Spellthief Build?

[Swiftx71]

Hey everyone.

Given the immense amount of help I received from you guys on my other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11625875#post11625875), I was wondering if you could help me out with another question o.o

Considering several people in the group mentioned in my previous thread have busy work-schedules, the few of us that are usually freed up usually can't play as often as we would like. Because of this, our DM was going to make a side-campaign based on the same setting he's come up with for a select few of us--and I was interested in perhaps trying out Spellthief.

Problem is, I get the feeling that this isn't too popular of a class, because I could barely find any helpful guides through my web-searches.

So, dare I ask if anyone has some interesting builds, tips, or any other sort of advice for Spellthief? I'm hoping it's not too much of a lost cause since its idea seems really fun, but considering the other two players plan on being a Warlock 16/Enlightened Soul 4 and the other a Fighter, I don't want to be so utterly over-shadowed by them that I'm only good for making skill-checks.

If I'm given a choice of preference, I'd like to build my character in such a way that he focuses on dealing spike-damage along with the added benefit of the spells he steals rather than focusing on using really high-level spells, thereby making it more of a caster with sneak-attack than the conceptual Spellthief. I heard about combining Spellthief with Duskblade so that they can channel the magic they steal into their weapon and sneak-attack with it, but considering I'm still a noob at D&D, I'm not sure how viable that would be just by looking at it (especially when my Warlock friend keeps going on-and-on about how much he likes Warlock and how awesome it's going to be >.>;)

So um, yeah. And if I may request, the more hand-holding/explaining/defining terms/providing the description of Feats and Spells/etc. you provide, the better. ^^ Thank you.

[Kaje]

Y'know how your warlock buddy can spam SLAs every round? Well if you want to, you can touch him and spam some other SLA every other round. Neat, huh?

[Swiftx71]

Y'know how your warlock buddy can spam SLAs every round? Well if you want to, you can touch him and spam some other SLA every other round. Neat, huh?

At 5th level maybe o.O

Didn't really answer my question though, I knew he could do that :\

[gorfnab]

Did you read through this Spellthief Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299)?

[Swiftx71]

Did you read through this Spellthief Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299)?

I did not, but I will right now. Thank you~

[King Atticus]

I know you actually want to play a spellthief so this won't be much help. But I read through the class the other day and wasn't overly impressed by it...except for the fact that it makes a very decent lvl 1 for a factotum build. It has nice HP and skill points and lets the factotum use utility type wands (non-blasty) without bothering with UMD.

Hope this doesn't derail the thread, just my thoughts.

[Tvtyrant]

Spellthief 7/Chameleon 10/?

Take the Master Spellthief feat to let your chameleon steal high level slots while using its own peculiar brand of beach justice.

[Swiftx71]

Spellthief 7/Chameleon 10/?

Take the Master Spellthief feat to let your chameleon steal high level slots while using its own peculiar brand of beach justice.

I've heard of Chameleon a few times, but haven't looked up what it does yet. I'll check it out.

Also, if anyone could answer real quick, if--for example--I just went pure Spellthief 20 and took Master Spellthief, does that make my caster level 20 instead of 10?

[Xtomjames]

Again I'll post, Spellfire Wielder feat. If you're going to play a spellthief take this feat.

[Greenish]

Take the Master Spellthief feat to let your chameleon steal high level slots while using its own peculiar brand of beach justice.Though note that Master Spellthief might not increase your capacity to hold spell levels.

Chameleon is here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b).

[Swiftx71]

Going to be doing a test run with the Spellthief at some point in the near future--will see how that goes.

When I get come time I'll look over Chameleon thoroughly and undoubtedly come back with questions afterward. (I'll also check out Spellfire Wielder).

So far though, it seems like a pretty broad class that gets a little complex. I'm assuming that there's some sort of technical trick it can do that'd help out Spellthief a lot?

If I may ask a favor, what exactly is it about Chameleon that makes it a notable class to pair Spellthief up with? If I know what sort of hook or deal-maker I'm looking for, specifically, it'll help me understand the way it's supposed to better.

[dextercorvia]

I've heard of Chameleon a few times, but haven't looked up what it does yet. I'll check it out.

Also, if anyone could answer real quick, if--for example--I just went pure Spellthief 20 and took Master Spellthief, does that make my caster level 20 instead of 10?

