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Jubal_Barca
2011-08-13, 10:27 AM
Okay, would quite like people's thoughts on this.

The RPG market is very broad and a lot of commercial RPGs do very well (DnD, Paranoia, Shadowrun, etc). However, it is also a market with lots of competing and excellently made systems, which may make people less likely to bother looking at ones from new sources.

So how "saturated" with different games do you think the commercial RPG books market is?

I ask, as might be obvious, because I have a fair idea that sometime in the next year or so I'll have developed my RPG rules to a stage where they could be fully compiled. I'd love to do it as a book (probably with the tie-in story taking up a fair chunk of the book, then the rules, further background, and a sample campaign with more background and rules to be added in area-based supplements if there's interest). However, I'm fairly doubtful as to whether there would be anything like enough interest in a more left-field/new system when the bulk of the RP community are running a huge plethora of current commercial systems, homebrews, free systems, and so on.

Sooo... thoughts?

erikun
2011-08-13, 10:50 AM
So how "saturated" with different games do you think the commercial RPG books market is?
My buzzword sensors are ringing.

No, seriously. Market saturation is a term used for automobiles and personal computers, and refers to a point when nearly every customer who would possibly purchase one already has. It is a concern to large mass-production companies, who base their sales estimates on selling to new users entering the market and thus risk stagnation or large losses if they keep producing new units when they run out of new users.

As someone producing a new RPG on a (relatively) small scale, you shouldn't be worrying about market saturation. It is neither something that you will impact nor something that should be a concern to you, unless you become insanely lucky. You would be more concerned about the saturation of the fantasy-novel market, as unless you are a big name or can afford a large amount of marketing, simply getting your book into most stores would be a challange.

As for your RPG, how much people would want to buy it depends on a lot of factors. Most of the world is still lagging a bit due to the extended recession, from last I heard, so people are picky about how they spend their recreation money. They are spending money, but they've tended towards more worthwhile and longer-lasting activities that feel more valuable. This would mean you're better off with a smaller, compact, good-looking, good-reading rulebook than something like 3 core rulebooks + supplements + campaign modules. (No doubt this is part of why D&D 4e is having such trouble.)

Are you aiming at a non-traditional market? Doing so could get you a lot of sales, but it would be a lot tougher to convince people to pick up your system - you'd both need to convince people that roleplaying is worth spending money on, while either bucking the D&D-nerd trend or convincing people that it is cool. You also risk not picking up the traditional market, who may find your system too "simple" or too "casual". See Nintendo's Wii for an example, both of aiming at another market, how to advertise as such, and how it can be successful/failing.

EccentricCircle
2011-08-13, 11:22 AM
I don't have much knowledge of marketing so can't give you an objective answer as to whether the market is saturated or not, but my feeling as someone who buys and plays roleplaying games is that there are enough "generic" systems out there to cover all of the bases.

a game will sell if:

a) its attached to an established brand (D&D, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Call of Cthulhu etc.)

unlikely to be an option for people like us... though who knows.

b) is attached to an established work (Lord of the Rings RPG, Star Wars RPG, Name of the Wind RPG... etc)

again difficult though prehaps not as hard as option a)

c) its really interesting and inovative!

now this you can probably do. I'd say that in terms of rules you are unlikely to be able to come up with something thats never been done before and yet is so staggeringly brillient that people will have to buy your game.
but its certainly possible to create a world or a story that will draw peoples attention.
you might need to look for a gap in the market. there are large and successful RPG's for Fantasy, Space Opera, Cyberpunk, Horror, but there are certainly other genres that don't have a single monolithic system that will immediately spring to mind when you mention a game in that setting in the way that D&D does when someone says high fantasy or well, cyberpunk does when someone says cyberpunk.

without knowing what you are working on its hard to say whether it has a niche. but if you can do it then i'd give it a go, even if you don't expect to sell many books/pdfs

randomhero00
2011-08-13, 11:40 AM
I think it'd be very difficult to publish an RPG atm. So far in my experience (me trying to get my friends to play other games heh) its very difficult to get people to try and then stick with playing a new RPG. But who knows? Maybe yours is ground breaking and will blow all others out of the water.

