Magic Item Creation (Are we doing smth. wrong?)

[Krazzman]

Hello again folks,

after safely returning from Wacken Open Air and having a little vacation, I'm back with a question about Magic Item Creation and Magic Item handling.

In our rounds Item Creation is mostly disturbed by forbidding magic itself, being too busy or just not getting the materials. But as I want to make an own Campaign again, I want to be clear on the rules.

1. Item Creation:

The most point that disturbes me is the fact that you need to have a +1 weapon to get it a flaming weapon. Thus paying 6000 GP for an +1 to hit and dmg and a +1d6 fire dmg.

But the questions I have are:

Is it gamebreaking to allow just a Flaming weapon / Keen Scimitar (instead of a +1 Keen Scimitar)?

How is it about enhancements that don't give a +1 Enhancement price like a spell that raises the cost with 1,5k fix? (Example: making a +1 Flaming Longsword (+2 Enhancement cost) that can bring light 3 times a day (a fixed price of 1,5k)

2. Item Handling:

Yeah, that seems to be a problem for me. I can't find any rules about a weapon with the Keen ability to do an Additional damage (like +2 to hit and damage of a normal +2 weapon).
But, and thats the point that confuses me, in our normal gaming groups the flaming longsword of flaming burst is a +3 weapon with +3 to hit and dmg and the bonuses from enhancements.

Now the questions in this part:

Did we do something wrong here? (Cause it was not declared as a houserule by our DM's) And how is it meant to be?

I hope you understand my confusion about that topic and can help me.

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

[King Atticus]

But, and thats the point that confuses me, in our normal gaming groups the flaming longsword of flaming burst is a +3 weapon with +3 to hit and dmg and the bonuses from enhancements.

Now the questions in this part:

Did we do something wrong here? (Cause it was not declared as a houserule by our DM's) And how is it meant to be?


The way it should break down is:
MW Longsword: Enhancement Bonus +1, 2,000gp (+1 to attack and hit)
Flaming Burst SPECIAL ABILITY (+2 cost): 16,000gp (difference between +3 and +1)
But as this is a special ability it does not confer the extra to hit or damage that a enhancement bonus would.

So, yeah, really expensive for not a ton of gain. Weapon Advancement kinda sucks. But anyway hope that helps.

[LaughingRogue]

Hello again folks,

after safely returning from Wacken Open Air and having a little vacation, I'm back with a question about Magic Item Creation and Magic Item handling.

In our rounds Item Creation is mostly disturbed by forbidding magic itself, being too busy or just not getting the materials. But as I want to make an own Campaign again, I want to be clear on the rules.

1. Item Creation:

The most point that disturbes me is the fact that you need to have a +1 weapon to get it a flaming weapon. Thus paying 6000 GP for an +1 to hit and dmg and a +1d6 fire dmg.

But the questions I have are:

Is it gamebreaking to allow just a Flaming weapon / Keen Scimitar (instead of a +1 Keen Scimitar)?

How is it about enhancements that don't give a +1 Enhancement price like a spell that raises the cost with 1,5k fix? (Example: making a +1 Flaming Longsword (+2 Enhancement cost) that can bring light 3 times a day (a fixed price of 1,5k)

2. Item Handling:

Yeah, that seems to be a problem for me. I can't find any rules about a weapon with the Keen ability to do an Additional damage (like +2 to hit and damage of a normal +2 weapon).
But, and thats the point that confuses me, in our normal gaming groups the flaming longsword of flaming burst is a +3 weapon with +3 to hit and dmg and the bonuses from enhancements.

Now the questions in this part:

Did we do something wrong here? (Cause it was not declared as a houserule by our DM's) And how is it meant to be?

I hope you understand my confusion about that topic and can help me.

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

How was Blind Guardian?

[Diarmuid]

Magical Enhancement bonuses: +X Attack/Dmg are completely separate from Magical Enhancements that add special bonuses.

Most people would say that adding Flaming to a MW weapon rather than a +1 Magical Weapon is not going to break your game.

Magical additions that dont have Enhancement "+" equivalents are straight additions to cost.

Adding "Light 3xday" for 1500 to a +1 Longsword is the same as adding "Light 3xday" to a +5 Vorpal Dispelling Longsword.

If you decide to allow Enhancements to be put on Weapons/Armor without them first having "plusses", I would put some kind of limit on how much enchantment can occur without adding an enhancement bonus (a "plus") first.

[Keld Denar]

Guten Tag!

