Best class for Gishing?

[Rossebay]

I've only used Psion (twice now) for my gishy characters, and I was wondering, what's the best class, and why?


I use Psion because of the lack of Spell Failure, and the ability to access the Life Mantle and some great buffs as an Egoist, and the crystal is amazing, but I'm wondering that the absolute best class is, according to y'all?

[Haldir]

Cleric and Duskblade both give you a workable gish right out of the box. Other builds are possible with certain gishy PrCs like Abjurant Champion.

[Drachasor]

Cleric and Duskblade both give you a workable gish right out of the box. Other builds are possible with certain gishy PrCs like Abjurant Champion.

Druid too, though they don't REALLY shine until level 5+.

Of course, the classic/"real" gish needs arcane spells, but they are dang hard to make. You end up kinda awful for 5+ levels until your PrCs kick in.

[Piggy Knowles]

Of course, the classic/"real" gish needs arcane spells, but they are dang hard to make. You end up kinda awful for 5+ levels until your PrCs kick in.

Sort of. The "real" gish was a term for githyanki, so it's kind of tough to say that psionics don't count as a classic gish.

But in any case, I would say that psions, ardents and clerics have consistently made the best gishes in games that I have been part of. I've seen a lot of good arcane gishes on paper, but with the exception of Swiftblades, they've all been a little underwhelming in actual play.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The "standard" gish is the Sorcadin... which is Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 IIRC

There are also the psychic warrior which is technically a gish from the get go and the Mystic SotAO Ranger AKA Lighting Warrior lite.

[Laura Eternata]

Well, it really depends on how optimized you want this to be. A Fighter 1/ Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Knight Phantom 8 ends up with 9th level spells as well as a 17 BAB, but that might be a bit too much for some games.

As for spell failure, Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) gives you Somatic Prowess, which lets you ignore spell failure in light armor. A mithral breastplate should be all you need, especially when you consider the massive AC boosts you'll be getting from your abjurations (namely, Shield and Greater Luminous Armor. The latter requires you to be good, though, I think.)

Of course, if you REALLY hate your DM, Rogue 2/Bard 1/Wizard 5/Druid 1/Ur Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 might be worth it just to see his the expression on his face. I think that's a 16 BAB as well as 9th level arcane AND divine casting.

Or, y'know, duskblade works.

[TroubleBrewing]

I think that's only 16 BAB if you use fractional BAB. Otherwise it's like 10 or 12. (Not bothering to count, just guestimating)

[Laura Eternata]

All the groups I've played with use fractional, so I'd actually forgotten that it's not RAW. Yeah, those builds depend heavily on that decision.

[TroubleBrewing]

I prefer it, personally. I tend to multiclass heavily. A lot of DM's I've played with think that NOT including it "discourages picking up tons of random bull**** classes and therefore makes better roleplayers".

I hate that fallacy.

[TwylyghT]

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 13/ Paladin 2/ Abjurant Champion 5
Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 14/ Marshal 1/ Abjurant Champion 5 if you dont fell like being a super goody.

[Coidzor]

Best for what?

Best for getting gish from the get-go?

Best for multi-class gish as early as possible?

Best for gishing & attaining the highest level of power possible?

Best balance between entry and power ceiling?

Best for mid level? Best for high level? Best for :smallyuk: low level?

[gorfnab]

I like Bards for Gishes. Lots of skills points, spells, buffs, and other stuff right out of the box.

Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 8/ Knight Phantom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Knight Phantom 8 (requires Militia or Otherworldly feat)

[Laniius]

Rossebay, I prefer the Ardent. Especially with the variants found online on Mind's Eye. Less powers known than a psion, but how the class is worded and how they get their powers known, your powers known are through manifester level, not class level. So you are less limited than a psion if you are concerned about high level powers. Especially with the feat practiced manifester.

[Devmaar]

Personally I'm a huge fan of Swiftblade, although I tend to leave out the last level. If I had to reccommend a build, (Focused) Transmuter6/Swiftblade9/Abjurant Champion5. 17BAB, 17CL and all the Swiftblade exellence

[darksolitaire]

Personally I'm a huge fan of Swiftblade, although I tend to leave out the last level. If I had to reccommend a build, (Focused) Transmuter6/Swiftblade9/Abjurant Champion5. 17BAB, 17CL and all the Swiftblade exellence

+1, I'm currently playing similar character, but I'm thinking of taking the last level in Swiftblade. As a gish rather then spellcaster, I'd rather have several one round timestops then ninth level spellcasting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Like others have said, some classes scream 'gish' right out of the box. PsyWar, Druid, and Cleric come to mind. There's a reason two out of those three choices are Tier 1 classes... they really can 'do it all'. Druids need Natural Spell and they're done optimizing. Clerics need DMM: Persist + Divine Power + Righteous Might for BAB 20 and 9th level spells.

Bards are another class that scream 'gish', although they can do *SO* much more. The way Bards generally Gish it up is Bard4/Warblade1/War Chanter10/Warblade5. DFI and IC optimization for ZOMGWTFBBQ damage. Not as much 'spellcaster' as 'holy crap, this guy can boost an army to make even the Mailman cringe with damage output'. So it may not be what you are looking for, even though he does use magic (and initiation) to do what he does.

Traditional Sorcadin has also been mentioned. Basically, you get your casting stat to all saves. Done.

Warlocks could also be counted as a Gish class. With the ability to use toys and magic items, their own invocations, a base 3/4 BAB, and Eldritch Glaive, they can really dish it out as well. See also: Melee Warlock Handbook for more details.

Duskblades and Hexblades are also good gishes right out of the box

The classic, PhB only option is Fighter2/Wizard5/EK10/Archmage3 (or Druid, of course. Clericzilla can fake it for one combat scene if he has pre-buff rounds).

