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NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 06:10 PM
The Earth Giant

The Earth Giant race is a group of giants who were long ago bound by the gnome illusionists, and they lost their power as hulking behemoths. Even though they are nowhere near as powerful as their sand and hill giant brethren, earth giants are more adaptable and interested in adventuring.

Religion: Earth Giants tend to worship deities of the soil. Clerics of earth giants aren't picky, but they generally lean towards a deity who offers the Earth Domain.

Alignment: The subjugation of their people and subsequent torture and shackling has led to a slave mindset among many of the earth giants. They tend to be lawful evil, though lawful good is not exactly rare. Earth Giants are very rarely neutral, as they lack enough of a sense of "self" to be self-focused as the neutral alignment is.


Earth Giants as Characters:

-2 Int, -2 Cha Earth giants may have lost their strength, but they gained nothing for it in return. They are as stupid and stubborn as their giant brethren.

Large Size: As a Large size race, earth giants take a -1 size penalty on attack rolls and AC, and a -4 size penalty on Hide checks, but receive a +4 size bonus on opposed combat checks and can use larger weapons and carry more weight than Medium creatures.

Speed: 30 ft

Giant: An earth giant's type is Giant. It does not have the Earth subtype. As a giant, the earth giant is not subject to spells or effects that specifically target humanoids.

Illiteracy: An earth giant's mind has been so warped by the power of illusion that it is unable to read words. All earth giants can never learn to read properly, regardless of their class. (Unlike the barbarian, Neanderthal, and totemist illiteracy, an earth giant may not spend skill points to overcome this racial trait. It is not a result of their stupidity, but of supernatural causes and evolution)

The earth giant's illiteracy grants a few penalties. The earth giant may never trigger the explosive runes spell, though he may be caught in the blast. The comprehend languages spell allows him to understand all spoken language as usual, but does not allow him to read. The read magic spell has no effect on him. The earth giant may never cast spells from a spellbook as an archivist, a wizard, wu jen, or a death mage, though he may take levels in the class anyway. He may not scribe or use scrolls. He may not take ranks in the Decipher Script or Forgery skills.

Weakened Will: The earth giant has been exposed to so many illusions that his mind is completely open to them now. An earth giant automatically fails saving throws allowed versus a spell if the saving throw is Will (Disbelief). If the spell is of the illusion school and offers a saving throw that is not Will (Disbelief), the earth giant still takes a -4 penalty on that saving throw.

Subservient: The earth giant has grown up in a life of slavery and bondage. Even if he escapes that hell, it is difficult for him to break out of the slave mindset. Gnomes who interact with the earth giant receive a +2 bonus to Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks against the earth giant, and ignore size penalties for Intimidate checks made against earth giants.

Racial Emnity: An earth giant receives a +4 racial dodge bonus to his AC against attacks made by gnomes. Dodge bonuses from different sources stack, and are lost when the creature is helpless. Additionally, an earth giant receives a +4 bonus on all grapple-related checks made against gnomes.

Suppressed Power: Though an earth giant's power has been chained within him, it shows itself when he is exposed to any sort of growth. Whenever the earth giant would receive a size bonus to his Strength score, or a bonus to his Strength score from the 4HD level advancement, that bonus is doubled. (In the case of temporary size increases, this extra bonus lasts for the duration of the temporary effect)

Automatic Languages: Common and Giant

Bonus Languages: Gnome, Orc, Goblin, Dwarven and Infernal

Favored Class: Cleric

Drachasor
2011-08-12, 06:36 PM
I think this might be an LA -1 race.

Zale
2011-08-12, 06:50 PM
Yeah..

That's an awful lot of penalties for large size, giant type, and being able to dodge and grapple gnomes better. :smallconfused:

SamBurke
2011-08-12, 06:52 PM
I would give it a -2, honestly.

Zale
2011-08-12, 06:56 PM
Pray to the gods that you don't run into Gnomes as this.

Even so much as a particularly charismatic Gnome commoner could bring an Earth Giant to his knees. :smalleek:

Alaris
2011-08-12, 06:57 PM
Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

If there is a such think as negative Level Adjustments, what are the rules in their regard?

Thank you in advance.

Zale
2011-08-12, 07:01 PM
Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

If there is a such think as negative Level Adjustments, what are the rules in their regard?

Thank you in advance.

I think Pathfinder has negative CR templates. Like Young.

Drachasor
2011-08-12, 07:03 PM
I'd point out that Reach is perhaps worth just one feat. Any warrior-type at first level could have a reach weapon and be able to attack adjacent targets. At most it is a little better than a feat. Also, there are first level spells that give reach. In a way, the Giant type helps balance out the reach, since you can't cast Enlarge Person on a giant. There really aren't that many person-focused spells and the giant type doesn't have any special immunities.

Large does let you get a BIT more damage out of weapons, but you get a -1 penalty to hit and a -1 penalty to AC which isn't fun -- small is considered kind of nice for the bonus to hit and AC, remember.

Keep all of that in mind. I think you are overvaluing these items.

I think no stat mods, no penalties, Large Size, and Giant Type would be closer to balanced. It would probably need some buffing.


Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

I was just making a joke.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 07:22 PM
Edit: I reread the SRD carefully and found a few giant races without an Intelligence penalty. However, that still does not fit the fluff of this race (A group of savages who were already stupid and then got mindraped). The Intelligence and Charisma penalties are needed, and they help balance the race.

I think you're undervaluing Large size quite a bit. For LA 0, this race gets 10 ft reach, +4 on all opposed Strength checks, the ability to grapple and trip Huge creatures, immunity to Trample effects of Medium creatures (so basically, other player races who took Totemist or otherwise got the Trample ability), immunity to the Improved Grab and Swallow Whole abilities of creatures smaller than Huge, immunity to Trip and Grapple from Small creatures, and double average damage on a normal THF (Med Greataxe average damage 5-6, Large Greataxe average 9-12).

They also get access to the Hulking Hurler prestige class, and psychic warriors who manifest expansion can go up to Gargantuan instead of Huge. Additionally, abilities like Monkey Grip or Powerful Build, if you can get them, allow you to use Huge weapons instead. That's even more damage.

Powerful Build is often considered just cause for LA +1 by itself. Actual Large size is even more powerful.

That said, how would you all suggest I balance it?

Lyndworm
2011-08-12, 07:41 PM
Pardon my question that is completely unrelated, but is there precedent for -X or -Y (-1 or -2) Level Adjustments? Or is this a joke, in reference to the fact that the race sucks so much, that he needs to improve it?

If there is a such think as negative Level Adjustments, what are the rules in their regard?

Thank you in advance.
Actually, yes. The Xvart, from Dragon 339 (I think), has a -2 Level Adjustment. However, there were no rules presented to explain how this works.

This is secondhand knowledge on my part and any or all of it may be incorrect.



On topic, I love the idea of a +0 LA Large sized creature, and I agree that it would need some hefty penalties to counterbalance the inherent bonuses. I'm afraid that I don't really like the idea of this thing being so utterly horrible against gnomes, or the fact that they can (effectively) never become a wizard, though. I don't really have much in the way of suggestions, but I felt the need to comment on your creation if I was to post in this thread.

A small Str penalty might not be out of line? It would reduce the effectiveness of the melee types who so covet Large size. After all, Strength is relative; a Large slave with 8 Str is much, much stronger than his Small master with 10 Str. I know it would make me think twice, but it wouldn't turn me off of the idea, unlike the weakness to gnomes.

Also, cloud giants have +2 Int, fire giants have +0 Int, frost giants have +0 Int, stone giants have +0 Int, and storm giants have +6 Int.

Steward
2011-08-12, 07:45 PM
The earth giant's illiteracy grants a few penalties. The earth giant may never trigger the explosive runes spell, though he may be caught in the blast.

I'm not sure this is really a 'penalty'. It sounds like an advantage to me; they can be used by gnome mages as guards in conjunction with rune-based magical defenses without worrying about one of them making a stupid mistake.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 07:47 PM
This is secondhand knowledge on my part and any or all of it may be incorrect.



On topic, I love the idea of a +0 LA Large sized creature, and I agree that it would need some hefty penalties to counterbalance the inherent bonuses. I'm afraid that I don't really like the idea of this thing being so utterly horrible against gnomes, or the fact that they can (effectively) never become a wizard, though. I don't really have much in the way of suggestions, but I felt the need to comment on your creation if I was to post in this thread.