Yea, as others have said, +equivalent things are INSTEAD of the enhancement bonus.

If you have a +1 Longsword, it gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage.

If you have a +2 Longsword, it gives +2 to hit and +2 to damage.

If you have a +1 Flaming Longsword, it gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage + 1d6 fire damage.

If you have a +1 Keen Longsword, it gives +1 to hit and +1 to damage, and the critical threat range of the weapon is doubled.

A +1 Keen Longsword costs the same as a +2 Longsword, but it does NOT give you +2 to hit and +2 to damage. Keen gives you an ability INSTEAD of the enhancement bonus. If you take the ability, you don't get the enhancement bonus.

As far as enchanting weapons without at least a minimum of a +1 enhancement bonus, its against the rules, but its not an unfair house rule if you want to go there.

[ericgrau]

1. Gamebreaking? No. A big power boost? Yes. That +1 wasn't worth much anyway compared to masterwork, now you're going from hardly anything to something significant.

2. The +3 equivalency only affects the cost. It doesn't give a bonus to hit and damage.

It sounds like you have house rules helping out anyone with a weapon. It may change your strategies a bit, favor those with weapons, favor casters who buff those with weapons (haste especially), etc., but it won't ruin the game. Since everyone gets it and it's only a moderate power boost it's not a big deal. Even casters can take advantage of it in ways that I hinted at. If it's a simple mistake then tell your DM to fix it, otherwise take advantage of it and plan your strategies accordingly.

[Krazzman]

How was Blind Guardian?

They were pretty cool, afaik you can see the whole concert on youtube. (with access to zdf mediathek you can watch subway to sally and a few others.)

Thanks alot for your advice and information.
Another question popped up, if my Character starts with an +1 Falchion and i want to make it Keen, do I have to pay for the +1 again? Or can I just pay the 4k for making it Keen?

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

[graeylin]

They were pretty cool, afaik you can see the whole concert on youtube. (with access to zdf mediathek you can watch subway to sally and a few others.)

Thanks alot for your advice and information.
Another question popped up, if my Character starts with an +1 Falchion and i want to make it Keen, do I have to pay for the +1 again? Or can I just pay the 4k for making it Keen?

Have a nice day,
Krazzman
pay the difference only.

[Keld Denar]

It would be 6000g, the difference between a +2 (8000g) and a +1 (2000g).

Assuming you could find someone to upgrade it (or you upgrade it yourself).



Adding New Abilities
A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 sword.

[Sarone]

Since this topic is up already, I'll expand it.


BACKGROUND:

Ok, in the process of the campaign, I would like to create some wonderous items for the party. We are a divine heavy party (7 players: 2 Oracles (1 Battle/1 Life), 2 Paladins, 1 Inquisitor, 1 Alchemist, and 1 Barbarian/Rogue), though I have forgotten what the Paladin took as Archetypes, if they did take any). It is partially from being divine heavy and restricted in access to certain spells that brings this up.

I currently have an Half-Orc Oracle of Battle in the Carrion Crown AP. Once he gets high enough, I want to start crafting various pieces of gear with spells being stored in them. Since this character and one or two might be going the route of crafting for the party, we might be going for either spell completion or Command Word Activation.

I want the spells be usable a certain number of times per day. I also want to upgrade the spells stored in items as we level so the items can still be usable.

SITUATION:
For the party: I want to create a set of bracers that will be holding a Shield of Faith spell that I want usable 3/day. Minimum Caster level I'm going for will be 3. I figure this will be the break down as far as price goes for the spell:

50 (for spell uses)X3 (caster level)x1 (Spell Level)= 150 GP

Is there anything I'm not tracking for making the party bracers? How much should I pay for it to be Spell Completion? What about Command Word?

For my character: I'm going for a bit more special. In addition to the above spell, I'm going for Boiling Blood (due to having the orc subtype, I get a +2 Morale Strength Bonus instead of "It taste like burning":biggrin:).

Due to it being a level 2 spell, I'm also going to up the CL for both to 4, but I also want to make it where it can only be usable by those of the Orc Subtype (non orc subtypes will not be happy with their blood on fire). Based on RAW, that looks like a possible 30%, though just as likely 10%, decrease in price due to it being of limited use.

50 (for spell uses)X4 (caster level)x1 (Spell Level)= 200
50 (for spell uses)X4 (caster level)x2 (Spell Level)= 400

So far that puts me at 600 GP before the reduction due to race. Like the above, is there any other costs that I overlooked?