The original, 2nd ed version is either a Githyanki or a Githzeri showing up out of nowhere, ripping your face off.

[Devmaar]

+1, I'm currently playing similar character, but I'm thinking of taking the last level in Swiftblade. As a gish rather then spellcaster, I'd rather have several one round timestops then ninth level spellcasting.

Yeah, but I don't tend to have any spells that I could use in the timestop. I suppose I could use it for buff rounds but the bonus action from haste is already pretty good at that.

[Rossebay]

Yeah, but I don't tend to have any spells that I could use in the timestop. I suppose I could use it for buff rounds but the bonus action from haste is already pretty good at that.

That is one thing I'm majorly jealous of: The ability to grab Swiftblade. Man, do I need it. Hahaha.

[Silverlich]

I would look at some of the Warforged options for feats.

[Grendus]

I've always been fond of sorcerer gishes. Unlike a traditional caster, a gish really just picks out the best offensive and defensive spells (steeldance, belker claws, fists of stone, mirror image, etc) and casts them repeatedly. Sorcerer is better for this, since they get to pick and choose spells (and get some of the best spells in the game like the Arcane Fusion and Wings lines) and have an absurd amount of slots. Even though you technically can get the same number of slots with a focused specialist, because of the fairly narrow range of situations that a gish will run into repeatedly the sorcerer is usually, imo, the best choice for an arcane gish.

And of course, there are plenty of other good gish classes and PrC's. I've never understood the love of the duskblade, but some people absolutely love it. Same goes for the Suel Archanomach. The Blackguard makes a decent gish (don't fall into the trap of paladin entry though, use something like a barbarian or fighter entry), as does the assassin, but neither get particularly high level spells. Another fun gish PrC is the Chameleon, which, while it's not particularly burly (d8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB) can swap between being an arcane gish or a divine gish, and can mimic some of the better class abilities like smite good/evil (yay neutral!), rage, sneak attack, etc. Find a good entry (something like Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Duskblade 3/Chameleon, you enter with 2d6 sneak attack and the ability to channel touch spells with your attacks) and you have the potential to be a fairly decent gish, albeit more of a striker than a tank.

[Traab]

Ok, someone define gishing for me? I tried doing a search and got "did you mean fishing?" I tried it dungeons and dragons gishing and got nothing, WHAT THE HECK DOES IT MEAN?!

[Drachasor]

I've always been fond of sorcerer gishes. Unlike a traditional caster, a gish really just picks out the best offensive and defensive spells (steeldance, belker claws, fists of stone, mirror image, etc) and casts them repeatedly. Sorcerer is better for this, since they get to pick and choose spells (and get some of the best spells in the game like the Arcane Fusion and Wings lines) and have an absurd amount of slots. Even though you technically can get the same number of slots with a focused specialist, because of the fairly narrow range of situations that a gish will run into repeatedly the sorcerer is usually, imo, the best choice for an arcane gish.

I've always wanted to play a Kobold Paladin/Sorc gish, but whenever someone DM'd they'd never let me play a Kobold. : (

Drachasor sad. :smallfrown:

[TroubleBrewing]

Ok, someone define gishing for me? I tried doing a search and got "did you mean fishing?" I tried it dungeons and dragons gishing and got nothing, WHAT THE HECK DOES IT MEAN?!

Gish: Spellsword. Swordmage. Etc. A traditionally melee-oriented character with magic buffs or other spells. Usually, the goal is 16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20, but there are a few builds out there that gain 16 BAB, 9th level spells, and 9th level maneuvers as well. (I think.)

[Ernir]

Outside of fast-progressing Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage or Loredrake or Phaerimm or Spellhoarding dragons or that kind of stuff, and assuming the arcane definition... Wizard, I say. Spells are that important.


Ok, someone define gishing for me? I tried doing a search and got "did you mean fishing?" I tried it dungeons and dragons gishing and got nothing, WHAT THE HECK DOES IT MEAN?!

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gish

Etymology
The term originates in the Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) game, where it originally referred to a Githyanki fighter/wizard combination.

Noun
gish (plural gishes)
(role-playing games) A magician, or character that is skilled in both physical combat and the use of magic. Most gish characters use their magical abilities to increase their own personal combat abilities (known as "buffing").

[Coidzor]

Ok, someone define gishing for me? I tried doing a search and got "did you mean fishing?" I tried it dungeons and dragons gishing and got nothing, WHAT THE HECK DOES IT MEAN?!

It's when you're shooty and crafty.

Err, I mean, Fighty and Casty!

[darksolitaire]

I for one am against sorcerers, gish or no gish. Their number of mid to high level spells known is dreadful. Let's take an example.

Level 4 spells; here my gish wizard has Greater Luminous Armor, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Fire Shield, Dimension Door, Mass Enlarge Person and Celerity. Seven spells all together, from a very small selection of buff and utility. The list itself is pretty unoptimised, there's no stone skin, lesser globe of invulnerability, or spell compedium spells.

A Sorcerer can select up to 4 spells for this spell level, at level 13. Both sorcerer and wizard are multi-classed when gishing, meaning that sorcerer's spells will come online even later. And low number of spells stands for Sublime Chord, too.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Outside of fast-progressing Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage or Loredrake or Phaerimm or Spellhoarding dragons or that kind of stuff, and assuming the arcane definition... Wizard, I say. Spells are that important.


I prefer to use loredrake and GRoDP to normalize spell level access and to off set the CL lose that multiclassing brings.

[Drachasor]

I prefer to use loredrake and GRoDP to normalize spell level access and to off set the CL lose that multiclassing brings.

From what I understand, isn't Loredrake a pretty cheap trick that most DMs would never allow?