Oracle_Hunter
2011-08-13, 11:53 AM
a game will sell if:

a) its attached to an established brand (D&D, Shadowrun, World of Darkness, Call of Cthulhu etc.)

b) is attached to an established work (Lord of the Rings RPG, Star Wars RPG, Name of the Wind RPG... etc)

c) its really interesting and inovative!
QFT

Really, Market Saturation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_saturation) is not what you need to worry about, but the more basic Supply & Demand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand) and Market Segmentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_segmentation).

First, let's divide "Pen & Paper RPGs" into the three markets EccentricCircle suggests above.

Market A is Rules Heavy RPGs Market. These are established systems with substantial player-bases and, more importantly, lots and lots of rules and books. These generally have a price point of $20-$40 per book. Considering the amount of time and money it takes to produce a RPG at this level (much less market it in competition with the Big Boys) we'll say that the Barriers to Entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_to_entry) for this market are too high for the average start-up.

Market B is Established Work RPG Market. These are frequently recycled systems which are then tied to a established fictional work - Firefly, Star Wars, etc. - and then somewhat modified to fit. They are generally priced a bit lower than in Market A and consumers pick these because they're interested in the Established Work. Since licenses are expensive and require contact with "famous people" the Barriers of Entry here are also likely too high.

Market C is the Rules Light RPG Market. These are usually systems that don't have many rules or large player bases. These systems (not individual books) are frequently offered for $10 or less. Rules Light systems typically do not require a lot of time or money to produce, but consumers of them are either looking for novelty or "rules elegance" so skill is more important.

Market C is where the average starting RPG producer needs to start, but with such low Barriers to Entry, there are a lot of RPGs in this market segment. As a result, you'll need to be very competitive amongst your peers if you want to make any money -- and with the price point for this Market so low, you're not likely to make as much money as you spend.
In short: don't make a game because you want to make money; make a game because you want to make a game.

Jubal_Barca
2011-08-13, 04:41 PM
I was using the word saturation with my "this will get over what I mean to people most easily I think" hat on as opposed to my economist's hat, but thank-you for the terminological clarifications (albeit them being not so necessary). :smallwink:

As to the design; the setting is fairly unusual, think approximately late 16th to early 17th centuries with hints of clockpunk, steampunk, and gothic. I've built it in quite a lot of depth, with the aforementioned accompanying story as well. I built the RPG to fit the story which was fit to built the world, so it's pretty fluff-grounded and has plenty of quirks and depth. It's certainly something I've made because I want to make it; the question is definitely not whether I make a game, it's whether I decide to try publishing the finished version.

In terms of rules density, the mechanics are 2d6 based and whilst playing are pretty lightweight. There's a pretty wide range of skills players can opt to take, with the idea that characters can have a lot of depth in terms of abilities, careers, and background but that in general that doesn't slow down gameplay much since the actual mechanics are pretty simple.

So yeah... I've got about 3/4 of the story complete, the core mechanics are being tested, and the main thing that needs doing is really adding fluff to the rulebook (descriptions of careers, and the fairly chunky background section).

EccentricCircle
2011-08-13, 05:07 PM
It certainly sounds interesting.

I can't think of a good renaisance clockpunk/steampunk RPG off the top of my head. So that at least sugests that if there is such a game already it isn't ubiquitous.
indeed I was thinking of steampunk when I was writing about niches that don't have a major system that people will turn to as the default. there are plenty of steampmk games, but it would be tough to say that one is THE steampunk game.I don't doubt that there are plenty of independant games that would be competitors you wouldn't be massively overshadowed by something else, as anyone trying to publish a straight medieval fantasy game would.