So, am I missing anything? Would the GM have any trouble with allowing either item?

[VacantPsalm]

Since this topic is up already, I'll expand it.


BACKGROUND:

Ok, in the process of the campaign, I would like to create some wonderous items for the party. We are a divine heavy party (7 players: 2 Oracles (1 Battle/1 Life), 2 Paladins, 1 Inquisitor, 1 Alchemist, and 1 Barbarian/Rogue), though I have forgotten what the Paladin took as Archetypes, if they did take any). It is partially from being divine heavy and restricted in access to certain spells that brings this up.

I currently have an Half-Orc Oracle of Battle in the Carrion Crown AP. Once he gets high enough, I want to start crafting various pieces of gear with spells being stored in them. Since this character and one or two might be going the route of crafting for the party, we might be going for either spell completion or Command Word Activation.

I want the spells be usable a certain number of times per day. I also want to upgrade the spells stored in items as we level so the items can still be usable.

SITUATION:
For the party: I want to create a set of bracers that will be holding a Shield of Faith spell that I want usable 3/day. Minimum Caster level I'm going for will be 3. I figure this will be the break down as far as price goes for the spell:

50 (for spell uses)X3 (caster level)x1 (Spell Level)= 150 GP

Is there anything I'm not tracking for making the party bracers? How much should I pay for it to be Spell Completion? What about Command Word?

For my character: I'm going for a bit more special. In addition to the above spell, I'm going for Boiling Blood (due to having the orc subtype, I get a +2 Morale Strength Bonus instead of "It taste like burning":biggrin:).

Due to it being a level 2 spell, I'm also going to up the CL for both to 4, but I also want to make it where it can only be usable by those of the Orc Subtype (non orc subtypes will not be happy with their blood on fire). Based on RAW, that looks like a possible 30%, though just as likely 10%, decrease in price due to it being of limited use.

50 (for spell uses)X4 (caster level)x1 (Spell Level)= 200
50 (for spell uses)X4 (caster level)x2 (Spell Level)= 400

So far that puts me at 600 GP before the reduction due to race. Like the above, is there any other costs that I overlooked?

So, am I missing anything? Would the GM have any trouble with allowing either item?*Although I've done a lot of looking into magic item creation, I've never actually got far enough in a game to REALLY try it. If someone would confirm that I am correct in all of this that would be nice*

The "Single use, use-activated" thing is to make a magic item that's more like a potion, as in you use it ONCE then it's gone, not 1/day. The thing to remember about the item creation chart is that it's a guide for DMs who want to make a magic item and figure out how much it would be worth. (like the price of a monkey fist that will grant you 3 wishes.) As a DM, I wouldn't allow my player to make a Wondrous item with either "Single use, spell completion", "Single use, use-activated" or "50 charges, spell trigger" because those are the mechanics for making something that works like a scroll, potion or wand. Allowing that makes the feat for those specific items worthless.

What you want is either Command word or Use-activated. Command word is a bit cheaper because it's not as solid as use-activated. (silence will stop the word from going through. At least this is what I figured about that price thing.) If you want something that works X/day, the math (command word) would look like this:

(Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp) Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

For a command word Shield of Faith 3/day, it would be:

(2 x 3 x 1800) / (5/3) = 6480 (rounded up the .9999999)

Sadly not nearly as cheap. You might what to consider once per day:

(2 x 3 x 1800) / (5/1) = 2160

Still not super cheap, but remember that the chart says Base Price, as in market price. To craft that, you would pay half the price in gold (1080) and 1/25 of the price in XP (86.4). Real quick, your Boiling Blood at CL 4 command word once a day then 3 times a day:

(2 x 4 x 1800) / (5/1) = 2880
(2 x 4 x 1800) / (5/3) = 8640 (rounded up the .9999999 again)
or to craft
1440 Gold and 115.2 XP (1/day)
4320 gold and 345.6 XP (3/day)

[Fizban]

(Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp) Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

I find it easier to read as: (SL*CL*1800/5*3). Or to put it another way, a 1/day item is one fifth (1/5) the cost of a continuous or at-will item, which you then multiply by the number of daily charges you want. This is a good workaround for if your players want continuous items of spells that really shouldn't be continuous: instead they get 5 uses per day for the same price.