A small Str penalty might not be out of line? It would reduce the effectiveness of the melee types who so covet Large size. After all, Strength is relative; a Large slave with 8 Str is much, much stronger than his Small master with 10 Str. I know it would make me think twice, but it wouldn't turn me off of the idea, unlike the weakness to gnomes.

Also, cloud giants have +2 Int, fire giants have +0 Int, frost giants have +0 Int, stone giants have +0 Int, and storm giants have +6 Int.

I don't agree with giving wizards large size right off the bat. This was intentional, to prevent gish abuse as best as possible. (It's still possible for a sorcerer or a duskblade, but the stat penalties help offset a duskblade, and the sorcerer's inability to use scrolls makes him rely on his spells known even more)

I know that clericzillas will still be able to use this race to the fullest, but I'm alright with that. I stopped archivists and druids don't really gain anything, so 3/4 isn't too bad.

The Strength penalty comes from having 0 bonus to Strength. Remember that stat modifiers are all relative to humans. Dwarves are stockier than humans, elves are quicker, goliaths are stronger. The earth giant is still as powerful as a human, just not nearly as powerful as a giant. (Ogres get +10 Str, Sand giants get +16, etc)

Also, I swordsaged your last point there.

Edit:


Immunity to explosive runes isn't a penalty

Of course it's not. That is the single benefit of the illiteracy feature. I just grouped it under the penalties section because I didn't think a single benefit merited "a few penalties as well as bonuses"

Zale
2011-08-12, 07:50 PM
I suck at balancing, but I'll try!



[SIZE="4"]
Earth Giants as Characters:

-4 Int, -2 Cha Earth giants may have lost their strength, but they gained nothing for it in return. They are as stupid and stubborn as their giant brethren.


Ouch. I don't think I've ever seen two negatives in a race before. I suppose it does make sense, considering the power of a larger size.



Large Size: As a Large size race, earth giants take a -1 size penalty on attack rolls and AC, and a -4 size penalty on Hide checks, but receive a +4 size bonus on opposed combat checks and can use larger weapons and carry more weight than Medium creatures.


The main purpose of this, I suppose.



Giant: An earth giant's type is Giant. It does not have the Earth subtype. As a giant, the earth giant is not subject to spells or effects that specifically target humanoids.


Immunity to "person" spells. That's a good thing/bad thing though.



Illiteracy: An earth giant's mind has been so warped by the power of illusion that it is unable to read words. All earth giants are dyslexic and can never learn to read properly, regardless of their class. (Unlike the barbarian, Neanderthal, and totemist illiteracy, an earth giant may not spend skill points to overcome this racial trait. It is not a result of their stupidity, but of supernatural causes and evolution)

The earth giant's illiteracy grants a few penalties. The earth giant may never trigger the explosive runes spell, though he may be caught in the blast. The comprehend languages spell allows him to understand all spoken language as usual, but does not allow him to read. The read magic spell has no effect on him. The earth giant may never cast spells from a spellbook as an archivist, a wizard, or a death mage, though he may take levels in the class anyway. He may not scribe or use scrolls. He may not take ranks in the Decipher Script skill.


I see nothing really wrong with this, I guess.



Weakened Will: The earth giant has been exposed to so many illusions that his mind is completely open to them now. An earth giant automatically fails saving throws allowed versus a spell if the saving throw is Will (Disbelief). If the spell is of the illusion school and offers a saving throw that is not Will (Disbelief), the earth giant still takes a -4 penalty on that saving throw.


Ouch. Autofail? That seems kind of harsh.



Subservient: The earth giant has grown up in a world of slavery, and even if he escapes, it is very difficult to throw off his bonds. Whenever a gnome tells the earth giant to do something in an authoritative way, the earth giant acts as if he is under the effect of a dominate monster spell, and given a saving throw to resist. (DC = 10 - 1/2 the earth giant's character level + the gnome's Charisma modifier) The earth giant receives a +4 bonus to this saving throw if the gnome is ordering him to do something that is very out-of-character for him to do, or that threatens his own life.

The earth giant gains a special modifier to this saving throw based on his alignment.

Lawful: -10 penalty
Chaotic: +2 bonus
Neutral (LCN axis only): -2 penalty


An.. interesting penalty. One that could suck alot if the DM decides to throw some Gnomes at you. Or a Gnome Sorcerer. Or Bard. Or :smalleek: An Illusionist.



Racial Emnity: An earth giant receives a +4 racial dodge bonus to his AC against attacks made by gnomes. Dodge bonuses from different sources stack, and are lost when the creature is helpless. Additionally, an earth giant receives a +4 bonus on all grapple-related checks made against gnomes.


Ok. The inverse of the Gnome's Racial Enmity.

Lyndworm
2011-08-12, 08:02 PM
I don't agree with giving wizards large size right off the bat. This was intentional, to prevent gish abuse as best as possible. (It's still possible for a sorcerer or a duskblade, but the stat penalties help offset a duskblade, and the sorcerer's inability to use scrolls makes him rely on his spells known even more)
You have a good reason for not wanting the earth giant to be a wizard and I respect that. It's just that something about a physical inability to takeuse a level in a base class built into the race irks me. I realize it's not entirely rational, so I'll not bring it up again.


The Strength penalty comes from having 0 bonus to Strength. Remember that stat modifiers are all relative to humans. Dwarves are stockier than humans, elves are quicker, goliaths are stronger. The earth giant is still as powerful as a human, just not nearly as powerful as a giant. (Ogres get +10 Str, Sand giants get +16, etc)
By relative, I meant relative between sizes, not one another. If these guys were slaves than they weren't meant to be fighting so a -1 to hit and damage doesn't make a difference to the gnomes. However, a difference in carrying capacity does make a difference. A Heavy Load for a typical gnome is 40lbs; a Heavy Load for an earth giant is 400lbs. Lessening that to 160lbs would still make them a bit stronger than the average human, much stronger than the average gnome, and a worse choice for optimizers. That's all I was trying to express, though I did so poorly.


Also, I swordsaged your last point there.
Indeed you did. Curse my clumsy fingers! It takes so long to type anything sensible that my post is usually half irrelevant by the time the intarwub spits it out.

FMArthur
2011-08-12, 08:04 PM
"Slay Earth Giant" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm)

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 08:06 PM
By relative, I meant relative between sizes, not one another. If these guys were slaves than they weren't meant to be fighting so a -1 to hit and damage doesn't make a difference to the gnomes. However, a difference in carrying capacity does make a difference. A Heavy Load for a typical gnome is 40lbs; a Heavy Load for an earth giant is 400lbs. Lessening that to 160lbs would still make them a bit stronger than the average human, much stronger than the average gnome, and a worse choice for optimizers. That's all I was trying to express, though I did so poorly.



But these giants were originally normal giants. It would already have taken some really powerful magic to get a hill giant or an ogre's Strength down to 10, but down to 8 is even harder. Besides, with the Int and Cha penalty, a Str penalty would just make it unplayable.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 08:07 PM
"Slay Earth Giant" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm)

You'd have to fail the second saving throw, which, while granting a -4 penalty, is a Fortitude save (And also a level 4 spell, so that's a lower DC than slay living or disintegrate. Every point counts). In my opinion, it actually makes the slay rogue spell a little more useful.

eftexar
2011-08-12, 08:16 PM
Hmm... Well I think it reaches LA0 quite well, but it definitely leans towards negative more than other races.
But... My problem is, is that all is it really gives is size. I mean, I wouldn't take this class unless I specifically had a character "that just had to be a giant" and I wasn't allowed a level adjustment.
I think your overvaluing size too much. Though it does grant more benefits than penalties, it barely, in my opinion, warrants a +1 LA if you have nothing to balance it. I would say that unless you take subservient away, you need to grant another minor bonus of some sort.

wiimanclassic
2011-08-12, 08:18 PM
"Slay Earth Giant" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm)

Would it make a gnome whos a former slave owner see SMART strong earth giants?

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 08:18 PM
Hmm... Well I think it reaches LA0 quite well, but it definitely leans towards negative more than other races.
But... My problem is, is that all is it really gives is size. I mean, I wouldn't take this class unless I specifically had a character "that just had to be a giant" and I wasn't allowed a level adjustment.
I think your overvaluing size too much. Though it does grant more benefits than penalties, it barely, in my opinion, warrants a +1 LA if you have nothing to balance it. I would say that unless you take subservient away, you need to grant another minor bonus of some sort.

