3.5 Superheroes

[Crasical]

The wizard is 'Batman'. He or she carefully prepares their spells ahead of time, and can have a great breadth of ability, up to and including a utility belt of spells to bypass any encounter if they prepare themselves wisely.

So, on the other hand, we have the Sorcerer. They -don't- carefully prepare their spells. They're born into the world and suddenly develop magical abilities, and then... Well, they can create fields of force, grow claws and shred their enemies, shoot beams of destructive energy from their eyes, and harden their skin to impenetrability. Eventually they manage to control their abilities, and become great heroes, or villains.... And it's also possible to have a relatively good themed set of spells for what your sorcerer can do.

So, Sorcerers are pretty much the X-Men.
How can I manufacture some spandex in 3.5 for my next character?

[Greenish]

How can I manufacture some spandex in 3.5 for my next character?Psychoactive skins of EPH and MIC are skin-tight and come in bright colours.

[Crasical]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/Crasical/RPG%20stuff/PsychoactiveSkin.png

.. The Chromatic Claw-Man! Hooray!

[Jalor]

A heavily optimized Shadowcraft Mage is more or less the Green Lantern; his powers involve creating things out of solid light/shadow, and his versatility is limited only by his imagination.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, anything Tier 3 and up is pretty much a superhero by default... along with some specific Tier 4's..

[Kaje]

Warforged warlock is Iron Man. If you really want you can give up 2 caser levels to be a human warlock/renegade mastermaker.

[Crasical]

Yea, anything Tier 3 and up is pretty much a superhero by default... along with some specific Tier 4's..

So it's pretty much the fact that players need gold to fuel their ascent to power that prevents a party of standard adventurers from donning alternate identities and righting wrongs in the world as masked vigilantes instead of working as for-hire mercenaries?

[Eldariel]

So it's pretty much the fact that players need gold to fuel their ascent to power that prevents a party of standard adventurers from donning alternate identities and righting wrongs in the world as masked vigilantes instead of working as for-hire mercenaries?

It's mostly that making up alternate identities is pretty counterproductive when your real identity is a nobody at the start too and eventually becomes your hero identity. With Disguise Self/Alter Self you could most certainly go on a latex heroism spree with very little effort, though.

[NNescio]

Dwarven Defender = Stone Boy

(Same weakness and can be defeated by walking briskly away.)

[agahii]

whos superman?

[Hiro Protagonest]

whos superman?

A sorcerer with some obscure templates.

Captain America's a cleric who uses Divine Power and Bear's Endurance (as well as extended and/or DMM: persisted versions).

[Eldariel]

whos superman?

Invulnerable, obscenely strong, obscenely fast, flying man with laser eyes? Sounds like Twice-Betrayer calibre (DMM: Persist everything with Ocular & Reach) Codzilla with pre-errata persistent Footsteps of the Divine to me.

[Kaje]

A sorcerer with some obscure templates.

Captain America's a cleric who uses Divine Power and Bear's Endurance (as well as extended and/or DMM: persisted versions).

Nah, Cap's a crusader/warblade dip/bloodstorm blade so he can throw a shield bash.

EDIT: The Hulk is an odd one. Human artificer 2 or factotum 2 or human paragon 2 / stoneblessed 3 / mountain rage barbarian X / war hulk X.

[Kyuu Himura]

So Daredevil is a Warblade/Swordsage/Bloodstorm Blade with Hunter's Senses and Hearing the Air??

Spider-man could be a Rogue/Artificer with perform: lame one-liners maximized.

What about Deadpool and Squirrel Girl??

[Drachasor]

whos superman?

Superman is a mega-gestalt of all Tier 3 classes and below that AREN'T casters and the Warlock...I think.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Just something funny I rememebered

Iron Man = Warforged+Warlcok

Tony Stark= Human + Artificer :smallbiggrin:

hmmm

Flash is Chuck E. Cheese (before the errata killed it)

[TwylyghT]

Puck = Dwarf, Monk/Acrobat

Wendigo = Barbarian/Bear warrior

Taskmaster = Gestalt Monk/Fighter + Factotem

Hawkeye = Scout

Wolverine = Half-troll Barbarian/Monk/Ninja(rokugan)/Samurai(OA)/Assassin with adamantine claw bracers and absorb weapon as a at will ability.

Deadpool = Elan half-troll Jester/Ninja

Magneto = Psion with an psionic version of Master of the Unseen Hand

Squirrel Girl = Druid/Beastmaster/Animal Lord

[Xtomjames]

Wolverine is not that at all. He's a fighter with Fast healing and the Adamainte graft skeleton with built in retractable claws.

Superman would be a Divine rank +0, monk, half-Purple Dragon with SLA,
Fly, ocular spell searing ray.

Personally I think that porting the Rifts Powers Unlimited/Heroes Unlimited books (which is easy) could make awesome superhero classes in D&D.

[NNescio]

Wolverine is not that at all. He's a fighter with Fast healing and the Adamainte graft skeleton with built in retractable claws.


Where's Regeneration?

[Raimun]

One of the most powerful deities might be able to copy some of the abilities of Stupendous Man... but not too sure about that.

[deuxhero]

whos superman?

Depending on the continuty, he's psionic, and someone somehwere made all his powers fit into a psion once.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Superman would be a... half-Purple Dragon...

Uh... may I ask: how? :smallconfused:

[Eldariel]

Depending on the continuty, he's psionic, and someone somehwere made all his powers fit into a psion once.

DMM: Persist Cleric is about 1000000 times easier to make work. Invulnerability, near-infinite speed, near-infinite strength, flight, no need to breathe, eye lasers (Ocular Spell, hello!), X-ray, all of that is trivially available as spells. And since they last forever...well, yeah. That's it.

[Raimun]

Seriously though,

Silver Samurai: Samurai

[NNescio]

DMM: Persist Cleric is about 1000000 times easier to make work. Invulnerability, near-infinite speed, near-infinite strength, flight, no need to breathe, eye lasers (Ocular Spell, hello!), X-ray, all of that is trivially available as spells. And since they last forever...well, yeah. That's it.

With Kryptonite being a highly specific form of AMF. Brilliant!


Seriously though,

Silver Samurai: Samurai

Similarly tiered as well. :smallwink:

[TwylyghT]

Wolverine is not that at all. He's a fighter with Fast healing and the Adamainte graft skeleton with built in retractable claws.

Superman would be a Divine rank +0, monk, half-Purple Dragon with SLA,
Fly, ocular spell searing ray.

Personally I think that porting the Rifts Powers Unlimited/Heroes Unlimited books (which is easy) could make awesome superhero classes in D&D.

I really think plain fighter is one of the the last martial classes I would consider for wolverine. He has had samurai training, he was in a ninja clan, hes trained in endless unarmed styles, and he rages. Even in to more modern times and military training, thats likely more ranger/scout than fighter.

Not that you couldnt do it with fighter levels, just that there are classes that specifically do what he does.

The last time I picked up an X-Men comic he was also a vampire... *rolls eyes*

[Greenish]

Not that you couldnt do it with fighter levels, just that there are classes that specifically do what he does.Yeah, tiger claw warblade.

[Groverfield]

More on costumes: Glamered full plate. Quick change into any costume!

[Saintheart]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/30154/623109-wonder_woman_super.jpg

All right, so what's the build here? Please do not include Freudian comments. :)

[opticalshadow]

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/30154/623109-wonder_woman_super.jpg

All right, so what's the build here? Please do not include Freudian comments. :)

honestly? a fighter with some magic weapons and a dragon mount with invisability perma casted on it.

she really didnt have powers, she wa smore like batman, just alot of fancy toys.

in fact honestly a wizard prolly isnt the best batman class, artificer is.

[Godskook]

All right, so what's the build here? Please do not include Freudian comments. :)

A low-level fighter-type who somehow got their hands on infinite deflection epic feat and a flight(Su).

[Yuki Akuma]

she really didnt have powers, she wa smore like batman, just alot of fancy toys.

...

She has superstrength nearly on par with Superman and can fly!

She also has reflexes quick enough to parry machinegun fire!

She also wipes the floor with Batman every time they fight, so I wouldn't call her low-level. (Sucks for Batman that he sometimes has to fight Superman-level threats who don't have crippling weaknesses.)

Wonder Woman is one of the three most powerful heroes on the planet, people. Have none of you read a comic in the past thirty years?

[Midnight_v]

Wonder Woman is one of the three most powerful heroes on the planet, people. Have none of you read a comic in the past thirty years?
__________________
I have. I know what you're saying, I think a lot of people just know here from the linda carter tv show. They don't know here as one of the big 3.
Superman. Superman is a Black Ethergaunt. Permanently altered somehow into an elan (so he looks human) thats the easiest because all of supermans powers are racial. You likely have to give him ocular spell the feat.
Also He knows g.celerity and timestop, and always has foresight up as well as overland flight.
The Martian Manhunter uses the same tricks Except he's an organic build of Changling.
SorcererX/Mindbender1/Incantrix/Prc(maybe recaster)

Wolverine... wolverine is an example of multiclass mastery, it seems...
Shifter:
Totemist 2(sphinxclaws),Barbarian1(whirling frenzy variant)/liontotem, Frenzied berserker 4(Deatless frenzy),Warblade 11, Crusader2
You probably have healing factor from being a shifter class You don't die right or at all.

Alternatively you could get away with.
Barbarian1, Frezied berserker 3 Totemist 2, Crusader X... no pun intended.
Spending feats on gaining tiger claw school. This will get you Strike of righteos vitaility.

Lastly you could take the feral template +1, and tack it on to a tob class, but that feels more like sabertooth...

[Raimun]

I think Batman would be more like Factotum.

Batman-wizard is more like a parable. Sure, Batman is prepared to almost anything but he uses to that end skills and gadgets, not innate power. Besides, everybody knows Batman can throw batarangs and swing ropes.

Therefore: Factotum. Just focus in close combat, give him UMD, other appropriate skills, a cape, a cowl and optionally incomprehensively growling voice and you're all set.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh, Wonder Woman is really really really up there in the DC power level... just so you guys know...

[Tvtyrant]

I would order them superman/green lantern
wonder woman
people who use tanks to catch pickpockets.

[wayfare]

I would order them superman/green lantern
wonder woman
people who use tanks to catch pickpockets.

Eh, its pretty debatable:

GLs can tank Kryptonian Blows sometimes, and can move at superluminal speeds.

Wonderwoman is not as strong as Superman but is a better fighter and has no weaknesses. Superman, on the other hand, is weak to any magic widget Wonder Woman pulls out.

The Flash needs to be up there, above Superman. The only hero to take out Superman Prime (a crazy alternate teenage version of superman) without an entire galaxy of help was a Flash.

As for builds:

Batman is a Factotum, all the way.
Wonder Woman is an Epic Warblade
GLs are Kineticists
Flash and Superman are divine somethings

Wolverine is a Warblade/Rogue (I'd put him around level 12)
Cyclops is a Warlock/Scout (Put him at level 9)
Daredevil is a Ninja/Scout
Iron Fist is a Warmind, if you could play a warmind w/o any other class levels

[Xtomjames]

Uh... may I ask: how? :smallconfused:

Half-purple dragon (at least in this sense) would give him a force breath weapon, heightened strength, and better sight. The permanent ocular spell would give him his heat vision, I suppose I could have thrown in blind-sight to cover X-ray vision, the Adamantine skin graft would give him the DR and durability that he exhibits. The +0 divine rank grants him the long distance sensory and immunities he exhibits. The permanent fly spell would let him fly at will.

Since Half-Dragons don't have to have scales or pigment colorization this doesn't affect his over all look, while still granting him natural armor as well.

**
Yes Wolverine should have regeneration 20, my bad, but no he's a fighter. He doesn't have any of the special abilities of the Samurai, ninja, or monks as described in game. He's a specialized fighter who took Martial Study as a feat, and a few others to allow him to be proficient with his claw attack. Including a few of the MM feats. Otherwise he's a plain old fighter.

**

The classic Wonder Woman (the one who can't fly) is a Monk based character with bracers of deflect arrows, maybe a Half-Celestial template to increase strength and grant a few immunities. She has a few magic items, a magic unbreakable lasso and a tiara/chakram.

The new Wonder Woman who can fly is on par with Superman, but I don't see her as cannon.

Personally I'd prefer Spiderman. Spiderclimb as a supernatural ability or extraordinary ability. Webslingers that generate a sticky rope that can cling to walls and ceilings, and supped up strength and "spidey-sense" (blind sense). LA of +2 with no HD.A couple of bonuses to jump, climb, tumble, move silently and hide.

Storm would be interesting as well, imagine that. Storm Sorceress that's a Specialized Sorc with control elements and control weather.

Batman is a Rogue Assassin with a lot of toys, that's it.

Firestorm could be a Fire Elemental more or less straight out, the Martian Manhunter could be a Githyanki Psi-monk with the supernatural ability to go incorporeal at will. Cyborg would be a construct, Aqualad or Aqua Man would just be a plain old Human Half-mermaid. Hawkman would be a Winged-Elf Fighter, The Flash would be a Quickling (CG), I could go on and on.

You guys are suggesting very extravagant builds for superheroes and making them way too overpowered. Except for Superman and Apocalypse and Darkside most of the characters in the DC and Marvel comics are rather low level when compared to the D&D world.

[Yuki Akuma]

I suppose Superman being able to fly isn't "canon" either, because he didn't start with that power?

Wonder Woman has been able to fly since at least 1987, possibly longer.

[NNescio]

Eh, its pretty debatable:

GLs can tank Kryptonian Blows sometimes, and can move at superluminal speeds.

