A Fighter, change/balance question.

[Midnight_v]

I've been thinking seriously about the fighter class, and has anyone ever made/played a fighter variant that continues gaining Bonus Feats as it prestiges out?

I'm thinking of doing that. I've read that the legacy champion prc get something that says: Plus 1 exiting class feature level.

So basically adding a line to what we consider fighter prc's to say:
+1 Existing Fighter class level.
Meaning you continue to gain bonus feats at the even levels and you continue to count as a fighter for the purpose of weapon focus.
I got this idea, and had it for a while because Barbarian classes continue Raging, Pally classes continue smiting/Pokemounting. Monks classes continue ... well you know.
So here's the question.

Do you think this effect would matter at all?
How big a change would it be?

[HappyBlanket]

Sounds like a nice improvement to the Fighter class... However, it still doesn't put it at Tier 3, nor does it solve the inherent problem of being a Fighter; a melee character whose capabilities are entirely reliant on feats. So unless the Prestige Class gives it some fantastic abilities, the only difference between Fighter 20 and Fighter X / Theoretical Prestige X is whatever bonuses the Prestige Class gives. And if the class features of that Prestige class do create a competent character, it simply means that the Prestige Class is a Tier +2, not that the Fighter is Tier 3.

So in a nut shell: prestige classes aren't enough to fix the Fighter. Additionally, as anyone who has ever been possessed by the insanity to play Fighter 20 can tell you, all the Fighter Bonus Feats in the world won't save the Fighter.

[marcielle]

Indeed. If you wanna play a fighter that isn't limited to either make full attack or find way to make full attack, I suggest this http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29. Shouldn't be a problem since you're talking about homebrew anyway. It's no caster, but because of skill bump and the beautiful Foil Action, you have a significant amount of options, even when 'hit it until it stops moving' is no longer appropriate. Also, access to any weapon you like should've been available to fighters from the start. You get Diplomacy and Jump. This opens up the wonderful world of Jumplomancy.:smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

It'd make dipping fighter more attractive, sure, but this doesn't really do anything for Fighters so much as martial types in general. Which is always a good thing, since being able to do anything interesting requires an arm and a leg in feats anyway.

[Midnight_v]

Indeed. If you wanna play a fighter that isn't limited to either make full attack or find way to make full attack, I suggest this http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29. Shouldn't be a problem since you're talking about homebrew anyway. It's no caster, but because of skill bump and the beautiful Foil Action, you have a significant amount of options, even when 'hit it until it stops moving' is no longer appropriate. Also, access to any weapon you like should've been available to fighters from the start. You get Diplomacy and Jump. This opens up the wonderful world of Jumplomancy.:smallbiggrin:
Oh... the irony... I wish there was a facepalm smiley. I'm a big fan of the tomes, while I find that they fix the universe in a way that seems appealing to me, sometimes it hard to get people out there.
So I decided to "see" if there were thing that made a difference.
It is unbalanced though that fighters don't get prc's that don't advance thier main class feature, however... it occurs to me that thier main class feature as misunderstood by the devs was "the good bab"... amazingly bad.

It'd make dipping fighter more attractive, sure, but this doesn't really do anything for Fighters so much as martial types in general. Which is always a good thing, since being able to do anything interesting requires an arm and a leg in feats anyway
Sigh yeah, I guess it would, I see honestly that even as a starting point, its too little too late.

[Doonesman]

Additionally, as anyone who has ever been possessed by the insanity to play Fighter 20 can tell you, all the Fighter Bonus Feats in the world won't save the Fighter.

Your statement intrigues me. I've taken at least one character to Fighter 20 (to prove that it was possible). By that point he had over 300 hp and did more than 200 average damage per round (I'll find exact numbers if you're interested). Indeed, to this day he's the reason I'm not allowed to complain about other players' broken characters.

So, my question is... what's up with that?

[Pechvarry]

I dunno, I think you have a good start. Fixing a class doesn't immediately mean "make it tier 3". I mean, I like the idea of playing a Hexblade with the author fixes, for example, which basically boil down to cursing more often. Doesn't move it up a tier, but improves playability greatly.

I think if you bump their skills up to 4+int to enhance their out of combat performance and limit their +fighter level to match their actual fighter level (A fighter 4 can only gain +4 fighter advancement out of PrCs. Further levels have no benefit until actual fighter level increases), then you could have some fun with it.

[MeeposFire]

Your statement intrigues me. I've taken at least one character to Fighter 20 (to prove that it was possible). By that point he had over 300 hp and did more than 200 average damage per round (I'll find exact numbers if you're interested). Indeed, to this day he's the reason I'm not allowed to complain about other players' broken characters.

So, my question is... what's up with that?

Damage isn't a big deal. All the martial classes can do damage and a lot of it (assuming you get to full attack which is part of the problem). If you put that much effort into a caster class you would have bent the campaign world in half (by effort I mean optimization quality). HEck the people that do the tiers can make fighters that can do more damage on one hit and they would still tell you they are nothing compared to other classes including ToB classes that will be dealing less damage but have more useful tricks that isn't just "I hit it with my sword for damage" including skill use (something fighters need in more abundance).