Hmm...I thought Subservient was too situational to be considered a real detriment, it was more for flavor than anything else...but alright. Let's see if I can redo it to make it less mechanically game-breaking.

eftexar
2011-08-12, 08:19 PM
My problem with subservient is if you have a gnome in the party. I can only imagine how a player might abuse this.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 08:22 PM
My problem with subservient is if you have a gnome in the party. I can only imagine how a player might abuse this.

Alright, edited. What do you think now?

Lyndworm
2011-08-12, 08:25 PM
I like the new rule. This is definitely something I could see playing, even though I tend to go for brainy characters. Good job.

eftexar
2011-08-12, 08:27 PM
Much better. It definitely bumps the power back up to the level of the other races. Truthfully it really wouldn't have been a problem if the ability score penalties hadn't been so high.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 08:31 PM
Again, I wanted to make this a race for melee characters, not a gish machine. It makes grapple more viable (slightly), and also has some nice racial fluff.

Personally, I think that a Large size warrior who trades immunity to low level enchantment (Charm Person, Dominate Person) for a weakness to illusions is a fair trade. I could see it being very abusable by a psychic warrior or a cleric.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 08:41 PM
Added Suppressed Power to make the late game earth giant a melee monster.

eftexar
2011-08-12, 08:45 PM
Pretty cool, but now your on the rocks of raising the level adjustment to 1. It doesn't quite make it to that point though.

Lyndworm
2011-08-12, 08:49 PM
It's not obviously better than a Human, so I'd say it's still LA +0. I like the ability a lot.

pyrefiend
2011-08-12, 09:05 PM
Do you think you could ease up on the intelligence penalty, bringing it to just a -2? As it is now, the mental stat penalties are just... so brutal. Obviously it's not a race for wizards, but they should at least be entitled to a few skill points. I can only speak for my current group, but honestly my players wouldn't even consider playing one based on the penalties alone. A total of a -6 appears crippling, even if there are a bunch of racial features to back it up.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-12, 09:06 PM
I suppose since I basically nuked the ability to be an Int based caster (save duskblade and beguiler) I can lower the Int penalty.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-26, 03:11 PM
Added that illiteracy prevents you from taking ranks in the Forgery skill. (I forgot all about it, to be honest, but forgery does require literacy, so there we go)

Morph Bark
2011-09-27, 06:02 AM
Suppressed Power: Though an earth giant's power has been chained within him, it shows itself when he is exposed to any sort of growth. Whenever the earth giant would receive a bonus to his Strength score, either temporary or permanent (such as a bonus for reaching 4th level, or an enhancement bonus from a potion of bull's strength) that bonus is doubled. At any given time, the earth giant may only have up to +10 extra Strength from this feature. (So if an earth giant who had increased his Strength score by 1 every 4th level until level 20 read a tome of gainful exercise +5, he would not receive any other bonuses, as that is a total of +5 extra from the level advancement, and +5 extra from the doubled tome. If the earth giant later put on a belt of giant Strength +6 it would only give him a +6 enhancement bonus to his Strength)

This ability makes no sense.

The increase every 4 levels is not a bonus, you literally up your Strength score. Otherwise you might as well say "if you have a natural 18 Strength, this ability can only grant you an extra +2". Having inherent bonuses feature in seems fine though, considering that is still magic in a way (albeit permanent and not affected by an AMF).

Also, having it capped at +10 from the get-go seems silly. Better have it scaling, like start at +4 and increase it by 2 for every 3 HD they have.


Also, what is a death mage? When reading through illiteracy I presumed the wu jen would be mentioned, but I've never heard of a death mage class.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-27, 11:36 AM
This ability makes no sense.

The increase every 4 levels is not a bonus, you literally up your Strength score. Otherwise you might as well say "if you have a natural 18 Strength, this ability can only grant you an extra +2". Having inherent bonuses feature in seems fine though, considering that is still magic in a way (albeit permanent and not affected by an AMF).

Also, having it capped at +10 from the get-go seems silly. Better have it scaling, like start at +4 and increase it by 2 for every 3 HD they have.


Also, what is a death mage? When reading through illiteracy I presumed the wu jen would be mentioned, but I've never heard of a death mage class.

You're correct that the level increase is not a bonus, but still, it's an increase in Strength (if you so choose), thus it is affected by Suppressed Power.

Your suggested cap makes sense. I'll change it.

Forgot about the wu-jen, adding her in. The death mage is an arcane spellcaster from the Dragon Compendium. He gets a skeletal wolf as a companion, uses blood from his prey instead of somatic components, and gets animate dead as a 2nd level spell.

ZardozSpeaks
2011-09-27, 03:22 PM
The penalties are pretty staggering. I'm always disinclined towards things that prevent certain character options. A wizard earth giant might be an interesting character, but has no potential for anything within these rules.

The strength boosting thing seems like some cheese. Consider that the feat Ability Booster increases any transmutation ability boosting spell by +2.

Also, streamline the penalties more, no more than one or two. You don't want dwarf syndrome, where no one can remember half the racial traits. Forgetting bonuses is one thing, forgetting penalties is another.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-27, 03:50 PM
The penalties are pretty staggering. I'm always disinclined towards things that prevent certain character options. A wizard earth giant might be an interesting character, but has no potential for anything within these rules.

The strength boosting thing seems like some cheese. Consider that the feat Ability Booster increases any transmutation ability boosting spell by +2.

Also, streamline the penalties more, no more than one or two. You don't want dwarf syndrome, where no one can remember half the racial traits. Forgetting bonuses is one thing, forgetting penalties is another.

A wizard earth giant wouldn't make an interesting character, as it would be impossible. Earth Giants can't read, as part of their abuse suffered at the hands of spellcasters. It wouldn't make sense for a creature who couldn't read to cast spells from a spellbook.

Ability Booster is a terrible feat and a terrible balance point.

There are only three penalties, a weakness to illusion, easily persuaded by gnomes, and illiteracy.

Cieyrin
2011-09-28, 04:05 PM
While an interesting attempt at the elusive LA +0 large race that actually is balanced, I do find it offensive in the wording of Illiteracy to imply that dyslexic people are incapable of reading. While it's admittedly more difficult for those who suffer the learning disability to learn to read, it is not impossible and typically involves alternative teaching methods. I'd appreciate it if you'd remove the reference, if you would. :smallannoyed:

Dark Kerman
2011-09-28, 05:55 PM
Uuum, for a creature is large, wouldn't the Base Speed be somewhat larger? They have no dex to make them sluggish.

Dark Kerman
2011-09-28, 05:58 PM
Dex penalty, sorry.

Ralasha
2011-09-28, 06:38 PM
They also have no con bonus, which means they also have a CON penalty, since large size also grants a bonus to con. I would still mark this as a -1 LA.

Large Size does not make up for all of its weaknesses. You come across one illusionist, or especially a gnome illusionist, and your character is useless in a single round.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-28, 10:04 PM
While an interesting attempt at the elusive LA +0 large race that actually is balanced, I do find it offensive in the wording of Illiteracy to imply that dyslexic people are incapable of reading. While it's admittedly more difficult for those who suffer the learning disability to learn to read, it is not impossible and typically involves alternative teaching methods. I'd appreciate it if you'd remove the reference, if you would. :smallannoyed:

Sorry sorry! I have removed the reference, and apologize for all offense it caused.


No speed boost?

Part of how I am balancing the Large size is by giving the race no Str bonus, no Con bonus, no improved movement speed, and no natural armor bonus. In exchange, they take no Dex penalty and have no LA.


I would still mark this LA -1

I'm not getting into negative LAs. If it's a weak choice for an LA 0, that's good enough for me. Not everything has to be optimized, but now people who want to play Large from level 1 can, without wrecking everyone else's game.

Andion Isurand
2011-09-30, 05:05 PM
Not exactly what you have in mind...

But for a +0 LA giant race you can use... perhaps you could just change the type of the Menta and Feral-Kind Cyclopean races in Dragon 323 from humanoid to giant. As written, they are already pretty weak given they take penalties for a lack of depth perception.