[Greenish]

From what I understand, isn't Loredrake a pretty cheap trick that most DMs would never allow?What a DM allows depends on the campaign. Some people play at higher OP levels than others.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Depends, in that particular case I took it as a feat and enforeced the HD reduction for all my levels at level 5 that kobold has 20 HP being the ultimate glass cannon :smallbiggrin:

Edit: To be honest I was really surprised to see that particular build was allowed...

[Drachasor]

What a DM allows depends on the campaign. Some people play at higher OP levels than others.

That's why I said "most"


Depends, in that particular case I took it as a feat and enforeced the HD reduction for all my levels at level 5 that kobold has 20 HP being the ultimate glass cannon :smallbiggrin:

Edit: To be honest I was really surprised to see that particular build was allowed...

Ahh, I didn't realize you actually got to use it in a game. Crazy.

[Flickerdart]

Ardent is a very good gish class - it's easy to catch up on lost manifester levels, and you have 3/4 BAB to keep you warm at night. Being able to turn a 5/10 PrC into a 9/10 PrC with just one feat is incredibly awesome, and I'm sure I don't need to explain why.

Ur-Priest is also excellent, because you can loiter about with whatever for a couple of levels, then swoop in to grab your casting lightning-fast. The built-in Turn Undead means that you don't even need Sacred Exorcist.

Archivist is good because you can get all those juicy Paladin and Ranger spells, but you'll want to get out as quickly as possible so that the 1/2 BAB doesn't hurt you too bad.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That's why I said "most"



Ahh, I didn't realize you actually got to use it in a game. Crazy.

technically the game (pbp) has not started but the build was allowed :smallbiggrin:

[LordBlades]

My favorite casting class for a gish is wizard, coupled with crusader for fighty class (or just go straight outsider and no fighty class).

I don't like duskblades, and it's not because they are weaker than a wizard gish (something like crusader 1/wizard 6/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 5/incantatrix 7 with Arcane Disciple: Competition for Divine Power and Righteous Might is probably too powerful for some games while duskblade might fit better) but because, for me at least it's not a real gish. When I think gish I think a warrior that uses magic so he can fight better (aka buffs) while duskblade's shtick is blasting while fighting(their list has very few buff spells sadly).

[dextercorvia]

I for one am against sorcerers, gish or no gish. Their number of mid to high level spells known is dreadful. Let's take an example.

Level 4 spells; here my gish wizard has Greater Luminous Armor, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Fire Shield, Dimension Door, Mass Enlarge Person and Celerity. Seven spells all together, from a very small selection of buff and utility. The list itself is pretty unoptimised, there's no stone skin, lesser globe of invulnerability, or spell compedium spells.

A Sorcerer can select up to 4 spells for this spell level, at level 13. Both sorcerer and wizard are multi-classed when gishing, meaning that sorcerer's spells will come online even later. And low number of spells stands for Sublime Chord, too.

But, how many of those level 4 spells can you prep in a day? Unless you are changing up your prepped spells every day, you would actually get more mileage out of the sorcerer. As a Sorcerer, Celerity, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility I would keep. I would get GLA and Dimension Door on a Runestaff, since I'm unlikely to need more than one of those a day. That leaves me with an open slot for Wings of Flurry, Black Tentacles, or something else that I might want to cast more than once in a day.

[FMArthur]

I think the best fit for the gish term is to be good in melee and have the veritable toolbox full of toys that advanced casters get, which is blasting, battlefield control and out-of-combat problem solver spells. Buffing just doesn't seem very casterly to me unless the spell is truly crazy (Polymorph and such), because it just plays like a normal, dedicated-melee character who has to 'turn on' his melee strengths from time to time.

Duskblade isn't a complete package, but I don't consider Psychic Warrior to be one either. They are both gishes, but maybe less gishy than a fullcaster multiclass or Ardent respectively. :smallwink:

[Drachasor]

Duskblade isn't a complete package, but I don't consider Psychic Warrior to be one either. They are both gishes, but maybe less gishy than a fullcaster multiclass or Ardent respectively. :smallwink:

The Duskblade has two massive problems, imho. First, despite a reduced number of spell levels, he doesn't have much flexibility on his spell list (and his list is never expanded). Second, he gets the ability to channel touch spells into his attacks, and barely gets any touch spells. It's pretty ridiculous.

[dspeyer]

I'm fond of bard. It's gishy out of the box and can use sublime chord to get high level spells at high levels even after losing caster levels early.

For example,
Bard 8 / Crusader 1 / JPM 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / JPM 4
Gets 9th level spells, 17 BAB and 7th level maneuvers

A little more martial-focused
Bard 4 / Crusader 2 / JPM 4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / JPM 6
Gets a 9th level spell, 18 BAB and 8th level maneuvers

Or if you don't like ToB:
Bard 4 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Eldritch Knight 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Abjurant Champion 2 / Eldritch Knight 7
Gets 9th level spells and 18 BAB

Or if you like channeling:
Bard 4 / Paladin of Freedom 1 / Spellsword 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight 4
Gets a 9th level spell, 18 BAB and channel 3/day
Swap the final Eldritch Knight for Sacred Exorcist to get a second 9th level spell but lose one BAB.

[Ernir]

I prefer to use loredrake and GRoDP to normalize spell level access and to off set the CL lose that multiclassing brings.

That's preeeetty much what I was talking about. :smalltongue:

Depends, in that particular case I took it as a feat and enforeced the HD reduction for all my levels at level 5 that kobold has 20 HP being the ultimate glass cannon :smallbiggrin:

Edit: To be honest I was really surprised to see that particular build was allowed...
It took me a minute to figure out what the hell that 20 HP kobold was doing in the high-op group. :smallbiggrin:

Extremely interested in seeing how well it works.

[Essence_of_War]

I like Suel Arcanamach and Hexblade gishes.