Shield of Faith is actually a 1st level spell, so it's pretty dang cheap (cheap enough that your DM might balk at the default pricing, and it's totally within his rights to make it cost however much he wants). Assuming a solid 3 minute duration so you can cast it before you kick down the door:
1*3*1800/5*3= 3,240gp
Is the default price for a 3 minute Shield of Faith 3/day with a command word. It takes a standard action to activate like any other item and is only up when you've actually used it, and it's very easy to dispel. It provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC, compared to a Ring of Protection +2 which costs 8,000gp. If your party is always ambushing people, then it's better than the ring. If you never know what's going to happen next, then the ring is a lot more reliable.

Regarding weapon abilities without the initial +1 enhancement: this is fine for most abilities, but be aware that there are some expansion book abilities that it won't work with. When the designers print an ability that is priced using enhancement +'s that gives you something unique (like making poison last for two attacks instead of one), or casts a spell some number of times per day (like a Dispelling weapon), they price it assuming that you will buy it as soon as possible, and assuming that it will also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus first. So a Virulent weapon (that doubles your poison use) is meant to never cost less than 8,000gp, even though Virulent itself is only a +1 cost. The same goes for a Dispelling weapon, which as you might imagine will let anyone get a 3rd level spell effect, and is not meant to be available for less than 8,000gp.

All this means is that you'll want to keep your eyes open for weapon abilities that might be too good if you allow them too cheaply. Then if they would be, just require that it already have some other enhancement first, and you'll get the same pricing effect the designers intended.

[Sarone]

I find it easier to read as: (SL*CL*1800/5*3). Or to put it another way, a 1/day item is one fifth (1/5) the cost of a continuous or at-will item, which you then multiply by the number of daily charges you want. This is a good workaround for if your players want continuous items of spells that really shouldn't be continuous: instead they get 5 uses per day for the same price.

Shield of Faith is actually a 1st level spell, so it's pretty dang cheap (cheap enough that your DM might balk at the default pricing, and it's totally within his rights to make it cost however much he wants). Assuming a solid 3 minute duration so you can cast it before you kick down the door:
1*3*1800/5*3= 3,240gp
Is the default price for a 3 minute Shield of Faith 3/day with a command word. It takes a standard action to activate like any other item and is only up when you've actually used it, and it's very easy to dispel. It provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC, compared to a Ring of Protection +2 which costs 8,000gp. If your party is always ambushing people, then it's better than the ring. If you never know what's going to happen next, then the ring is a lot more reliable.


That is true. I wasn't totally considering that.

Just a reminder, this in the Pathfinder system, not 3.5. PF gotten rid of the XP cost.

Does the costs take into account it is taking up a Bracer/Bracelet slot as well?

Also, where does it say 1800 in the PF CRB, since I wasn't seeing it anywhere either there or the PRD.

[Fizban]

Unfortunately I don't know anything about Pathfinder's item creation changes, so I can't tell you where to look for those. The 1800 assumes that the item takes up an item slot, or in some cases that it takes a hand to hold (such as if it were a Rod). Slotless items like Ioun Stones double the price.

[gbprime]

There's one other important reason not to drop the magical bonus as a prerequisite...


Hardness and Hit Points: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s or shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points.

The abilities like flaming and keen are the equivalent of +1's for cost, but they don't add to hardness, hp, or qualify for the "cannot damage it" rule. It sucks to invest thousands of gold in a weapon only to have an ogre destroy it by beating on you with a nonmagical club...

[Sarone]

Ok, using the points that have been pointed out, I'm going to go back though and update the two items I'm "designing". Using the SL*CL*1800/5*3

Now that we have the adding magic put to the side, time for the next question: if the item in question is going to require a masterwork item, would you allow the characters to create the masterworked part earlier in the PC's carreer?

Party Bracers of Faith

Design Focus: Cast Shield of Faith @ CL 3 for 3/day from a bracer item on command word.

1*3*1800/5*3=3240/2=1620 GP and 2 Days of Work to Create, requires DC of 8


Orc Bracers of Zeal

Design Focus: At CL 4, be able to cast Shield of Faith 3/day and Boiling Blood 3/day, but only usable by Orcs and Orc subtypes.

1*4*1800/5*3=4320/2=2160 GP
2*4*1800/5*3=8640/2=4320*1.5 (due to taking up the same slot as the Shield of Faith)=6480 GP

8640 GP, requires nine days of work and a DC 9 with out the Orc requirement.


Since I want this only the benefits usable by orcs and orc subtypes, should I use the 10% reduction or 30% reduction? Or can I have it where if worn/activated by non orcs they get hit by the Boiling Blood (taking 1 point of Fire Damage per round) as long as they are wearing it/for four rounds?