That is a highly debated piece of text. Some readings:

1. You calculate your CL as normal based on your class level. Now add your class level specified by Master Spellthief as a bonus to that CL. That would give your Spellthief 20 a CL of 30. Spellthief10/Wizard10 would have Spellthief CL of 25, and a Wizard CL of 30.

2. You calculate your CL as normal treating your Spellthief level as the sum of your Spellthief levels and all arcane spellcasting class levels. Spellthief20 has CL 10. Spellthief10/Wizard10 has Spellthief CL 10 and Wizard CL 20.

3. You add your CL in the classes together. Spellthief20 has CL 10 and Spellthief10/Wizard10 has CL 15 for both Spellthief and Wizard.

3. is the most common one that I see, but is just plain wrong if you read the feat. 1. and 2. could either be correct readings, but 1. gives highly inflated CLs under easily anticipated circumstances. 2. is my preference, as it seems to be balanced under normal usage. People balk at that reading anytime I use it with Chameleon because you can end up with a Chameleon CL of 40 or so fairly easily.

[Fax Celestis]

It's...pretty clear.


Benefit: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief.

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.

[dextercorvia]

The example text on CL doesn't make any sense. How do they stack the levels and then come up with a Spellthief CL of 8? I can get 4, 6 or 10, but I can't think of a logical way to apply that paragraph and come up with 8. Spellthiefs normally get 1/2 CL.

[Tvtyrant]

Going to be doing a test run with the Spellthief at some point in the near future--will see how that goes.

When I get come time I'll look over Chameleon thoroughly and undoubtedly come back with questions afterward. (I'll also check out Spellfire Wielder).

So far though, it seems like a pretty broad class that gets a little complex. I'm assuming that there's some sort of technical trick it can do that'd help out Spellthief a lot?

If I may ask a favor, what exactly is it about Chameleon that makes it a notable class to pair Spellthief up with? If I know what sort of hook or deal-maker I'm looking for, specifically, it'll help me understand the way it's supposed to better.

The essential reason Chameleon is good is it grants you so many different abilities. SA and arcane casting gets you greater invisibility so you can SA from the front, SA and divine casting gets you Holysword (+5 weapon for free) so it reduces TWF costs, both arcane and divine lets you use any spell completion item from any list, etc. Spellthief is designed to act as a halfway between a Rogue and a Wizard that also grants you the ability to steal slots; Chameleon advances both of those options and gives you more, while using Master Spellthief lets you use the slots from a Chameleon to steal high level spells.

[A Ladder]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0
this guide primarily focuses on using spellthief and the feat Master Spellthief, to make a full casting, sneak attacking character. I hope that's what you're looking for,

[Fax Celestis]

The example text on CL doesn't make any sense. How do they stack the levels and then come up with a Spellthief CL of 8? I can get 4, 6 or 10, but I can't think of a logical way to apply that paragraph and come up with 8. Spellthiefs normally get 1/2 CL.

Pretty simple. "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells." 4+4=8.

[dextercorvia]

Pretty simple. "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells." 4+4=8.

That doesn't make any sense. Normally Spellthiefs take their level and then divide by two. I don't see anything in Master Spellthief that removes the divide by two. So I can see an argument for

1. 4/2 +4 = 6, or

2. (4+4)/2 = 4 when calculating Spellthief caster level.

I can even see:

3. 4/2 + 4 + 4 =10.

[Rossebay]

That doesn't make any sense. Normally Spellthiefs take their level and then divide by two. I don't see anything in Master Spellthief that removes the divide by two. So I can see an argument for

1. 4/2 +4 = 6, or

2. (4+4)/2 = 4 when calculating Spellthief caster level.

I can even see:

3. 4/2 + 4 + 4 =10.

Not in the description, maybe. It's pretty easy to read the example they gave, though.

In the event that the tan background on quotes makes it difficult to read:

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

By that example (Spellthief 4/Wizard 4) we see that Spellthief levels are treated as whole caster levels when the Master Spellthief feat is taken. This also means that Master Spellthief grants a Spellthief full CL (going by the example), as this is the example given in the book.

[dextercorvia]

Not in the description, maybe. It's pretty easy to read the example they gave, though.

In the event that the tan background on quotes makes it difficult to read:

Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells.

By that example (Spellthief 4/Wizard 4) we see that Spellthief levels are treated as whole caster levels when the Master Spellthief feat is taken. This also means that Master Spellthief grants a Spellthief full CL (going by the example), as this is the example given in the book.