The former:

Duskblade3/Warblade3/Suel4/AdjChamp5/Spellsword1/WB4-8

or the latter:

Hex4/Crus1/AbjChamp5/JPM10

Both get really good BAB, and access to some delicious ToB goodness :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I for one am against sorcerers, gish or no gish. Their number of mid to high level spells known is dreadful. Let's take an example.

Level 4 spells; here my gish wizard has Greater Luminous Armor, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Fire Shield, Dimension Door, Mass Enlarge Person and Celerity. Seven spells all together, from a very small selection of buff and utility. The list itself is pretty unoptimised, there's no stone skin, lesser globe of invulnerability, or spell compedium spells.

A Sorcerer can select up to 4 spells for this spell level, at level 13. Both sorcerer and wizard are multi-classed when gishing, meaning that sorcerer's spells will come online even later. And low number of spells stands for Sublime Chord, too.

He may have them in his spellbook, but he doesn't have them all prepped for the day.

So, Mr. Gish with the casting of a 7th level Wizard, how do you know which of these spells is the one your want to prepare for your ONE 4th level spell slot? Or, for that matter, since we want to be fair, how do you know which TWO you wish to have prepared for the day?

Sure, a Sorcerer only gets 1 4th level spell KNOWN at 8th level, but he can spam it 3/day.

Here's the thing...

You're trying to be a Gish, not an Arcane Caster. A Gish uses magic to support fighting, not the other way around. So he chooses one spell which compliments the rest of his layout and build.

Is he a Gish that does battlefield control, then wades in and cleans up? He'll probably grab Black Tentacles. That way he can tangle up the casters while he dispatches the mooks, maybe drops a Stinking Cloud down on the caster to make sure he isn't going to be pulling anything silly like a DimDoor to get out.

Is he a Gish that can channel his spells through his attacks? Fine, pick up Enervation. 1d4 negative levels on top of damage. Eat that, sucker!

Is he a gish who likes to be the Tank, daring opponents to hit him, and uses his magic to make him a viable threat, so the opponents are actually inclined to not ignore him? Fine, grab Stoneskin. While I normally do not approve of it as a spontaneous caster spell, due to the steep material costs, if this is his party role, then the party should be assisting in keeping him supplied in diamond dust.

Is he a 'sneaky gish', similar to an Arcane Trickster? Improved Invisibility and an extra side of Sneak Attack, Boop!.

Gish builds are, by necessity, more focused. They fill a single role, and do it quite well. However, they simply are unable to employ the same breadth of arcane might which a dedicated caster build is able to bring to the fore. They have to split character resources between casting and fighting, including feats and class levels. An 8th level wizard should have ten spells of 4th level in his spellbook, if not more. And he can use each one, depending on the circumstances which he believes he is going into. A Gish, on the other hand, finds himself in a different tactical situation, with different immediate needs, and fewer metamagic options.

tl;dr version: Having spells in your spell book /= being able to cast any one you want at any given time. Nor does it mean they are all necessary for all types of Gish builds. Gishes need fewer options and more spamming. Hence, Sorcerer is superior for most Gish type builds.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That's preeeetty much what I was talking about. :smalltongue:

It took me a minute to figure out what the hell that 20 HP kobold was doing in the high-op group. :smallbiggrin:

Extremely interested in seeing how well it works.

Next level I grab two spellcasting levels (Spellsword and GRoDP) get me a second level spell (wings of flurry or false life) and one 3rd level spell vampiric touch seems like a good option. :smallbiggrin:

[Curious]

My mental image of a gish is of a warrior who spins through battle, handing out death with steel in one hand and fire in the other. Unfortunately, there aren't a huge number of combinations that can both do this and get high level spells/maneuvers, so I almost always try to play a gish in gestalt campaigns. Sage bloodline sorceror/warblade//factotum works pretty well, but it requires Jade Pheonix Mage or homebrew to really take off.

[Greenish]

My mental image of a gish is of a warrior who spins through battle, handing out death with steel in one hand and fire in the other.Straight swordsage does that pretty well.

You can pick up enough magical maneuvers that swordsage might almost be considered a gish on it's own, actually.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think WotC actually called Swordsages swordmage or wizard of the blade and if you really want to make a gish using a swordsage, well there is always Arcane Swordsage :smalltongue:

[Curious]

Straight swordsage does that pretty well.

You can pick up enough magical maneuvers that swordsage might almost be considered a gish on it's own, actually.

Oh, I know, it's just that I usually prefer a higher power level for my characters. Besides, gishing with Factotum involved allows me more actions, which thus allows for more awesome.

[Hunter Killer]

I always like the Bard Gish. My favorite build is:

Savage Bard 5, Ur-Priest 3, Abjurant Champion 2 (Upping Bard casting), Sublime Chord 1, Abjurant Champion to 4 (Upping Chord casting), Mystic Theurge 7

The idea here is that you get 9th level casting via Ur-Priest and Chord, and you use Divine Metamagic to Persist Divine Power (Otherwise it has a +12 BAB at the end, which is not great but could be buffed nicely with other feats and spells). Other than DP, your borked spells are the Celerity line of spells, Haste, and Time Stop.

[AMFV]

I'm fondest of Wizards, but that's more personal preference than any mechanical advantage. I much prefer playing a class based around being intelligent than being charismatic. Wizards are still far more versatile than Sorcerers and will thus have more options in any situation, which is better. Sorcerers make better Arcane Strike gishes, and can spam stuff. It just depends on how niche you want to be. Part of the reason I like gishes is that I really don't want to be in a niche at all. For this reason wizards are the best gishing class for me.

[Talya]

A well build Bard 20 gishes really well without even multiclassing.