Fantasy games can be adapted to that kind of setting without much hassle (i'm currently running a D&D Reaisance steampunk game for example), so that might cut into your audience a bit. If you are offering a very indepth setting then that will help, as thats somethign people can't get by adapting an existing system. although you might want to weigh that against appealing to people who like to build their own settings.

you would need to work to keep costs down as much as possible, maybe by publishing electronically. I understand that to be more efficient than printing for small game systems, as thats where a lot of the costs are.

erikun
2011-08-13, 05:34 PM
As to the design; the setting is fairly unusual, think approximately late 16th to early 17th centuries with hints of clockpunk, steampunk, and gothic. I built the RPG to fit the story which was fit to built the world, so it's pretty fluff-grounded and has plenty of quirks and depth.
This reminds me of the Victoriana (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14825.phtml) system. That book had a problem with being a bit too expensive, but it did go into depth of magic, technology, politics, and what was happening in various countries around the world.


It's certainly something I've made because I want to make it; the question is definitely not whether I make a game, it's whether I decide to try publishing the finished version.

So yeah... I've got about 3/4 of the story complete, the core mechanics are being tested, and the main thing that needs doing is really adding fluff to the rulebook (descriptions of careers, and the fairly chunky background section).
If you will be completing it regardless and look to be publishing it anyways, then I would look at how you can publish and distribute the books for the cheapest cost rather than the best way to market them at large.

I mean, if you can work a deal with a publishing company to print them on-demand, and can offer to ship them out through your own website, you should be able to sell them at a profit with minimal overhead. This would both keep your costs down (so that you can do it as a side business) and it means you won't be concerned with time-sensitive production; if now is a bad time to be selling games, you'll still be in business and offering the system several years from now.

This advice won't help you if you're looking at quitting your job and working on RPG design full time, though, so ignore me if that's your plans.

nihil8r
2011-08-14, 12:22 AM
good analysis, oracle hunter. :)

Knaight
2011-08-14, 01:00 AM
Market C is the Rules Light RPG Market. These are usually systems that don't have many rules or large player bases. These systems (not individual books) are frequently offered for $10 or less. Rules Light systems typically do not require a lot of time or money to produce, but consumers of them are either looking for novelty or "rules elegance" so skill is more important.

I've seen a few models here, for various systems that broke into the market in a big way. The dirt cheap model (e.g. Savage Worlds) that you mention is one of them. Another is one where a free, complete product is offered as a PDF or similar, with other stuff as well (Fate, Fudge), another is where enough is shown for the truly innovative to shine through (Burning Wheel).

FelixG
2011-08-14, 01:00 AM
For distribution, you could try PDF distribution to start with, then if the system garners interest you could look into printing books on demand.

PDFs cost you little to nothing and will test the waters nicely, there is very little that could be worse than pumping a lot of money into a run of books only to have them sit with you because no one is buying.

Also a word to the wise: Artwork. People like pretty pictures, it will help sell some people, I have seen a number of works panned because they had no pictures, as silly as that is in a game based around your imagination.

Knaight
2011-08-14, 01:37 AM
Also a word to the wise: Artwork. People like pretty pictures, it will help sell some people, I have seen a number of works panned because they had no pictures, as silly as that is in a game based around your imagination.

Yeah, this is absolutely necessary. Artwork is part of getting layout right, and if the layout isn't good, people won't stick around to read the game. That said, art can be cheap to get, particularly if you only use previously existing art without buying the rights to it. Basically, permission to use is cheap to come by, exclusive permission to use is pricey, and actual commissions are extremely expensive.

Balain
2011-08-14, 02:15 AM
As was said I think the best way is to sell pdf versions at first. The cost of printing books yourself is very high for a good production value. Unless you have money to burn.

We live in an age now that you can sell the book in pdf version so no printing cost to you. There are even websites that will publish books on demand as people order them, cheaper for you.

As for the saturation of RPGs on the market. It depends, back in the 80's maybe into the early 90's there were waaaaaaaaay waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more RPGs at my local gaming store. Heck back in the 80's between our group of friends we owned 150 or so different systems.

The same local gaming store now a lot of the shelves that had RPGs on them now have board games.

There are a lot of independent systems out there (most sold as pdfs) that are very good and original.

Another problem the rpg market is going down hill. Most of the people buying rpg games still are ones that played in the heyday of rpgs. There are some new blood but mostly the aging players. Which for a market stand point isn't so bad cause aging players tend to spend more money than younger kids.

Anyways I was rambling on enough and since I'm tired making no sense I bet lol

Anyways Best idea pdf first.....