Wonderwoman is not as strong as Superman but is a better fighter and has no weaknesses. Superman, on the other hand, is weak to any magic widget Wonder Woman pulls out.

The Flash needs to be up there, above Superman. The only hero to take out Superman Prime (a crazy alternate teenage version of superman) without an entire galaxy of help was a Flash.

As for builds:

Batman is a Factotum, all the way.
Wonder Woman is an Epic Warblade
GLs are Kineticists
Flash and Superman are divine somethings

Wolverine is a Warblade/Rogue (I'd put him around level 12)
Cyclops is a Warlock/Scout (Put him at level 9)
Daredevil is a Ninja/Scout
Iron Fist is a Warmind, if you could play a warmind w/o any other class levels

Superman + Green Lantern = Sodam Yat?

(That guy is an even bigger min-maxer.)

[Xtomjames]

I suppose Superman being able to fly isn't "canon" either, because he didn't start with that power?

Wonder Woman has been able to fly since at least 1987, possibly longer.
You're a decade behind, Wonder Woman gained the ability to fly, officially, in 1998. This ability remained in comic book form until 2001 when Justice League premiered and she had the ability in the reincarnation of Justice Friends. Superman gained the ability to fly in te 1950s, though the method and power behind his ability to fly is hotly debated (as spoofed in The Big Bang Theory).

Prior to 1998, some offshoot comics that weren't part of the main universe did have her flying, but not of her own accord or technically as a superpower. In some cases as early as the '60s she could "ride the air currents" to "fly" but she had little control and had need of actual air flow to fly. No wind, no flight. What more, she is one of the DC comic's least stable characters when it comes to super powers. What she could and could not do varied greatly with each writer.

According to Dougall, Alastair, ed (2008). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. Dorling Kindersley. ISBN 978-0756641191. OCLC 213309017. Wonder Women didn't get the ability to fly at will until after being contracted by Hermes. This was a 1998 comic release.

Edit: As a lifelong Batman fan, I can say with impunity that Factorum is not what he is. He has no mystical abilities what so ever, no magic, no supernatural powers, no spells or spell-like abilities. A factorum's main point is the Arcane Dilletonte ability.

Batman is in my opinion a Rogue Monk, or a Ninja Monk combination with a dip into Battle Trickster and maybe an Ianjutsu based class to gain entrance into Ianjutsu Master.

[Greenish]

Yes Wolverine should have regeneration 20, my bad, but no he's a fighter.I agree. I'd say about at least level 9 for Dancing Mongoose. That also gets him Imp. Uncanny Dodge and a pair of bonus feats.

[Xtomjames]

I agree. I'd say about at least level 9 for Dancing Mongoose. That also gets him Imp. Uncanny Dodge and a pair of bonus feats.

Except he doesn't need any of that. Look, he has regen 20, an adamantine skeleton and claws. He doesn't need to dodge, he's immune to death by massive damage, his class would be completely based on attacks, hence fighter with a focus on natural or unarmed attacks.

[Greenish]

his class would be completely based on attacks, hence fighter with a focus on natural or unarmed attacks.I agree. He doesn't need high int, those class features are nice but not essential.

He'd have two 1st level stances, which is a bit shame since a bit of delay could give him Leaping Dragon Stance to go with the Hunter's Sense. Maybe delay stance gain by dipping into some other class, say, that one for bonus feats, what was it called…

[NNescio]

Isn't Wolverine also a skillmonkey?

He's a pilot, a mechanic, a covert-ops expert, and a polyglot to boot, and has a lot of ranks invested in various knowledge and profession skills.

I mean, one doesn't need to give him an actual skillmonkey class, but giving him low INT and a crippling low amount of skill points does seem to be a bit counterproductive.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I agree. He doesn't need high int, those class features are nice but not essential.

He'd have two 1st level stances, which is a bit shame since a bit of delay could give him Leaping Dragon Stance to go with the Hunter's Sense. Maybe delay stance gain by dipping into some other class, say, that one for bonus feats, what was it called…

The two level dip class? Something like that. Feat rogue could also work, for skill points.

[Gavinfoxx]

Doesn't Wolverine regularly have some memory issues with regards to his past, and he only has access to those skills in specific scenarios? His iconic skills are the Scent and tracking and survival based stuff, right?

[Xtomjames]

Again you're over thinking it guys. Wolverine is a skill monkey because he's old, and he doesn't have that many skills to begin with anyways. Yes he's a pilot, but he doesn't work well with computers. He's good a basic mechanics and is military trained over about 200 years in the original storyline at least (the movie story line puts him at 70). The memory loss was actually caused by Professor X but could be done with a flaw. The Jump attacks can be done with feats no need for stances.

We could define Wolverine as a specific Human Mutant as a racial class granting him the scent ability, the regen, the buff to strength and tracking, and classing survival jump move silently and hide and climbing as racial classes. He'd be a +5 LA without HD.

If you want stances he could take Martial Study as a bonus feat and then take maneuvers and stances, though limited.

[NNescio]

Doesn't Wolverine regularly have some memory issues with regards to his past, and he only has access to those skills in specific scenarios? His iconic skills are the Scent and tracking and survival based stuff, right?

So, Binder?

(Which doesn't make sense fluff-wise, but the mechanics seem to fit really well.)

[Midnight_v]

Yes Wolverine should have regeneration 20, my bad, but no he's a fighter.
You're joking or you don't know wolverine.
Powers and abilities
Wolverine is a mutant with a number of both natural and artificial improvements to his physiology. His primary mutant power is an accelerated healing process, typically referred to as his mutant healing factor, that regenerates damaged or destroyed tissues of his body far beyond the capabilities of an ordinary human. This power facilitated the artificial improvements he was subjected to under the Weapon X program (in later comics called the Weapon Plus program), in which his skeleton was reinforced with the virtually indestructible metal adamantium.

Depictions of the speed and extent of injury to which Wolverine can heal vary. Originally, this was portrayed as accelerated healing of minor wounds,[34] but writers have steadily increased this ability over the years. After several years, Wolverine's healing factor was depicted as healing severe wounds within a matter of days or hours.[35][36] Other writers went on to increase Wolverine's healing factor to the point that it could fully regenerate nearly any damaged or destroyed bodily tissues within seconds.[37][38][39] Among the more extreme depictions of Wolverine's healing factor include fully healing after being caught near the center of an atomic explosion[40] and the total regeneration of his soft body tissue, within a matter of minutes, after having it incinerated from his skeleton.[41] It has been stated in the Xavier Protocols, a series of profiles created by Xavier that lists the strengths and weaknesses of the X-Men, that Wolverine's healing factor is increased to "incredible levels" and theorizes that the only way to stop him is to decapitate him and remove his head from the vicinity of his body.[42] It's possible for the efficiency of his healing powers to be suppressed. For example, if an object composed of carbonadium is inserted and remains lodged within his body, his healing powers are slowed dramatically though they are not fully suppressed.[43] His healing factor can also be greatly suppressed by the Muramasa blade, a katana of mystic origins that can inflict wounds that nullify superhuman healing factors.[44] His healing factor also dramatically slows his aging process, allowing him to live beyond the normal lifespan of a human. Despite being born in the late 19th century,[45] he has the appearance and vitality of a man in his physical prime. It is unknown exactly how greatly his healing factor extends his life expectancy. Though he now has all of his memories, his healing abilities can provide increased recovery from psychological trauma by suppressing memories in which he experiences profound distress.[46] In addition to accelerated healing of physical traumas, Wolverine's healing factor makes him extraordinarily resistant to diseases, drugs, and toxins. However, he can still suffer the immediate effects of such substances in massive quantities; he has been shown to become intoxicated after significant dosages of alcoholic beverages,[47] and has been incapacitated on several occasions with large amounts of powerful drugs and poisons;[48] S.H.I.E.L.D. once managed to keep Wolverine anaesthetised by constantly pumping eighty milliliters of anaesthetic a minute into his system.[49]

Although his body heals, the healing factor does not suppress the pain he endures while injured.[50] He does not enjoy being hurt and sometimes has to work himself up for situations where extreme pain is certain.[51][52] Wolverine, on occasion, has deliberately injured himself or allowed himself to be injured for varying reasons, including freeing himself from capture,[53] intimidation,[54] strategy,[55] or simply indulging his feral nature.[56][57][58]

Wolverine's mutation also consists of animal-like adaptations of his body, including pronounced, and sharp fang-like canines and three retractable claws housed within each forearm. While originally depicted as bionic implants created by the Weapon X program,[59] the claws are later revealed to be a natural part of his body.[60] The claws are not made of keratin, as claws tend to be in the animal kingdom, but extremely dense bone, and, with their adamantium coating, can cut substances as durable as most metals, wood, and some varieties of stone. They can also be used to block attacks or projectiles, as well as dig into surfaces allowing Wolverine to climb structures.[61] Wolverine's hands do not have openings for the claws to move through: they cut through his flesh every time he extrudes them, with occasional references implying that he feels a brief moment of slight pain in his hands when he unsheathes them.[62]

On more than one occasion, Wolverine's entire skeleton, including his claws, has been molecularly infused with adamantium. Due to their coating, his claws can cut almost any known solid material. The only known exceptions are adamantium itself and Captain America's shield, which is made out of an iron-vibranium alloy. Vibranium alone is not comparable in terms of durability with adamantium, seeing as Colossus has broken it. Wolverine's ability to slice completely through a substance depends upon both the amount of force he can exert and the thickness of the substance. The adamantium also weights his blows, increasing the effectiveness of his offensive capabilities.[35] However, this also makes him exceptionally susceptible to magnetic based attacks.[63] Also, while the adamantium is in his body his healing factor must work constantly to prevent the metal poisoning killing him, with the result that his ability to heal is slightly lessened compared to what he would be capable of normally.

Wolverine's healing factor also affects a number of his physical attributes by increasing them to superhuman levels. His stamina is sufficiently heightened to the point he can exert himself for numerous hours, even after exposure to powerful tranquilizers.[64] Wolverine's agility and reflexes are also enhanced to levels that are beyond the physical limits of the finest human athlete.[65][66] Due to his healing factor's constant regenerative qualities, he can push his muscles beyond the limits of the human body without injury.[67] This, coupled by the constant demand placed on his muscles by over one hundred pounds of adamantium,[68] grants him some degree of superhuman strength. Since the presence of the adamantium negates the natural structural limits of his bones, he can lift or move weight that would otherwise damage a human skeleton.[66] He has been depicted breaking steel chains,[69][70][71][72] lifting several men above his head with one arm and throwing them through a wall[67] and lifting Ursa Major (in grizzly bear form) over his head before tossing him across a room.[73]

Wolverine's senses of sight, smell, and hearing are all superhumanly acute. He can see with perfect clarity at greater distances than an ordinary human, even in near-total darkness. His hearing is enhanced in a similar manner, allowing him to both hear sounds ordinary humans cannot and also hear to greater distances. Wolverine is able to use his sense of smell to track targets by scent, even if the scent has been eroded somewhat over time by natural factors. This sense also allows him to identify shapeshifting mutants despite other forms they may take.[74] He is also able to use his senses of smell and hearing, through concentration, as a type of natural lie detector, such as detecting a faint change in a person's heartbeat and scent due to perspiration when a lie is told.[75]

Due to a combination of his healing factor and high level psionic shields implanted by Professor Xavier, Wolverine's mind is highly resistant to telepathic assault and probing.[76] Wolverine's mind also possesses what he refers to as "mental scar tissue" created by all of the traumatic events over the course of his life. It acts as a type of natural defense, even against a psychic as powerful as Emma Frost.[77]

Skills and personality

82During his time in Japan and other countries, Wolverine becomes a master of virtually all forms of martial arts and is experienced in virtually every fighting style on Earth. He is proficient with most weaponry, including firearms, though he is partial to bladed weapons. He has demonstrated sufficient skills to defeat the likes of Shang-Chi[78] and Captain America[79] in single combat. He also has a wide knowledge of the body and pressure points.[80] He is also an accomplished pilot and highly skilled in the field of espionage and covert operations

Wolverine will sometimes lapse into a "berserker rage" while in close combat. In this state he lashes out with the intensity and aggression of an enraged animal and is even more resistant to psionic attack.[81] Though he loathes it, he acknowledges that it has saved his life many times, it being most notably useful when he faced the telepathic 'Mister X', as X's ability to read his mind and predict his next move in a fight was useless in a berserk state as not even Wolverine knows what he will do next in this state.[volume & issue needed] Despite his apparent ease at taking lives, he does not enjoy killing or giving in to his berserker rages. Logan adheres to a firm code of personal honor and morality.[]

In contrast to his brutish nature, Wolverine is extremely intelligent. Due to his increased lifespan, he has traveled around the world and amassed extensive knowledge of foreign languages and cultures. He is fluent in English, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, Cheyenne, Spanish, Arabic, and Lakota; he also has some knowledge of French, Thai, Vietnamese, German, Italian, Portuguese, Korean, Hindi, and Persian.[83][84] When Forge monitors Wolverine's vitals during a Danger Room training session, he calls Logan's physical and mental state "equivalent of an Olympic-level gymnast performing a gold medal routine while simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head." [74] Much to Professor Xavier's disapproval, Wolverine is also a heavy drinker and smoker - his healing powers negate the long term effects of alcohol and tobacco and allow him to indulge in prolonged binges.


