Running Epic Level campaign 3.0 need advice/suggestions on Story/Plot

[VinceColo]

:smallyuk:

So tomorrow night (8/12/2011) I'm running an epic campaign.
3 players
level 21 human female knight (Chastity)
level 21 Grey Elven Wizard (Jace) (yes the stupid MTG card guy....sigh)
and a level 19 Drow bard (Saeray)
For Npc's Chastity has her 19th level cleric with them for heals (taken with leadership)
And for a Rogue we have an NPC death Slaad 9 Rogue/ 1 Shadowdancer (for Hide in plain sight) from *Bastion of unbroken Souls* Named "Nurn" For the much needed "Thief" position..

My overall idea is this, a rough sketch if you will.

An extremely powerful Demilich "Vul" the Darkbringer level 30 wizard/demilich (gave him 6 extra epic level feats for potency) template from ELH, has Found himself a Time dragon egg located in the desert of Aunaroch, buried below the crypts of Ashenfall.

Vul, using his ever increasing resources from the Cult of the Dragon, locates the ancient artifact "Grozul" And begins to use it to create a darksun-like effect that drains all life (except those he chooses, such as his followers) and plant life in a widening area of effect, over the land of Faerun, beginning to widen the reaches of the desert, and engulf the land around it.

This effect powers the ancient artifact Grozul to age dragons, and one in particular, the time dragon egg. Vul's plan is to sow dissension into the royalty with his highly placed cultists, and watch as war keeps the major powers at bay, leaving only our epic pc's to discover the source of TRUE death incarnate.

Vul situates himself in the Desert of Aunaroch, specifically taking over the Shadow Citadel, and growing the egg over the lake.
Protecting the City of Shade, and the Shadow Sea, is the mighty flesh colossus's roaming the area, and the constant threat of dragons that fly above at all times...

As kingdoms war and constant fear that everyone's neighbor might be a cult member causes a whole new problem for the pc's. Level 1 princes and nobles that the pc's cant kill (good aligned campaign) but have to work out the bickering or all of faerun might just fall.

While all this is going on the Vul, and the cultists of the dragon, conspire to summon Tiamat herself with the newly "Old" aged Time dragon. who with his might calls all of dragonkind together, to destroy all who oppose them.

Still workin on the details, need highly placed npc's, cult members and sub-bosses. Plan on using ALOT of undead and dragons. Also thinking i should involve the gods or demonlord/princes/devils in some sort of way..

Ideas?

[Glimbur]

What sort of protections does Vul have against divination? Similar question for the time dragon. Because a 21st level wizard is capable of discovering (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) and finding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) the root cause of a problem.

It sounds like you will need stats for a number of different things. There should be a number of builds kicking around the internet for level 16-20 characters... try the Iron Chef contests for some variety of capabilities. Dragons are classic but they require some work to make them really shine. There's probably a handbook for building them: feats, alternate abilities, etc, but I don't have a link for that. Undead top out in CR in core with the Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) which is rude but basically a melee brute.

Any particular reason you are using 3.0 and not 3.5?

How does Epic Magic work in your game?

[VinceColo]

Vul has a Constant Mind Blank effect surrounding him at all times.
actually using 3.0 only for the epic level handbook.
We also use 3.5 books.

Epic magic ? gotta use feats imho. having 10-11th level slots opens up metamagic feat quite a bit, but the player is the only newb in the group, making him a looney-toons like annoyance, a PASSABLE wizard at best :(
(the other players help him with memorizing, what spells to cast, what to do round to round, etc...)
Gave players 1 extra epic feat for 21rst to help em build themselves a bit.
Each of the pc's has low level epic gear to start.

I also had everyone give me a background sheet, detailing their previous anecdotes to me so i could incorporate them into the game.

As for the time dragon, they are not immune to divination, but are so overwhelmingly powerful, the pc's have virtually NO CHANCE of survival with even a young one. (thinking maybe later giving them a fatal flaw of some sort...)

I have found that outsiders do well, golems (immune to magic, crits)
Undead are especially a pain at epic levels, and death ward MUST be up at all times or DEAD party.

Looking now at building the cult of dragons from the top down, with at least a few names to get me by.

[VinceColo]

I'm also having problems making the bard seem very useful to the party, even with an epic weapon.

Also want to add some 3rd dimension. Perhaps Githyanki ?, Aliens? some sort of powerful, otherworldly type.

Need to have reasons why the god's themselves aren't interfering.

[Gavinfoxx]

Are you allowing SRD / ELH style "Epic Spellcasting", like as per the feat, into the game?