Actually there was a game...hmm can't think of the name. The creators gave the main book away for free as a pdf (you could buy a printed version if you wanted) and all the extra materials sold as pdf or as books. If I remember right it did fairly well for a while.

Jubal_Barca
2011-08-14, 05:18 AM
There are elements of Victoriana, but the setting is most definitely earlier in terms of time period and technology, and the magic and fantasy is kept to a lower overall level.

I'm definitely not looking at quitting my job, not least because I don't have one (still in education, and the education most definitely comes first).

In terms of printing or PDFing; do you think many people do bother buying PDFs? Furthermore, how do you think PDF systems get noticed/get customers? I suspect this will be my option #1, anyhow. Perhaps putting the core of the rules in a PDF, then looking at offering the full background and such in a printed format?

In terms of artwork, how "pro" do you all think it needs to be? Commissions from professional artists would almost certainly be very pricey, the same from art students or finding someone on (godshelpme) DA probably much less so...

EccentricCircle
2011-08-14, 05:56 AM
Really I'd say the artwork needs to be as good as it possibly can be.
in many ways thats just as important as the text.

I'd aim to have at least one picture on each page of your book, they don't all have to be full colour masterpieces, but there should be something to break up the flow of the text.

you can produce a number of smaller black and white pictures that can be scattered throughout the book, and then put "proper" pictures where you really need them. the black and white 3e D&D books do this quite a lot.
but you will likely need several hundred images depending on the length of your book. I'm currently doing the illustrations for my homebrew game and its proving to be almost as difficult as writing it!

As for finding artwork do you have any artistic friends? people who might be willing to do some illustrations for you (and whom you can pay for their time.) but who wouldn't charge the massive rates of professional artists.
One option might be to put out a message here and see who replies. there are certainly artists on this board. I know a similar thread a while back ended with people offering their services.

another option might be to take some art classes yourself. That would certainly be one of the cheapest options, though potentially one of the most time consuming depending on how long it took you to get good enough for your product.

FelixG
2011-08-14, 08:49 AM
There are elements of Victoriana, but the setting is most definitely earlier in terms of time period and technology, and the magic and fantasy is kept to a lower overall level.

I'm definitely not looking at quitting my job, not least because I don't have one (still in education, and the education most definitely comes first).

In terms of printing or PDFing; do you think many people do bother buying PDFs? Furthermore, how do you think PDF systems get noticed/get customers? I suspect this will be my option #1, anyhow. Perhaps putting the core of the rules in a PDF, then looking at offering the full background and such in a printed format?

In terms of artwork, how "pro" do you all think it needs to be? Commissions from professional artists would almost certainly be very pricey, the same from art students or finding someone on (godshelpme) DA probably much less so...

For the PDFs: I honestly dont even buy books anymore, I much prefer PDFs as I can load them onto my phone/laptop and have them wherever I go, they are searchable (god I love being able to just type in a phrase I am looking for and jump straight to the proper rule) and there is no chance to loose/ruin them, if it becomes corrupted you just download it again!

For distribution you could look into Paizo, they host various items, they have a news mailer that you may be able to get into, then you could spread via word of mouth, links, host a few PbP games using your system, that sort of thing to garner interest.

On the artwork, it can vary, as was said before, people will appreciate even an attempt, black and white illustrations are nice because it helps your suspension of disbelief by giving your mind the building blocks for the world, that being said do you have any friends that like to draw? Likewise is there an art school near where you live?

Students that need X number of pieces for their portfolio for their class would likely jump at the chance to make a few bucks and get credit for their work, not to mention that they could also add it to their future resume, saying they have an artists credit for Y publisher/game.

Ya Ta Hey!
2011-08-14, 11:32 AM
I can't think of a good renaisance clockpunk/steampunk RPG off the top of my head. So that at least sugests that if there is such a game already it isn't ubiquitous.

Damn it! I was gonna make one of those. I've been ...clockblocked.

***

In all seriousness, this has a lot of parallels with software and electronic entertainment--there are a lot of good products out there for free, many people have the skills to make a startup, and its hard to imagine a niche thats completely untouched.