He's doing a lot of stuff, one thing he's NOT is just a fighter 20 or somesuch.
Further as much as I hate incarnum, the SPINX CLAWS meld is actually a picture of wolverine, the fact that you can dismiss them and bind rapidly, give us the whole pop claws thing


Again you're over thinking it guys. Wolverine is a skill monkey because he's old, and he doesn't have that many skills to begin with anyways.
No I don't think they are.
He is old though as in category for humans, but he's taken no racial penalties for it.
Making him a specific mutant sounds really bad I don't wanna make up a template when we have the tools to just MAKE him.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Since Half-Dragons don't have to have scales or pigment colorization this doesn't affect his over all look, while still granting him natural armor as well.

That's uh... that's blatantly wrong. I mean, really and blatantly wrong.


Half-dragon creatures are always more formidable than others of their kind that do not have dragon blood, and their appearance betrays their nature—scales, elongated features, reptilian eyes, and exaggerated teeth and claws. Sometimes they have wings.

[Jalor]

excerpts from Wolverine's absurdly detailed Wikipedia article

Wolverine is clearly a DMPC (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GMPC?from=Main.DMPC).

[Midnight_v]

Wolverine is clearly a DMPC (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GMPC?from=Main.DMPC).

I admit, Love this post.

[NNescio]

Wolverine is clearly a DMPC (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GMPC?from=Main.DMPC).

Agreed. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WolverinePublicity)

Poor Scott... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_The_Last_Stand)

Meanwhile, Jean Grey is the DM's girlfriend...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Agreed. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WolverinePublicity)

Poor Scott... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_The_Last_Stand)

Meanwhile, Jean Grey is the DM's girlfriend...


You do know the actor playing scot decided to take a (minor IIRC) role in Superman returns? Because I feel he got what he deserved (I am not fond on Superman)

More one topic... I recall someone statting Jean as a Kinetist psion... pretty accurately IIRC

[Yuki Akuma]

You dislike the character who is the main reason any other superhero exists?

[Xtomjames]

That's uh... that's blatantly wrong. I mean, really and blatantly wrong.

Er...no it's not, the degree to which there are scales is up to the player and description. Meanwhile I'm operating under applicable powers that replicate what Superman can do, rather than physical appearance.

On Wolverine: Building a template is far easier and less exhaustive than trying to build him using a massive number of classes. Not to mention doing it with classes ignores the more specific point that as a mutant he was born with his powers (and claws).

Your quotes on the other hand, while interesting, over all do not denote general skill in game play. What more, you've quoted a bit explaining the whole of Wolverine spanning several alternate worlds. If we are to go purely by one world or another we'd have to concede skills and abilities.

That said I will revise a point, Wolverine would probably be a gestalted character, fighter/monk, not just plain fighter. Even though he doesn't necessarily have the speed increases in the comics.

Retractable claws, btw, exist in game as a construct graft, no need to take class levels to gain it.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Er...no it's not, the degree to which there are scales is up to the player and description. Meanwhile I'm operating under applicable powers that replicate what Superman can do, rather than physical appearance.

The SRD says that half-dragons have scales. If not scales, other features that betray their nature. It's perfectly fine to say "this template gives powers like Superman's", but to say that half-dragon wouldn't alter his appearance to the point of not looking like Superman is a lie, and lying isn't good.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The SRD says that half-dragons have scales. If not scales, other features that betray their nature. It's perfectly fine to say "this template gives powers like Superman's", but to say that half-dragon wouldn't alter his appearance to the point of not looking like Superman is a lie, and lying isn't good.

It's called refluffing.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You dislike the character who is the main reason any other superhero exists?

I just haven't read a single Superman comic that I have liked, I know there are good Superman issues but I haven't been able to find them. I didn't like the movie either (Superman Returns I haven't seen the others)

And why do I have to like him because he was the originator? I thank Superman for starting the genre but that is the extend of it. Until I find a story of him I like I stand by my comment.

[TwylyghT]

You dislike the character who is the main reason any other superhero exists?

Just because he has super in his name, does not make him the first, best, or greatest Superhero, and to believe that the genre would not exist or have advanced without him is silly.

Plenty of, and better, heroes came before.

[Greenish]

You dislike the character who is the main reason any other superhero exists?An old jungle saying: Nobody dislikes the Ghost Who Walks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePhantom).


On Wolverine: Building a template is far easier and less exhaustive than trying to build him using a massive number of classes.It would also miss the whole point.


Retractable claws, btw, exist in game as a construct graftGrand, I've been meaning to go bookdiving for those, where are they?

[Xtomjames]

An old jungle saying: Nobody dislikes the Ghost Who Walks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePhantom).

It would also miss the whole point.

Grand, I've been meaning to go bookdiving for those, where are they?

It wouldn't miss the whole point, it would fit with the concept of the mutant.

I do believe the grafts exist in Eberron as a construct graft, along with the arm grafts, heart graft, skin graft and leg graft. That or it was an option as part of a graft, but they do exist. Constructs can have the retractable claw as a built in weapon.

[Yuki Akuma]

Just because he has super in his name, does not make him the first, best, or greatest Superhero, and to believe that the genre would not exist or have advanced without him is silly.

Plenty of, and better, heroes came before.

He wasn't the first, but he popularised the idea of the costumed, superpowered vigilante. If Superman hadn't existed, the comics industry today would be different at the very least.

[Greenish]

It wouldn't miss the whole point, it would fit with the concept of the mutant.Yes, but the point wasn't to homebrew something, but to build the powers from existing stuff.


I do believe the grafts exist in Eberron as a construct graft, along with the arm grafts, heart graft, skin graft and leg graft. That or it was an option as part of a graft, but they do exist.Well, they're not in any of the 3.5 Eberron books (if they were, I wouldn't have to ask :smalltongue:).

[Edit]:
He wasn't the first, but he popularised the idea of the costumed, superpowered vigilante. If Superman hadn't existed, the comics industry today would be different at the very least.Eh, superhero stuff is just one genre of comics, not even that popular outside of USA.

[Yuki Akuma]

[Edit]: Eh, superhero stuff is just one genre of comics, not even that popular outside of USA.

You're right there. But it's my understanding that the industry in the US was dominated by superhero stuff for quite a while.

Of course, I'm not in the US, so what do I know?

[Xtomjames]

He wasn't the first, but he popularised the idea of the costumed, superpowered vigilante. If Superman hadn't existed, the comics industry today would be different at the very least.

Hate to break it to you, but the "superhero" isn't that young of a concept. In fact it is just a modernization of an already in practice methodology of writing mythos, such as Hercules, Spartacus, Jason and the Argonaughts, and so forth. In fact the first superheroes to wear "tights' as it were, were Greek and written over 2000 years ago. (In this case it was the thinly clad skins of defeated enemies. In some instances they wore masks to hide their identity while trying to live normal lives...what an ironic twist in the concept...)

Superman, ironically enough, is also just a retelling of Hercules and a few other non-Greek superbeings. There is a reason why many superheroes are similar to older mythos in back story, or blatantly use the old mythos in back story (eh-hem, Wonder Women, Thor. &c).




The SRD says that half-dragons have scales. If not scales, other features that betray their nature. It's perfectly fine to say "this template gives powers like Superman's", but to say that half-dragon wouldn't alter his appearance to the point of not looking like Superman is a lie, and lying isn't good.


Yes, but there are things that betray Superman's nature so this is a misnomer on your part. A Half Dragon doesn't have to have scales showing, or even a difference in color or appearance of their skin. In many cases they are mistaken for elves because the only indicator of a different species is pointy ears. Again this is about interpretation of the character, we're not limited here to purely RAW concepts.

[Yuki Akuma]

Do I really need to add "brightly coloured, stylised" to the "costumed" part of that sentence before people stop nitpicking? Superman codified the modern take on superheroes. He didn't originate the idea.

Also Superman is a rip off of Gladiator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator_(novel)), possibly.

[Greenish]

Superman, ironically enough, is also just a retelling of Hercules and a few other non-Greek superbeings.I'm not sure I see the irony there, and I don't think "just" is very justified, either. Many of Shakespeare's plays were "just" retellings of older (or contemporary, he wasn't picky) stories.



You're right there. But it's my understanding that the industry in the US was dominated by superhero stuff for quite a while.That's what Tvtropes tells me, and Tvtropes is the only source more reliable than Wikipedia, as we all know.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, but there are things that betray Superman's nature so this is a misnomer on your part. A Half Dragon doesn't have to have scales showing, or even a difference in color or appearance of their skin. In many cases they are mistaken for elves because the only indicator of a different species is pointy ears. Again this is about interpretation of the character, we're not limited here to purely RAW concepts.

Normally it is really difficult to prove someone wrong on this forum but;

Exhibit one:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG147.jpg Straight out of the MM


Exhibit 2:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79144.jpg A half-dragon paragon

Exhibit 3:
http://wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75669.jpg Another half dragon.. can't remeber the exact source but I think it is the Draconomicon

Exhibit 4:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94142.jpg
From Races of the Dragon

So by all sources pertaining dragons and half dragons from D&D 3.5 shows at least scales if not almost humanoid dragons (the Paragon). And the point of this kind of exercise is to do it while staying as close to RAW as possible, ignoring it makes the challenge/thought exercise/however you want to call it poinless.

[Eisirt]

And they are all spitting images for Superman!

[Xtomjames]

Normally it is really difficult to prove someone wrong on this forum but;

Exhibit one:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG147.jpg Straight out of the MM


Exhibit 2:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79144.jpg A half-dragon paragon

Exhibit 3:
http://wizards.com/dnd/images/draco_gallery/75669.jpg Another half dragon.. can't remeber the exact source but I think it is the Draconomicon

Exhibit 4:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94142.jpg
From Races of the Dragon

So by all sources pertaining dragons and half dragons from D&D 3.5 shows at least scales if not almost humanoid dragons (the Paragon). And the point of this kind of exercise is to do it while staying as close to RAW as possible, ignoring it makes the challenge/thought exercise/however you want to call it poinless.


Yeah, portrayal and rules as written are two different things. You haven't proven me wrong, you've only shown that in general terms the books that deal with Half-Dragons portray them within a certain light.

{{scrubbed}}

***
Wolverine Construct Grafts: If we treat the adamantine skeleton as a construct graft (as per say the mighty arms graft from Faiths of Eberron) then we can apply the construct component Traction Claws from Races of Eberron.

[The Dark Fiddler]

{{scrubbed}}

I think (forgive me if I'm wrong) I've had this discussion with you before, but for the sake of completeness I'll say this (again?): discussions on the forum use RAW as the default unless otherwise stated. If you're going to be using half-dragon to represent Superman, then you need to say that it requires refluffing, because otherwise you've just given Superman claws, fangs, and purple scales.

[Xtomjames]

I think (forgive me if I'm wrong) I've had this discussion with you before, but for the sake of completeness I'll say this (again?): discussions on the forum use RAW as the default unless otherwise stated. If you're going to be using half-dragon to represent Superman, then you need to say that it requires refluffing, because otherwise you've just given Superman claws, fangs, and purple scales.

And I'll state this again, there is no Header statement of this being a RAW discussion, this is merely a discussion of how to create superheroes in game. The rules to the specific features of what a half-dragon looks like is Unspecific at best, and the "proof" given about to what degree the physical traits of the dragon manifest has been artist drawings, which falls under Artistic License, all of which show varying degrees of scales and dragonesque features.

Further, the assumption that every discussion, unless otherwise stated, is RAW is absurd. Many of the threads on this forum, are not RAW at all without expressly stating so.

A discussion about Superheroes in D&D is also obviously not RAW based.

Now, in the line of superpowers it works, it has nothing to do with actual physical appearance. That said, it is up to the player to determine what degree by which the half-dragon's traits are visible. This is by RAW rules because as I've stated the RAW rules are VAGUE. It says (as has already been quoted) that scales and other features may give away the lineage, it does not say to what degree those traits are made prominent.

Now drop the argument over RAW and not RAW and what is and isn't stated and what is and isn't a half-dragon and accept the fact that regardless of what images in the various books show, it is purely up to the PC and DM as to what a character looks like.

And considering we're talking about a world where anything is possible, where we are talking about recreating superheroes from non-D&D universes the main law of the books (that DM is god) takes precedent over any other smattering of rules you can toss up here.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think (forgive me if I'm wrong) I've had this discussion with you before, but for the sake of completeness I'll say this (again?): discussions on the forum use RAW as the default unless otherwise stated. If you're going to be using half-dragon to represent Superman, then you need to say that it requires refluffing, because otherwise you've just given Superman claws, fangs, and purple scales.

Wait, so if I want my warblade to not be a gloryhound, or I want my unarmed swordsage to be a brawler, or I want my TWF ranger with superior unarmed strike or a quarterstaff to be a martial artist, that's homebrewing? Thank you for enlightening me. [/sarcasm]

[Greenish]

Wolverine Construct Grafts: If we treat the adamantine skeleton as a construct graft (as per say the mighty arms graft from Faiths of Eberron) then we can apply the construct component Traction Claws from Races of Eberron.Ah, but those can't be used as weapons.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Further, the assumption that every discussion, unless otherwise stated, is RAW is absurd. Many of the threads on this forum, are not RAW at all without expressly stating so.

Could you find me an example, please?


It says (as has already been quoted) that scales and other features may give away the lineage, it does not say to what degree those traits are made prominent.

Will you please stop saying things that are blatantly wrong?


Half-dragon creatures are always more formidable than others of their kind that do not have dragon blood, and their appearance betrays their nature—scales, elongated features, reptilian eyes, and exaggerated teeth and claws. Sometimes they have wings.

Where does it say may in there? The closest you get is that they sometimes have wings, but that specifically applies to wings.


