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View Full Version : I think I angered my group



Akisa
2011-08-12, 07:08 PM
I think to understand why my group might be upset is know a little bit about my group and setting. We have been gaming together for 8 years now with us rotating dm in this "alternate Star Wars setting" set in our world. Which basically means Star Wars was a cover story ancient alien technology found near Roswell to discredit anyone claiming to see any reversed engineered the technology, even fighters like the X-wing flying in the air. Although every time we play we advance the years since the first discovery the Ancients and currently I advance the game 30 years from the previous campaign which brings it to the 200 years after the first campaign (which I ran).


Every time we DM this setting the "home" ship was the Atlantis, and being the ship that the PC use, it naturally becomes the ship that is the most famous and deadly ship of the fleet despite being now "ancient". It has become a running gag that every time we start a campaign the ship is being decommissioned for being too costly to retrofit for new technologies the BBEG (Big Bad Enemy Group/Girl/Guy) starts a war just as the ship becomes or being retired. With the last campaign they were going to put the ship as museum similar to the USS Constitution is museum but is still a Commission ship.

So I started the Campaign where the original Sith (there are only human or near humans in the setting, and there were Original Sith and New Sith who followed the old teachings of Holocrons left behind when Original Sith disappeared. ) being the new BBEG. The Original Sith had sent spies to study the galaxy that the Republic err Federation has set up in the ruins of the ancients. So being that the Atlantis is a ship of destiny and strong connection to the light side of the force, I opt for them to conduct pearl harbor style attack as their reveal to the known galaxy to destroy the Atlantis. So I had the PC be stationed near the port and have them respond to the attack only to arrive the ship was already destroyed.

It seemed everyone was clearly upset they couldn't do anything about it, one of them was upset he couldn't DM the Atlantis on his next turn. It apparently bothered them so bad they didn't want to play anymore (they now want to play a D&D game now with someone else as the dm).

Did I go to far over board with my decision of having the Atlant is destroyed? Should I recont the destruction? (Edit the game hasn't started yet).

beyond reality
2011-08-12, 07:14 PM
With eight years of emotional investment...yeah I can see that rubbing people the wrong way. There are a variety of ways that it might have been handled (perhaps discussing ahead of time what the players are comfortable with being changed or lost, or making the survival of the ship dependent on player action), but seeing as it's already been done that's not much help.

Really, just ask your group. Apologize, tell them truthfully that you made a mistake and see if there's a way to salvage the situation. Perhaps have the ship rebuilt, or repaired. Perhaps an adventure based around finding the ships original blueprints.

Drachasor
2011-08-12, 07:17 PM
Ok, it is important for them to keep this principle in mind for the future: The First Law of Resurrection. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FirstLawOfResurrection) This applies to ships too.

So you or someone in the future could bring the ship back, if desired. Dozens of ways to do that, really. A new version could be built, a fake version that is switched using a one-shot time travel device, a fake was destroyed and the real one is fine, a sister ship is found, etc, etc.

Obviously you wanted to start things off with a darker tone. You should explain that to the group and ask them if that's ok for your run. Kind of like the Empire Strikes Back where a bunch of bad stuff goes down (but your campaign probably won't end on such a downer).

Jeraa
2011-08-12, 08:08 PM
The Japanese battleship Yamato was sunk during WW2. That didn't stop them from rebuilding it and bringing it back in StarBlazers.

So just because the groups favorite ship was destroyed, doesn't mean it can't be fixed and put back into service. It also gives an excuse to update/upgrade/add stuff to the ship the group wants. "Our ship really needs an X". Well, now it can have one.

Also, if the ship was all that could keep the enemy from overwhelming the good guys, even better. Have the bad guys get close to winning, then when all hope is lost for the good guys, the ship (now fully repaired and refitted), makes its triumphant return and turns the tide of battle. Hope is restored, everyone cheers.

Acanous
2011-08-12, 08:15 PM
As a DM, it is your perogative to destroy player resources.

This gives them a good reason why their new characters do not start with a starship. Roleplaying lv 1-5 trying to rebuild that starship will give them a good reason to have it.

