Warlock in Pathfinder?

[Scarlet-Devil]

Does anyone know of either an official conversion or general guidelines by which to convert a 3.5 class to Pathfinder? The ideas that immediately come to mind for me are: change hit die to d8, throw in three or four bonus feats (probably limited to certain categories), and convert skills and possibly invocations etc as needed. One thing I wonder is if Warlocks should get Acrobatics as a class skill, seeing as how they have Jump in 3.5...

[Drelua]

The Tome of Secrets converted a bunch of 3.5 classes to Pathfinder, including the warlock, swashbuckler, and a few more from the 'complete' series. You can get the PDF from Paizo's official site.

[Scarlet-Devil]

The Tome of Secrets converted a bunch of 3.5 classes to Pathfinder, including the warlock, swashbuckler, and a few more from the 'complete' series. You can get the PDF from Paizo's official site.

Splendiferous! Going to check that out now.

[Kansaschaser]

The Tome of Secrets converted a bunch of 3.5 classes to Pathfinder, including the warlock, swashbuckler, and a few more from the 'complete' series. You can get the PDF from Paizo's official site.


Splendiferous! Going to check that out now.

The Paizo version of the Warlock and Artificer is NOTHING like the class abilities you get in 3.5. They didn't so much as convert them, as they made an entirely new class and used the old names from 3.5.

I don't think Paizo had the licencing to convert them to Pathfinder, so they had to come up with an alternative.

If you truely want a Warlock converted to Pathfinder, you might need to do it yourself or find someone who already converted it in the Homebrew section.

[Scarlet-Devil]

I see; it is very different after all. :smallsigh:

If anyone knows anything else, or has done a homebrew conversion themselves, let me know.

[Luckmann]

I too would like to see a properly Pathfinderized Warlock (as well as Artificer). Preferably something between 3.5 and 4e, incorporation Pacts in the same manner it works in 4e, but without.. well.. anything else 4e does. Similar to how the Sorcerer Bloodlines work. It should preferably also work in the Hellfire Warlock PRC aspects into it.

The Paizo version of the Warlock and Artificer is NOTHING like the class abilities you get in 3.5. They didn't so much as convert them, as they made an entirely new class and used the old names from 3.5.

I don't think Paizo had the licencing to convert them to Pathfinder, so they had to come up with an alternative.

If you truely want a Warlock converted to Pathfinder, you might need to do it yourself or find someone who already converted it in the Homebrew section.Tome of Secrets was not Paizo. I repeat - not Paizo.

Tome of Secrets and what it contains is horrible.

[subject42]

Does anyone know of either an official conversion or general guidelines by which to convert a 3.5 class to Pathfinder? The ideas that immediately come to mind for me are: change hit die to d8, throw in three or four bonus feats (probably limited to certain categories), and convert skills and possibly invocations etc as needed. One thing I wonder is if Warlocks should get Acrobatics as a class skill, seeing as how they have Jump in 3.5...

I ran a PF game for a while with a Warlock. My memory is a little hazy, but here's what I remember doing:


d8 hit die (From d6)
Class skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Fly


Beyond that, everything is PF-kosher. You may want to reduce the DC on deceive item, due to things like syngergy bonuses being gone, but that's it.

Also, don't forget that concentration checks are a little tougher than they were in 3.5.

[Luckmann]

I ran a PF game for a while with a Warlock. My memory is a little hazy, but here's what I remember doing:


d8 hit die (From d6)
Class skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Fly


Beyond that, everything is PF-kosher. You may want to reduce the DC on deceive item, due to things like syngergy bonuses being gone, but that's it.

Also, don't forget that concentration checks are a little tougher than they were in 3.5.I do have to ask - what's the rationale behind Acrobatics & Fly?

[Groverfield]

Acrobatics because they got a few of those skills in 3.5
Fly because any class that is able to fly through spells or abilities gets it as a class skill to determine their maneuverability

[subject42]

I do have to ask - what's the rationale behind Acrobatics & Fly?