Now drop the argument over RAW and not RAW and what is and isn't stated and what is and isn't a half-dragon and accept the fact that regardless of what images in the various books show, it is purely up to the PC and DM as to what a character looks like.

Then just admit that you were presenting something that required refluffing as RAW. That's all I want from this, personally.


And considering we're talking about a world where anything is possible, where we are talking about recreating superheroes from non-D&D universes the main law of the books (that DM is god) takes precedent over any other smattering of rules you can toss up here.

But (and this is why RAW is so important here) there IS no DM here. DM says you have to have scales as a half-dragon, what now? DM says no templates, what now? DM just decides to give you all of Superman's powers for the hell of it, what now? The very nature of the discussion changes, so things like this aren't assumed to be the default.


Wait, so if I want my warblade to not be a gloryhound, or I want my unarmed swordsage to be a brawler, or I want my TWF ranger with superior unarmed strike or a quarterstaff to be a martial artist, that's homebrewing? Thank you for enlightening me. [/sarcasm]

No, because then you're explicitly saying "disregard RAW for this". :smalltongue:

[Moogleking]

On an unrelated note, I like trains.

[TwylyghT]

Me too, in a related sense, I also enjoy a good convoy.

[Gavinfoxx]

I like tracks. RAILROAD tracks!

[Psyren]

Binder is perhaps the best way to do superheroes in 3.5; just fluff away the pact/vestige stuff and replace them with various ability sets.

[Zonugal]

I think there is a problem when engaging any adaptation of a pop culture idea/concept/character into DnD 3.5, namely there are two approaches.

1. Using DnD 3.5 how would this character function? That is to say how would we exactly adapt this character into 3.5, with the focus being on the melding rules & facts together?

2. How would this character function in DnD 3.5? That is to say how would we develop this character within the realm of DnD 3.5? This takes a much more flavorful approach and is something akin to Neil Gaiman's 1609 series for Marvel.

With that said we should attempt to always use the second, it is the best method. It alleviates us of the straight-jacket that is being bound being a character's limitations within their own medium. It allows us to properly bbuild the character into a realistic (that is, dropping them into the renaissance-era of DnD) place in the realm of DnD. The system isn't built for CEOs and Photographers, we must acknowledge this or else we become bound to such unrealistic restrictions.

So let us take an example of Cyclops, there is a lot to work with. Now the standard approach would be to simply do a Warlock-type build as it captures the 'Spray n' Pray' ability of his unlimited eye-blasts. But that reeks of limitation, after all he is a leader of the X-men in times. He is charismatic, intelligent, strong, agile and powerful. He is beyond the Warlock in what he could contribute to a team of powerful-beings. So we take a more flavorful approach once again. What about something like Human Battle Sorcerer 7/Sneak-Attack Fighter 1/Spell-Warp Sniper 5, it offers us limitations with Sorcerer spell selection but affords us the power needed for someone like Cyclops to function at his position. The other aspect we have to acknowledge is that we should not be building these characters at 20th-level. Some of them yes, they are absurdly powerful. But others operate much better when placed at lower-levels. After all there are tiers even with the super-hero community, let us respect such a difference as the same tier-system exists within DnD 3.5.

[Midnight_v]

1. Using DnD 3.5 how would this character function? That is to say how would we exactly adapt this character into 3.5, with the focus being on the melding rules & facts together?

2. How would this character function in DnD 3.5? That is to say how would we develop this character within the realm of DnD 3.5? This takes a much more flavorful approach and is something akin to Neil Gaiman's 1609 series for Marvel.
Those 2 things seem very very close. I'm not entirely sure I understand.

So if we can pause cyclops for a second please. Lets look at captain america.

Captain America by Jaronk

So, I decided to put this up after someone thought that you couldn't make a decent sword and board melee in D&D without a bunch of house rules. You can, but it requires using things that specifically require you to wield your shield... otherwise an Animated Shield will always be a better option. The best options I found are Shield Charge (if you hit an enemy at the end of a charge with your shield, the you get a free trip attempt against them), Shield Slam (if you hit an enemy at the end of a charge with a shield or use a full attack action to hit an enemy with your shield, they're dazed (fort save, DC 10+1/2 character level + strength mod) for one round), Shield Counter (Crusader manuever, hit an enemy during their attack so they automatically miss with their next attack), and Shield Block (add your shield bonus +4 to an adjacent ally). So, let me present an actually decent tank SAB melee (though technically the Sword part of that hardly matters, we're mostly going for the shield).

Build 1: The D&D Smiteadin

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +14, Human.

1: Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack
2: Improved Trip
3: Improved Bull Rush
5: Shield Charge
6: Shield Slam, Extra Granted Manuever
9: Shock Trooper
12: Leap Attack
15: Shield Specialization
18: Shield Ward

General strategy: Charge enemy using a charge manuever (Battle Leader's Charge, Warleader's Charge, Warmaster's Charge, Radiant Charge). Shield Slam and Shield Charge both activate, potencially tripping and dazing your enemy. If they get tripped, make an immediate attack again. Note that you have Shock Trooper, so you do a ton of damage this way (at level 20, it's +80 damage IIRC, which should apply to both attacks). At high levels when you have Warmaster's Charge, this probably kills the enemy. Even at lower levels it's dangerous as all heck. Keep doing this each round, charging a new enemy every time and taking them out of the fight for a couple rounds (one round due to dazing, one round to get back up when they only have a standard action left). Once per day you can Rage, boosting your to hit and the save DCs for Shield Slam (which are 10+1/2 character level + strength mod). Note that at a lot of levels you'll have two or three charge manuevers readied at all times, meaning the vast majority of the time you can charge with a manuever instead of just doing a regular charge.

If anyone attacks you or attacks a friend within range, Shield Counter them or Shield Block. The combination of Iron Guard's Glare and Shield Block gives a nearby ally +20 to AC, which should handle things quite nicely. If an ally is hurt, just smack one of your downed and dazed foes with a healing strike to bring them back up. You can heal yourself that way too... and any round in which you don't use counters, go with White Raven Tactics (when it's up of course).

Basically, charge the big threats on the battlefield, making sure to charge those that get to close to your party. If you can't charge, use healing strikes, Shield Counters, and Shield Blocks to bodyguard your party's squishy people. Both when charging and when bodyguarding, regularly use White Raven Tactics to keep your party at full speed.

Gear would be pretty straight forward tank stuff, though you'll want to go with medium armour (Mithral Full Plate, perhaps) to take advantage of Barbarian speed, or maybe a Chain Shirt and Dastanas if that's allowed. For the Shield, a nice Heavy Spiked Shield that's a Martial Discipline Weapon (Devoted Spirit) + Martial Discipline Weapon (White Raven) + Valorous... not sure about other boosts, but that will give a solid +6 to hit right there when in a Devoted Spirit stance (which is likely always) and making a White Raven strike (which is every time except with the healing strikes), plus double damage when charging. Your other weapon should probably be a light mace that's Undead Bane and Disruption, since undead are immune to your Shield Slams. The other option, if allowed, would be a Skillful weapon, either a Spinning Sword or Kusari Gama, thus allowing you to increase your reach (and your Iron Guard's Glare range). A Skillfull Defending Eager Spinning Sword of Warning would be incredibly useful, in fact.

Manuevers:
Basic manuever load outs at a few assorted levels would be as follows, with starred manuevers ready normally (nonstarred manuevers are for utility, or because I might have use for them):

3: Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur*, with Iron Guard's Glare as the stance.

7: Leading the Attack*, Vanguard Strike*, Crusader's Strike*, Stone Bones*, Charging Minotaur, Battle Leader's Charge*, with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances

10: Battle Leader's Charge*, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, White Raven Tactics*, Revitalizing Strike*, Covering Strike*, Shield Block* with Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit as stances

15: Battle Leader's Charge*, Stone Bones, White Raven Tactics*, Covering Strike, Shield Block*, Radiant Charge*, Elder Mountain Hammer, War Leader's Charge*, Shield Counter*, Rallying Strike, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, and Martial Spirit as stances

20: Warmaster's Charge*, Strike of Righteous Vitality*, Ancient Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge, White Raven Tactics*, Shield Block*, Shield Counter*, Warleader's Charge* Radiant Charge, Elder Mountain Hammer, with Iron Guard's Glare, Thicket of Blades, Immortal Fortitude and Martial Spirit as stances.



Stat priority is of course strength above all... that's the primary thing you need. A little dex for higher initiative and better AC is certainly handy, and con for hitpoints too, but really it's all about the strength. You might as well have a nice high Charisma and dump Wisdom, allowing you to rock out with Diplomacy. Intelligence is basically unneeded too, so this is a pretty SAD build.


Now which would you say that was?
That mechanically desribes (or close enough) how cap might work in D&D. He did that pretty much without the super-soilder serum being mentioned. Theoretically we could FIND something to fill that role out of all of D&D if we needed but, assuming this build fits you idea of captain america.
You come up with a background that fits, in a D&D sense and there you have Commander Cormyr or Colonel Aundair (who woke up after being frozen in the war or what have you).
Would this be an example of what you're talking about in 1 or 2?
I actually think Cyclops however would do well to be a warlock, followed by levels of Crusader, for white raven things mostly, but he has a focus on diplomacy and battlefield tactics.
It might be better to make him a SilverBrow human with refluffed meta breatfeats. Lastly yes we'd do okay to make him a sorceror with Ocular spell. Nothing Wrong with that perse. It all depends to what level you want to focus on his eyebeams vs his leadership. Thats what he gets.

[Xtomjames]

I think there is a problem when engaging any adaptation of a pop culture idea/concept/character into DnD 3.5, namely there are two approaches.

1. Using DnD 3.5 how would this character function? That is to say how would we exactly adapt this character into 3.5, with the focus being on the melding rules & facts together?

2. How would this character function in DnD 3.5? That is to say how would we develop this character within the realm of DnD 3.5? This takes a much more flavorful approach and is something akin to Neil Gaiman's 1609 series for Marvel.

With that said we should attempt to always use the second, it is the best method. It alleviates us of the straight-jacket that is being bound being a character's limitations within their own medium. It allows us to properly bbuild the character into a realistic (that is, dropping them into the renaissance-era of DnD) place in the realm of DnD. The system isn't built for CEOs and Photographers, we must acknowledge this or else we become bound to such unrealistic restrictions.

So let us take an example of Cyclops, there is a lot to work with. Now the standard approach would be to simply do a Warlock-type build as it captures the 'Spray n' Pray' ability of his unlimited eye-blasts. But that reeks of limitation, after all he is a leader of the X-men in times. He is charismatic, intelligent, strong, agile and powerful. He is beyond the Warlock in what he could contribute to a team of powerful-beings. So we take a more flavorful approach once again. What about something like Human Battle Sorcerer 7/Sneak-Attack Fighter 1/Spell-Warp Sniper 5, it offers us limitations with Sorcerer spell selection but affords us the power needed for someone like Cyclops to function at his position. The other aspect we have to acknowledge is that we should not be building these characters at 20th-level. Some of them yes, they are absurdly powerful. But others operate much better when placed at lower-levels. After all there are tiers even with the super-hero community, let us respect such a difference as the same tier-system exists within DnD 3.5.

Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. D&D rules are not designed with superheroes in mind, nor any non-D&D character base in mind. By looking to the strict rules of the D&D universe we are not only limited (may not be able to recreate powers at all) but to make an effective character (as in playable) we end up with hypercomplexity and crossing of classes.


Rather, we should follow the rules set in the DMG on creating new classes and templates to meet the needs of the class functions and features of a given superhero. For example, with Wolverine, we can create a new template called Mutant. We can base it off of a current template, but change specific abilities to meet the demands of the mutant in question (in this case Wolverine). So I'll start with it being an Outsider subtype, granting d8 for HD, Darkvision, 8+int skill points (x4 at first level), good will and reflex saves, proficient in simple and martial weapons, armor type to be defined. Breathe, don't necessarily have to sleep or eat. I'm going to choose Woodling from MM3 as a base template.

What is kept: gain +7 natural armor, Slam attack, DR 5/Slashing, Low Light Vision, immunity to: poison, magic sleep effects, critical hits, paralysis, polymorph. LA +3.

Change out SLA for Regeneration 20, weapon proficiency for natural attack. Replace Skill Bonus with Scent ability and a +3 to Survival, Knowledge Mechanics/Engineering, and pounce.

Racial bonus is a natural attack. (In the case of Wolverine it will be retractable claws.) Base DMG being 1d4.

Grant him the Adamantine Skeleton graft as a purchase item. Take a level in fighter, and you have workable level 5 character (presuming 4 HD taken) Increase claw attack to 1d6 and it has the Adamantine descriptor for sundering and beating DR.

(LA +3, HD=4d8, total starting level is 4th, +class levels: ECL without class levels is 7).

This right here is much easier than trying to build some strange series of classes to recreate the powers, and this above (something I did in 15 minutes) would be playable even.

[Zonugal]

Those 2 things seem very very close. I'm not entirely sure I understand.

So if we can pause cyclops for a second please. Lets look at captain america.

Captain America by Jaronk

Now which would you say that was?
That mechanically desribes (or close enough) how cap might work in D&D. He did that pretty much without the super-soilder serum being mentioned. Theoretically we could FIND something to fill that role out of all of D&D if we needed but, assuming this build fits you idea of captain america.
You come up with a background that fits, in a D&D sense and there you have Commander Cormyr or Colonel Aundair (who woke up after being frozen in the war or what have you).
Would this be an example of what you're talking about in 1 or 2?