Unfortunately it is example text that contradicts the rule before it. It is also a more powerful CL boost for a straight Spellthief than any other feat, in addition to its other abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

It is also a more powerful CL boost for a straight Spellthief than any other feat, in addition to its other abilities.

Like the spellthief doesn't need the support? Other feats in the same book provide similar straight-upgrade benefits, like Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter.

[dextercorvia]

Like the spellthief doesn't need the support? Other feats in the same book provide similar straight-upgrade benefits, like Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter.

The difference is that a straight Rogue can't take Daring Outlaw and double his sneak attack damage.

[Fax Celestis]

The difference is that a straight Rogue can't take Daring Outlaw and double his sneak attack damage.

If you count full TWF coupled with 19/20 BAB, actually, he can.

[dextercorvia]

If you count full TWF coupled with 19/20 BAB, actually, he can.

By straight, I mean single-classed. For no more cost than taking the feat.

[Greymane]

I think, Dextercorvia, you're getting hung up on Caster Level vs Level in the feat. It specifically mentions the combined Levels to determine your Caster Level, not combine Caster Level of all those classes for Caster Level.

Am I correct? Or am I missing the point? :smallconfused:

[Diarmuid]

I think, Dextercorvia, you're getting hung up on Caster Level vs Level in the feat. It specifically mentions the combined Levels to determine your Caster Level, not combine Caster Level of all those classes for Caster Level.

Am I correct? Or am I missing the point? :smallconfused:

Genn's got the exact right of it. It doesnt say combine Spellthief Caster Level and Arcane spellcaster Caster Level, it just talks about adding the class levels together.

[dextercorvia]

But it says to do so when determining caster level. Class levels are used to determine caster level. In the case of a Wizard base CL is Wizard level (Ignoring PrCs for simplicity). For a Spellthief you determine CL as 1/2 their class level. So when it says to add together their class levels when determining caster level, without changing the way in which Spellthief CL is determined you add together Spellthief level and Wizard level to get your effective Spellthief level, which you should then divide by 2.

From a balance perspective, is there any other feat in the game which gives +10CL? That is what happens when a Spellthief 20 takes the feat, if you take the example text as RAW.

Edit: I guess what I'm saying is, if it said, "To determine CL, add your spellthief levels and levels in arcane spellcasting classes," that would agree with the example text. But, it says "When determining,..." which to me says that anything left explicitly unchanged about the process should remain unchanged

[Diarmuid]

I'm not saying it is/isnt balanced, I'm just commenting on how the feat works by RAW.

Feel free to interpret is as you chose.

[dextercorvia]

I'm not saying it is/isnt balanced, I'm just commenting on how the feat works by RAW.

Feel free to interpret is as you chose.

Is that how you would read it if the example text was not there?

[Greenish]

Is that how you would read it if the example text was not there?Yeah. You don't even need to have a CL with Spellthief to take the feat.

If it meant only caster levels from Spellthief and another casting class, it would say so, instead of using very specific language: "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

Your "arcane spellcaster level" isn't the same thing as your CL in an arcane caster class, so I don't see any reason why "spellthief level" would be synonymous with your spellthief CL.

[Diarmuid]

Thanks Greenish, I dont think I was going to explain that anywhere near as concisely and clearly as you just did.

[dextercorvia]

So Master Spellthief is a game changer. It gives all of your Arcane spells a caster level equal to the sum or you spellthief levels and arcane spellcasting levels. It still seems OP, but I can read it that way. Thanks for taking the time.

[Diarmuid]

Considering it doesnt advance your spell progression, and how stunted the SpellThief casting already is, I just dont see the OP at all except for a couple of specific spells where CL scales disproportionately, and even then those have to be taken on your non-Spellthief caster class, which again does not have its actual spell progression impacted, but only the actual CL of spells already available to you.

A 6/6 SpellThief/Sorceror with Master Spellthief still only has access to 6/6/5/3 level spells on his Sorc side and 0/1 spells on his ST side per day (plus bonus spells as applicable).

Sure that fireball is going to get the max 10d6 out of it, but when the 12th level Sorc is throwing around...well whatever good 6th level spells he throws around (too lazy to get an example from SpC atm) that's really not that big a deal IMO. And while that Spellthief can steal spells as if her were a 12 level Spellthief, he can only store then as a 6th level ST.