Pile on the snowflake wardance, two weapon fighting, crystal echoblades, and dragonfire inspiration, and you're an absolute terror in any battle.

Yay for 6 attacks each getting +14d6 {insert elemental damage} + 10 sonic damage, while getting your charisma as a to-hit bonus, making you far more likely to land them all.

[darksolitaire]

He may have them in his spellbook, but he doesn't have them all prepped for the day.

So, Mr. Gish with the casting of a 7th level Wizard, how do you know which of these spells is the one your want to prepare for your ONE 4th level spell slot? Or, for that matter, since we want to be fair, how do you know which TWO you wish to have prepared for the day?


I tend to favour focused transmuter, and have a good casting stat for bonus spells. I also leave around one-third of my spell slots open, to be filled later. Fire Shield is a good example; you likely won't select it for sorcerer based gish, but wizard gish can pull it out if he knows he might need it.



You're trying to be a Gish, not an Arcane Caster. A Gish uses magic to support fighting, not the other way around. So he chooses one spell which compliments the rest of his layout and build.


See above. Fights are different, and larger selection of spells can't hurt you.



tl;dr version: Having spells in your spell book /= being able to cast any one you want at any given time. Nor does it mean they are all necessary for all types of Gish builds. Gishes need fewer options and more spamming. Hence, Sorcerer is superior for most Gish type builds.

Wizard focused specialist, at level 8, has 1+3 4th level spell slots. Sorcerer, on the other hand, has 3. And I fully disagree that gishes need fewer options; in my opinion, options are always good. Sorcerer gish easily becomes glorified fighter, "I'll buff myself and then hit things.", while wizard gish has more room to pick spells based on what he thinks he needs, such as movement, infiltration, and so forth. No two days in adventure are the same.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I tend to favour focused transmuter, and have a good casting stat for bonus spells. I also leave around one-third of my spell slots open, to be filled later. Fire Shield is a good example; you likely won't select it for sorcerer based gish, but wizard gish can pull it out if he knows he might need it. Eh, not really. I've never seen it come in handy, anyways. But hey, that's what scrolls were invented for, eh? And how are you likely to know you're going to want it that day over, say, an actually useful spell?


Wizard focused specialist, at level 8, has 1+3 4th level spell slots. Sorcerer, on the other hand, has 3. And I fully disagree that gishes need fewer options; in my opinion, options are always good. Sorcerer gish easily becomes glorified fighter, "I'll buff myself and then hit things.", while wizard gish has more room to pick spells based on what he thinks he needs, such as movement, infiltration, and so forth. No two days in adventure are the same.

These things contradict each other. How can you have more options when you are banning half the schools? My sorcerer eventually ends up with MORE options than you do, simply by virtue of not being prohibited from looking at half the spells in the game, and being able to use items related to and associated with them.

[Talya]

Not to mention more than half of a focused specialist's spell slots MUST be from one school. It's usually an ugly, limited option that sacrifices everything that makes a Wizard so powerful - versatility.

[Flickerdart]

What's more versatile - four slots for four different spells, or three slots for one spell?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What's more versatile - four slots for four different spells, or three slots for one spell?

Four slots from the *same college* is not always more versatile.

Also, how are you getting 4 spells... I'm counting 1 base, + 1 from specialization + 1 from Focused Specialization... that's 3 by my math.

[darksolitaire]

Eh, not really. I've never seen it come in handy, anyways. But hey, that's what scrolls were invented for, eh? And how are you likely to know you're going to want it that day over, say, an actually useful spell?


How likely am I to know? Depends very much on the circumstances and game. The option is still there when I need it.



These things contradict each other. How can you have more options when you are banning half the schools? My sorcerer eventually ends up with MORE options than you do, simply by virtue of not being prohibited from looking at half the spells in the game, and being able to use items related to and associated with them.

They do not contradict...for a gish, who does wants options, but doesn't want the traditional batman wizard amount. Let me explain.

Enchantment and Necromancy are easy bans, if you have access to Luminous Armor spells, conjuration is another easy ban. Going focused or not depends on what spells entire group might need. I prefer it, but if there's no one to cast, say, teleport, then obviously I would not ban conjuration. There are also feat for a wizard to gain access to few spells from his banned schools. Using a feat for this is bad, I know, but at least as a level 5 wizard I have more feats to spare then a sorcerer.

As a sorcerer, you have access to all the spell schools, and can select up to 34 spells known, not including cantrips, at level 20. Runestaves and knowledge stones can help you with this, but if you need to rely on items, it means that the problem is there, and you always can't count on items. From those 34 spells known, you will lose some by going gish. You'll have 27 as a 15-level sorcerer, for example. Do you choose your spells known from all the eight schools? Probably, but you pick most of your spells from few schools, and few from others. While focused wizard gish will lose few useful spells, sorcerer gish loses more overall.

[Talya]

43 spells known. (Take a bloodline feat.) Then add a runestaff.

[Flickerdart]

Four slots from the *same college* is not always more versatile.

Also, how are you getting 4 spells... I'm counting 1 base, + 1 from specialization + 1 from Focused Specialization... that's 3 by my math.
At 8th level, a Wizard has two general slots, one of which is sacrificed to Focused Specialist, and three specialist slots. So he can prepare three of a spell (and be as long-lasting as your Sorcerer) and then grab a fourth from anywhere. As for banned schools, that's why you choose the crappy ones.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How likely am I to know? Depends very much on the circumstances and game. The option is still there when I need it.



They do not contradict...for a gish, who does wants options, but doesn't want the traditional batman wizard amount. Let me explain.

Enchantment and Necromancy are easy bans, if you have access to Luminous Armor spells, conjuration is another easy ban. Going focused or not depends on what spells entire group might need. I prefer it, but if there's no one to cast, say, teleport, then obviously I would not ban conjuration. There are also feat for a wizard to gain access to few spells from his banned schools. Using a feat for this is bad, I know, but at least as a level 5 wizard I have more feats to spare then a sorcerer.