For the barbaric Feral-Kind Cyclopean, perhaps you modify their "Glimpse the Future" ability from a passive constant ability into an activated ability that combines it with an increase in size...

Bloodline Legacy (Su): Three times per day as an immediate action, a feral-kind cyclopean may gain a +2 insight bonus to Dexterity, a +1 size bonus to natural armor and increase in size as though affected by enlarge person. This effect lasts 3 rounds + 1 round for every 5 HD.

Ralasha
2011-09-30, 05:11 PM
Well, according to the original legends... a cyclops is a type of giant. so it would work... assuming you're going for giant, rather than just large.

Seerow
2011-09-30, 05:26 PM
I was actually surprised this wasn't terrible when I clicked it. Most large LA 0 races are straight up overpowered. This one apparently started way underpowered, but is arguably overpowered now.


Personally, I'd ditch the gnome bonus vs the giants completely (or if necessary for setting, make it a racial bonus in the gnome writeup, and have it at a fixed +2), and make suppressed power only increase the effect of attribute boosts gained via levelup, and apply to strength or con. (So it could be a +5 str or +5 con effective race, by endgame, but at the start it's nothing)

Metahuman1
2011-09-30, 08:57 PM
Just my 2 Copper Pieces.

Why not make it -2 int -2 Wis? That would fit Simpleton better then -2 Cha. And It would also fit weak willed and mindraped racial heritage better since sans feat's and class features Wis is the stat that fuels Will.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-30, 09:55 PM
Just my 2 Copper Pieces.

Why not make it -2 int -2 Wis? That would fit Simpleton better then -2 Cha. And It would also fit weak willed and mindraped racial heritage better since sans feat's and class features Wis is the stat that fuels Will.

The mindraped part comes in at the weakness to illusions. The penalties to Int and Cha are a result of being normal giants who just had their strength and stamina shackled. (Giants generally have normal to high Wisdom)


-snip-

Suppressed Power doesn't apply to Constitution now, and I won't change that. This is for fluff and meta reasons.

For fluff reasons, it is because the giants had their physical abilities shackled, but the magic that was used to restrain them weakens over time, allowing the giant to access more of his original strength (and only strength) as he matures. However, it also comes out due to magical reasons (magic counteracts other magic) so if the giant uses magic to increase his Strength, it will start to flow forth.

Metawise, I have two real reasons for this. One is because Constitution benefits all classes. I'm not interested in making Large size available or an option for all classes, hence the inability to use scrolls and the penalty to arcane/blasting psionic mental stats. The boost to Strength limits this racial feature's usefulness to gish and warrior builds.

The reason I want it to apply to magical abilities (besides the obvious fluff) is because at low levels, there will be few benefits to choosing this race over an orc or a human (and there will be severe penalties at low levels due to the weakness to illusions).

Making up for this with a slow, scaling bonus to Strength is not the answer. It rewards longevity only, and that's a bad idea. For a game that only lasts six levels, the earth giant's player would not really get use out of a level-only boost to Strength. Meanwhile, he sat through six levels of reduced skill points, awkward social rolls, and avoiding illusions or sitting out of the fight while he was distracted or fleeing.

I gave it a scaling cap to manage it until high level play, but still, this ability makes the earth giant cleric's bull's strength much more noticeable at level 3, it makes expansion or divine power stronger (as it should, after all, you're growing from Large to Huge, not from Medium to Large).

As for the gnome penalty, I like it. *shrugs* I don't want to get rid of it.

Edit: Since you say it's overpowered though, I capped the bonus from Suppressed Power at +10, and spread it out every 4 HD.

Paulcynic
2011-09-30, 10:07 PM
Giant: An earth giant's type is Giant. It does not have the Earth subtype. As a giant, the earth giant is not subject to spells or effects that specifically target humanoids.

I'm not sure how it works in 3.5, but in Pathfinder, Giant (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/ranger.html#humanoid-(giant)) is a humanoid race.

If you use a special rule in your homebrew, or if 3.5 specifically excludes them, then this is an awesome ability as it removes Hold Person (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/holdPerson.html#hold-person) from the equation, which causes the target to become Helpless (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#helpless). This alone makes the Giant a worthy starting race.

Suppressed Power Suppressed Power: Though an earth giant's power has been chained within him, it shows itself when he is exposed to any sort of growth. Whenever the earth giant would receive a bonus to his Strength score, either temporary or permanent (such as a bonus for reaching 4th level, or an enhancement bonus from a potion of bull's strength) that bonus is doubled. At any given time, the earth giant may only have up to +4 extra bonus from this feature, with an additional +2 for every 3 HD he has, to a maximum of +16 at level 18 (So if a level 20 earth giant who had increased his Strength score by 1 every 4th level until level 20 read a tome of gainful exercise +5 and wore a belt of giant strength +6, he would not receive any other bonuses, as all of those together make a +16 bonus. If the earth giant later took off his belt of giant strength +6 and replaced it with a belt of magnificence +8, he would only receive +6 extra Strength) is also very awesome, it's one of those thematic abilities that inspire excitement during the game; especially for a class with the Rage (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/barbarian.html#rage) feature ;) My only complaint is how wordy and mathy the ability is.. yes I can do the math and follow the simple arithmetic, but there are a good number of contingencies to deal with when you hit the cap. This can be a turn off to the entire race. Perhaps adding a bonus amount of strength designated by level when ever ANY Strength Enhancement is present would be both more straight forward, while keeping your intended balance?

For Example:
Any time the Earth Giant gains any Bonuses to its Strength from any source, it gains a single, additional Racial bonus to its Strength. At 1st level, this bonus is +2. It gains an additional +2 Racial Strength bonus every odd level after 1st, capping at a +10 Racial Bonus to Strength at level 19.

The difference here is that you no longer have to worry about going over a cap, and thus NOT getting the doubled Str mod, and thus you don't have to do any extra math. One only need ask: "Did something boost my Strength? If 'Yes' then add X more strength.

And looking at Strength modifiers for Large Monster Races (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html#table-1-3-size), its only a slightly better Strength bonus, while they get no Con bonus nor Dex penalty. And so at all levels its exactly balanced.

Seerow
2011-09-30, 10:15 PM
Well let me put it this way. Right now, your race is horribly underpowered at level 1, due to a myriad of penalties, and limited bonus.

But by level 20, I'd take this over any 0 LA race. +16 strength is outrageously good. And all I need to get it is gear I'd be getting anyway, and on top of being large for free? Yes please.


The bonus needs to be pared down. I suggested dropping it to level up bonuses only, so that you don't get anywhere near so high, but still useful. A large creature with +4-5 strength is too much for a LA+0 at level 1. But by level 20, it's not too unreasonable, the bonus is better than what you typically get, but comes with the penalty of basically dictating where you invest your level up points, and being delayed in getting it.

It also fits the flavor better, as improving your strength with level gets doubled effect due to your latent power.

As far as not increasing con, whatever. Most people don't actually value con high enough to put level up points into, so it doesn't matter. I just thought it would be a nice touch if your giant could end up with like +3 str/+2 con effectively, or something along those lines.



But regardless, really large bonuses and really large penalties are hard to balance, and really have no place on an LA 0 race, even if they are delayed. The concept is good, it just needs to be pared down to something more normal. If you're that worried about the penalties making the giant significantly worse than a straight up human or orc, then that's probably a sign you should consider reducing the penalties some, not give a endgame +16 strength that stacks with everything.

At least make the gnome penalty just a +2 rather than a bonus scaling with the gnome's level (or if you want it to be complex, have it be a penalty of +10 vs any gnome at the start, with the penalty going down as the giant gains in levels, basically overcoming that instinct of subservience). Maybe even roll this in with the illusion penalty, and the Giants aren't more subject to illusions, just gnomish illusions. The giants auto fail against gnome illusions rather than
all illusions, and have a -X penalty against non-disbelief gnome illusions. Why are gnome illusions any different from anyone else's illusions? I don't know. Don't care. Magic is magical and has quirks, and gnomes have their own special brand of illusions that Earth Giants are weak against after a long time of being subject to them.

Then reign in that bonus. If you don't want to restrict it to just level up bonuses, at least put the cap far lower. Like +4-+6, tops. Hell, maybe even give them a 1/day rage ability. I get where you like the flavor of magic countering magic, but that is coming at the cost of a really overpowered ability, and isn't actually central to the idea of the race.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-30, 10:18 PM
I'm not sure how it works in 3.5, but in Pathfinder, Giant (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/ranger.html#humanoid-(giant)) is a humanoid race.