The approaches are merely the initial philosophy taken within character construction. The first is which we see much more, "No, No... Superman can't be that class because it doesn't account for his ability to weave hammocks super quickly in addition to being able to craft stars out of nothing." I can't comment on the build above (which I have seen many types before) because it is, to a degree, a some-what vague build for a pretty easy character. It does push towards the second method as it is focusing on the absolute elements of Steve Rogers (shield-throwing and leading a team). The second method asks us to identify the key elements of a character and push on from there.

And regarding your point about the Super-Soldier Serum we do have that in DnD, the +5 tomes & manuals. If we subjugate someone to all of those we can pump their stats up to an appropriate amount.


I actually think Cyclops however would do well to be a warlock, followed by levels of Crusader, for white raven things mostly, but he has a focus on diplomacy and battlefield tactics.
It might be better to make him a SilverBrow human with refluffed meta breatfeats. Lastly yes we'd do okay to make him a sorceror with Ocular spell. Nothing Wrong with that perse. It all depends to what level you want to focus on his eyebeams vs his leadership. Thats what he gets.

And this harkens back to my points above, we have to focus on the absolute elements of Cyclops (eye blasts and leadership). Your build does a pretty good job (depending on how much you want to focus on the eye blasts, which I put much more emphasis towards).


Sorry, I must respectfully disagree. D&D rules are not designed with superheroes in mind, nor any non-D&D character base in mind. By looking to the strict rules of the D&D universe we are not only limited (may not be able to recreate powers at all) but to make an effective character (as in playable) we end up with hypercomplexity and crossing of classes.

Past tenth level DnD characters pretty much are Superheroes. They are indestructible, un-killable and face challenges that cross the planes in scope. It is simply a matter of approaching the adaptation in the right way (with respect to the two mediums and the transition found in both).


Rather, we should follow the rules set in the DMG on creating new classes and templates to meet the needs of the class functions and features of a given superhero. For example, with Wolverine, we can create a new template called Mutant. We can base it off of a current template, but change specific abilities to meet the demands of the mutant in question (in this case Wolverine). So I'll start with it being an Outsider subtype, granting d8 for HD, Darkvision, 8+int skill points (x4 at first level), good will and reflex saves, proficient in simple and martial weapons, armor type to be defined. Breathe, don't necessarily have to sleep or eat. I'm going to choose Woodling from MM3 as a base template.

What is kept: gain +7 natural armor, Slam attack, DR 5/Slashing, Low Light Vision, immunity to: poison, magic sleep effects, critical hits, paralysis, polymorph. LA +3.

Change out SLA for Regeneration 20, weapon proficiency for natural attack. Replace Skill Bonus with Scent ability and a +3 to Survival, Knowledge Mechanics/Engineering, and pounce.

Racial bonus is a natural attack. (In the case of Wolverine it will be retractable claws.) Base DMG being 1d4.

Grant him the Adamantine Skeleton graft as a purchase item. Take a level in fighter, and you have workable level 5 character (presuming 4 HD taken) Increase claw attack to 1d6 and it has the Adamantine descriptor for sundering and beating DR.

(LA +3, HD=4d8, total starting level is 4th, +class levels: ECL without class levels is 7).

This right here is much easier than trying to build some strange series of classes to recreate the powers, and this above (something I did in 15 minutes) would be playable even.

Your method has no groundings in RAW, which almost all groups will fall back on as a foundational method to gaming. When we begin to use hard home-brewing we might as well throw out our source books. Not too mention that most home-brew is very imbalanced and extremely biased to those who created it.

But perhaps let us examine your template. The first whoa that jumped out at my was using the Outsider type which honestly doesn't possess much synergy with mutants. If anything the Aberration and Monstrous Humanoid types are more appropriate, but let us continue.

The next whoa is that you are loading your template up with far too much (obviously being biased in the creation to it). Regeneration 20, pounce, NA +7; all of that and more!?! No DM is going to allow that, most players would feel guilty playing with that. It isn't practical.

Now if we approached a character like Wolverine (pretty complex) with the second method we would first identify the prime elements of the character.


Claws
Regeneration
Tough
Survivalist


Let us start with a race. Now I'd love to start with something exotic but well I have this nice template called a Quasilycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a). Animal characteristics (that awful Wolverine hair) and DR 10/Silver offers us a lot of resistance to damage early on, and for LA +1 it is a quick purchase. So we'll go with something simple like a Quasilycanthrope (Wolverine) Human for our race. We'll have a problem with the fact that Wolverine doesn't age but this isn't super important (and it'll almost never come up in a DnD game). Another attractive option is Shifter but I digress...

Now we head onto class where we'll have to focus on the other aspects. One option is to do a traditional Swift Hunter (very nice...) but I think we can do a lot more with some multi-classing. Wilderness Rogue 2/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion and Wolf totem acfs) 2/Totemist 2/Warblade 4/Warshaper 5/Warblade 1. We'll nab us a lot of strong combat options, some ample skills (the ones we need), a nice side-focus towards intelligence in battle, survival factors like fast healing & such from Warshaper and some much needed maneuvers (Iron Heart for the protection, Stone Dragon for cutting through obstacles and Tiger Claw for well... Yeah.).

All of that is legal by RAW and will be acknowledged at any gaming table. It is a practical build for all intents and purposes.

[Greenish]

Not too mention that most home-brew is very imbalanced and extremely biased to those who created it.Well, that's a result of Sturgeon's Law more than anything.


We'll have a problem with the fact that Wolverine doesn't ageDoesn't he just age (much) slower? Anyhow, there's a feat in one of the Dragon Magazines, Touched by History (or something to that effect) which stops you from aging.


Wilderness Rogue 2/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion and Wolf totem acfs) 2/Totemist 2/Warblade 4/Warshaper 5/Warblade 1.5th level of Warshaper doesn't give a quasilycanthrope anything useful.

[AMFV]

I can figure out most of the generic ones. There was one superhero (villain) I was trying to figure out if it was doable in D&D. How would one do the Juggernaut, regeneration would work, but essentially the juggernaut almost completely resists all damage. Anyways I figured I'd ask here and see if anybody had any ideas I didn't.

[Zonugal]

The juggernaut? Maybe combine Bone Knight and Legacy Champion? Another idea was combining War-Mind with Legacy Champion. Dungeoncrasher Fighter is a pretty good option for starting the build off.

[Kaje]

Iron Man - Human Artificer / Renegade Mastermaker

Hulk - Human Artificer / Stoneblessed (Goliath) / Mountain Rage Barbarian / War Hulk

Captain America - Human Paladin / Crusader / Warblade / Bloodstorm Blade

Thor - Aasimar Cleric / Paladin / Stormlord / Crusader (with javelin enhancements switched to warhammer)?

Hawkeye - Human Scout-heavy Swift Hunter

Black Widow - Human Rogue

Professor X - Elan Telepath

Jean Grey/Phoenix - Kalashtar Kineticist / Psion Uncarnate

Storm - Human Sorcerer / Stormcaster

Wolverine - Shifter Ranger / Barbarian / Totemist / Warshaper / Warblade/ Bloodclaw Master

Cyclops - Human Warlock (focusing entirely on blasting invocations)

Nightcrawler - Duskling Unarmed Swordsage / Crinti Shadow Marauder

Mystique - Changeling Rogue / Warshaper

Sabertooth - Shifter Ranger / Barbarian / Warshaper / Warblade / Bloodclaw Master

Human Torch - Human Unarmed Swordsage / Pyrokineticist

Thing - Human Mineral Warrior Fighter / Barbarian / Reaping Mauler / Warblade

Ghost Rider - Hellbred Paladin / Crusader / Hellreaver

Spider-Man - Human Sorcerer / Swordsage / Yathchol Webrider

[Hiro Protagonest]

Captain America - Human Paladin / Crusader / Warblade / Bloodstorm Blade

I'm just not seeing the paladin. It's not exactly like the super soldier serum maxed out his charisma and gave him at-will detect evil.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm just not seeing the paladin. It's not exactly like the super soldier serum maxed out his charisma and gave him at-will detect evil.

Well there isn't a rule that forces you to USE Detect evil, and I'll be damned if the Cap doesn't have high Cha (or at least that is my perception of him due the movie... haven't read his comics yet)

[Zonugal]

A simple dip into Paladin does bring some nice perks but it also brings a lot of restrictions to a build, a lot.

Maybe with ample selection of nice alternate class features and such you could make it ideal but with Crusader being so prominent in the build it seems out of place.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Most dips into paladin are either 2 levles (Divine grace) or 4 levels (Turn undead to fuel divine feats), really smite evil 1/day and detect evil aren't enough to warrant a dip so restrictive (as you said).

[Zonugal]

Now you know what is a nice resource for templates for most superheroes in DnD 3.5?

Dungeon Master's Guide 2.

Just take a peak at all the unique abilities for NPCs (pg. 157). For example Intellectual Prodigy would work terrifically for someone like Tony Stark.

[ProGun]

Eh, its pretty debatable:

<edit>

Wonderwoman is not as strong as Superman but is a better fighter and has no weaknesses. Superman, on the other hand, is weak to any magic widget Wonder Woman pulls out.

<edit>


Sorry for coming to the party late, just found this thread.

Supes has weaknesses and vulnerabilities (magic, non-yellow sun, kryptonite) and this is why Batman would always be able to beat him if he needed to (keeps a pair of kryptonite laden gloves in a lead lined compartment on his utility belt 'just in case.')

BTW, Wonder Woman does have a pretty significant weakness. She could be defeated by a cowboy (emphasis BOY, it has to be male) if he goes first and lands a lasso on her. She looses all her powers if she is bound by a man. WW is the ultimate submissive, LOL! This weakness isn't as well known as Supes' several weaknesses, but as pointed out most aren't familiar with her status as one of the Big 3 in the Justice League either. If they don't even know enough about how powerful she is, they certainly will have overlooked her vulnerability.

[Midnight_v]

I realize... I disslike a lot of the simple answers to these builds.

[Yuki Akuma]

Wonder Woman is only meant to lose her powers if she is willingly bound by a man.

Not that all writers are consistent on this.

[Kaje]

Shrug. The paladin's not necessary. Just seemed the Cha to saves worked well for Cap. Guess he'll have to settle for the crusader's weaker version.

[Zonugal]

I realize... I disslike a lot of the simple answers to these builds.

Indeed, same here to an extend. Although there are some simplistic options (primarily psionics) which work well just on their own.

[Xtomjames]

The approaches are merely the initial philosophy taken within character construction. The first is which we see much more, "No, No... Superman can't be that class because it doesn't account for his ability to weave hammocks super quickly in addition to being able to craft stars out of nothing." I can't comment on the build above (which I have seen many types before) because it is, to a degree, a some-what vague build for a pretty easy character. It does push towards the second method as it is focusing on the absolute elements of Steve Rogers (shield-throwing and leading a team). The second method asks us to identify the key elements of a character and push on from there.

And regarding your point about the Super-Soldier Serum we do have that in DnD, the +5 tomes & manuals. If we subjugate someone to all of those we can pump their stats up to an appropriate amount.



And this harkens back to my points above, we have to focus on the absolute elements of Cyclops (eye blasts and leadership). Your build does a pretty good job (depending on how much you want to focus on the eye blasts, which I put much more emphasis towards).



Past tenth level DnD characters pretty much are Superheroes. They are indestructible, un-killable and face challenges that cross the planes in scope. It is simply a matter of approaching the adaptation in the right way (with respect to the two mediums and the transition found in both).



Your method has no groundings in RAW, which almost all groups will fall back on as a foundational method to gaming. When we begin to use hard home-brewing we might as well throw out our source books. Not too mention that most home-brew is very imbalanced and extremely biased to those who created it.

But perhaps let us examine your template. The first whoa that jumped out at my was using the Outsider type which honestly doesn't possess much synergy with mutants. If anything the Aberration and Monstrous Humanoid types are more appropriate, but let us continue.

The next whoa is that you are loading your template up with far too much (obviously being biased in the creation to it). Regeneration 20, pounce, NA +7; all of that and more!?! No DM is going to allow that, most players would feel guilty playing with that. It isn't practical.

Now if we approached a character like Wolverine (pretty complex) with the second method we would first identify the prime elements of the character.


Claws
Regeneration
Tough
Survivalist


Let us start with a race. Now I'd love to start with something exotic but well I have this nice template called a Quasilycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a). Animal characteristics (that awful Wolverine hair) and DR 10/Silver offers us a lot of resistance to damage early on, and for LA +1 it is a quick purchase. So we'll go with something simple like a Quasilycanthrope (Wolverine) Human for our race. We'll have a problem with the fact that Wolverine doesn't age but this isn't super important (and it'll almost never come up in a DnD game). Another attractive option is Shifter but I digress...

Now we head onto class where we'll have to focus on the other aspects. One option is to do a traditional Swift Hunter (very nice...) but I think we can do a lot more with some multi-classing. Wilderness Rogue 2/Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion and Wolf totem acfs) 2/Totemist 2/Warblade 4/Warshaper 5/Warblade 1. We'll nab us a lot of strong combat options, some ample skills (the ones we need), a nice side-focus towards intelligence in battle, survival factors like fast healing & such from Warshaper and some much needed maneuvers (Iron Heart for the protection, Stone Dragon for cutting through obstacles and Tiger Claw for well... Yeah.).

All of that is legal by RAW and will be acknowledged at any gaming table. It is a practical build for all intents and purposes.

I beg to differ again: First off the RAW rules for creating a template are pretty bloody clear. If we are talking about RAW, then you should really re-read your DMG creating new Races 173, Creating New Classes page 175, DMG II Designing Prestige Classes page 203, MM I Creating the Monster page 296. The RAW rules for creating new classes are built in. It makes more sense to use the rules for creating new stuff to fit the given character rather than trying to create the given character out of things not designed to do so.