This is some good advice from Paul Graham, who runs an amazingly effective startup accelerator called Y-Combinator. Its geared toward software, but the wisdom is good.

Source (http://ycombinator.com/atyc.html)

Another Source (http://paulgraham.com/start.html)




Usually we advise startups to launch when they've built something with a quantum of utility—when they've built something sufficiently better than existing options that at least some users would say "I'm glad this appeared, because now I can finally do x." If what you've built is a subset of existing technology at the same price, then users have no reason to try it, which means you don't get to start the conversation with them. You need a quantum of utility to get a toehold.

Since there are a large number of points on the perimeter of most existing technologies at which one could push outward to create a quantum blister, what to build first is one of the most important questions we talk about. The general answer is to pick something where the product of how fast it can be built and how excited users would be about it is high. (How excited is distinct from how many would be excited.) But in practice the answer tends to be very specific to each startup. The goal is for office hours to end with the founders having a clear direction and saying "OK, we'll go build x." That goal is almost always achieved, though in practice about 10% of the time x turns out to be a bad idea and we have to go back to the drawing board.




EDIT:

Personally, I would not count on the uniqueness of setting/style alone to sell the game, well conceived though it may be (and ignoring my vested interest in that genre :smalltongue:).

Someone I know wrote a book about Multiple Sclerosis that compiles some very groundbreaking new research, significant enough that it could potentially mean the cure for a crippling disease that has frustrated science for over a century. There is good information in this book. However, despite the potential audience of millions, no more than 300 copies have been sold in the year since it came out.

Likewise, I bet your setting is really cool, but unless you can convey it all in a glance at the cover art or get some amazing word of mouth, you'll have a hard time getting past people's second thoughts when it comes time to whip out the credit card. If you're going to go that way, you might write a companion novel and bundle it with the game.

Remmirath
2011-08-14, 10:48 PM
I'm personally not very fond at all of PDFs, greatly preferring printed books - but it seems the best way to go for you, what with the cost of printing and all. If it does well that way, I suppose you could always then start offering printed books.

I'd advise against the 'offer part as PDF, then the rest as printed book' model, however. People typically aren't thrilled with having to pay twice for two parts of the same product. Offering the core part completely for free wouldn't give terribly much incentive to the buy the rest of it, though, so if there's a better solution I can't think of it.



In terms of artwork, how "pro" do you all think it needs to be? Commissions from professional artists would almost certainly be very pricey, the same from art students or finding someone on (godshelpme) DA probably much less so...

I would say that all depends on the feel you're going for, and that the artwork fitting the atmosphere of the game is the most important thing. For example, 1st edition AD&D had a very different feel to it from 3rd or 4th edition, and the artwork reflects that. I don't think that rulebook artwork need be perfect - certainly I'm not fond of the art in every rulebook I own, and dislike it in some. The way I see it, the art in a rulebook is there to convey the tone of the setting/classes/what have you and sometimes illustrate how the rules work.

I would think you should be able to get away with a full colour painting for the cover (or possibly skip the cover for a PDF? I've never bought a PDF version of a game, and don't know how they are typically laid out), and black and white (possibly lineart or such) illustrations for the interior. That would be cheaper/easier than paintings all 'round.

Before you go looking about for an artist, it would be a good idea to know what sort of art you are looking for and have some guidelines. Do you want the art to fit the art style of the time period? Serious or funny? Realistic or not? Things like that. People are more likely to be interested in a project if they know what sort of thing is going to be required of them, and it would also make your job in choosing easier as they would be more likely to be able to provide examples similar to what you require. Depending on how many illustrations you are going for, you may want several different artists, and then you might also want to take into account how cohesive you want the overall art style of the book to be when looking for them.

Asking friends, art students who need things for their portfolios, people here, or people on DA (the thing with DA is, there's so much there that you have to look to find the good stuff) are all things that I think have the potential to work.

Balain
2011-08-15, 12:49 AM
Artwork in modern rpg books does mater. You want a good colour picture on the cover, maybe even the back cover too or one bigger picture that spreads across front/spine/back(if it's a book format) Pdf you can get away with art on the cover. Then smaller pictures through out the book, black and white is fine but they need to look fairly good. and somehow relate to the text on the page.

