Which, again, you could gain via spell or item in an amulet. The natural armor also doesn't help with your touch AC, which most clerics are going to be aiming at with positive energy damage.
It also gives you a paralysis attack that keys off CHA, but unless you want to be Elvis Presley (literally) it's not a fantastic strike and you can't wield weapons in that hand.

So, no. Evolved Undead mitigates it very slightly with Fast Healing 3 and a some handy spell-like abilities, but you'd need multiple applications of the template for it to make any sense at all.

[faceroll]

No.

oinsgdoiu

[Occasional Sage]

If your value judgement is purely mechanical, no. Go another route. If it's not, then we need more information.

But from the things you ask in your OP, I'm guessing you're talking only about crunch.

From a strictly fluff perspective, I'd say that very little beats a lich for absolute cool.

[Soranar]

The saint template is far more powerful than a lich's and it cost less...

It's ok for free (no LA increase way to gain it) on a d4 hitpoint arcane caster but the necropolitan template is considerably better (considering the cost) and easier to obtain so it's really not necessary.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Basically, what sonofzeal said. The best way to be a Lich is to get it without the LA. Even with LA buy-off in place, you've still got to deal with a character that is eating a good +3 LA that will not be removed pre-epic. And if we're getting into epic levels, well, that's a whole nother can of worms.:smallyuk:

[DeAnno]

In spite of Lich being obviously really bad, its effect on the Wizard's tiering is a rather interesting question. The way the Tiers are set up, I'm not really sure that its possible to move from Tier 1 to Tier 2 simply by losing caster levels, since both operate at similar levels of power (Tier 1 simply has much more versatility.) I think that either a Wizard 4 caster levels behind is still good enough to be Tier 1, or is demoted to Tier 3 due to lack of punch.

A Lich Wizard 16 still gets a good number of 8th level spells, and having free access to 8th level spells on the Sor/Wiz list is more than anything on Tier 3 really gets; it's still casting better than a Bard, a Dread Necro, or a Beguiler. I'd say it's still Tier 1, albeit low Tier 1.

[peacenlove]

Pathfinder Lich (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lich) loses only 2 caster levels, needs only 120.000 gp for phylactery, uses charisma for HP and fortitude saves (very good for spontaneous casters) and gains additional class skills.
Yes its worth it in PF for the rejuvenation alone (as long as you make some precautions and craft slotless items, so you don't lose them when you are destroyed. Ironically Vow of poverty is very good if you get destroyed a lot).

[AlexTheGreat]

It can be worth it, but for a NPC. PCs have better options.

[faceroll]

Pathfinder Lich (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lich) loses only 2 caster levels, needs only 120.000 gp for phylactery, uses charisma for HP and fortitude saves (very good for spontaneous casters) and gains additional class skills.
Yes its worth it in PF for the rejuvenation alone (as long as you make some precautions and craft slotless items, so you don't lose them when you are destroyed. Ironically Vow of poverty is very good if you get destroyed a lot).

I only see CR+2 in that link. Did PF get rid of LA or something?


It can be worth it, but for a NPC. PCs have better options.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, vampire template on wizards or clerics is >> lich template. They have the same CR cost, but vampire is much better, imo. And being a wizard or cleric, you can fairly easily protect yourself from the vampire's weaknesses.

[AlexTheGreat]

I only see CR+2 in that link. Did PF get rid of LA or something?
Yes. They use CR as level equivalent. +2 CR is +2 LA and a CR 7 monster is like a level 7 PC.

[DMVerdandi]

No way.
Necropolitan.
Only takes a small amount of XP, and grants you all undead benefits.
That fat D12 and not needing CON is enough for a caster. Not needing to mess with your ECL is even better.

Archivist with academic priest is the best class for necropolitans.
Wizard flexibility, divine spells.
Take a year off of adventuring and copy every divine spell into prayer books with secret page,scholar's touch, and arcane sight. Really would take a month, not a year. And could even be done at level one.

Optimizing undead spells and feats will make it so that you won't die easily.

[Zerter]

The short answer is: No.
The long answer is: No.

[sonofzeal]

The short answer is: No.
The long answer is: Noooooooooooo.
Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

[Vemynal]

^-Really? I was told that vampires and undead had LA -- in pathfinder. That they weren't meant for players to use.


