Infinite spells? PF Rules Fu needed

[Infernalbargain]

Spell perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) + echoing spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/echoing-spell-metamagic)

I have argued on the paizo boards that since echoing spell says that you can recast THAT spell you cannot use spell perfection to apply another echoing onto it since THAT spell has already had echoing put onto it (the second casting of it does not have echo on it, but it is none-the-less the same actual spell).


Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

[Luckmann]

And...?
necessary words

[Infernalbargain]

I'm look for second opinions whether this works.

[Luckmann]

Well I'm entirely with you; A spell can only be echoed once. The second use is only an echo of the first one.

[Xtomjames]

Well you can't get infinite spells with this, and you can't apply the same metamagic feat to the same spell more than once.

However, I do see an interesting conundrum about this metamagic feat Echo spell.

If we're talking strictly PF then there aren't any issues as Repeat spell doesn't seem to exist in PF as far as I can see. That said, if we were to cast a spell say using Echo spell first in the chain, then Spell Perfection, and then Repeat spell and if we presume that the spell as cast is cast again with Echo spell with all affects applied to it still, then the spell would repeat, reset as an echo, and repeat again.

Logic would work as follows: Echo spell captures and maintains an "echo" of the spell in the mind of the caster in the way that the spell was cast at the time of the metamagic feat being used (this includes all metamagic feats applied there after~ you can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell so long as it doesn't take up a slot beyond your grasp). You apply spell perfection gain it's bonuses and then choose repeat spell. Repeat spell recasts the same spell with all progressions of metamagic in the following round, including echo spell. Thus you'd gain not one but two echoes of the same spell in your head. You cast it again with each echo and you'd gain an exponential increase in the number of spells as echoes kept in your head, all castable as a free action without using up a new spell slot.

I suspect that most DM's wouldn't allow this obviously, but as a mental exercise I do believe it works.

[Infernalbargain]

I believe echoing is supposed to be their version of repeat since repeat is closed content.

[Xtomjames]

Probably though they work in completely different ways. Hence the mechanics as I explained it. In an open game that uses both PF and 3.5 that could be an annoying thing.

[Blisstake]

I can't find the link right now, but one of the devlopers said that this definiely isn't intentional, and that it will likely be changed in the first errata for UM so that Echoed spells can't have metamagic applied to them.

So... be careful if your DM keeps up with errata.

[Xtomjames]

True, but few do. Until the errata comes out that is a nasty loophole I've come up with.

[Siosilvar]

So the combo is as follows:
Feats
Spell Perfection (Spell X)
Echoing Spell

1. Cast Spell X, use Spell Perfection to apply Echoing Spell.
2. Cast Spell X using echo, using Spell Perfection to apply Echoing Spell.
3. Goto 2.

...I think the "one additional time per day" wording in Echoing spell may be the catch here. You can get the first echo, but any more and you've already cast the spell "one additional time".

You could, however, apply a different metamagic to the second spell using Spell Perfection, if I'm reading this right.