Wait... did you just say ban Conjuration?

Okay, I"m done here. It's clear we have extreme philosophical differences which cannot be reconciled.

Personally, I don't see how you could even consider banning the single most flexible, powerful, and unstoppable college, but hey... it's your character. You go ahead and do that. It's... umm... flavorful and has lots of roleplay.

[Flickerdart]

Conjuration kicks ass, but a gish doesn't need it as much as Transmutation. I'd ban Evocation first, then Enchantment and Necromancy, then Illusion and only then Conjuration, but it's still expendable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Conjuration kicks ass, but a gish doesn't need it as much as Transmutation. I'd ban Evocation first, then Enchantment and Necromancy, then Illusion and only then Conjuration, but it's still expendable.

I would disagree. No Save No SR Just Die Now is too strong for me to give up. Ever. Even then.

Need direct damage? Orb of X can do that. Acid Fog, to a lesser extent, but it's also battlefield control.

Need battlefield control? Say hello to Web and Solid Fog/Acid Fog. And those are just the ones that aren't also Save or Lose

Need Save or Lose? Grease, Glitterdust, or Stinking Cloud. Which save do you want to target? What, you don't want to target saves? Fine, Black Tentacles. Cloudkill also qualifies, since it does Con damage even if you make your save.

Need some utility? Fine. Here's Mount, Phantom Steed, the teleport series, trapspringing (via summoned minions), PLANAR BINDING, Rope Trick/MMM, Trap The Soul (to prevent BBEG's from resurrecting and showing back up), and **GATE**.

And the best part? Not a single one of these spells I've mentioned so far allow SR.

Conjuration really is 'do whatever you want and get away with it'. For *ANYONE*.

[Coidzor]

What's more versatile - four slots for four different spells, or three slots for one spell?

And pearls of power, don't forget those. Sorcerers can't use those at all, even with UMD as far as I can tell.

[FMArthur]

I would disagree. No Save No SR Just Die Now is too strong for me to give up. Ever. Even then.

Need direct damage? Orb of X can do that. Acid Fog, to a lesser extent, but it's also battlefield control.

Need battlefield control? Say hello to Web and Solid Fog/Acid Fog. And those are just the ones that aren't also Save or Lose

Need Save or Lose? Grease, Glitterdust, or Stinking Cloud. Which save do you want to target? What, you don't want to target saves? Fine, Black Tentacles. Cloudkill also qualifies, since it does Con damage even if you make your save.

Need some utility? Fine. Here's Mount, Phantom Steed, the teleport series, trapspringing (via summoned minions), PLANAR BINDING, Rope Trick/MMM, Trap The Soul (to prevent BBEG's from resurrecting and showing back up), and **GATE**.

And the best part? Not a single one of these spells I've mentioned so far allow SR.

Conjuration really is 'do whatever you want and get away with it'. For *ANYONE*.

While I personally only consider a character a gish when they have a properly versatile Toolbox of Solve This Problem available, a lot of people just want their gishes to be straight melee classes with an 'on' button, ie casters who only cast buffs. A lot of people play a gish that way and don't use Conjuration at all. I get the impression that that's sort of the direction he's coming from.

[darksolitaire]

stuff

I wholeheartedly agree with you, except for the last part. Actually, I even agree with you for the last part, but the arcane caster is already casting those conjurations. I'm all for conjurations, but if someone else in the party can use them, I'd rather have my gish with miss-chance, or even heroism.

Edit: FMArthur: yeah, you pretty much got me with that one. But I really believe other schools offer more overall benefit for a gish. There are toolbox spells in other schools, too.

[Flickerdart]

While I personally only consider a character a gish when they have a properly versatile Toolbox of Solve This Problem available, a lot of people just want their gishes to be straight melee classes with an 'on' button, ie casters who only cast buffs. A lot of people play a gish that way and don't use Conjuration at all. I get the impression that that's sort of the direction he's coming from.
That is indeed what I am getting at. If you are not a fan of solving all your problems with physical violence, then why are you building a gish?

[Daftendirekt]

And pearls of power, don't forget those. Sorcerers can't use those at all, even with UMD as far as I can tell.

Fortunately, there is the Memento Magica in Races of the Dragon, page 124. It is literally a Pearl of Power made for Sorcerers spontaneous casters.

[Soranar]

There are advantages to using a Duskblade as a base class for a gish:
-They get a ridiculous amount of spells slots
-They can cast in mithral fullplate by level 4

The only problem is expanding their spell list but there are ways to do that.

A build like this one for example

1 Duskblade Apprentice: entertainer
2 Duskblade
3 Duskblade Combat casting
4 Duskblade
5 Duskblade
6 Prestige Bard (gives you access to every bard only spells and qualifies you for sublime chord)
7 Abjurant Champion
8 Abjurant Champion
9 Abjurant Champion
10 Prestige Bard (max out listen for Sublime Chord)
11 Sublime chord
12 Abjurant Champion
13 Abjurant Champion
14 Knight Phantom
15 Knight Phantom
16 Knight Phantom
17 Knight Phantom
18 Knight Phantom
19 Knight Phantom
20 Knight Phantom

BAB 18, level 9 arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard list. Everything spontaneous.

Your Duskblade spells are cast with INT so you need 13 to cast them all
your Sublime chord spells are cast with CHA (also limits you to light armor unless you take battle caster). Since you always have diplomacy you can play the party's face.

Duskblade only spells work very well with abjurant champion (lesser deflect for the win).