It might be great fun to do what you're suggesting, but it's impractical.

As for the LA, as I created the Wolverine template, it's an LA of +7 with 7 levels of outsider HD. Base ECL of 14. There are plenty of monsters of lower LA that have regeneration 5-20 and far many more abilities than Wolverine there.

For example: Planetars
Solars
Chain Devils
Horned Devils
Ice Devils
Pit Fiends
Ogre Mages
Tarrasque
Tendriculous
Atropal
Dream Larvae
Hecatoncheires
Infernals
Phaethon
Phane
Xixecals
Hagunemnon
Pseudotroll (duh)
Uvuudaum
Trolls
All the Trolls in MM3 are LA +5-+8 and have many of the same abilities as the template I described, including incredible blow, Rake, and Rend.

Why I used Outsider: it is a base, not an absolute. It provides for the various bonuses often found in mutants (high resiliency to pain, damage, high levels of strength and endurance, mental capacity etc). In many cases mutants live longer and in the case of Wolverine specifically he's more or less immortal.

Outsider is the best choice for a humanoid mutant. Natural Armor +7, because presumably if you're playing a game with Marvel Mutants in it, it's not going to be proficient with armor and it's suitable for Wolverine. Regen is also applicable to Wolverine, not necessarily fast healing (though I could see Regen 5 Fast Healing 5 rather than Regen 20).

Scent is rather oblique as an ability and pounce makes a lot of sense for the character (it's not as though I gave him a super jump skill or rake). Immunities are also make sense, while at the same time vulnerabilities do to. (Bearing in mind it was late for me when I wrote that initial post). The Adamantine skeleton makes him vulnerable to electricity and magnetics, it also means he can't regenerate from his skeleton.

Basically your disapproval, while interesting, doesn't dismiss the fact that creating a template is more appropriate then trying to fit a character to several other classes to gain some abilities that resemble what the mutant/superhero has.

I mean frankly if I really wanted to go homebrew I'd go with a completely original template (which I didn't do above).


Mutant Template True Homebrew: LA +4, HD 4d8, gain Low Light vision, proficiency with natural weapons (if applicable).

+4 to two ability scores.
Roll three times, if you roll the same thing more than once re-roll.
0-10% Immune to Poisons and Disease
11-21% Immune to Mind Affecting spells, SLA, supernatural abilities, or Extraordinary abilities (including illusions and shadow descriptor spells)
22-32% DR ( 1+Con Modifier; 1-2 Roll on the table below to determine what type)
33-43% SR (15+Level) or Elemental Resistance (choose one element gain Resistance 15+Level)
44-54% Supernatural or Extraordinary ability (2-2 roll on the table below)
55-65% Natural Armor (1+Con Modifier)
66-76% Fast Healing (1+Con Modifier)
77-87% Regeneration (1+Con Modifier)
88-98% Psionics (1+Int Modifier psionics abilities, as per Psion of appropriate level your LA).
99-100% Gain an extra ability from the list above.

1-2
0-10% Magic
11-21% Cold Iron
22-32% Adamantine
33-43% Silver
44-54% +1
55-65% +2
66-76% +3
77-87% Element of your choice
88-98% DR universal (as per Adamantine DR)
99-100% reroll.

2-2
0-7% Gain three maneuvers as per Swordsage/Warblade/Cruesader (your choice) of LA level equivalent.
8-15% Natural weapons (claws, tail, bite attack) does damage as per appropriate for a creature of your size.
16-24% Elemental Control (as per the psionic or spell; choose one: Control Water, Control Fire, Control Earth, Control Wind)
25-35% Heightened Senses (gain permanent Blindsight or Tremorsense, gain +4 to spot and listen checks)
36-46% Fly (Roll again 0-49% is Winged, 50-100% is not winged).
47-57% Super Strength (gain a +15 to your strength ability score)
58-65% Super Speed (gain supernatural speed as per the Quickling)
66-71% Elasticity (Gain reach as a extraordinary ability, +5 to your current reach, +5/ every 5 levels there after).
72-78% Mental Purity (automatically make all Will Saves)
79-85% Premonition (Gain Divination as a SU ability, +4 to initiative)
86-90% Magnetist (Gain control over magnetic items ~ treat as greater telekinesis but for only metal objects; gain the ability to Slow any metal projectile fired at you.)
91-95% Supernatural Acrobatics (Gain +10 to Jump, Climb, Balance, and Tumble, gain Spiderclimb)
96-100% Re-roll twice, gain both abilities.


How does that work for you?

[Zonugal]

I beg to differ again: First off the RAW rules for creating a template are pretty bloody clear. If we are talking about RAW, then you should really re-read your DMG creating new Races 173, Creating New Classes page 175, DMG II Designing Prestige Classes page 203, MM I Creating the Monster page 296. The RAW rules for creating new classes are built in. It makes more sense to use the rules for creating new stuff to fit the given character rather than trying to create the given character out of things not designed to do so.

It might be great fun to do what you're suggesting, but it's impractical.

While there are rules established for creating home-brew material no one is going to respect it. It is a joke, we all know it. When home-brew is called upon it is suitable but regarding this project it is not a solid fit. If we should fall into the hole of home-brew we begin to cater towards, and I am coining this, the Fallacy of the Lighting Warrior. You are home-brewing specifically to what you exactly need without balance or an objective stance. There are no limitations and thus nothing to stop you from making anything you want.

Let us take your example from below with a character like Magneto. He is super complex and incredibly powerful, as a player he is a campaign ender (the DM has to fold up shop because of your power). Your model doesn't even touch the surface for all of his powers. You have your fingers on the globe regarding magnetic control but only to a basic degree. It says nothing to his ability to create force-fields, sustain & heal himself from the magnetic fields of the planet, to have limited mind-control on humanoids, ect...

Now of course building any template for this kind of power would be hard. But I might say that there are already rules in place to imitate this and beyond. First of all re-break down Magneto as to fit within DnD. This means absolving him of his expert knowledge in genetics, chemistry and such. But this also means breaking down his entire essence and re-molding it into something unique. Magneto is a master of metal --> Magneto is a master of iron --> Magneto can extract iron from blood --> Magneto has a connection to blood as a vehicle to control to world he occupies --> Magneto in DnD is a blood-focused mage (flavored to a degree with a specialization in iron). So where do we go from there? Well Mangeto is a powerful, noble and tragic character. He's a character who easily recruits and maintains a wide collection of followers and minions. He's a pale, elitist European aristocrat to a degree.

He's a vampire...

But he's no ordinary vampire, for Magneto has no master. He built his power up through tragedy and suffering, he is his own master. With the level of power & influence he carriers in the Marvel universe it might be appropriate to make him into a Vampire Lord. Now he is transformed, he has the power a character like Magneto should possess. Now the important distinction to make is this character isn't Magneto, he could never be Magneto because this is DnD. What this character does is draw heavy inspiration and imagery from Magneto and adapt that into the scope and domain of DnD. Now we just slap on a simple build like Wizard 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Red Mage 5 and we have a character who commands a legion of devoted followers, flies around the battlefield throwing destruction, has at will Telekinesis, and has the power to rip the blood (read: iron) from someone to power his abilities.

But that was sure long and hopefully a point can be found in there. You aren't playing DnD when you begin to home-brew to the sky. You aren't using the pre-existing fabric of the game but expanding on it (poorly) to execute your one-sided ideas.


Why I used Outsider: it is a base, not an absolute. It provides for the various bonuses often found in mutants (high resiliency to pain, damage, high levels of strength and endurance, mental capacity etc). In many cases mutants live longer and in the case of Wolverine specifically he's more or less immortal.

Outsider is the best choice for a humanoid mutant.

Why is Wolverine subject to a banishment effect? I'll offer you up that simple question. Maybe a couple others? Why is Banshee immune to a default Charm Person spell? Why is Rogue unable of being resurrected or raised from the dead? Because there are wider implications in slapping the Outsider type onto a creature. But this is too brief, so let us delve in deeper.

A mutant used to be this:


Human Type: A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

So we have to use this as our foundation before we trigger the mutation and change that type. Well, here are the two I suggested...


Monstrous Humanoid: Monstrous humanoids are similar to humanoids, but with monstrous or animalistic features. They often have magical abilities as well.

Aberration: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.

Now Aberration could be considered more appropriate for those far-out there mutants and spectacular beings in the Mutant community, but for all intents and purposes Monstrous Humanoid fits a Mutant pretty well. They're humans but slightly different through magical abilities/features. Now let us examine your suggestion.


Outsider: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

That sounds nothing like a mutant, nothing. Its a great type with some superb features but it really applies to beings like the Silver Surfer, not Jubilee...

So what do we have here? You are cherry picking for your own benefit, you are being biased in your selection of a type. Instead of picking a balanced, thematically-appropriate type you went for the one with the most bells ' whistles.


Basically your disapproval, while interesting, doesn't dismiss the fact that creating a template is more appropriate then trying to fit a character to several other classes to gain some abilities that resemble what the mutant/superhero has.

I mean frankly if I really wanted to go homebrew I'd go with a completely original template (which I didn't do above).

How does that work for you?

You are using so much home-brew that you might as well be playing Mutants and Masterminds. You aren't using DnD as it is, but rather configuring it in some twisted surgery in which you are creating bad home-brew to simulate an adaptation which intrinsically doesn't work. You are only thinking in a one-road way as opposed to taking a creative perspective to the adaptation.

So no, it does not work for me.

[Greenish]

But this also means breaking down his entire essence and re-molding it into something unique. Magneto is a master of metal --> Magneto is a master of iron --> Magneto can extract iron from blood --> Magneto has a connection to blood as a vehicle to control to world he occupies --> Magneto in DnD is a blood-focused mage (flavored to a degree with a specialization in iron).Eh, I'd go with that metal-specialized druid variant.

[Shadow Lord]

Are Green Lanterns refluffed Shadowcraft Mages?

[NNescio]

Are Green Lanterns refluffed Shadowcraft Mages?

Lightcraft Mages. Refluffing done.

[Zonugal]

Eh, I'd go with that metal-specialized druid variant.

Yeah, to a degree. I just really love the Vampire Lord and blood imagery associated with a guy who can do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNbXq2RNyC4&feature=related) (I mean watch it, that guy is a high-level wizard if I ever saw one...).

http://thewolfmancometh.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/x2-x-men-2-united-magneto-sir-ian-mackellen.jpg?w=630&h=420
http://mathewpeet.org/images/Xmen2_1.png

Also, sometimes you really need to crank out that Circle Magic... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5RoSt7aoUM&feature=related)

http://www.sapenn.demon.co.uk/lw3d/gallery/X3/xmen3bridge1.jpg

[Greenish]

Yeah, to a degree. I just really love the Vampire Lord and blood imagery associated with a guy who can do this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNbXq2RNyC4&feature=related) (I mean watch it, that guy is a high-level wizard if I ever saw one...).Or metal master. Druids are full casters, too. :smalltongue:

[Edit]: Besides, he can only pull that off because… well, you know. Normal iron in blood is not magnetic.

[Zonugal]

All I will say is:

Different strokes for different folks.

EDIT: Now you want a really hard guy to adapt from comics, DR. DOOM!!! The guy is a partial sorcerer, master artificer and more. Oh, he's a difficult one...

[Greenish]

EDIT: Now you want a really hard guy to adapt from comics, DR. DOOM!!! The guy is a partial sorcerer, master artificer and more. Oh, he's a difficult one...Artificer. Epic level if necessary, probably not. Artificers cast spells, no need for levels in other casters.

I'm not too familiar with the guy, but I'm willing to bet he has not a trick a high level, high optimization artificer can't replicate.

[Shadow Lord]

What about Doctor Strange when he was Sorcerer Supreme? I mean... he binded things, he cast spells, he did all sorts of things!

[Hiro Protagonest]

What about Doctor Strange when he was Sorcerer Supreme? I mean... he binded things, he cast spells, he did all sorts of things!

Full caster with Planar Binding?

[Zonugal]

What about Doctor Strange when he was Sorcerer Supreme? I mean... he binded things, he cast spells, he did all sorts of things!

Sorcerer & Binder into Anima Mage ending with Incantrix?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

EDIT: The Hulk is an odd one. Human artificer 2 or factotum 2 or human paragon 2 / stoneblessed 3 / mountain rage barbarian X / war hulk X.

I went with Monk2/Stoneblessed3/Crusader1/Barbarian1 (mountan rage Pounce)/Warhulk/Hulking Hurler2/Frenzied Berserker1

Monk was for feat prereqs, Overhwelming Style nets him Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush, but it also nets Evasion and solid core saves.

Also, he was a Strongheart Halfling. In normal every-day attire, he's got a Strength of 6.

When he Hulks out, though... I think it was something like a STR of 42, once you take into consideration the +20 from Warhulk and the two size category increases.

And, of course, Batman's Nemesis is featured in my sig.

[Zonugal]

I think a suitable Hulk build is Ardent 3/Monk 2/Ardent 12/Hulking Hurler 3. The problem I have with most Hulk builds is they completely dump all aspects of Bruce Banner in the character.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think a suitable Hulk build is Ardent 3/Monk 2/Ardent 12/Hulking Hurler 3. The problem I have with most Hulk builds is they completely dump all aspects of Bruce Banner in the character.

I disagree with this. And your build has nothing in common with the Hulk. He has no ability to rage, for one.