The sith bombing a well-known, easilly idenifiable, stationary target is sensical and good strategy on their part.

Your reasoning is fine. The emotional attatchment of the players is something you were banking on- they SHOULD feel bad that the ship was destroyed, this is why they should hate the Sith.

Now, due to rotating DMs, other DMs are mad at you for blowing up an easy plot device. explain to them that the campaign you are running will have the players build a new one/restore the old one. They'll get the shiny back, they just have to work for it.

Cerlis
2011-08-12, 08:44 PM
I really see it as no more big a deal than killing off a favored NPC. its suppose to be dramatic. and it happens. And you are suppose to role with it. I dont hear of DMs asking players if this is ok or that is ok allt he time. Its usually just if it directly involves their character. For instance you wouldnt wisk a character away and force Lore of torture and slavery on them without their consent cus that would be a violation of their character and thus them.

I think the problem is that though the setting is earth, that the focus was the ship and with it "destroyed" its like in other movies , th eplanet getting destroyed. Thats the end of the season or series, and we lost.

it would be if like...The writers Destroyed Atlantis in Stargate Atlantis. That is the whole premise of that series, that would be something they'd do at the end. and for the sake of the fans they might do...something to soften the blow after conflict is over (such as sister ship, or it can be salavaged, type of deal)

What i'd do is write an In character Email to each of them (stating to contact their allies before they agree to the mission) from a commander of yours telling how yall have recieved intel that the sith have taken the wreckage of the Atlantis and with their dark powers seek to unlock technology in the ship that has never been awakened. And the commander wants them to sneak in and stop them. I think a climatic battle where they fight through an army, where the final showdown is to get into the control room of the atlantis and fire its main guns on the main structure of the sith base infrastructure, foiling their plans and starting a new adventure in space or something would be awesome.

I emphasis the fact that this would be an email that proposes the generic (but not plot revealing) adventure to the characters, without seeming like you are babying them, and it is their choice. Maybe put a little Note to the reader at the end outright saying how you dont want to get individual peoples hopes up or force anyone into anything, but you think your idea (the better idea of yours that may or may not be inspired by what i say here, not claiming my idea is genius) is a good one and if they-as a group- want to play it then yall can do it.

gibbo88
2011-08-12, 09:50 PM
I can understand their annoyance at loosing such a big piece of the setting in one fell swoop, but it would be the same as having their items taken. Perhaps it would have been better if they lost it only by not successfully saving the ship, not by something that might seem like railroading.

Give them the chance to earn it back, like any other item they want and definately don't just give it back, I've had dms do that before.

hustlertwo
2011-08-12, 10:23 PM
You should have given them a chance to save it, even if it was a slim one. I'll wager they'd be nowhere near as ticked if they'd been able to participate in the fight, even if it was still destroyed.

Sipex
2011-08-15, 10:33 AM
While you can't do anything to save it now, see how the players will respond to a 'rebuild the Atlantis' quest. Maybe make it so they can hunt down some key parts from the ship from the debris (anything which they have particular emotional attachment to) and the original blue prints.

Toofey
2011-08-15, 11:01 AM
I Vote for taking the movie route and have it's destruction cause some super rich people to build a new unrealistically overpowered ship incorporating elements from the reverse engineered rubble.

If you can turn that anger into positive emotion would make the good side even better. As a writer I think even invoking that attachment to the ship is a sign of success, I don't think you should turn back.

prufock
2011-08-15, 11:42 AM
I don't mind the idea of the ship being attacked and destroyed. What bothers me a little is that they had no say in it at all. They were invested in this ship, and they didn't even get the chance to defend it.

That said, even if they were defending it, I still would have had it destroyed. Just because they're there doesn't mean they aren't outmatched.

I think the fact that you struck a big blow and caused intense emotional responses is a GOOD thing. Quitting because they're upset is not a good thing.Did they expect the ship to never suffer a loss or something? That's foolish.

As others have said, it isn't the end. If the ship wasn't disintegrated, it can be rebuilt. You could even build the campaign around rebuilding it, and have the final showdown as the ship vs. whomever was in charge of the first attack.

leakingpen
2011-08-15, 01:03 PM
As a DM, it is your perogative to destroy player resources.