Grab a bunch of rpg books and flip through them, see how many pictures they have and how many pages, come up with a picture to pages ration and that's roughly how many pictures you should have.

If you have artistic friends see if they can make some artwork for you. Go to art schools see if you can get students to make art work for you. Having a couple or three or 4 art styles would also be good. You may have to offer royalties to the artists if you can't pay them up front, which means maybe better art work if you pick theie artwork for the book. Since the better the art work the more money they could make.

Jubal_Barca
2011-08-17, 09:49 AM
Are there any particular art styles you've seen that you think really do or really don't work? Or does it depend entirely on the RPG in question?

EccentricCircle
2011-08-17, 11:03 AM
I'd say it really depends on the RPG.
a silly RPG can afford to have cartoony art, while a more serious or gritty game will look better if its illustrated in a more realistic style.
a dark film noir sort of setting might look better with black and white art, whereas something of a lighter tone would probably benefit from colour if you can get it.
i'd aim for consistancy between all of your illustrations, especially with regards fashion and the aesthetics of the setting, different artists will have different ideas as to what Renaisance clockpunk means, from trenchcoats and fancy hats to piratey outfits. Steampunk itself is based on an aesthetic as much as on any sort of plot element, and yet the ways in which people take that basic aesthetic can lead to a variety of different results all of which are still steampunk but with a very different look and feel

so i'd draw up some guidelines and do some sketches of what you want it to look like to give to your artists as a guide. this is especially important if different factions within your world have very different fashion or aesthetics to start with, you want to ensure that a picture of an x is instantly recognisable as being of x rather than there being so many different ideas of what both X and Y look like that a reader won't instantly know wherether a picture is meant to be of one or the other.

Knaight
2011-08-17, 01:35 PM
Are there any particular art styles you've seen that you think really do or really don't work? Or does it depend entirely on the RPG in question?

It depends entirely on the RPG in question, but a unified style is pretty much always a good thing. As for art styles that don't work, outside of the obvious (Pottery, 3d papercraft, so on and so forth), none don't work universally.

Tyndmyr
2011-08-17, 02:23 PM
The market is saturated as hell with low-quality systems trying to establish a foothold.

Actual good systems that I routinely enjoy playing? I can count those on one hand, and I've got fingers left over.

Aright, lets look at what was on display at Gencon. You've got the big names, of course(if you don't know what these are...market research time)....but the startups, those are what you are. Those were like...80-90% zombie games. God, I was tired of looking at games where the shtick was "we have zombies!". Mechanics were frequently terrible.

One RPG I demoed had a mechanic of this. Skill + 4d6. 20 = success. You could lose health to pull off a success. Initiative was determined by the GM asking whoever was going "do you want to do anything else?" over and over again until he eventually said no. Penalties and what was possible appeared to be entirely arbitrary, and were not consistent over the course of a short demo game.

It was friggin terrible. I don't even have a clue what the art was, or how the book looked, because after that demo, I had absolutely no interest in pursuing it further.

Other settings were like "Wee, we're low magic. I'm gonna spend fifteen minutes talking about my custom deities and politics of groups you cannot possibly have ever heard of. They're all humans and elves, though. Nothing original. Except werewolves. God, we like werewolves. Those are original, right?"

So yeah. It's doable. If you have quality, and get some solid playtesting, feedback, and so on. Know the current market. Don't be a crappy clone of what is already common. Find something unique, and make sure the consumers know about it.

Bearpunch
2011-08-17, 03:23 PM
Well, just from browsing around, I've noticed that while the RPG market is heavily saturated, what you are doing is something that I've both been unable to find and something I would pay money to play.

I also highly suggest a print to order setup, I hate PDFs.

But, what can really kill an RPG for me (besides awful mechanics) is a lack of originality in races/classes. Give me a couple (2 is okay, even!) unique races and a few unique classes.

Also, pirates never hurt. Ever.