Ok well since we had *very* strong opinions on fluff vs mechanical. Fluff there's nothing cooler and mechanical its a bad idea.


How about this Walker in the Waste PrC? If a Full Casting class takes this PrC would they still stay "tier 1" or will it drop them below?

Could a wizard who has taken the feats Heat Endurance and Arcane Disciple: Sand (or Thirst) with a Wis of 13 enter into this class?


also, just to bring up. Its been specifically stated by wotc that the Dread Necromancer "Lich" ability is not the same as the Lich template. You can Google it to find out more.

And the Necropolitan only replaces your hit dice with d12's for what hit dice you already have. If you take the template at level 3 you'll have 2d12 hit dice (due to losing a level) and all other hit you'd gain would be whatever class you take gives you. Making you a *super* squishy undead

[Cog]

Yes. They use CR as level equivalent. +2 CR is +2 LA and a CR 7 monster is like a level 7 PC.
Initially, yes. With increasing level, there's a sliding scale that decreases the adjustment even more, though it never reaches zero.

I haven't really looked through the numbers, but my gut reaction is that the PF system is nearly as bad as 3.5's, just in the opposite direction.

[faceroll]

^-Really? I was told that vampires and undead had LA -- in pathfinder. That they weren't meant for players to use.


Ok well since we had *very* strong opinions on fluff vs mechanical. Fluff there's nothing cooler and mechanical its a bad idea.


How about this Walker in the Waste PrC? If a Full Casting class takes this PrC would they still stay "tier 1" or will it drop them below?

Could a wizard who has taken the feats Heat Endurance and Arcane Disciple: Sand (or Thirst) with a Wis of 13 enter into this class?


also, just to bring up. Its been specifically stated by wotc that the Dread Necromancer "Lich" ability is not the same as the Lich template. You can Google it to find out more.

And the Necropolitan only replaces your hit dice with d12's for what hit dice you already have. If you take the template at level 3 you'll have 2d12 hit dice (due to losing a level) and all other hit you'd gain would be whatever class you take gives you. Making you a *super* squishy undead

Walker in the Waste is one of the few classes that loses caster levels and is worth it IF you assume that it gets the Dry Lich template without the +5 LA. It doesn't actually say in the rules that you get to ignore the LA.

You can enter Walker relatively early, which means you get the capstone at level 13 instead of 15, which is quite neat.

[darksolitaire]

Could a wizard who has taken the feats Heat Endurance and Arcane Disciple: Sand (or Thirst) with a Wis of 13 enter into this class?


Walker in the Waste requires the ability to cast spells as divine spells, so no. But there are some other shenanigans that would allow this, such as southern magician feat from some faerun book.

WitW and DN don't simply turn player into a lich in one swoop, but gradually. One might argue that the template is built in to said classes, much like half-dragon is built in Dragon Disciple.

[Jeraa]

^-Really? I was told that vampires and undead had LA -- in pathfinder. That they weren't meant for players to use.
In Pathfinder, no monster is meant for PC use. However, the Bestiary has a section dealing with how it could possibly be done if the DM wants to allow it - by using the monsters CR as a guideline to its level. So a CR 7 monster would be treated as a 7th level PC.


I haven't really looked through the numbers, but my gut reaction is that the PF system is nearly as bad as 3.5's, just in the opposite direction.
It is almost as bad as LA. LA was a set number (usually higher than it really should of been), but Pathfinder only uses the CR as a guideline - The DM has to adjust to make it fit right.

So the real difference is that 3.5 level adjustments were rules, but the Pathfinder system of doing it are merely guidelines.

[Soranar]

If you want to use Walker in the Waste for an arcane caster, instead of fishing through a hundred books to figure out a way to do so I recommend just asking your DM nicely (booze/pizza or other forms of bribes are optional).

Since he/or she chooses in the end anyway it saves a lot of time.

[Retech]

Level adjustment in Pathfinder is really an "ask your GM" thing. You could very easily abuse it using negative CR templates to cancel out positive CR templates that are much better.

For example, young (-1 CR) and advanced (+1 CR).

Gives you..

+8 Dex, +4 to all mentals, reduces your size by one step (great for casters!), and reduces natural armor (like you even have any)