Also I don't like "fixes" that promote cherry picking more. Fighter is already a good dip it does not need to be better in that regard. What the fighter needs is making having levels iun it more important so that you are tempted to stay. It can be done but it takes more thought and effort. If you just want to make it easier to steal the fighter's schtick so that other classes will benefit (at the fighters expense) then this "fix" will be fine.

[HappyBlanket]

Your statement intrigues me. I've taken at least one character to Fighter 20 (to prove that it was possible). By that point he had over 300 hp and did more than 200 average damage per round (I'll find exact numbers if you're interested). Indeed, to this day he's the reason I'm not allowed to complain about other players' broken characters.

So, my question is... what's up with that?

Yes. Exact numbers. Were you a charger, by any chance? With Mounted Combat feats?

As for defending my statement without numbers (meaning that damage isn't the problem, and any cheesy bonuses to damage you can show me won't help you), then. First of all, as a Fighter you can only fight. As mentioned earlier, your only options in battle are A) Full Attack or B) find a way to Full Attack. Granted, if you can pull that one trick off, you're fine as far as damage goes. Otherwise? You have nothing. You don't have the skill points to be the party face, nor do you have the skill points to be a skill monkey. Stealth is a stranger to you. Battlefield Control is the dark unknown. Anything that can fly outside your range is the bane of your existence. AoE is an unattainable dream.

I'd spend the time to continue with an increasingly biting salvo of blatant belittlement towards the Fighter, but I'll simplify the point:

As a Fighter, you can only inflict damage. Worse, most Fighter builds require very specific conditions during which you may take advantage of your one and only trick.

edit: On the above: Fighters definitely make for a good 2 level dip, and there are few melee characters that wouldn't benefit from such.

[Greenish]

Your statement intrigues me. I've taken at least one character to Fighter 20 (to prove that it was possible). By that point he had over 300 hp and did more than 200 average damage per round (I'll find exact numbers if you're interested). Indeed, to this day he's the reason I'm not allowed to complain about other players' broken characters.How is that broken?

Fighty McFighter is a 20th level core-only fighter. He started with 16 strength, now boosted by +5 (manual) +5 (levels) +6 (belt of giant's strength) to 32. He has picked the whole Weapon Focus line with a falchion, as well as Imp. Critical and Power Attack. He sports a neat +5 Speed falchion.

212.29 average damage per round vs. AC 31.


And who cares? That's just damage, and he needs to get to the enemy and stand next to it a whole round.

[Coidzor]

Sigh yeah, I guess it would, I see honestly that even as a starting point, its too little too late.

Because it's not actual class features that give a reason to stay in the Fighter class, yes.

So why do you want people to stay in Fighter?

[faceroll]

Giving fighters the ability to make full attacks as standard actions goes a long way in "fixing" them. Most ToB stuff is "overcome DR, move by jumping/teleporting/wire fu, overcome bad juju with save replacement/reroll/block effect, and some minor battlefield control". However, if you played a fighter that could full attack when he moved, he'd be doing enough damage that really only his bad saves would matter. Jump is a very easy skill to get to ludicrous levels, so for most practical purposes, the fighter can strike enemies that are airborn or what have you.

Damage is severely underrated.


Indeed. If you wanna play a fighter that isn't limited to either make full attack or find way to make full attack, I suggest this http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29. Shouldn't be a problem since you're talking about homebrew anyway. It's no caster, but because of skill bump and the beautiful Foil Action, you have a significant amount of options, even when 'hit it until it stops moving' is no longer appropriate. Also, access to any weapon you like should've been available to fighters from the start. You get Diplomacy and Jump. This opens up the wonderful world of Jumplomancy.:smallbiggrin:

Frank & K's fighter is like the only piece of their Tome material that I like. Well, their abortive work on special materials is also pretty cool.

The foil action ability combined with multiple immediate actions in a round, however, is far too powerful, imo. If foil action was limited to 1/encounter, or 3/encounter or something, that'd be far superior. But once per round? Combat's already heavily weighted towards the PCs because of their severe action advantage.

[Midnight_v]

Because it's not actual class features that give a reason to stay in the Fighter class, yes.

So why do you want people to stay in Fighter?
Honestly I didn't say that. I'm not sure how you put that strawman together, lol, straw I imagine with straw...
My very suggestion is about fighters universally multiclassing out. Though to be honest w/u... it is reasonable to expect that you'd be able to take a class to 20 and that it'd be at least a reasonable mechanical option. As it stands its not the awesome. I just looked at it and found it imbalanced that when I see all the other classes Prc out they have prcs that continue granting them what they get from the class. Except the fighter. I've learned from this thread that doing it as I suggest, actully makes very little change. Very little, improving the usefullness of fighter2 dips, being the formost.


Frank & K's fighter is like the only piece of their Tome material that I like. Well, their abortive work on special materials is also pretty cool
There is a full write up on special materials, somewhere.
Honestly, I like the fluff of that world more than anything, cause it seems like logic applied to the monster manual, and how that would affect a game world. Its superior.

The foil action ability combined with multiple immediate actions in a round, however, is far too powerful I've heard lots of people complain about that. . .

foil action was limited to 1/encounter, or 3/encounter or something but I've never had anybody fix it so well.
Some people seem to think its unbalanced because of that ability, but honestly its the fighter that I've always wanted to play.
I keep thinking about making a thread about it. I might get around to discussing "The Tome" this week.