Knaight
2011-08-17, 04:31 PM
But, what can really kill an RPG for me (besides awful mechanics) is a lack of originality in races/classes. Give me a couple (2 is okay, even!) unique races and a few unique classes.

Yeah, classes are an indication of awful mechanics. :smallcool:

whitelaughter
2011-08-19, 11:41 PM
Very. Gamers who've been around for a while will have large numbers of now dead systems gathering dust that they can pullout when nostalgia strikes; new gamers will have their favourite systems.

Your mid term goal should be to run your system at a few conventions; this lets you see your market's kneeejerk reaction, and gets word out.
To get ready for this, you need a set of prefab adventures to establish mood, to establish that characters can be created quickly by people who know nothing about the system, and a setting that you know well and that players can intuitively understand.

Settting is a biggie: You need to choose between that people have access to (ie historical/literary) or made up (in which case you will need to rely heavily on soudbites that swiftly build the setting).
Historical: If you're an American, I would suggest your civil war, the border clashes with Spain, or one of the early colonial expanisions. Something you can easily research and which your players will have a general grasp of.
Literary: you are after something out of copyright that is well known but not already taken. Moby **** is an obvious choice, but hunting whales is likely to creep most players (of course, a game where you play the whales...) Existing examples: Pendragon, 7thSea, paranoia. Can't think of a decent Robin Hood game, so that's an option.
Made up: this is actually the hardest, as you're effectively writing a world book from scratch - and will immediately be compared with the best that has been written to this point. This gets harder very year: frex there's no way that Greyhawk would have survived if written now. There is a need for a decent current day setting, taking advantage of our use of mobile phones, the interent etc: a setting where you play Y-gens exploiting modern tech, or babyboomers fighting against the almost magical new world, are both options. A scientifically believable near future, colonising the moon/mars/the sea bed is needed, but requires both a high scientific knowledge on your part and a system that can carry players with little knowledge of science.

Yora
2011-08-20, 08:40 AM
I would have no problem at all getting into a new RPG and possibly investing in 10 books or more, if someone would make a game that works better for the type of adventures I like to run, than those that are already out there.

It's not that I like d20 very much, but since there's nothing out there that would be a real improvement, I stick to PF. But only as long until someone comes up with something better.

hamishspence
2011-08-20, 09:00 AM
(of course, a game where you play the whales...)

Maybe something in the vein of Bunnies & Burrows...

Totally Guy
2011-08-21, 01:24 AM
I would have no problem at all getting into a new RPG and possibly investing in 10 books or more, if someone would make a game that works better for the type of adventures I like to run, than those that are already out there.

What kind of adventures do you like to run?

Yora
2011-08-21, 07:01 AM
I'd prefer a game, in which characters stay roughly within the limits of actual humans when it comes to combat prowress and endurance. The very top limit that humans could reach (which is an awful lot according to many stories of what people went through and survived), but not to a point where physics stop working. And characters should stay in this power range all the time, regardless of how often their abilities advance.
Also, the players should focus on the descisions and interactions of their characters, that means the rules should be relatively simple without a great deal of special abilities that can be combined in countless ways to create unpredictable synergy effects between them. This also means character creation should be fairly simple, so the players never start to think of their characters as a package of abilities, but more like people with motivations.
Obstacles should be overcome by outwitting the opponents and using the environments, not just by simply having learned an ability that with a single dice roll just makes the enemy fall dead.

And last, which is completely unrelated, I don't like dice pools.

I looked into a lot of RPGs and they all seem to fall into two types of systems: d20 level based, which swamps you in a pile of abilities and enough hit points to survive a couple of critical hits with a greataxe, or dice pool systems with 5000 abilities to freely chose from.

The one notable exception I've seen so far is Mouse Guard, but I find it hard to adept to other settings.
Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are to video games, that I think manage very well how I'd like to see character advancement, but I don't think those approaches could easily be transfered to pen and paper games.

Shep
2011-08-21, 01:53 PM
My opinion is that the rpg market is essentially already saturated, and that the growth of any product on the market comes essentially at the expense of an existing product. This is not to say that a new product couldn't succeed (the makers of Magic the Gathering essentially absorbed D&D through their success) but that the same players who play the same types of games now will be the ones you have to lure from whatever systems they currently play.