I gave the player acrobatics because Jump was originally a class skill. Also, there's the Leaps and Bounds invocation that grants bonuses to Balance, Jump, and Tumble. Together, they comprise acrobatics.

As for fly, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards get it, and the Warlock is at least as flight-focused as those three classes.

[Alaris]

Ah, I love this. There is a PDF specifically made for converting classes and prestige classes from 3.5 to Pathfinder. It's not perfect, by any means, but I don't believe that Warlock itself is broken, compared to Pathfinder classes... so at best, I think you'd find yourself falling BEHIND, rather than being too powerful.

Here you go:

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/v5748btpy89m6

[Scarlet-Devil]

Ah, I love this. There is a PDF specifically made for converting classes and prestige classes from 3.5 to Pathfinder. It's not perfect, by any means, but I don't believe that Warlock itself is broken, compared to Pathfinder classes... so at best, I think you'd find yourself falling BEHIND, rather than being too powerful.

Here you go:

http://paizo.com/store/downloads/v5748btpy89m6

It's helpful, but the guidelines are pretty general. It's nice that Warlocks get class features (sort've) at every level, since it lessens the need to make up new features for dead levels, and they already get a decent 20th level "capstone". Unfortunately I think you're right about it falling behind somewhat compared to the normal Pathfinder classes.

[Xtomjames]

I love Warlocks, they're probably my most favorite of spellcasters. Here is what I'd do to convert them to Pathfinder.

Increase number of invocations known by four (an extra invocation every four levels), increase HD to D8s and bonus invocations as per the bonus spell chart.
Bonus feat every 5 levels would also be good.
Give the option of choosing a Sorcerer Pact to gain pact spells and invocations of the appropriate level to spice it up.

Skills: Acrobatics (apply the jump bonus to this), bluff, craft, diplomacy, disable device, fly, intimidate, Knowledge: Arcana, Religion, Planes, Perception, Spellcraft, Stealth, and Use Magic Device.

Skill points can remain the same but without the initial multiplier. I'd also remove the alignment restrictions, give them Any.

I'd give them medium armor and access to the following weapons: Rapier, whip and hand crossbow, on top of their normal weapon proficiencies.

Change fiendish resilience to fast healing 1 operating in the same method (having to go into a trance)

That's pretty much it. Though be sure to check the invocations as some will have changed (baleful polymorph and Utterdark blast come to mind).

[FMArthur]

I really would increase their hit dice. The d6 is for the full casters now, and Warlock is basically a half-caster archer who happens to have a couple pretty good melee invocations.

[Xtomjames]

I really would increase their hit dice. The d6 is for the full casters now, and Warlock is basically a half-caster archer who happens to have a couple pretty good melee invocations.


See edit, however they're not archers. They're still full casters in my opinion. I've used them too often to know just how powerful they can be. I can break a straight warlock so fast it's not funny.

[deuxhero]

^^ If giving them weapons, I'd give them more "demon"/"devil" weapons (glavie, trident if martial I forget, whip)

[stainboy]

I really would increase their hit dice. The d6 is for the full casters now, and Warlock is basically a half-caster archer who happens to have a couple pretty good melee invocations.

There's a line in the official conversion guide that states that. If the class has medium BAB, bump it up to d8 HD.

This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RflsxfRKmFM) has a youtube video about converting the warlock. He hands out some big buffs that aren't strictly necessary just for conversion, but I like his changes. d8 HD, 4+Int skills and an invocation every level.

[MeeposFire]

Change the skills as above. (I would also go to 4 skill points but that is just what I like to do).

Make a list of pacts that you like (fiendish, draconic, celestial, fey, etc) and put one invocation per grade into them that fit the theme (fey would use illusions and charms for instance).

Make eldritch blast work like a full attack when not using a blast shape and have it work as a melee attack as well (essentially the best part of glaive for free). Since stuff like hellfire doesn't exist this keeps EB relevant. Consider a feat, class ability (mid high to high level), or essence to make it a supernatural ability.