This gives them a good reason why their new characters do not start with a starship. Roleplaying lv 1-5 trying to rebuild that starship will give them a good reason to have it.

The sith bombing a well-known, easilly idenifiable, stationary target is sensical and good strategy on their part.

Your reasoning is fine. The emotional attatchment of the players is something you were banking on- they SHOULD feel bad that the ship was destroyed, this is why they should hate the Sith.

Now, due to rotating DMs, other DMs are mad at you for blowing up an easy plot device. explain to them that the campaign you are running will have the players build a new one/restore the old one. They'll get the shiny back, they just have to work for it.

This. It was a perfectly reasonable plot point in my mind.

Sipex
2011-08-15, 01:08 PM
You know, I didn't agree with that point beforehand but now that I've had time to think on it, yeah, he's right.

It's still bad that the PCs didn't at least feel like they had a chance but giving up because something really bad happened and being upset with you is a bad move on their part. They should really be directing that anger in game towards the Sith.

Aldizog
2011-08-15, 03:10 PM
It sounds like you killed a beloved NPC, destroyed the PCs' prized possession, and wrecked a part of the setting that they enjoy both as players and DMs, all in one moment that the PCs couldn't affect. A ship like Enterprise is a BIG deal in a story, for both the characters and the fans. You also have an ongoing serial and went for the Big Shocking Development, which sometimes, not always, is a sign the series has jumped the shark and is desperate for gimmicks to get attention.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have done it, but having the ship either crippled (possibly with some sort of virus that starts small and grows worse over time) or captured by the Sith would also have been options that would also have allowed for stories that maybe would have been more acceptable kickoffs to your players. But, yeah, as others have suggested, it has to get rebuilt if it is that central a part of the campaign.

Sarone
2011-08-15, 06:48 PM
Yeah, it sucks if the group was so attached to the ship, but at the same time, it was going on how many years? Even a ship like the Galactica was starting feel her age.

Basically, continue with the idea it was destroyed. But, due to some weird twist of fate or some such, the ship gets salvaged and brought back up to code. Better elctronics, stronger shield, faster engines, deadlier weapons, and so on.

Make it where the ship, while the old one is gone, is still there. Maybe even have it where there's some neat secrets that was hinted to in a past session that come to light. Maybe a former crewmember(s) that was working on it way back when has a descendent(s) serving on the ship.

The thing is, you can still take the ship, but have it where it isn't quite so dark. Mayeb the BBEG wanted to have that ship taken out by having his elite shipkiller squadron go in and kill it while it was on a decommisioning or some such.

At least, that's my take on it.

Hell, that was something I was thinking about.

DontEatRawHagis
2011-08-15, 08:10 PM
If destroying the ship destroyed their interest in continuing the game and there is no way of recouping the loses, I weep for you.

I'm surprised the ship wasn't destroyed before. Though I am speaking without a lot of the prior knowledge, maybe you should try and bring them back to the game some way.

Don't retcon the Atlantis back, it is dead. It has lasted 200 years, and there is no way a ship could have backwards compatibility like that. Time to bring out a new ship, but try not to change it too much from the old Atlantis.

Possiblities:

Maybe make it the same design as the Atlantis, but slightly newer, yet still old.
Introduce the characters to their new ship by allowing them to pick it. Have them find themselves stranded somewhere in a ship graveyard.
The ship should not have all the bells and whistles. Maybe it still has some obsolete parts.
The ship could use a bit of DIY.


Try to make this new ship something that the players can make their own again. I don't know, if they can't get back into a universe because of the Atlantis, maybe you should start the DND campaign with them on a slave ship called the Atlantis and allow them to mutiny and take it back.

askandarion
2011-08-16, 09:40 AM
You destroyed a major aspect of this long-running game, being used by OTHER DMs as well. If it was just your game, while I'd be pissed too, I'd also feel you'd have more... authority?... to do so. But from what you described, this was more of a shared, communal resource, and a touchpoint connecting the various games. Typically such changes to the setting should be discussed beforehand with other DMs (that's typically how it was done in my groups when we had rotating DMs, and in fact our first version fell apart because everyone wanted to surprise the others with their changes, so everyone's plans kept being screwed over by constant earthquakes, apocalypses, etc.)