If you use a special rule in your homebrew, or if 3.5 specifically excludes them, then this is an awesome ability as it removes Hold Person (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/holdPerson.html#hold-person) from the equation, which causes the target to become Helpless (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#helpless). This alone makes the Giant a worthy starting race.


Yes, in 3.5, Giant is its own type.




For Example:


Your example doesn't work. Racial bonuses are like a +2 bonus to Dex for being an elf. Bull's Strength applies a +4 enhancement bonus, expansion provides a +2 size bonus, etc. But I changed the Suppressed Power class feature since you posted, perhaps it's easier to understand now?


And looking at Strength modifiers for Large Monster Races (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html#table-1-3-size), its only a slightly better Strength bonus, while they get no Con bonus nor Dex penalty. And so at all levels its exactly balanced.

Unfortunately, I can't balance 3.5 work against Pathfinder monsters. The two systems are very different, despite what people think. But thank you for your support nonetheless. :smallsmile:

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-30, 10:23 PM
Well let me put it this way. Right now, your race is horribly underpowered at level 1, due to a myriad of penalties, and limited bonus.

But by level 20, I'd take this over any 0 LA race. +16 strength is outrageously good. And all I need to get it is gear I'd be getting anyway, and on top of being large for free? Yes please.


Ninja'd. I already capped it at +10.




The bonus needs to be pared down. I suggested dropping it to level up bonuses only, so that you don't get anywhere near so high, but still useful. A large creature with +4-5 strength is too much for a LA+0 at level 1. But by level 20, it's not too unreasonable, the bonus is better than what you typically get, but comes with the penalty of basically dictating where you invest your level up points, and being delayed in getting it.

It also fits the flavor better, as improving your strength with level gets doubled effect due to your latent power.

As far as not increasing con, whatever. Most people don't actually value con high enough to put level up points into, so it doesn't matter. I just thought it would be a nice touch if your giant could end up with like +3 str/+2 con effectively, or something along those lines.


And again, games I play are generally only lasting for five to six levels. So this suggestion is not appealing to me at all, based on my experiences.



But regardless, really large bonuses and really large penalties are hard to balance, and really have no place on an LA 0 race, even if they are delayed. The concept is good, it just needs to be pared down to something more normal. If you're that worried about the penalties making the giant significantly worse than a straight up human or orc, then that's probably a sign you should consider reducing the penalties some, not give a endgame +16 strength that stacks with everything.

At least make the gnome penalty just a +2 rather than a bonus scaling with the gnome's level (or if you want it to be complex, have it be a penalty of +10 vs any gnome at the start, with the penalty going down as the giant gains in levels, basically overcoming that instinct of subservience). Maybe even roll this in with the illusion penalty, and the Giants aren't more subject to illusions, just gnomish illusions. The giants auto fail against gnome illusions rather than
all illusions, and have a -X penalty against non-disbelief gnome illusions. Why are gnome illusions any different from anyone else's illusions? I don't know. Don't care. Magic is magical and has quirks, and gnomes have their own special brand of illusions that Earth Giants are weak against after a long time of being subject to them.


Fair enough, I'll cap the gnome's Favored Enemy bonuses at +2.



Then reign in that bonus. If you don't want to restrict it to just level up bonuses, at least put the cap far lower. Like +4-+6, tops. Hell, maybe even give them a 1/day rage ability. I get where you like the flavor of magic countering magic, but that is coming at the cost of a really overpowered ability, and isn't actually central to the idea of the race.

Again, if I cap it at +4, then it becomes an orc who trades +2 Wisdom for Large size and becoming an illusionist's plaything. The idea of racial raging is nice, except that this race's alignment is generally lawful evil, so that doesn't work either.

I think the +10 cap is much more balanced, now that it's spread out.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-30, 10:34 PM
Okay, no cap on Suppressed Power now, but it only applies to level up bonuses and size bonuses. So a psychic warrior or cleric earth giant can still get quick boosts to it, but a fighter wearing a belt of giant strength or a barbarian entering his rage doesn't get to exploit it.

Paulcynic
2011-10-01, 12:21 AM
Rewrote mah example to say what I originally meant :P but it seems irrelevant now with your well thought change.

I like this Race! Ima play test him for a few days and then offer some live-play feedback :)

--PC

Cieyrin
2011-10-01, 08:35 AM
Y'know, what if someone applied Large like Raptorans apply flight, starting with effectively Jotunbrood, increase to Powerful Build at 3-5 and finally Large at 7-10, depending on how fast you want to advance 'em. Then you can put features in that aren't power restricters to attempt to balance against it, since by the time you have it, it's not 'throwing off balance'.

Andion Isurand
2011-10-01, 08:50 AM
Y'know, what if someone applied Large like Raptorans apply flight, starting with effectively Jotunbrood, increase to Powerful Build at 3-5 and finally Large at 7-10, depending on how fast you want to advance 'em. Then you can put features in that aren't power restricters to attempt to balance against it, since by the time you have it, it's not 'throwing off balance'.

Or maybe their Jotunbrud, Powerful Build and Large Size can be a set of supernatural abilities that can be turned off and on at will....
...emerging and evolving as HD progresses.

That way they aren't having to change the size/cost of their gear as they grow... given that all their gear could adjust between medium and large along with them as part of their supernatural ability.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-01, 09:52 AM
Y'know, what if someone applied Large like Raptorans apply flight, starting with effectively Jotunbrood, increase to Powerful Build at 3-5 and finally Large at 7-10, depending on how fast you want to advance 'em. Then you can put features in that aren't power restricters to attempt to balance against it, since by the time you have it, it's not 'throwing off balance'.

That's an idea, but it's not what I wanted. I wanted to make a Large size, 0 LA, 0 HD race at level 1.

Paulcynic
2011-10-06, 08:29 PM
Good stuff, I've playtested this race a few times now :) Once in an Arena setting against a Gnome Illusionist, and then again in a couple of combat scenarios. I rolled up a Level 6 Earth Giant Fighter (Pathfinder core book), making him a 2H-weapon build with Suppressed Power in mind. I've also done a thorough DPR analysis of this Race as a lvl 6 Fighter against a lvl 6 Human Fighter.

The Good: The flavor-text provided with this class lent weight to a strong and interesting back story. We went ahead and used the 3.5 rules in regards to Giants not being Humanoid, and that certainly helped in the Arena situation when the Gnome would have cast Hold Person, he was forced to instead cast Hypnotic Pattern. The giant auto-failed the Hypnotic Pattern due to Weakened Will, but at least he wasn't Helpless from the Hold Person spell, and so wasn't vulnerable to coup-de-grace. I'm sorry to say that was about it.

The Meh: Being large size prevented him from using conventional mounts, and he was generally forced to wait outside, as many of our NPC's were 'concerned' that he'd break a chair, knock some of their art off the wall or off its pedestal, squish the cat, etc. Although this is RP fluff, it was a reasonable concern. Enlarge Person (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/enlargePerson.html#enlarge-person) only works on Humanoids, and so this race is not likely to see Size bonuses to Strength. At one point in the Arena, the gnome ran down a 5' wide corridor, and the giant was forced to squeeze (crawling rules) his way forward. This gave the gnome plenty of time to pelt the giant with direct damage.

The Bad: All core races are granted at least a single bonus to one attribute, or two bonuses and a penalty (so one free attribute boost, and then a second boost balanced with another stat being penalized). After stat adjustments, core races then receive at least one useful mechanic, such as Low-light or Darkvision, Elven Immunities, extra skill points, free weapon proficiencies, etc. And then they are likely to get racial enmity bonuses. But not this race, he basically starts with harsh penalties all around. At 4th level, he gets a +1 level bonus to one stat, I put it into Strength, and so got an additional +1 (Suppressed Power bonus). I now had -2, -2, +2 at level 4, where as the other races would have -2, +2, +2, +1 at level 4. So (-4/+2) versus (-2/+5).