Bonus feats are cool too just for customization. You could tie them into the pacts with themes. You could also tie new class skills to a pact.

Think of a cool capstone. It can be the same for everybody or different based on pact. One example is to allow you to combine two essences on one blast.

[The Dark Fiddler]

See edit, however they're not archers. They're still full casters in my opinion. I've used them too often to know just how powerful they can be. I can break a straight warlock so fast it's not funny.

Warlocks are most definitely NOT full-casters though, at least by the general definitions (caster that can cast spells up to ninth level).

[deuxhero]

Consider a feat, class ability (mid high to high level), or essence to make it a supernatural ability.

Already is.

[MeeposFire]

Already is.

If you are thinking the feat I am it doesn't work.

[deuxhero]

No, pretty sure EB and all invocations are one without any mods.

[MeeposFire]

They are spell like abilities not supernatural abilities. Being spell like means they are subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not provoke attacks of opportunity (spell likes provoke).

[Tetsubo 57]

I think a PF Warlock should get an Invocation every level. Though the power level of the Invocations should be as the standard 3.5 Warlock. I also think they need a capstone ability. I suggest a twin Eldritch Blast ability. You get two EB per round at 20th level. I also make sure *every* class has each four skill ranks.

[stainboy]

Oh hey, didn't know you posted here.

Capstones are a trick to appease people who don't like multiclassing without changing anything. You have to play at level 20 for them to matter, and at that level they still don't matter unless they let you cast Gate faster. So warlock needs a capstone for consistency but you can write whatever you want. At level 20 the warlock gets a Ferrari and an awesome pair of sunglasses.

[Tetsubo 57]

Oh hey, didn't know you posted here.

Capstones are a trick to appease people who don't like multiclassing without changing anything. You have to play at level 20 for them to matter, and at that level they still don't matter unless they let you cast Gate faster. So warlock needs a capstone for consistency but you can write whatever you want. At level 20 the warlock gets a Ferrari and an awesome pair of sunglasses.

Since 2008. And I have come to really despise PrCs. I much prefer the archetypes in PF. Let me play the character I want from first level. And rewarding people for staying loyal to a class for 20 levels is a feature, not a bug.

[stainboy]

I didn't say it was a bug, but the idea comes from people who don't like optimization but still think like internet optimizers. They don't want to multiclass but they still think of their level 4 character as a level 20 character in training.

I do agree that archetypes and ACFs > PrCs. PrCs mean lots of character concepts can't be expressed before level 6-8, which means people don't want to play the low levels where the scaling still works and the classes are kind of balanced.

[Xtomjames]

Warlocks are most definitely NOT full-casters though, at least by the general definitions (caster that can cast spells up to ninth level).

Actually that depends on the build, technically speaking Dark invocations are 8-9th level spells for the purposes of spell penetration (which applies to Warlocks). Further, because of imbue item, what a Warlock can't cast as an invocation (for which many spells are duplicated already) s/he can make an item to do it for them instead. Thus Warlocks, at least in my opinion are full casters (regardless of the general definition supplied by the RAW). A warlock would wipe the floor with a sorcerer or wizard of the same level.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Actually that depends on the build, technically speaking Dark invocations are 8-9th level spells for the purposes of spell penetration (which applies to Warlocks).

Doesn't make them 9th level spells, though. Not to mention the fact that they aren't even spells, they're SLAs, IIRC.


Further, because of imbue item, what a Warlock can't cast as an invocation (for which many spells are duplicated already) s/he can make an item to do it for them instead.

Invocations don't duplicate that many spells; there's plenty unrepresented. Even so, that doesn't really make them a full-caster, since they have to craft items to do it for them


Thus Warlocks, at least in my opinion are full casters (regardless of the general definition supplied by the RAW).

Well, alright, but that's kinda like saying, "In my opinion, apples are blue." You're right if you use a different definition of blue, but everybody's gonna look at you a bit weird when you say something blatantly contradicting the generally accepted norm.