[Greenish]

So Master Spellthief is a game changer.Eh, before level 8 it's no better than Practiced Spellcaster, and it won't be until mid-high levels that it has a significant effect. By then, Spellthief's casting is pretty minor.

Was there any specific spell you think this'll break?

[dextercorvia]

Eh, before level 8 it's no better than Practiced Spellcaster, and it won't be until mid-high levels that it has a significant effect. By then, Spellthief's casting is pretty minor.

Was there any specific spell you think this'll break?

I meant game changer in that it completely rewrites the way that CL is calculated rather than working within the existing framework.

Obviously it won't break any spells, since CL20 isn't higher than any other class has, but it is one feat that has dramatic consequences. As you say, it isn't better than Practiced Spellcaster before level 9, but it isn't available until then either (for a single-classed Spellthief).

[Diarmuid]

There are a lot of things that change a specific rule.

Attempting a Trip invokes an attack of opportunity. Improved Trip not only does away with that, but gives you a +4 bonus to that check.

Similarly, there are plenty of spells that change intrinsic things of the game. Divine Power replaces your BAB with that of a full BAB class of your character level.

[Greenish]

I meant game changer in that it completely rewrites the way that CL is calculated rather than working within the existing framework.Well, it changes it for one class. 3.5 is a huge pile of exceptions loosely bound together by rules.


Obviously it won't break any spells, since CL20 isn't higher than any other class has, but it is one feat that has dramatic consequences.Dramatic consequences? :smalltongue:


Well, you don't have to like the way it works, and I admit it's a bit silly, but I think you might be exaggerating just slightly. :smallamused:

[Fax Celestis]

Well, there are some 'dramatic consequences'. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95070)

[Greenish]

Well, there are some 'dramatic consequences'. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95070)Neat. :smallamused:

[RagnaroksChosen]

It becomes dramatic when you factor in that your CL can get realy high.

Things like +1 CL to fire spells or +1 CL to good spells becomes +1 cl to all spells.

It gets nice.

[dextercorvia]

Well, it changes it for one class. 3.5 is a huge pile of exceptions loosely bound together by rules.

Dramatic consequences? :smalltongue:


Well, you don't have to like the way it works, and I admit it's a bit silly, but I think you might be exaggerating just slightly. :smallamused:

I mean that Craven is given a reputation for being OP for adding 20 damage to a sneak attack. This feat doubles a Spellthief's caster level. That is beyond what any other CL boosting feat in the game does.


Well, there are some 'dramatic consequences'. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95070)

Are you having a little fun at my expense?


It becomes dramatic when you factor in that your CL can get realy high.

Things like +1 CL to fire spells or +1 CL to good spells becomes +1 cl to all spells.

It gets nice.

Even I knew it doesn't work that way.

[Greenish]

I mean that Craven is given a reputation for being OP for adding 20 damage to a sneak attack.Really?


This feat doubles a Spellthief's caster level. That is beyond what any other CL boosting feat in the game does.Or, to put it in the perspective, it raises spellthief's CL to what most casters have by default. All feats all not made equal.


Are you having a little fun at my expense?There's a link there.

[dextercorvia]

Really?

Not here, but Enworld and other places. I'm not saying they are right.


Or, to put it in the perspective, it raises spellthief's CL to what most casters have by default. All feats all not made equal.

Which is why I said I doubted it was easily broken. Personally, I don't think it would hurt the game to give all (I haven't put much thought into it, there might be an exception.) half casters full caster level.


There's a link there.

Thanks, I guess I'm a little touchy. It isn't often that I need something explained to me 5 different ways.:smallfrown:

Question: What would a Wizard4/Sorcerer4/Spellthief4 have for CL with Master Spellthief? I read something in Fax's link which makes me think even my new understanding isn't quite right.

[Greenish]

Question: What would a Wizard4/Sorcerer4/Spellthief4 have for CL with Master Spellthief? I read something in Fax's link which makes me think even my new understanding isn't quite right.4+4+4=12. Fax's hax assumes that PrCs that advance casting advance arcane spellcaster levels, and thus Ultimate Magus (an arcane/arcane theurge) double-dips the advancement.

[dextercorvia]

4+4+4=12. Fax's hax assumes that PrCs that advance casting advance arcane spellcaster levels, and thus Ultimate Magus (an arcane/arcane theurge) double-dips the advancement.

That's what I thought. Someone in thread suggested otherwise, or I'm not adding correctly.