Lets look at his useful mechanics on a one for one basis:
Large size allows him to use Large weapons (increased die type), but he suffers a -1 attack penalty. Large size also gives him reach. This is his Major feature, and is the feature you appear to be balancing his other stats against to achieve LA0. Reach can be attained with the Lung (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_lunge) feat by Human characters at level 6. And so Reach is a major advantage for this race from levels 1-5. However, this advantage becomes marginalized at 6 when monsters generally gain Reach attacks as well, and when other races can choose to pick it up. I'm not saying disregard Reach, but it doesn't lend the advantage long enough in the Giant's career to factor it into LA. And so the only apparent advantage he retains is increased damage die types from size, which boils down to a DPR analysis of Large Size and Suppressed power versus a Human's +2 to any Stat and Bonus starting Feat.

Not being Humanoid is great against a few low level spells, but becomes meaningless once 3rd level spells roll around.

DPR Analysis:
Using an Occam's Razor approach, as any feats or items that you give to one can be given to the other. I ran some DPR analysis on this race as a stock Fighter; Tom the Giant #1 assumes that stats are as you've written them and includes the die increase of large weapons. Tom the Human #2 assumes that stats are stock Human and weapons are Medium. These calculations also assume that the target has an AC of 22 (most common high AC for CR 6 critters).

Tom the Giant #1:
Strength 20 (18 plus 1 (lvl 4 bonus) plus 1 (Suppressed Power): +5 Attack, +7 Damage (2-handed Weapon).
Dexterity is 13, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Large Size Falchion does 2D6, with a Crit range of 18-20/x2.
Base Attack Bonus is +6, Large Size causes a -1 Attack penalty.

Total to Attack: +10/+5 (Iterative), Damage is 2D6+7 per hit.
DPR = 10.47, where +1 Attack is worth 1.61 DPR, and +1 Damage is worth 0.74 DPR.

Tom the Human #2:
Strength 20 (17 plus 2 human bonus plus 1 (lvl 4 bonus): +5 Attack, +7 Damage (2-handed Weapon)
Dexterity is 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Regular Size Falchion does 2D4, with a Crit range of 18-20/x2
Base Attack Bonus is +6

Total to Attack: +11/+6 (Iterative), Damage is 2D4+7 per hit.
DPR = 12.08, where +1 Attack is worth 1.61 DPR, and +1 Damage is worth 0.86 DPR.

This shows that Large size is actually a DPR nerf due to the -1 Attack penalty, and if the Human Fighter went against the Giant Fighter, the giant would have a -1 AC penalty as well, further increasing the human fighter's DPR against him (13.69 DPR to be exact).



Overall Analysis:
Being Large-size is actually a nerf, combine that with inferior stat adjustments, automatic failure to Illusion (Disbelief) effects, and then RP consequences for being so different, I didn't find it fun or exciting to play. My fellow players and I were initially excited by the benefits of this Race as a melee striker, but playtesting and DPR analysis have proven this iteration of the Earth Giant to be inadequate. I would put this Race at LA -x as well.

I would say give him a proper racial Stat spread, something like +2 Strength, +2 Con, -2 Intelligence. Not many races grant this combo, and so that would be a nice advantage. Then beef up Suppressed Power, something closer to your original design where any strength bonus granted the boost.

Please Note: Although I have used Pathfinder instead of 3.5, I have stripped away feats, leaving identical mechanics in my analysis as would have been used with 3.5.

Also, I put this time and effort into my analysis because I like the idea of what you've done here :) It needs some work though, so good luck!

--PC

wiimanclassic
2011-10-06, 09:41 PM
Couldn't he take Lung also and thus still have more reach?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-06, 09:56 PM
The Meh: Being large size prevented him from using conventional mounts, and he was generally forced to wait outside, as many of our NPC's were 'concerned' that he'd break a chair, knock some of their art off the wall or off its pedestal, squish the cat, etc. Although this is RP fluff, it was a reasonable concern. Enlarge Person (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/enlargePerson.html#enlarge-person) only works on Humanoids, and so this race is not likely to see Size bonuses to Strength. At one point in the Arena, the gnome ran down a 5' wide corridor, and the giant was forced to squeeze (crawling rules) his way forward. This gave the gnome plenty of time to pelt the giant with direct damage.


Yes, the earth giant is not meant to be an arcane caster. He gains his size increases through other means, such as expansion (Psychic warrior) and righteous might (cleric)



The Bad: All core races are granted at least a single bonus to one attribute, or two bonuses and a penalty (so one free attribute boost, and then a second boost balanced with another stat being penalized). After stat adjustments, core races then receive at least one useful mechanic, such as Low-light or Darkvision, Elven Immunities, extra skill points, free weapon proficiencies, etc. And then they are likely to get racial enmity bonuses. But not this race, he basically starts with harsh penalties all around. At 4th level, he gets a +1 level bonus to one stat, I put it into Strength, and so got an additional +1 (Suppressed Power bonus). I now had -2, -2, +2 at level 4, where as the other races would have -2, +2, +2, +1 at level 4. So (-4/+2) versus (-2/+5).


This cannot be said for 3.5. In 3.5 Core, 2 races receive no boosts or penalties at all (human and half-elf), 1 race receives one boost and two penalties (half-orc) and the rest receive one boost and one penalty.



Lets look at his useful mechanics on a one for one basis:
Large size allows him to use Large weapons (increased die type), but he suffers a -1 attack penalty. Large size also gives him reach. This is his Major feature, and is the feature you appear to be balancing his other stats against to achieve LA0. Reach can be attained with the Lung (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#_lunge) feat by Human characters at level 6. And so Reach is a major advantage for this race from levels 1-5. However, this advantage becomes marginalized at 6 when monsters generally gain Reach attacks as well, and when other races can choose to pick it up. I'm not saying disregard Reach, but it doesn't lend the advantage long enough in the Giant's career to factor it into LA. And so the only apparent advantage he retains is increased damage die types from size, which boils down to a DPR analysis of Large Size and Suppressed power versus a Human's +2 to any Stat and Bonus starting Feat.


Lunge is not a feat in 3.5. The only ways to get reach in 3.5 are to play a Large race (with LA), take Aberrant Blood and Inhuman Reach (which is two feats, and requires you take a -1 to hit, so it's effectively giving you a Large size penalty), or using a reach weapon, which generally doesn't allow you to threaten the surrounding area unless you're using a spiked chain. And while that is an answer, it's only one answer, requires spending a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and an earth giant can pick up a spiked chain and get 15 ft reach instead.



Not being Humanoid is great against a few low level spells, but becomes meaningless once 3rd level spells roll around.


Not true. Dominate Person is a 5th level spell. Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell.



DPR Analysis:
Using an Occam's Razor approach, as any feats or items that you give to one can be given to the other. I ran some DPR analysis on this race as a stock Fighter; Tom the Giant #1 assumes that stats are as you've written them and includes the die increase of large weapons. Tom the Human #2 assumes that stats are stock Human and weapons are Medium. These calculations also assume that the target has an AC of 22 (most common high AC for CR 6 critters).

Tom the Giant #1:
Strength 20 (18 plus 1 (lvl 4 bonus) plus 1 (Suppressed Power): +5 Attack, +7 Damage (2-handed Weapon).
Dexterity is 13, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Large Size Falchion does 2D6, with a Crit range of 18-20/x2.
Base Attack Bonus is +6, Large Size causes a -1 Attack penalty.

Total to Attack: +10/+5 (Iterative), Damage is 2D6+7 per hit.
DPR = 10.47, where +1 Attack is worth 1.61 DPR, and +1 Damage is worth 0.74 DPR.

Tom the Human #2:
Strength 20 (17 plus 2 human bonus plus 1 (lvl 4 bonus): +5 Attack, +7 Damage (2-handed Weapon)
Dexterity is 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.
Regular Size Falchion does 2D4, with a Crit range of 18-20/x2
Base Attack Bonus is +6

Total to Attack: +11/+6 (Iterative), Damage is 2D4+7 per hit.
DPR = 12.08, where +1 Attack is worth 1.61 DPR, and +1 Damage is worth 0.86 DPR.

This shows that Large size is actually a DPR nerf due to the -1 Attack penalty, and if the Human Fighter went against the Giant Fighter, the giant would have a -1 AC penalty as well, further increasing the human fighter's DPR against him (13.69 DPR to be exact).


Humans in 3.5 receive no stat boosts.

