Arcane Thesis Problem

[Mordrigar]

Hello Playgrounders.

I've a problem with Arcane Thesis. Does it lower the spell's slot level for each metamagic added or just one?

PHB II errata says it drops levels for each metamagic

"if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3)."

But FAQ says -Updated in 06/30/08-

Arcane Thesis reduces the total spell level of a metamagic affected spell by one, regardless of the number of metamagic feats applied. An empowered (+2 levels), still (+1 level), silent (+1 level) fireball would be 6th level

I know it's clear but I wonder if there's a new update for this?

Or What do sages say about this feat?

[Diarmuid]

From what I remember Errata trumps FAQ.

[Quietus]

Well, let's put it this way. Does it make sense for there to be a feat that reduces metamagic's level adjustment by 1 for a specific spell, when there's at least two feats out there that can reduce a metamagic's level adjustment, period, no matter what spell it's applied to? Errata trumps FAQ, and in this case it just doesn't make sense to follow the FAQ anyway. It'd make Thesis worthless in the face of other, better feats.

[tyckspoon]

FAQ is wrong, it happens.

[Fouredged Sword]

Is there any issue that the FAQ attempted to clarify that is actualy taken as the RAW truth of the issue? I don't know of any. FAQ is somewhat of a joke as I understand it.

[NecroRick]

Arcane Thesis is balanced at a maximum of one use of the -1. It also gives +2 caster level to that particular spell, and the other metamagic reducers are in the same power range.

At -1 per metamagic it is up there in brokenness with nightstick-stacking divine metamagic.

---

The reasoning (in the FAQ as I understand it) behind neither Arcane Thesis nor Divine Meta-Magic working the way the rules benders dearly want them to is that bonuses from the same source do not stack with each other.

Anyway, if the DM allows DMM-nightstick cheese-fu then there's no reason not to allow Arcane Thesis cheese-fu. One of the more interesting ways to rein in the abuse (somewhat) would be to ban flaws (they're an optional rule anyway as I understand it - just choose not to exercise that option). If you're stacking five different meta-magic feats on top of your Arcane Thesis fireball, that's six feats right there...

Similarly DMM + Persist is at least three feats plus gold. That's going to be a lot more expensive if you don't get two 'freebie' feats at level 1.

The net effect of banning flaws is to push back the abuses by six levels...

[Yuki Akuma]

Is there any issue that the FAQ attempted to clarify that is actualy taken as the RAW truth of the issue? I don't know of any. FAQ is somewhat of a joke as I understand it.

No, there isn't.

Generally when the FAQ says something I tend to go with the exact opposite reading.

[faceroll]

When determining how the RAW function, this

Errata trumps FAQ

is important, and true.

This:

It'd make Thesis worthless in the face of other, better feats.

however, is entirely irrelevant. If you're coming up with houserules, it is certainly worthwhile to consider, though.

[Tyndmyr]

Arcane Thesis is balanced at a maximum of one use of the -1. It also gives +2 caster level to that particular spell, and the other metamagic reducers are in the same power range.

No, it's not. Particular spell feats are almost never worth taking. Everyone would mostly ignore arcane thesis outside of obscure TO builds, and just take the better metamagic reduction if they cared about reducers.



The reasoning (in the FAQ as I understand it) behind neither Arcane Thesis nor Divine Meta-Magic working the way the rules benders dearly want them to is that bonuses from the same source do not stack with each other.

This is inherently flawed. Do the level changes from multiple metamagics stack? Of course. If not, every mage ever would be abusing metamagics all the time, as you would only pay for the most expensive one.

And AT applies directly to that metamagic level change. It applies separately for each time. It is not labeled as any sort of a bonus.

[Douglas]

I think the Arcane Thesis questions in the FAQ were added before the errata came out and then didn't get updated to match the new ruling. In any case, errata is official rules text while FAQ is not, so the errata is correct.