Not everyone plays the same way. Some (as shown in this thread) see it as perfectly normal to destroy everything people hold dear for the sake of drama (yes, that's hyperbole). Others (as also shown in this thread) feel some things should be sacrosanct. The hard part is not causing an emotional reaction, but causing an acceptable emotional reaction. Some think you should be able to violate the players however you wish and they should just take it (yep, still hyperbole). Others disagree, and in this case it was your players. The emotional reaction in this case was rejection, because hey, this stuff does hurt. Some people want a chance to fix or prevent bad things, not have to react to painful setbacks they couldn't even have affected.

My question is, now that you have a better idea of what they'd be willing to accept, are you still WILLING to run this game? Are you willing to adapt any for their play style, and are they willing to adapt any for yours? Not everyone wants a darker game. Not everyone wants Status Quo is God. Once you've figured out if you'd still be willing to run, if any level of compromise could be reached, then you could discuss with the others the best course of action. (I recommend time-travel!)

In my personal experience, the typical reaction for players of your group's style to heavy losses of emotionally invested aspects is rejection- with cases like that, it's typically better to give a warning beforehand out-of-game, so they can have a better chance of seeing things with more emotional distance and your perspective, instead of a knee-jerk reaction. Not for everything, but obviously for something so tied up with the very concept of the game.

SilverSheriff
2011-08-17, 08:21 AM
Akisa, You have 2 in-game options:

Option 1 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeCanRebuildHim).
Option 2 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeyWimeyBall).

Choose wisely.

Eric Tolle
2011-08-17, 09:29 AM
Unlike the others, I'm not going to give advice on how to save the game, since you've done the equivalent of "you're playing superheroes defending Earth? Well you wake up with Earth destroyed!"Games are delicate things, and it's near impossible to rebuild them soundly after being broken.

My advice is to apologize, and enjoy the new D&D game.

Sebastrd
2011-08-17, 10:50 AM
Your group has every right to be pissed at you. Simply put, the Atlantis wasn't yours to destroy. It was an object of extreme emotional attachment in a world shared among DMs. The icing on the cake is that you just arbitrarily removed it from the game without giving them a chance to intervene.

There really isn't much you can do at this point other than learn from your mistake and hope things will calm down after a week or two.

Icestorm245
2011-08-17, 04:11 PM
You are the one who introduced the Atlantis, were you not? As it's creator, you have the right to do what you will with it (just don't use this logic in parenting!). The destruction of it could have been better, perhaps as an epic battle on the Atlantis itself which the players had no choice but to Abandon the ship in the end. So the decision was to abandon it or die with it's destruction (Captain Picard had to do it). This way the choice is more in their power but in the end the result is the same. Simply outright destroying something they couldn't even fight for is more aggrivating than losing a battle for it. But that's just me.

Akisa
2011-08-18, 03:10 PM
Well it turns out I interpreted their e-mails a little over the top, that or they calmed down. Right now most want to get away from scifi setting and do a little bit of DnD. So after a month it'll be rotating weekly between two campaigns with DnD and Sith hunting.

Sarone
2011-08-18, 03:54 PM
You are the one who introduced the Atlantis, were you not? As it's creator, you have the right to do what you will with it (just don't use this logic in parenting!). The destruction of it could have been better, perhaps as an epic battle on the Atlantis itself which the players had no choice but to Abandon the ship in the end. So the decision was to abandon it or die with it's destruction (Captain Picard had to do it). This way the choice is more in their power but in the end the result is the same. Simply outright destroying something they couldn't even fight for is more aggrivating than losing a battle for it. But that's just me.

Commander Adama with the Pegasus and the SG-1 Team with Prometheous are also in there. Captain Sparrow and Black Pearl as well to an extent.

Anyone else can come up witha good example of favored ships being destroyed?