[Midnight_v]

I think a suitable Hulk build is Ardent 3/Monk 2/Ardent 12/Hulking Hurler 3. The problem I have with most Hulk builds is they completely dump all aspects of Bruce Banner in the character.

At first I wasn't going to try this cause its contriversial likely. Buuuut....

I think the Hulk is an archivist.
Cause thats what bruce banner is.
The somehow manges to cast Giant size, beastlasnds ferocity + Delay Death, and likely some kind of druid healing over time spell.

He probbably has permanent delay death or beastlands ferocity using divine persists or something.

Archvist buffed all to hell.

[Zonugal]

I disagree with this. And your build has nothing in common with the Hulk. He has no ability to rage, for one.

Oh? OH?!? RAWR!!!!!!

The ardent offers buffing that far eclipses that of any mundane mode, in nearly every way, without sacrificing the Bruce Banner aspect of the character. I participated in a competition with a guy (skydragonknight) who built a pretty good version of the Hulk. Lets look at your standard buffing process:

Round 1- Standard: Schism 7 PP 20 rounds, Swift: Extended Temporal Acceleration – 17 PP 4 rounds of apparent time (Lose Focus).

Temp Round 1: Move: Regain Focus, Standard: Overchannel+3 Extended Animal Affinity(All stats but Dex) 23 PP 40 Mins, Schism: Extended Energy Resistance 7pp 40 Mins Swift Linked Extended Adrenaline Boost+(Greater) Metamorphosis 18 PP 40 Min

Temp Round 2 Schism: Extended Inconstant Location 13 PP 20 rounds (Lose Focus), Move: Gain Focus, Standard: Extended True Metabolism 15 PP 40 Mins, Swift: Overchannel+3 Linked Extended Adrenaline Boost+Defensive Precognition 23 PP

Temp Round 3 Move: Head towards Throwable Object, Standard: (Psionic Freedom of Movement if regular Metamorphosis was used), Swift: Linked Extended Adrenaline Boost+Psychofeedback 10 PP 40 rounds, Schism: Extended Psychofeedback 11PP (Lose Focus)

Temp Round 4 Move: Regain Focus, Swift: Linked Extended Adrenaline Boost+Extended Range 20 PP 40 rounds, Schism: Overchannel+3 Thicken Skin 16 PP, Standard: Extended Vigor 20 PP 40 Min

13d8 damage -30 healing = 24 damage, but +40 hit points from increased Con from Animal Affinity = Net gain.
200 PP used in buffing!

Summary of Buffs
Schism: Extra Mental Action each round following manifesting Schism. ML = 14 (20 rounds)
Animal Affinity: +4 Enhancement bonus to Str, Con, Int, Wis, Cha (40 minutes)
Energy Resistance: Reduce the damage taken from Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire and Sonic by 30. (28 minutes)
(Greater) Metamorphosis: Assume the form of a Fire Giant(Metamorphosis) or Storm Giant(Greater Metamorphosis) Power used depends on if XP costs are allowed. (40 minutes)
Inconstant Location: As a swift action can teleport up to land speed. Reflavored as being constantly mobile, jumping over obstacles, etc. (20 rounds)
True Metabolism: Regain 10 Hit Points each round, can reattach lost limbs. (40 minutes)
Defensive Precognition: +8 insight bonus to Armor Class and Saving Throws. (40 minutes)
Psionic Freedom of Movement: If Greater Metamorphosis is not allowed for XP reasons, this power will be used. As Freedom of Movement. (40 Minutes)
Psychofeedback (x2): Take ability burn in mental scores to increase physical ability scores. +31 Str -18 Int -13 Cha. (28 rounds; 40 rounds)
Extended Range: Thrown object has it’s range increment increased x8. (40 rounds)
Thicken Skin: +6 enchancement bonus to natural armor (16 minutes)
Vigor: 100 Temporary Hit Points (40 minutes)

So let us look at the change between Bruce Banner and the Hulk


Bruce Banner
Male Kalastar, Monk 2/Ardent 6/Hulking Hurler 2/Ardent+10
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Psionic)
Hit Dice: 16d6+2d8+2d10+40 = 119 Hit Points
Initiative: +0 (+2 while focused)
Speed: 30 ft (40 ft while focused)
Armor Class: 18 = 10+5(Wis)+3(Monk) Touch: 18 Flat-Footed:18
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+14
Full Attack: +14/14/14/9/4 Unarmed Strike 2d8-1
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Qualities: Mindlink 1/day, +2 vs. Mind-affecting
Saves: Fort+10 Ref+8 Will+18 (Base Saves: +8/+11/+13; -3 Reflex from Flaw)
Abilities: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 17 Wis 20 Cha 12
Skills: Concentration 20 ranks, Knowledge(Psionics) 23 ranks, Knowledge(any two) 19 ranks, Psicraft 20 ranks. Autohypnosis 5 ranks.
Feats: 1- Linked Power, Monk 1-Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk 1- Monastic Training, Flaw(Poor Reflexes)- Practiced Manifester(Ardent), Monk 2- Tashalatora(Ardent), 3 -Point Blank Shot(Animal Affinity to qualify), Conflict(Ardent 1)-WF: Dagger, 6-Power Attack(Animal Affinity and Physical Power mantle ability to qualify), 9-Psionic Meditation, HH1-Snatch Arrows, HH1-Throw Anything, 12-Brutal Throw, 15-Extend Power, 18-Overchannel
Environment: Urban
Organization: Unique
Challenge Rating: 20
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Languages: Common, three others. Doesn't matter which.
Level Adjustment: +0

Storm Giant form via Greater Metamorphosis

Hulk
Male Kalastar, Monk 2/Ardent 6/Hulking Hurler 2/Ardent+10
Size/Type: Huge Humanoid (Psionic)
Hit Dice: 16d6+2d8+2d10+80 = 135/159 Hit Points +100 Temporary Hit Points
Initiative: +2 (+4 while focused)
Speed: 50 ft (60 ft while focused) Inconstant Location
Armor Class: 46 = 10-2(Size)+2(Dex)+7(Wis)+3(Monk)+8(Insight)+18(Natura l) Touch: 28 Flat-Footed:44
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+47
Full Attack: +45/45/45/40/35 Unarmed Strike 4d8+32 Or +43(or DC 53 Reflex) Car (15ft + Extend Range)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft
Special Qualities: Mindlink 1/day, +2 vs. Mind-affecting, Freedom of Movement(race), Immunity to Electricity(subtype)
Saves: Fort+24 Ref+18 Will+28 (Base Saves: +8/+11/+13;+8 insight on all saves, -3 Reflex from Flaw)
Abilities: Str 74 Dex 14 Con 27 Int 3 Wis 24 Cha 3
Skills: Concentration 20 ranks, Knowledge(Psionics) 23 ranks, Knowledge(any two) 19 ranks, Psicraft 20 ranks. Autohypnosis 5 ranks.
Feats: 1- Linked Power, Monk 1-Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk 1- Monastic Training, Flaw(Poor Reflexes)- Practiced Manifester(Ardent), Monk 2- Tashalatora(Ardent), 3 -Point Blank Shot(Animal Affinity to qualify), Conflict(Ardent 1)-WF: Dagger, 6-Power Attack(Animal Affinity and Physical Power mantle ability to qualify), 9-Psionic Meditation, HH1-Snatch Arrows, HH1-Throw Anything, 12-Brutal Throw, 15-Extend Power, 18-Overchannel
Environment: Urban
Organization: Unique (Thank God)
Challenge Rating: 20
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Languages: Common, three others. Doesn't matter which.
Level Adjustment: +0

Combat

HULK SMASH! Move around the battlefield with Inconstant Location and full attack with Flurry of Blows for LOTS of pain. If the opponent is out of reach, find a parked vehicle, pick it up and throw it at them (uses Str on attack rolls thanks to Brutal throw) – Hulk has 156,672 lb as a light load for Fire Giant form and 954,396 as a light load for Storm giant form, so even a semi trailer (30,000lb +cargo) should be well within his grasp. With the Extended Range power, his range increment is 80 ft as a Fire Giant or 120 as a Storm Giant, meaning he can potentially throw that semi 600 ft ( 5 range increments).

He has the Area Attack Trick so that he has the option of target the opponent’s Reflex save instead of Armor Class. Overburdened Heave was unnecessary, since objects of that weight aren’t reliably found on the battlefield. Meteoric Strike was tempting with his massive strength, but I opted for Options over Overkill. For reference, a Volkswagen Beetle weighs 1800 lb while a Semi w/trailer weighs 30000 lb. For combat purposes I’ll assume an “average” car weighs 3000 lb and thus deals 18d6+Str points of damage, which is nothing special at 20th level, but sometimes you get lucky and run across a truck or SUV for more damage.

Every round, Schism can manifest either Vigor or Immovability as appropriate. His role in a team is a primary tank (hit points, energy resistance, damage reduction 15/- from Immovability) as well as a melee and ranged damage dealer. His hulk powers are represented by his incredible strength in his alternate form and his ability to smash enemies with his bare fists, as well as breaking stuff(Power Attack). He can also pick up large objects and chuck them a far distance. The race Kalastar was chosen both for the mechanical boon of using Quori embedded shards and the flavor of there being a separate entity (more or less) within Bruce’s subconscious mind. I've given him good mental stats and knowledge skills to represent Bruce Banner's intellectual side.

[Coidzor]

What about Deadpool and Squirrel Girl??

Deadpool - Joker Bard? - mostly just randomly throwing that out there.

Squirrel Girl - The Dreaded non-kobold Pun-Pun.

[Midnight_v]

I've got the weapon X program down pat pretty much perfect in D&D.
So meh whatever I'll prolly post some stuff on that tonight.

While I do think Hulk is an Archivists with persisted Beastlands Ferocity and Delay death...
I find myself thinking... with respect to Bruce Banner...

Hulk could also be a psion, or something also. The king of smack is a very hulk like build.

Here's Colossus.

Changling Mineral warrior
Monk 7/Barbarian 1/Warshaper 1 (Ecl 10)
Goliath Mountain Rage subsittution level.
Feats
1 Racial Emulation
3 Improved Unarmed Strike
6 Fling Ally
9 Extra Rage
-----------------
It might be hulking hurler and fighter instead but He's no fighter he's really a peaceful very zen dude who really would like to paint.
Be careful though he can totally throw wolverine at you.

Piotr Rasputin, walks around most of the time as a handsome farmboy, however when threatened he Emulates a Mithral Warrior Goliath and activates his rage class feature giving him actual large size.

For continued advancement he takes fighter levels or Warhulk levels so he can really throw anything.

[Zonugal]

I think regarding Thor I really like a Ghaele savage progression. It isn't as orthodox as a Cleric/Stormlord but it is very exotic and different (as Thor should be) from other types of characters. Very powerful, very unique.

I like it quite a bit.

[Talbot]

Mildly off-topic and several pages too late, but whoever said Wondy was one of DC's top three most powerful DC heroes should read more DC. But don't feel too bad; Supes isn't one of 'em either.

There was a thread a few years ago on the DC Boards trying to list 100 DC superheroes who would consistently beat Superman in a fight (interestingly, the board eventually agreed Wondy belonged on it, with the cutoff being 2/3 fights). It didn't quite make it to 100, topping out somewhere in the high 60s to low 70s depending on what you thought of a few borderline cases (Wondy, for instance).

Now, granted, not all the characters on the list were necessarily more POWERFUL than Supes, as a lot just had power-sets that made them ideal for fighting him (Obsidian and Deadman are two of those off the top of my head), but....

Anyways, a few of the absolute top-tier heavy hitters:

The Spectre
The Phantom Stranger
Ion
The Ray (not so much lately, but technically nothing's been retconned)
Triumph (currently (probably) dead)
Wally West

/thread derail

[Midnight_v]

I wanted to say that when they say "Top" chars I'm pretty sure its some kind of popularity thing. DC comics refers to Clark, Bruce, and Diana as "the big 3" thats why people feel that way. HOWEVER, I wanted to add that I'm a fan of triumph though I've only seen him with the LKZ powerset, and in the elseworlds story JLA: Destiny though I've found that the char was actually based on yet another "Superman".
It gets wonky when you look too deep, at these things about how powerful vs popular when we start using terms like "Top characters" etc.

I also realize from my Colossus post that I should format these builds much better and I'll give that a try in a bit.

[Zonugal]

Midnight__V, have you looked at possibly throwing a level of Binder into your Colossus build as to grant him the ability to immediately summon armor all around himself?

[Yuki Akuma]

Midnight__V, have you looked at possibly throwing a level of Binder into your Colossus build as to grant him the ability to immediately summon armor all around himself?

He doesn't summon armour, his skin turns into living steel. Isn't there a Wu Jen spell for that?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He doesn't summon armour, his skin turns into living steel. Isn't there a Wu Jen spell for that?

I don't know about Wu Jen, but there's a Wiz/Sorc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ironBody.htm) spell for that...

Actually, it might be easier to go Divine Champion with the Earth domain. Most of the other earth spells can probably be refluffed as destruction of public property through profligate use of muscles...

[Yuki Akuma]

Well it's just that I remember an illustration in Complete Arcane that basically looked like the iconic Wu Jen had become Colossus - the way the armour plating was drawn was nearly identical.

Yup, Metal Skin, Complete Arcane p. 115. Wu Jen 5 (metal).

Creature touched, 1 min/level, gains +8 natural armour bonus to AC and -2 penalty to Dex.

[Midnight_v]

Midnight__V, have you looked at possibly throwing a level of Binder into your Colossus build as to grant him the ability to immediately summon armor all around himself?