Prestige Bard requires you to be able to cast 1 divination spell (true strike), 1 enchantment spell (rouse) and 1 illusion spell (color spray). It nets you every bard spell on your list, making duskblade a far better choice as a base class. Obviously it also makes you qualify for sublime chord which fixes your higher level spell access.

Other than apprentice (entertainer) and combat casting there is no feat or racial requirement to this build but I'd recommend taking obtain familiar and improved familiar as your hitpoints and BAB are fairly high.

If you want to use a shield, you can take 1 level of spellsword (and sacrifice a level of phantom knight). Duskblade gives you the proficiency and you can use a mithral heavy shield not to incur a penalty. As for armor, sublime chord can only use light armor so you need to take battlecaster if you wish to wear mithral full plate.

[Drachasor]

Obviously the Wizard is a more powerful class than the Sorcerer, even a non-specialist Wizard. So I'd say yeah, a Wizard makes a better gish, because it is Tier 1.

That doesn't mean the Sorc is bad. You get plenty of free spells known for utility spells as a Sorc Gish, imho.

[LordBlades]

In regards to focused specialist wizard for gishes, I think it's easily doable:
My choice of banned schools:

Enchantment: it's limited as it is being mostly [mind-affecting] but the fact that you won't have the typical Int focus of a traditional Wizard to push the DCs makes it pretty much useless.
Evocation: only really useful spell is contingency, which you can get with Greater Shadow Evocation. For the very rare occasion you'd need to blast, stuff like Orb of X is usually more than enough.
Necromancy: Some nice debuffs, but not vital; can live without it.

[LordBlades]

Double post, sorry about that. Please delete

[Talya]

In regards to focused specialist wizard for gishes, I think it's easily doable:
My choice of banned schools:

Enchantment: it's limited as it is being mostly [mind-affecting] but the fact that you won't have the typical Int focus of a traditional Wizard to push the DCs makes it pretty much useless.
Evocation: only really useful spell is contingency, which you can get with Greater Shadow Evocation. For the very rare occasion you'd need to blast, stuff like Orb of X is usually more than enough.
Necromancy: Some nice debuffs, but not vital; can live without it.

My issue with Focused Specialist gishes is not the banned schools, which one can work with. It's the lack of flexibility in their spell slots.

The sorcerer gets 2-6 spells known at each spell level at any given time, but can use them however it wants from any of its 3-6 spell slots.

The focused specialist wizard gets between 3-6 spell slots, too. However, 3 of those spell slots are ALWAYS used for it's specialized school (even when it only gets 3 spell slots.) Furthermore, those spells must be used for the spell memorized in them. Once you spend it, you can't reuse that spell until tomorrow, unless you've memorized it twice.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that a well played wizard is not more versatile than a sorcerer, they certainly are. But Spontaneous casting is rather undervalued in places like this. Problem is, everyone assumes some master of prediction among wizard players, that somehow the wizard will always have what he needs prepared. Nobody alive actually has batman's mind, though, and no, divination can't help you with this (as the threads on it recently have brought out.) Most wizard players end up preparing the same spells every day because they've proven to be the most useful day in and day out. So in the end, what's better? having 4-5 specific spells prepared, the same way,e very single day? Or having 5-6 spells ready that you can use at will whenever you like, in any order or combination you like?

[Flickerdart]

Sorcerer has that advantage only when looking at low level spells, while the Focused Specialist has more uses and versatility of higher level spells. Since higher level spells are exponentially better...the Sorcerer doesn't compare, even with its increased amount of weak spell slots.

[Coidzor]

1 Duskblade Apprentice: entertainer
2 Duskblade
3 Duskblade Combat casting
4 Duskblade
5 Duskblade
6 Prestige Bard (gives you access to every bard only spells and qualifies you for sublime chord)
7 Abjurant Champion
8 Abjurant Champion
9 Abjurant Champion
10 Prestige Bard (max out listen for Sublime Chord)
11 Sublime chord
12 Abjurant Champion
13 Abjurant Champion
14 Knight Phantom
15 Knight Phantom
16 Knight Phantom
17 Knight Phantom
18 Knight Phantom
19 Knight Phantom
20 Knight Phantom

Knight Phantom loses a CL at its first level like Eldritch Knight, so you'd want to switch its first level for one of the levels of Abjurant Champion you took before Sublime Chord.


Double post, sorry about that. Please delete

Check your edit button.

[dextercorvia]

Knight Phantom loses a CL at its first level like Eldritch Knight, so you'd want to switch its first level for one of the levels of Abjurant Champion you took before Sublime Chord.

He can't. He's already dropped one casting level for Prestige Bard, and Duskblade doesn't get 3rds until 9th level casting.

[Coidzor]

He can't. He's already dropped one casting level for Prestige Bard, and Duskblade doesn't get 3rds until 9th level casting.

In that case. Ew. :smallyuk:

[Drachasor]

Sorcerer has that advantage only when looking at low level spells, while the Focused Specialist has more uses and versatility of higher level spells. Since higher level spells are exponentially better...the Sorcerer doesn't compare, even with its increased amount of weak spell slots.

That's why you play a Kobold Paladin/Sorcerer.

For Bahamut!

[Paul H]

Hi

Didn't see anything banning pathfinder, so...

Magus or Synthesist (Summoner Archetype).

Magus is Int based caster, has Cleric BAB/HP, starts off with no ASF for Light Armour, (gaining Med & Hvy profs later), uses magic to enhance their weapons, has (PF) Bard spell progression, but with spells (mostly) from Wiz list.

Synthesists are Cha based casters that 'wear' their summoned Eidolon, using it's physical stats plus abilities (Darkvision, Evasion, etc). Eidolons use D10 HP, full BAB, Though your Eidolon's HD isn't your full Character HD. Eg. Synthesist 5 has only 4HD Eidolon.