A warlock would wipe the floor with a sorcerer or wizard of the same level.

...no, not at all.

[Cieyrin]

HD is a function of BAB now. Warlocks have average BAB, meaning they get d8 HD.

I do agree with gaining an invocation every level, though I'm not sure so much about the weapon proficiencies. They've made a pact with the powers below, not trained with their armies in the finer points of impaling your enemies in the cruelest way possible.

Making Eldritch Blasts an attack action is also good juju for having them keep up on the DPS. Keeps the shenanigans with Quicken down, too, since you have problems keeping it viable, what with the ever increasing SL equivalent making it harder and harder to keep you CL high enough to let you keep Quickening it.

[Scarlet-Devil]

Keeps the shenanigans with Quicken down, too, since you have problems keeping it viable, what with the ever increasing SL equivalent making it harder and harder to keep you CL high enough to let you keep Quickening it.

Although that's actually been errata'd; a vanilla EB is always the equivalent of a 1st level spell, so it would only be a 'problem' when it comes to high level shapes and essences.

[Cieyrin]

Although that's actually been errata'd; a vanilla EB is always the equivalent of a 1st level spell, so it would only be a 'problem' when it comes to high level shapes and essences.

Huh, I must have missed that. Good to see the scaling problem got fixed at some point.

[Xtomjames]

Although that's actually been errata'd; a vanilla EB is always the equivalent of a 1st level spell, so it would only be a 'problem' when it comes to high level shapes and essences.

Actually the errata makes it a spell-like ability, so it qualifies for the metamagic that applies to spell-like abilities. (Specifically a 1st level spell equivalent invocation that is useable at will).

[MeeposFire]

Actually the errata makes it a spell-like ability, so it qualifies for the metamagic that applies to spell-like abilities. (Specifically a 1st level spell equivalent invocation that is useable at will).

It was always a spell like ability the change was that the effective level of the spell it represented is now locked at one instead of half warlock level (exception being using eldritch blast enhancers like shapes and the like).

[Drachasor]

It was always a spell like ability the change was that the effective level of the spell it represented is now locked at one instead of half warlock level (exception being using eldritch blast enhancers like shapes and the like).

That always struck me as a rather odd nerf.

[MeeposFire]

That always struck me as a rather odd nerf.

That isn't a nerf. It makes it easier for you to use metamagic abilities like quicken spell like abilities since pre eratta a high level warlock couldn't use quicken with his eldritch blast and now he can. It is also easier to concentrate on and stuff like that. The only nerf I can see is that it fails against globes of invulnerability but that is really niche and can be overcome by using greater and dark blast enhancers.

[Drachasor]

That isn't a nerf. It makes it easier for you to use metamagic abilities like quicken spell like abilities since pre eratta a high level warlock couldn't use quicken with his eldritch blast and now he can. It is also easier to concentrate on and stuff like that. The only nerf I can see is that it fails against globes of invulnerability but that is really niche and can be overcome by using greater and dark blast enhancers.

I just remembered the globe spells. I forgot the spell-like ability feats were annoying that way. Though, they could have gone with the half-CL - 4 and been good.

[MeeposFire]

I just remembered the globe spells. I forgot the spell-like ability feats were annoying that way. Though, they could have gone with the half-CL - 4 and been good.

They could I guess but I think the current idea is easier and just as viable considering you are going to want a couple higher level eldritch blast enhancers. Or heck just use vitriolic blast and call it a day.

[DeMouse]

The Tome of Secrets is a horrible book, do not use it.

My reccomendation for a warlock in PF is take the 3.5 one. Change Eldritch Blast progression to the same as sneak attack.

Add the Arcane Flurry ability from the TOS warlock as a free ability at 12th level (as an eldritch blast shape).

Get rid of the regeneration, DR and resistances from the warlock. Give them a sorceror bloodline minus the bonus spells.

Optionally give them an extra invocation known at the levels where the sorceror bloodline would give them an extra spell.


I ran a game with this and to worked out really well.