I've tried recruiting friends to play D&D through all editions for 25 years. I've also mixed in James Bond, Twilight 2000, Villains and Vigilantes, Mechwarrior, and bunches of others but those are my favs. Throughout all this time, I've usually been able to get a pretty good fix on which friends would enjoy rpg's and which friends would not. There are certain characteristics that generally go along with a gamer, and while the hobby and it's level of exposure may have fluctuated through the years, people I've known who enjoy playing have not. There's only so many of us who are going to enjoy a hobby with multiple 500 pg rulebooks (yes, not all rule books are so large, but Pathfinder is). It takes a certain level of patience, intelligence and imagination to be able to play the game, if not in every player then at least in the GM.

edit: changed avatar as I didn't like the way monk-guy was frowning at me. :)

Knaight
2011-08-21, 07:13 PM
I looked into a lot of RPGs and they all seem to fall into two types of systems: d20 level based, which swamps you in a pile of abilities and enough hit points to survive a couple of critical hits with a greataxe, or dice pool systems with 5000 abilities to freely chose from.

Go take a look at Fate 2, Fudge, Savage Worlds*, or any number of relatively rules light systems which favor low power games.

*I personally hate this one, but whatever.

Tyndmyr
2011-08-21, 09:44 PM
Go take a look at Fate 2, Fudge, Savage Worlds*, or any number of relatively rules light systems which favor low power games.

*I personally hate this one, but whatever.

Yeah, this. Rules heavy systems do tend to fall into those two categories frequently...but not always. And rules light systems come in a wildly varying number of flavors.

My typical suggestion list for people who want to experience a variety of gaming is D&D 3.5, 7th Sea, Paranoia and Call of Cthulhu. It hits a variety of genres and a variety of mechanical systems. It's by no means complete(I could see a solid argument for the inclusion of Deadlands, say), but it's a solid start, and you really do have to play a few systems to really understand what's out there. It's nearly impossible to write a really good RPG without understanding them.

whitelaughter
2011-08-22, 09:53 AM
As to the design; the setting is fairly unusual, think approximately late 16th to early 17th centuries with hints of clockpunk, steampunk, and gothic.
Sounds good. You're sort of clashing with 7th Sea/Flashing Blades etc, but as those systems are out of print fans of those systems will likely be interested in giving your system a whirl.

Tiki Snakes
2011-08-22, 11:11 AM
You never know, really. If you can find Artists who are passionate about the subject, perhaps you could work out some kind of Bulk-Order deal on commissions? Discount-by-volume?

Depending on how much you're willing to spend, it could be worth looking into.

Knaight
2011-08-22, 11:28 AM
You never know, really. If you can find Artists who are passionate about the subject, perhaps you could work out some kind of Bulk-Order deal on commissions? Discount-by-volume?
I'd strongly recommend avoiding commissions like the plague. The front cover could use one, other than that see about using existing work - artists tend to charge less for that, unless you want some sort of exclusivity deal.

Jubal_Barca
2011-08-23, 03:48 PM
The trouble with existing art is that I have quite a lot of factions and images which I feel are fairly iconic and specific to the setting - I'm only going to get those via some sort of commissioning, and if I mix those with non-commission stuff I'd get more of a mix of styles than might be appropriate.

Tyndmyr
2011-08-24, 08:11 AM
Sounds good. You're sort of clashing with 7th Sea/Flashing Blades etc, but as those systems are out of print fans of those systems will likely be interested in giving your system a whirl.

I actually rather doubt that with the case of 7th Sea. It's a fanbase that's surprisingly loyal to/fond of the system. How many systems have sourcebooks that still sell for hundreds of dollars, after all? Or are so frequently actively played a decade after they are out of print?

People have tried to hit the swashbuckling genre before...hell, there as a D20 version of 7th Sea. It was...pretty unpopular.

I would suggest a different genre. Avoid swashbuckling, avoid very tolkienish fantasy, and avoid zombies. Each of those genres is filled with a giant pile of landmines for the aspiring publisher, mostly in the form of existing systems and expectations.