Force
2011-08-18, 04:14 PM
I would say that my suspension of disbelief would be stretched enough by having a two hundred-year-old ship be the hero's flagship, unless there were very good plot reasons. An example might be Stargate, in which the titular city-ship Atlantis (if fully armed) was easily a match for modern vessels simply because the precursors who built is were more technologically advanced than all modern-day civilizations and undoubtedly endowed the ship with self-repair mechanisms. But if this is a ship that was built by an evolving civilization that is continuing to advance scientifically and has not suffered a loss of knowledge... well... put it this way.

This is a ship built a little over 200 years ago, in 1799:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/US_Navy_101021-N-7642M-317_USS_Constitution_returns_to_her_pier_after_an_ underway_to_celebrate_her_213th_launching_day_anni versary.jpg

This is a modern warship built in 1975 (large image):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/USS_Nimitz_%28CVN-68%29.jpg

Acanous
2011-08-18, 07:00 PM
Heck, even the second image is of a warship that is ALSO beginning to feel it's age (36 years old already). There's newer, bigger, meaner things being pumped out.

With Rail guns.

Serious.

holywhippet
2011-08-18, 08:28 PM
Having stuff die or be destroyed offscreen isn't really a fun thing - and that's what RPGs are meant to be about. It would be like a D&D campaign where your castle is totally destroyed by an earthquake or hurricane while you are off fighting vampires. You had no control over it, and you've lost out on something because of DM fiat.

I'd have given the players a chance to fight with the ship but go out in a blaze of glory. Give them an impossible battle to win, but have them need to fight to buy time for others to flee. When the ship is near destroyed they can hit the escape pods.

druid91
2011-08-18, 08:43 PM
Having stuff die or be destroyed offscreen isn't really a fun thing - and that's what RPGs are meant to be about. It would be like a D&D campaign where your castle is totally destroyed by an earthquake or hurricane while you are off fighting vampires. You had no control over it, and you've lost out on something because of DM fiat.

I'd have given the players a chance to fight with the ship but go out in a blaze of glory. Give them an impossible battle to win, but have them need to fight to buy time for others to flee. When the ship is near destroyed they can hit the escape pods.

The problem with that is that it gives them a choice. This was from what I can tell a dramatic thing that was meant to get them riled up at these guys.

"Oh blow up my ship? You know what's gonna happen right... I'm gonna rebuild it, then I'm gonna use it to kill you dead!!"

Acanous
2011-08-18, 09:33 PM
the thing about involving the players in the fight, is that it would lead to TPK.
How many players do you know that will flee from an enemy, rather than hope that one last shot/spell/power finishes them off? Adventurers are *Suicidal*, and there's at LEAST one guy in every group that will be all "C'mon guys, we can take 'em!"
and if ONE party member stays, the rest are obligated to stay with them and fight the bad guys, which then forces the DM to either make it a winnable encounter, or TPK the PCs.

If a campaign opened up like "You're all on duty at a military museum, when Aliens attack!", what's the likelihood you'd be rolling up a new character by the end of the session?

Further; if the campaign opened with a TPK, which ALSO killed the ship, the players would be DOUBLY angry. ("You sicced an unfair encounter on us!" added to "You killed our ship!")

druid91
2011-08-18, 10:11 PM
the thing about involving the players in the fight, is that it would lead to TPK.
How many players do you know that will flee from an enemy, rather than hope that one last shot/spell/power finishes them off? Adventurers are *Suicidal*, and there's at LEAST one guy in every group that will be all "C'mon guys, we can take 'em!"
and if ONE party member stays, the rest are obligated to stay with them and fight the bad guys, which then forces the DM to either make it a winnable encounter, or TPK the PCs.

If a campaign opened up like "You're all on duty at a military museum, when Aliens attack!", what's the likelihood you'd be rolling up a new character by the end of the session?

Further; if the campaign opened with a TPK, which ALSO killed the ship, the players would be DOUBLY angry. ("You sicced an unfair encounter on us!" added to "You killed our ship!")

Though one way it could be done is the ship is destroyed and they crash land on the planet in it's flaming hulk...