Here, let's look at it from 3.5 standards:

Tom the Giant

Strength is 24 ( 18+1 from 4th level, 2 from Size, 3 from Suppressed Power)
Attack Bonus is +9 (-2 Size, +7 Str, +4 BAB)
Damage, using a Greatsword, is 4d6+10 (average of 24)

This is all assuming a 6th level psychic warrior with expansion.

Tom the Human

Strength is 21 (18+1 from 4th level, 2 from size)
Attack bonus is +8 (-1 Size, +5 Str, +4 BAB)
Damage, using a Greatsword, is 3d6+7 (average is 17)

This is all assuming a 6th level psychic warrior with expansion.


See the difference?



Overall Analysis:
Being Large-size is actually a nerf, combine that with inferior stat adjustments, automatic failure to Illusion (Disbelief) effects, and then RP consequences for being so different, I didn't find it fun or exciting to play. My fellow players and I were initially excited by the benefits of this Race as a melee striker, but playtesting and DPR analysis have proven this iteration of the Earth Giant to be inadequate. I would put this Race at LA -x as well.

I would say give him a proper racial Stat spread, something like +2 Strength, +2 Con, -2 Intelligence. Not many races grant this combo, and so that would be a nice advantage. Then beef up Suppressed Power, something closer to your original design where any strength bonus granted the boost.

Please Note: Although I have used Pathfinder instead of 3.5, I have stripped away feats, leaving identical mechanics in my analysis as would have been used with 3.5.

Also, I put this time and effort into my analysis because I like the idea of what you've done here :) It needs some work though, so good luck!

--PC

I think you fail to realize just how different these two systems are. You didn't strip away feats, you pointed out Lunge. Being Large in 3.5 is a much bigger deal than it is in Pathfinder, where the races are stronger and the penalties are rarer.

Additionally, your roleplaying analysis fails to take into account the incredible help Large size gives when making Intimidate checks, as well as interacting with other Giants, who tend to be violent towards humanoids but relatively respectful of one another.

Seerow
2011-10-06, 11:09 PM
Random thought: How would supressed power work with an ability that reduces size? Would you lose twice as much?

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-07, 12:11 AM
Random thought: How would supressed power work with an ability that reduces size? Would you lose twice as much?

RAW? No. It says "increase in Strength from leveling up or Size bonus" so, no, as reducing size inflicts a size penalty. (Though I don't know of any spells that would forcibly inflict a Size Strength penalty other than reduce person. Compression is personal only, though I guess you could use it become Medium, but no, no double penalty)

Paulcynic
2011-10-07, 01:32 AM
Point taken sir :) I haven't played 3.x in about a decade, though that's no excuse for my not researching the differences.

One spot in your favor though, wouldn't your example Tom the Giant gain +6 Suppressed Power? Level 4 bonus is +1, so +2 with SP, and then +2 from Size, so +4 with SP; +6 total. If this is correct, then SP is awesome, and would make this ability worth while, as your example clearly shows.

Though being Huge is a major concern for me, both as player and GM, as the majority of Interior-environments wouldn't allow for Huge size combat. Situationally speaking, your example Tom the Human would have greater DPR under these circumstances as Tom the Giant would be forced not to grow in size, and so can't count neigh-on 6 points in bonus Strength (2 Size, 4 Suppressed Power). That would knock his to-hit down to only +6, his die type to 3D6 and his Static Damage to only +7. Tom the Human would have a 10% greater chance to hit and the same average weapon damage.

I do not feel that the auto-fail to Will (Disbelief) needs to be there, as there are powerful illusions that cause Instant Death on a failed Disbelief, such as Phantasmal Killer. Granted he get's a Fortitude save, but its still and Illusion and so he suffers a -4 save penalty. He's basically leaning toward death here.

I'm happy to have been wrong in using Pathfinder rules, I will be more thorough and thoughtful from here on.

And my apologies, I meant DPR analysis not Overall... what a difference one omitted word can make :P

I will take the RP rebuke in stride, though I think our problem with his size in everyday life situations among medium-sized peoples is a persistent downer and so is quite significant; but I do agree that Giant-diplomacy is a nice feature, though not exactly as common of an issue. Either way, RP fluff is RP fluff, and it can all be worked out.

Over all, I'm impressed with how he has shapened up since your OP, he's almost there :)

--PC

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-07, 02:09 AM
Point taken sir :) I haven't played 3.x in about a decade, though that's no excuse for my not researching the differences.

One spot in your favor though, wouldn't your example Tom the Giant gain +6 Suppressed Power? Level 4 bonus is +1, so +2 with SP, and then +2 from Size, so +4 with SP; +6 total. If this is correct, then SP is awesome, and would make this ability worth while, as your example clearly shows.


Er, no. Suppressed Power doubles the bonus itself, it doesn't double then stack. (+1 becomes +2, it doesn't give you +2 in addition to the +1)



Though being Huge is a major concern for me, both as player and GM, as the majority of Interior-environments wouldn't allow for Huge size combat. Situationally speaking, your example Tom the Human would have greater DPR under these circumstances as Tom the Giant would be forced not to grow in size, and so can't count neigh-on 6 points in bonus Strength (2 Size, 4 Suppressed Power). That would knock his to-hit down to only +6, his die type to 3D6 and his Static Damage to only +7. Tom the Human would have a 10% greater chance to hit and the same average weapon damage.


If you're fighting a Huge or larger enemy, which the majority of later level creatures are, they need space, so you get space as well. At 1st-4th level, if you're fighting indoors with goblins and humans, sure. Stay Large. You still deal more damage and have longer reach (and grapple better).

Once you become Huge, your natural reach extends to 15 ft (20 ft with a spiked chain) which makes you an attack of opportunity powerhouse. With that +4 Size bonus to Strength and a nice damage dice weapon, you'll be crushing your foes with ease before they even get up to you for an attack.

Additionally, an earth giant monk is able to achieve larger unarmed damage with relative ease. (Taking Tashlatora (Secrets of Sarlona) and going psychic warrior, then manifesting expansion and augmenting it to become Gargantuan would give a monk 2/psychic warrior 9 a grand total of 4d8 damage with his unarmed strike, 6d8 if he has Improved Natural Attack)



I do not feel that the auto-fail to Will (Disbelief) needs to be there, as there are powerful illusions that cause Instant Death on a failed Disbelief, such as Phantasmal Killer. Granted he get's a Fortitude save, but its still and Illusion and so he suffers a -4 save penalty. He's basically leaning toward death here.


This has been pointed out to me, however, this is the only illusion save-or-die spell. And it is often considered to be a terrible spell, basically known as phantasmal rogue killer, as only rogues have a tendency to fail both saves.

The rest of the illusion spells are rather potent, but not life-threatening. It really comes down to "Yes, you could easily die if your DM was enough of a jerk to use this spell on you". This is the same logic that makes a wizard vulnerable if a DM destroys his spellbook. And yet, very rarely do I hear of a DM actually doing that, in the same way I rarely hear of a DM nuking a cleric's holy symbol.

In fact, in my personal experience, not one of my DMs has ever actually cast a save-or-die spell on any one of our party's characters, regardless of whether our enemies were capable of using them or not. Save-or-dies aren't fun for the party. Especially when you're level 7 and there's no chance of raise dead.

Don't get me wrong, you raise a valid point, for NPCs and enemies. But unlike the PCs, the NPCs are all run by a person who wants to keep you happy and entertained, while challenged. The weakness to illusions is easily exploitable, but I pity you if you're actually playing with a DM who would use it to kill your character.



I'm happy to have been wrong in using Pathfinder rules, I will be more thorough and thoughtful from here on.


If you'd like, I can post a Pathfinder version of the Earth Giant for you to PEACH. :smallsmile:



And my apologies, I meant DPR analysis not Overall... what a difference one omitted word can make :P

I will take the RP rebuke in stride, though I think our problem with his size in everyday life situations among medium-sized peoples is a persistent downer and so is quite significant; but I do agree that Giant-diplomacy is a nice feature, though not exactly as common of an issue. Either way, RP fluff is RP fluff, and it can all be worked out.

Over all, I'm impressed with how he has shapened up since your OP, he's almost there :)

--PC

Actually, in 3.5 there's a rule specifically stating that a creature receives a bonus to its Intimidate check for each size category it is larger than its target. +4 for each size category larger, in fact. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm)

As Intimidate can be used to demoralize in combat, as well as to shake people out of combat, it's a very potent tool for a thug-like character to have.