Because that feat is broken in a deep, conceptual level, and should burn in a fire.

[VinceColo]

Not sure what SRD is, but yes, allowing the ELH casting in. The player is a newb though like i said, so shouldnt be TOO much trouble. Im mainly asking help for story plot, and suggestions on story or ideas to help me keep it rollin though.

[Diarmuid]

Are you going to be using Epic spells with your epic bad guys? If the party really isnt going to be able to make use of it because the player is new, then it's not really fair to do so with the lich.

[VinceColo]

Absolutely I am !
Diarmuid did you read my first post? the other two players are D&D VETS...(one of which had a level 35 toon (12wiz/12clr/11 mystic theurge who absolutely ROCKED me out in a past epic campaign))
they help him with everything from memorizing to raising his character, to picking which spells he gets when he levels up....so even though HE'S a newb, they are not, and help make him a good spellcaster.

I would like to reiterate, however, and say I'm mainly looking for story help and ideas/suggestions to help my campaign.

[Diarmuid]

I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing...when I say "Epic Spellcasting" I'm talking about researching new spells using seeds and whatnot.

With the only Tier 1 caster being 21 and then NPV being 30, that could make a huge discrepency in power.

[VinceColo]

Ah yes, Vul the Dark Bringer is intended for END LEVEL of the campaign, the pc's will be 30 by the time they face him and the time dragon for real.
Their power will have grown substantially...

[VinceColo]

Just an update about my epic campaign. After our Friday's Game (8/12/2011)
the bard decided he hated his guy, so i allowed him to remake his character. Now he is a 10 bard/sublime chord 11.

Kinda seems to me like he should have just rolled another wizard or sorcerer, but eh, w/e right ?
Don't really know much about the sublime chord except that it basically turns a bard into a wizard/sorcerer...

[Darthteej]

Just an update about my epic campaign. After our Friday's Game (8/12/2011)
the bard decided he hated his guy, so i allowed him to remake his character. Now he is a 10 bard/sublime chord 11.

Kinda seems to me like he should have just rolled another wizard or sorcerer, but eh, w/e right ?
Don't really know much about the sublime chord except that it basically turns a bard into a wizard/sorcerer...

Sublime Chord's easy, at epic levles it casts as a 17th level sorcerer with practiced spellcasting, and bard spells.

Oh, and by the way, it may help to look up some variant epic spellcasting rules developed right here.

[SowZ]

It's called the Balor gambit. In a 300 by 300 foot cave with no teleportation out or outside help brought in, have Balors appear and fight the party. First, one Balor. Next wave, two Balors. Then three. Then four. Keep going until the paty is dead. See what they can get up to. (Note: Don't actually do this as a campaign thing.)

I would think about using a lot of dragons. Wouldn't want to overdue it. They only mate so often and any dragon that could challenge the party is highly intelligent, highly warded, pretty rare, and a powerful global force.

[Darthteej]

I would think about using a lot of dragons. Wouldn't want to overdue it. They only mate so often and any dragon that could challenge the party is highly intelligent, highly warded, pretty rare, and a powerful global force.

I've always wanted to see how a fight against one of the epic dragons would turn out, in particular a force dragon. Were those things even meant to be fought?

[Gavinfoxx]

You really really really really really really don't want to use 'Epic Spellcasting' as it is presented in the Epic Level Handbook. REALLY. That's the same as is in the SRD. REALLY. You REALLY want to use one of the fixes for it...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not sure what SRD is, but yes, allowing the ELH casting in. The player is a newb though like i said, so shouldnt be TOO much trouble. Im mainly asking help for story plot, and suggestions on story or ideas to help me keep it rollin though.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) contains all the 'GNU-esque' material for D&D 3.0/.5/d20.

The Bard could have really wrecked your campaign, although epic spellcasting (since he has 9th level spells) will completely shatter your game. If he had gone DFI and minionmancy, he could have eaten anything short of an actual epic full-caster.

And yes, Epic Spellcasting wrecks your game. Your mind blank? Can be busted with epic magic. Dimensional Lock/Forbiddance/anything used to prevent teleportation? Can be broken with epic magic.

Unless you wish this to be anything other than a five round 'port n pwn' exercise, ban epic magic. It really IS that broken.

Really, at epic levels, the game kind of breaks down... kind of like how the laws of physics start to break down the closer you get to light speed. The closer to Event Horizon you get, the weirder things get.