That was honestly my first thought, so you're pretty awesome.

Well it's just that I remember an illustration in Complete Arcane that basically looked like the iconic Wu Jen had become Colossus - the way the armour plating was drawn was nearly identical.

Yup, Metal Skin, Complete Arcane p. 115. Wu Jen 5 (metal).

Creature touched, 1 min/level, gains +8 natural armour bonus to AC and -2 penalty to Dex.
This was my second because I remebered that picture. Iron Body would require him to be a high level spell caster.
I don't think any of us really think of him as a high level spell caster.

Sides I already ran that bit with the Bruce Banner: Archivist, thing.

The cool thing about making Colossus a, Changling Mineral warrior is that he's basically actually a mutant.
Using racial emulation to give him Large size during a rage, fits really well too, Mineral Warrior grants
+3 Natrual Armor, and DR/8 Adamant(ium) Right out the box.
Thats really very good vs Everyone but wolverine...
Also... He should take the racial feat. "Rock Throwing" instead of fling ally, so he can be a hulking hurler later when he levels up.
This is my first superhero char that I realized "This guy is NOT a level 20 threat"
So While I have a plan for him, at best he's MAYBE level 12 or (13 w/La)
He is however a monk. Not a swordsage or anything like that, he's not "The best there is" he's generally a road block and a small one for when the juggernaut or hulk show up.
Hopefully, playing it this way gives the "FEEL" of being Piotr from level 1 on up.

Edit: Being a changling Mineral Warrior, he can very well look exactly like Colossus when imitating A Mineral Warrior Goliath. Nothing Wrong with that.

[Zonugal]

That was honestly my first thought, so you're pretty awesome.

I try, I try...

I think when looking at Colossus I pegged him like you but instead of Changeling I just went straight into Goliath with the Mineral Warrior Template. I also placed a lot of emphasis on his ability to be a bulldozer. So he ended up combining the Dungeoncrasher acf with the Shedu Crown soulmeld so that he is a master of bullrushing but also immune to it.

But you are right about him not needing to be above twelve level really. He isn't a high tier mutant...

[Midnight_v]

Honestly I had no idea how Soulmelds worked till this thread. I just always kinda glazed over it, and hoped that no one would really have thier heart set on playing on in one of the games I'm running, lol.
Now I've learned it, somewhat its not that bad really.

straight into Goliath with the Mineral Warrior Template
Yeah that works but then you're NEVER Human looking and the transform to steel sequence is a part of the char. Why?
Cause of all the times we hear "Piotr, is stuck in his steel form in the infirmary, his injuries are too severe to turn back" so now we have the interplay of being a human then turinng to steel.

I do like the shendu crown thing now that you point it out. Thing is though...

But you are right about him not needing to be above twelve level really. He isn't a high tier mutant... I made him a monk honestly because he's pretty sucky, he's kind suffers from the worf effect, except he's never really considered awesome at all just tough.
Making him a monk give him the ability to fight with his fists, and improved grapple but honestly if we move to a full 20 build he'd have all those elements most likely.

Monk X = Life as a farmboy and desire to be a painter Good saves and maybe spell resistance depending
Barb 1/w extra rage/goliath mountain rage (but not pounce) lets him get large size
Hulking Hurler so he can Fastball special (but not so much that he's a serious comet hurler)
Fighter X Dungeon Crasher.
Open least Chakra feat: Shendu Crown.
Honestly, Colossus is a one of the worst (power sets) on the X-men and can't really beat anybody or do his job as the strong guy... IN THE COMIC!
So making him a monk... was kinda a connect the dots kinda jib. He's my brothers favorite character, but the archenemesisi of the X-men is Magneto, and people who play the Melee game don't care bout his dr very much.
M_V
Next up: The Weapon X Project!

[Zonugal]

Yeah that works but then you're NEVER Human looking and the transform to steel sequence is a part of the char. Why?
Cause of all the times we hear "Piotr, is stuck in his steel form in the infirmary, his injuries are too severe to turn back" so now we have the interplay of being a human then turinng to steel.

I was just throwing stuff around. Idealy I would try to fit a level of Egotist in there to nab both change shape and some useful powers like Force Screen & Vigor (or Expansion with Expanded Knowledge).


I do like the shendu crown thing now that you point it out. Thing is though...
I made him a monk honestly because he's pretty sucky, he's kind suffers from the worf effect, except he's never really considered awesome at all just tough.
Making him a monk give him the ability to fight with his fists, and improved grapple but honestly if we move to a full 20 build he'd have all those elements most likely.

In my mind Colossus in DnD would be upgraded from dude with insto-metal skin and a good throwing arm to a walking tank. It would sort of follow the mentality of building Juggernaut but instead of focusing on the absolute brutish power of Juggernaut, you have Colossus who works much better in a team through concentrated defense & offense. He's the wall a team needs when a T-Rex is charging down on them and the catapult desired when seeking to get over that castle wall. He'd still be low-level (probably 12 max) but I'd approach it in that style.

[Midnight_v]

Well without getting drawn into a long debate about it.
Colossus is a B team dude. He sucks. I realized this awhile ago, while working at a comic bookstore, after I left the Marines. I know people hate absolute terms like that but he does. So some of hime I think should reflect that limitedness in his build. I still collect comics, (Every Wed I'm there) and its hard to pick up a comic that has Piotr in it that doesn't have him being beaten within an inch of his life. I rember playing the first ultimate alliance game watching him get his arm ripped of and flung away like a rag doll by Dr.Doom. I'm not sure why he's portrayed as a whipping boy but he really is... A LOT. I think its because his power is to turn into osmium "steel" but that he lives in a universe where there are innumerable ways to "cutting through steel, like paper Bub!"
Secondly, he's not a leader or a fighter "By trade.." so to speak, while someone else with that power set might have become Captain Russian (or whatevre that characters name was Red Guardian I think) his personality isn't for that.
As for the Juggernaut. Juggernaut is a Creature that the entire X-men have to beat together. Colossus is not a threat to chars like him either really.
Hulk/Juggs/Thing ... Colossus despite being the Strong guy for the X-men is not as stong or as durable as the others nor as large. One intersting test of this is how they deal with wolverine. Hulk, and Juggs can fight wolvie for a long time and often win if its 1v1 Thing can fight for a long time but eventually will lose as he is NOT resistant to adamantium but fortunatley for him he is way bigger than wolverine and likely immune to crits or something.
Colossus just gets slaughtered by wolvie, everytime Logan get mind controlled. The thought also that Rogue is stonger or just a strong as Colossus but gets smacked around by Juggs is fresh in my mind too.
So yeah. I don't wanna be a downer but I went ahead and started really thinking. "What level would this char really be?" What classes/races best represent that. On of the attribute of Piotr Rasputin is that he's NOT very good, and doesn't WANT to be a fighter, but he is a hero, and likeable, and more experience than the next best mutant option. So its him.

I'm getting away from myself though here. Gotta start work on that weapon X project.

[Zonugal]

Oh you'll hear no argument about the lameness of Colossus (I mean seriously, who gets drunk and than picks a fight with the Juggernaut? Really?). He falls into the same boat as Jubilee (Yay Colorspray spam!!!).

To a degree within abstract adaptation there could even be a possibility of us associating the problem of the Dwarven Defender with someone like Colossus. "Oh that guy looks tough, lets walk around him briskly."

I guess I don't know if it would be more prudent to make him less effective or try to make him effective at a very small niche.

Edit: As for Juggernaut we begin to delve into divinity and avatars of ancient gods, he's pretty darn powerful.

[Midnight_v]

He falls into the same boat as Jubilee (Yay Colorspray spam!!!).
I rofled! Maybe we could do "Expanded options for lame characters" Jubilee could oneday be an intiate of the 7 fold veil, if someone wants to stretcht the concept. Funny thing is the Colossus I built is BETTER than regular Colossus cause he has Burrow/Disgues Self/and Morphic Weapons. lol.


Edit: As for Juggernaut we begin to delve into divinity and avatars of ancient gods, he's pretty darn powerful.
Agreed. I'm at a loss without more study.

[Yuki Akuma]

Erm... Jubilee's colourful globules are explosive, you know. They can easily shatter iron.

[Zonugal]

Agreed. I'm at a loss without more study.

I really like focusing on turning a Dendritic Crystal armor suit (from Races of Faerun) and using the Weapons of Legacy abilities to pump it into an indestructible piece of protection.

As for the base there are two ideas present towards me:

1. The traditional approach of something akin to Psychic Warrior 3/Fighter 6/Warmind 1/Legacy Champion 10 which works well with charging and giving even more protection to the Juggernaut.

2. The more unorthodox approach of seeing Cyttorak as a true DnD diety and thus guiding the Juggernaut towards a build like Cleric/Bone Knight /Legacy Champion focusing on using divine buffs and a combination of the Bone Knight's immunity to non-lethal damage in conjunction with Troll-Blooded. I think this is a creative adaptation and allows for transformation into the larger juggernaut form in addition to pretty much making him an un-killable force from a dead god.


Erm... Jubilee's colourful globules are explosive, you know. They can easily shatter iron.

I may have been thinking of Dazzler... My bad.

[Kaje]

Ooh, just thought of this one.

Gambit: Warlock/Warblade dip/Bloodstorm Blade focusing on throwing Hideous Blows.

[Metahuman1]

I really like focusing on turning a Dendritic Crystal armor suit (from Races of Faerun) and using the Weapons of Legacy abilities to pump it into an indestructible piece of protection.

As for the base there are two ideas present towards me:

1. The traditional approach of something akin to Psychic Warrior 3/Fighter 6/Warmind 1/Legacy Champion 10 which works well with charging and giving even more protection to the Juggernaut.

2. The more unorthodox approach of seeing Cyttorak as a true DnD diety and thus guiding the Juggernaut towards a build like Cleric/Bone Knight /Legacy Champion focusing on using divine buffs and a combination of the Bone Knight's immunity to non-lethal damage in conjunction with Troll-Blooded. I think this is a creative adaptation and allows for transformation into the larger juggernaut form in addition to pretty much making him an un-killable force from a dead god.



I may have been thinking of Dazzler... My bad.

Dazzler is the one who just screws with light and sound, Jubilee has a relatively high level energy discharge that can, while not really out match Say, Cyclops, at least keep from getting left totally in the dust the moment you have to break, damage, destroy, or hurt something. The light and sounds are a side effect, not the primary effect.

Felt the need to point that out.

[Zonugal]

Ooh, just thought of this one.

Gambit: Warlock/Warblade dip/Bloodstorm Blade focusing on throwing Hideous Blows.

The Ballisteer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030426b) also works well for a Gambit build.

[Talbot]

Somebody wanna take a whack at Hitman (Tommy Monoghan)?

It'd be easier with Pathfinder thanks to the Gunslinger class, but even so you still need mindreading, X-ray vision, and TWF...

[Zonugal]

Somebody wanna take a whack at Hitman (Tommy Monoghan)?

It'd be easier with Pathfinder thanks to the Gunslinger class, but even so you still need mindreading, X-ray vision, and TWF...

Hmm... Seems like his main powers (x-ray vision & mind-reading) come from having been bitten by an alien. But beyond that he seems to be your standard assassin. Anything I missed (I scanned a wikipedia article about him)?

If we look at his special abilities they seem to be detection based so perhaps we begin with a couple levels in Rogue, dip into Urban Ranger to grab some nice perks, dip some levels of Telepath for some sense-based powers and past that we could head into Assassin or if we wanted to further develop his 'sense' based aptitude levels in Slayer might be nice.

I'm absolutely unfamiliar with the character, how powerful would you say he is?

[Talbot]

His main claim to fame is being the "fastest gun in Gotham". He's a dual-wielding gunslinger type who's good enough at what he does that he's gotten the better of Batman, Etrigan, and (with a little trickery) Green Lantern. He's also reasonably useless in melee combat without his guns.

I'd say to represent him mechanically you'd want to focus on TWF, winning initiative, and high BAB, with the telepathy/X-rays shoehorned in however you can. Precision damage would be great, but not necessity.

[Zonugal]

A strong focus towards Hand Crossbows, sneak attack (with Craven) and possibly trying to be very cheesy in applying Iajitsu Focus towards the Hand Crossbows (we'll throw bayonets on them) might represent a quick-draw gunman.

X-Ray Vision can be achieved through a ring (although honestly DnD makes it a very hard ability to possess). Now, the Nemesis feat from Book of Exalted Deeds can emulate that with a favored enemy (like humans or arcanists) as to be able to detect them through walls & such. Telepathy can be achieved in some ways. Typically five levels in Telepath is the standard approach. Dropping a feat and using Ghostwise halfling is another way (but then we have this guy being a halfling...).

[Talbot]

Worth noting is that his telepathy is pretty low-grade. It's basically an at-will detect thoughts that gives him a headache if he uses it very much.

[Zonugal]

Worth noting is that his telepathy is pretty low-grade. It's basically an at-will detect thoughts that gives him a headache if he uses it very much.

Three levels of Psion can easily achieve this in addition to providing a handful of other useful powers to emphasize sensing people (powers like Empathy, Synesthete, Detect Hostile Intent, Read Thoughts and Elfsight).

[Crasical]

I'm considering rolling up a speedster sorcerer, either going into daggerspell mage or arcane trickster. Can someone help me fill out his spell list? I've only got a couple good 'speed' spells so far.

1st: Expeditious Retreat (swift), Instant Search, Nerveskitter, True Strike
2nd: Lesser Celerity, Blur, Invisibility, Bladeweave
3rd: Haste, ?, ?
4th: Celerity, Freedom of Movement, ?