As for the Giant-diplomacy, well, consider this:

A normal party meets a group of Giants who have moved into a neighboring mountain and are currently terrorizing the populace. The normal party tries to resolve things peacefully, though even with a well-rolled Diplomacy check, it is most likely these beings will not be persuaded, and it turns into an inevitable brawl that results in you having to kill them all off. Typical giant encounter. What you'd expect.

Meanwhile, if the same party, but with an earth giant bard instead of a human bard encounters the giants, the earth giant makes a skilled Diplomacy check, and because of A) his ability to speak Giant (crap, forgot languages. Gotta go back and add those in now XD) and B) his racial circumstance bonus (which doesn't exist mechanically speaking, but as a DM I for one would allow it), the giants listen to his words. Not only does the earth giant manage to set up a peaceful trade route with the town, exchanging livestock for treasure which benefits both parties, but now you have a village of giants as your allies.

It's fun, I like to think, what a choice of race can do for a game.

absolmorph
2011-10-07, 03:42 AM
Powerful Build is often considered just cause for LA +1 by itself. Actual Large size is even more powerful.
I would just like to point something out: Powerful Build is all the benefits of Large size, except reach, with no penalties. You get bonuses to Intimidate and opposed Strength rolls, and you can use Large weapons. However, your AC and attack bonus are unimpeded, you only need a 5-foot space, and so on.

EDIT: Other than that, I'd say this is a rather well-made race. The penalties are a bit harsh, but they're a pretty close fit to the bonuses.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-07, 03:50 AM
I would just like to point something out: Powerful Build is all the benefits of Large size, except reach, with no penalties. You get bonuses to Intimidate and opposed Strength rolls, and you can use Large weapons. However, your AC and attack bonus are unimpeded, you only need a 5-foot space, and so on.

EDIT: Other than that, I'd say this is a rather well-made race. The penalties are a bit harsh, but they're a pretty close fit to the bonuses.

Large size is clearly superior to Powerful Build. You get reach, and more importantly, it stacks with actual size increases. If a goliath Mountain Rages, he gets no additional damage, his reach improves slightly, but he gets no bonuses to grapple, or anything like that.

Meanwhile, if an earth giant casts righteous might, he grows to Huge size, has 15 ft reach, gains additional damage dice, and even better bonuses to grapple, trip and Intimidate.

So in short, Powerful Build is better for low level characters and short-sighted builds. You need more damage, or a small bonus to Grapple? Great. Save yourself the enlarge person and be a goliath.

But if you actually want to be an enormous creature? Big enough to wrestle with dragons and tower over titans? You start out large and you work your way up, pun very much intended. Large is much better than Powerful Build.

stack
2011-10-07, 12:04 PM
Interestingly, Paizo has released a playtest of a race-building guide, using point-buy for various factors. Obviously it is intended for the slightly more powerful pathfinder racial average and lacks an options for weakness to gnomes, but could be helpful regardless.

Type: Humanoid
Subtype: Giant
Size large (7 points)
standard language array (1 point)
Paragon Modifiers (2 points): Members of this race gain
+4 in a single ability score, and 2 to all ability scores
in either all physical or all mental ability scores. If the
bonus is in a single physical ability score, the penalties
apply to all mental ability scores, and vice versa.
Defensive training (lesser) (1 point) Prerequisites: None;
Benefit: Choose one subtype of humanoid. Members of
this race gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against humanoids
of the chosen type.
Reach (1 point) (large size does not grant the increased reach without taking this)

That gets you to 8 points, with 10 points the bar for normal races. However, reach is an "advanced" ability, so would be unselectable by a "standard" race. It provides a grounds for discussion anyway, take it for what it's worth.

NeoSeraphi
2011-10-07, 12:13 PM
Interestingly, Paizo has released a playtest of a race-building guide, using point-buy for various factors. Obviously it is intended for the slightly more powerful pathfinder racial average and lacks an options for weakness to gnomes, but could be helpful regardless.

Type: Humanoid
Subtype: Giant
Size large (7 points)
standard language array (1 point)
Paragon Modifiers (2 points): Members of this race gain
+4 in a single ability score, and 2 to all ability scores
in either all physical or all mental ability scores. If the
bonus is in a single physical ability score, the penalties
apply to all mental ability scores, and vice versa.
Defensive training (lesser) (1 point) Prerequisites: None;
Benefit: Choose one subtype of humanoid. Members of
this race gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against humanoids
of the chosen type.
Reach (1 point) (large size does not grant the increased reach without taking this)

That gets you to 8 points, with 10 points the bar for normal races. However, reach is an "advanced" ability, so would be unselectable by a "standard" race. It provides a grounds for discussion anyway, take it for what it's worth.

Okay, so it's exactly like what I have now, except I trade +2 Wisdom for -4 Strength, and balance it against the weaker 3.5 races, with a few penalties thrown in as well.

I'm pretty satisfied with that.

Seerow
2011-10-07, 01:42 PM
Interestingly, Paizo has released a playtest of a race-building guide, using point-buy for various factors. Obviously it is intended for the slightly more powerful pathfinder racial average and lacks an options for weakness to gnomes, but could be helpful regardless.

Type: Humanoid
Subtype: Giant
Size large (7 points)
standard language array (1 point)
Paragon Modifiers (2 points): Members of this race gain
+4 in a single ability score, and 2 to all ability scores
in either all physical or all mental ability scores. If the
bonus is in a single physical ability score, the penalties
apply to all mental ability scores, and vice versa.
Defensive training (lesser) (1 point) Prerequisites: None;
Benefit: Choose one subtype of humanoid. Members of
this race gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against humanoids
of the chosen type.
Reach (1 point) (large size does not grant the increased reach without taking this)

That gets you to 8 points, with 10 points the bar for normal races. However, reach is an "advanced" ability, so would be unselectable by a "standard" race. It provides a grounds for discussion anyway, take it for what it's worth.


I didn't even read what you put together because Paizo's race point system is a pretty big steaming pile of crap, and calling anything balanced or not balanced based on it is pretty stupid. There's been pages of discussion on it elsewhere, and it basically boils down to Pathfinder being more concerned with proving their own races were balanced than they were with making an actually balanced subsystem.

We're talking about a system that values +4 to 1 stat and -2 to 2 other stats doesn't actually cost you any points but actually gives you points back. A system where getting a flat +2 to a stat with no penalties costs more than sr11+level. Or where a +4 bonus to two skills is worth 3 times as much as said spell resistance. The skill bonuses were made that expensive pretty much just so they could say that goblins are in fact a balanced race.

Seriously go look at the goblin entry. Everything they had except the skill bonus added up to 2 points, so they said "**** it make those skill bonuses worth 8 points. Tell me with a straight face +4 to stealth/ride is worth more than at will alter self, SR11+level, +4 to an attribute, or becoming large and gaining reach. Or any other options in that book.


Anyway, point is that system is not balanced in the least, and trying to use it to judge balance positively or negatively is a pretty bad idea.

stack
2011-10-07, 01:52 PM
I agree that the system needs a great deal of work, especially in the skills area, and that numbers were blatantly fudged so base races added up to 10. In this case though, we are looking only at the value of large size and the stat mods, with the defense training thrown in, so it can at least serve as a numerical starting point for a discussion.

Paulcynic
2011-10-07, 02:11 PM
Lets hope that our collective Venom and Fury over their RAW beta will inspire them to stop placing so much value on skills over combat mechanics :) They took in the advice and observations of their player base when constructing the Core book, which turned into a tailored product of fun and awesomeness. I have faith that this beta will yield a similar result.

Neo :) You're awesome dude, love the Pathfinder Version, we're going to check it out tonight at the gaming shop in some Arenas. Mebe I'll killz the Gnome this time?

Tom the Giant is a well thought, well balanced 3.5 LA0 Race. Mission accomplished :)

--PC

Oh, and those GM's that do use Save or Die, or who force you to make swim checks to cross a slow moving river, you roll a natural 1 and so you drown... those guys have all moved on to World of Warcraft, and can be seen HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSAjq3gKKp8) :P

LibrarianHuntar
2012-02-28, 10:35 AM
Actually, yes. The Xvart, from Dragon 339 (I think), has a -2 Level Adjustment. However, there were no rules presented to explain how this works.

This is secondhand knowledge on my part and any or all of it may be incorrect.

Nope, level adjustment 0