In pre-epic games, Full-Casters are inherently superior in every way to non-casters. In epic games, this is magnified a hundred fold. With non-epic spells like Genesis, and the ability to manipulate (or at least pre-set) the Time trait in your new pocket dimension, you can do years of research in six seconds, then Plane Shift directly to your opponent, using an epic spell you researched for that purpose, then insta-gib your opponent in the surprise round, with no saving throw allowed, no SR, and the ability to bypass any and all defenses.

And that's just a minor parlor trick for an epic-level caster.

[Cieyrin]

You should probably have a look at Dragons of Faerun for the who's who of the scaled powers. Klauth (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Klauth) would certainly be an epic threat to consider, especially with the Cult of the Dragon involved and his distaste for them.

[VinceColo]

Sorry I havent been on in a week or so, been busy with fun fun RL stuff :)

Hey ShneekeyTheLost What is DFI ? What is Minionmancy ?

Regarding other things that were said: The time/cost/ factor is a HUGE thing for creating epic spells. The Wizard won't be creating his own spells so that is good. I have given him 1 epic spell scroll after the last session "Safe Time" I killed the wizard twice last game, so this should help him a little anyway hehe :)

Also I have messed around with the idea that i might not let the pc casters create their own EPIC spells... what do ya think? maybe give out epic seeds and epic spells as they find them during the campaign

[rgd20]

You really really really really really really don't want to use 'Epic Spellcasting' as it is presented in the Epic Level Handbook. REALLY. That's the same as is in the SRD. REALLY. You REALLY want to use one of the fixes for it...

Where would I find these fixed versions?

[Cieyrin]

Sorry I havent been on in a week or so, been busy with fun fun RL stuff :)

Hey ShneekeyTheLost What is DFI ? What is Minionmancy ?

Dragon Fire Inspiration is from Dragon Magic, which is an alternative to Inspire Courage that simply grants a number of d6s of energy damage to your allies' attacks. Number of dice is determined by your bonus to Inspire Courage, which can be pumped in a number of ways.

Minionmancy is a term for having lots of creatures at your beck and call to do many a silly thing, many of which get out of hand quickly. There are many paths to it (Leadership, Necromancy, Summons, etc.) and should be regulated somewhat, as a Minionmancer tends to take a lot of time in combat with doing all his creatures actions.


Regarding other things that were said: The time/cost/ factor is a HUGE thing for creating epic spells. The Wizard won't be creating his own spells so that is good. I have given him 1 epic spell scroll after the last session "Safe Time" I killed the wizard twice last game, so this should help him a little anyway hehe :)

Also I have messed around with the idea that i might not let the pc casters create their own EPIC spells... what do ya think? maybe give out epic seeds and epic spells as they find them during the campaign

That will probably help with regulation, just be careful of how you distribute, as the strength of epic spells is their flexibility. Making it a lost magic that has to be found rather than researched and created gives it a bit of balance, if slightly.

[VinceColo]

As far as minonmancy, as a house rule NPC's gained from leadership are taken along only if the party is missing key classes (like the cleric my knight has). The rest of their minions are taking care of their PC's lands, diplomatic matters, protecting, and any mundane business needed in the campaign (plus i told em their minions would be fodder to many nasty creatures that lie ahead, most of which are epic and do hundreds of damage in a single strike or spell sometimes, so it might be best to leave them behind)

As far as summons, I usually only let them have one summon active at a time

The bard/chorus seems to be just another caster in the group now. Im hoping he wont take too much thunder away from our epic wizard, making him feel useless.

[Gavinfoxx]

Advice on story and plot?

Okay, here's something appropriate for you for epic level characters:

Large sections of the entire Prime Material Plane are destroying themselves, and unless you do something soon, the plane will inevitably kill 99%+ of the inhabitants within the near future. Do something about that.

[Groverfield]

I don't know if it's been said before or not, but epic level is not the best level to start training a "newb" how to play a wizard, even with the player's help.

[Crow]

You really really really really really really don't want to use 'Epic Spellcasting' as it is presented in the Epic Level Handbook. REALLY. That's the same as is in the SRD. REALLY. You REALLY want to use one of the fixes for it...

At the levels they're playing at, it's not that broken. It's only broken if the DM allows obvious cheese. Sensible choices and some restraint on the part of the group can make the epic spellcasting rules work fine.

That isn't to say that they aren't broken, but they're not so broken (at levels 21-30) as people make them out to be, unless you are trying to break them.

[The Tygre]

Lo, young epic-ling. Harken to what was passed to me from the Lord of Epics (http://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/article-the-ten-commandments-of-epic/). It was written for Fourth Edition, but the general heart is edition-less, so you should be good.