You can increase stats, gain immunities, Nat Armour, movement (fly, etc), extra limbs, etc. Though you can wear light armour, you don't get the bonuses when 'wearing' your Eidolon, so you use Mage Armour instead.

There is a limited spell list, with (PF) Bard spell progression, but some spells gained earlier. (Haste is 2nd lvl).

My Human Synthesist for PFS campaign (20 pt buy), at 5th lvl will have:

Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18
AC 19 (Nat +6, Dex +2, Dodge) [23 c/w Mage Armour]
HP 87 (53 self, plus 34 Temp from Eidolon)

Attacks (2 from 2 pairs arms):
Gt Sword +6. Dam 2D6+14 (Pwr attack, Arcane Strike)
M/C Quarterstaff + 7. Dam D6 +14 (Pwr attack, Arcane Strike)

Feats: Toughness, Dodge, Arcane Strike, Pwr Attack
Eidolon Evolutions: Con +2, Extra Limbs, Flight (supernatural, perfect maneuvrability).

At 6th lvl going Ninja for sneak attacks and ki abilities (Cha based)

Hardly optimised, but.......
Thanks
Paul H

[LordBlades]

My issue with Focused Specialist gishes is not the banned schools, which one can work with. It's the lack of flexibility in their spell slots.

The sorcerer gets 2-6 spells known at each spell level at any given time, but can use them however it wants from any of its 3-6 spell slots.

The focused specialist wizard gets between 3-6 spell slots, too. However, 3 of those spell slots are ALWAYS used for it's specialized school (even when it only gets 3 spell slots.) Furthermore, those spells must be used for the spell memorized in them. Once you spend it, you can't reuse that spell until tomorrow, unless you've memorized it twice.

If you're really worried about that, there's always Uncanny Forethought, which given the ambiguous wording might even allow circumventing the school restrictions for Focused Specialist bonus slots (depending on how your DM reads it).



Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that a well played wizard is not more versatile than a sorcerer, they certainly are. But Spontaneous casting is rather undervalued in places like this. Problem is, everyone assumes some master of prediction among wizard players, that somehow the wizard will always have what he needs prepared. Nobody alive actually has batman's mind, though, and no, divination can't help you with this (as the threads on it recently have brought out.) Most wizard players end up preparing the same spells every day because they've proven to be the most useful day in and day out. So in the end, what's better? having 4-5 specific spells prepared, the same way,e very single day? Or having 5-6 spells ready that you can use at will whenever you like, in any order or combination you like?

It's not necessarily that, for me at least the idea that prepared casters are superior to spontaneous due to the sheer number of awesome situational spells that are in the books. Spells that would solve a certain situation, but that kind of situation doesn't come up frequently enough to be worth a spell known for a spontaneous caster.

Also, divination spells help to a certain point (depending on how your DM plays them) but that's behind the point of the current thread (it's been discussed at length in the other thread) but your main tool for that is proactive play. I'm not preparing spells to fight a white dragon because some mysterious prediction told me today at 12 I'll be attacked by a white dragon, but because I, the great wizard/cleric/druid have decided that today at 12 I'm going after a white dragon. Of course, quite a few DMs hate proactive play and expect wizards to play like fighters (walking to the dungeon and bashing your way in room by room) despite a great deal of their class abilities (spells) pointing otherwise (scrying, CoP, teleport, dimension door, overland flight, passwall etc. tools to find the BBEG and go in the way you want, not the way he wants).

Would a sorcerer in a campaign that's not dragon-centric learn too many anti-dragon spells?

[Doorhandle]

would a Pathfinder Magus count, seeing as it was MADE to be a gish?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm partial to the Sorcadin (Paladin of Freedom 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8) because of the bonus Divine Grace gives to all saves, as well as the solid Hit Dice progression. It's also a build that has lots of swift action uses of arcane power (I use the feat Arcane Strike as well as Abjurant Champion's ability to translate available spells directly into striking damage when needed) and turn undead (the devotion feats, specifically, but there are others that are easily represented), and CHA is the big winner for single-attribute builds (Slippers of Battledancing and the Gauntlet of Heartfelt Blows alone are frightening).

It is worth noting, however, that Rogue 2/Bard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Ur-Priest 1-2/Sublime Chord 1-2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8 would have access to ninth-level divine (as Cleric) and arcane (as Bard) spells, and should have +16 BAB at level 20 (losing one point each for its first level in Rogue, Bard, Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord), and also gets turn undead or the song of arcane power (your choice). The only thing not explicitly included in this build, also, is the ability to speak the Druidic language, but you're evil (as per Ur-Priest), so you should be able to find a workaround for that (like capturing a druid who is selfish enough to trade knowledge of the Druidic language for his or her own life, or somebody who has been expelled from the druid's circle). The skill point requirements, however, are ridiculous, and most of them will have to be taken cross-class or squeezed in at odd times. But hey, 9th level arcane and divine spells with enough BAB to make four attacks on a full action? Where do I sign?

Sadly, I couldn't think of a workaround that allowed you to have both turn undead and the song of arcane power, because 7 levels of Bard caster advancement are absolutely necessary to get into the Sublime Chord PrC (unless you went Bard 1/Imaginary Base Class That Gives Full BAB and Wizard Spell Level Progression 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1, or went Bard 1/Wizard 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1 and simply skipped on 16+ BAB).

EDIT: TL;DR: Your best class for gishing can be literally anything depending on your level of optimization, from low (Duskblade and other straight 20 classes that give BAB and spellcasting progression) to mid (Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard with the standard array of tricks, like the Sorcadin) to slightly above mid (Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard with the same array of tricks, only involving Tome of Battle and maneuvers as well; Jade Phoenix Mage and Warblade are popular in these) to CO (Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord, pulling all the stops).