The Crusader and Stances

[dark.sun.druid]

I was just wondering about how exactly stances work with the crusader. Or, rather, how acquiring them works. Because the Crusader only gets 4 stances ever, and those stances come at levels that don't necessarily correspond to the levels of the stances one might wish to take. For example, my current predicament:

A Crusader gains stances at levels 1, 2, 9 & 14. However, the four stances I want to take can be taken (at the earliest) at levels 1 (Martial Spirit, no problem with this one), 5 (Crushing Weight of Mountains, three level too late), 11 (Aura of Chaos, two levels too late), and 15 (Immortal Fortitude, one level too late). Can I delay learning new stances so that I can get these? It seems reasonable, since they are all from the Devoted Spirit discipline, and that is only available to Crusaders (e.g. it would be very poor design if a Crusader couldn't take them).

Did I overlook some rule that allows this, or is there no rule written for it? And, if the latter, would you agree that I should be able to delay taking new stances for 1-3 levels so that I can get the ones I want?

[Partysan]

You didn't overlook anything. Basically, the people who wrote the book didn't care to check if the progression actually made sense and we all know the tragic fate of the errata. That's WotC editing for you.

[Tvtyrant]

Taking three levels in another ToB class would bring your IL up at the right time, so three swordsage or Warblade levels.

[Greenish]

Can I delay learning new stances so that I can get these?No.


it would be very poor design if a Crusader couldn't take themQuite.


Did I overlook some rule that allows this, or is there no rule written for it? And, if the latter, would you agree that I should be able to delay taking new stances for 1-3 levels so that I can get the ones I want?The developers admitted crusader stances come at wrong levels. Had there been an errata it would probably have been fixed.

[Edit]:
Taking three levels in another ToB class would bring your IL up at the right time, so three swordsage or Warblade levels.1/2 IL, so you'd want even number of levels to adjust your crusader IL.

[dark.sun.druid]

All right, thank you all. I'm going to bring it up with my DM and see if he'll houserule letting me delay the new stances. He's a new DM, so I don't know what his reaction will be like, but when I show him how the levels are mismatched I'm fairly sure he will agree with me.

EDIT:

Taking three levels in another ToB class would bring your IL up at the right time, so three swordsage or Warblade levels.

I don't really want to multiclass with this character. I was hoping to run it straight up through the levels. If the DM doesn't agree to delaying new stances though, this is a viable option.

[FMArthur]

I would even do one better and work something out with the group to change the chart to be more smooth and sensible (Come on, 1, 2, 8 and 14? Those level gaps are 1, 6 and 5. What the hell?). ToB is designed to help melee characters have a smooth progression from low to high levels; that stance progression is totally ridiculous.

Of course, that's me being a nice DM and you're probably stuck being a player. So good luck. :smallwink:

[navar100]

Taking three levels in another ToB class would bring your IL up at the right time, so three swordsage or Warblade levels.

You only need two levels, any any class would do. Still, a crusader wouldn't get a 3rd level or 6th level stance.

The stance progression is Tome of Battle's greatest error. Note that Warblades are stuck with two 1st level stances until 10th level, despite the fact the example Warblade NPC has a third level stance.

There are 4 possible solutions:

1) Redo all the stance progressions for all the classes to match the levels of stances.

2) Leave everything alone. Just lump it and take Martial Stance feats.

3) Delay stance progressions by one level. Crusader still needs to take Martial Stance feat for 3rd and 6th level stances. Lower Warblade's stance at 10th level to 9th level. Let Swordsage keep his new stance at 20th level.

4) Leave stance progressions as is. Dump the restriction of can't trade stances. Let all adepts be able to change a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels there after. Crusader still has to spend a feat at 12th level for a 6th level stance if he doesn't want to wait until 14th level, but I'm ok with that stince Crusader gets an extra level of stance options. (Warblade as one 7th level stance, and only if chose to use Tiger Claw where as a Crusader not using Devoted Spirit is dumb). The 14th level given stance can be whatever you want, traded to an 8th level stance next level.

I prefer option 4).

[dark.sun.druid]

4) Leave stance progressions as is. Dump the restriction of can't trade stances. Let all adepts be able to change a stance known at 5th level and every 5 levels there after. Crusader still has to spend a feat at 12th level for a 6th level stance if he doesn't want to wait until 14th level, but I'm ok with that stince Crusader gets an extra level of stance options. (Warblade as one 7th level stance, and only if chose to use Tiger Claw where as a Crusader not using Devoted Spirit is dumb). The 14th level given stance can be whatever you want, traded to an 8th level stance next level.

This option seems overly complicated, even though it does solve the problem nicely. I think that allowing an adept to delay taking a new stance for up to four (number negotiable, I'm not sure on the exact needs of each class when it comes to stances) levels solves the problem nicely. What are your objections to this?

[Runestar]

Or worst comes to worse, burn a feat at lv15 to snag that 8th lv feat. :smallfrown:

[JKTrickster]

Or just fix the progression? It actually isn't a terribly hard thing to do, and wouldn't waste a lot of time. If your DM is a friend/nice person in general it should be easy to discuss.

[navar100]

This option seems overly complicated, even though it does solve the problem nicely. I think that allowing an adept to delay taking a new stance for up to four (number negotiable, I'm not sure on the exact needs of each class when it comes to stances) levels solves the problem nicely. What are your objections to this?

It is more complicated than an adept swapping a maneuver known starting at level 4 and every two levels thereafter how?

No one delays getting stuff. A Sorcerer can't delay choosing a 1st level spell known until he can cast 2nd level spells. A 1st level Rogue cannot delay choosing his 1st level feat until level 3 so he can take Weapon Finesse along with something else.

[DeAnno]

Random Melee Classes 6/Crusader 14 is quite strong by RAW for this reason, since you pick up your stances at better times. Even something as simple as Crusader 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Crusader +13 will handle really well in a lot of conditions. You can also take a Paladin 2 dip for Divine Grace in there somewhere if you want.

[Zaq]

Random Melee Classes 6/Crusader 14 is quite strong by RAW for this reason, since you pick up your stances at better times. Even something as simple as Crusader 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Crusader +13 will handle really well in a lot of conditions. You can also take a Paladin 2 dip for Divine Grace in there somewhere if you want.

Expanding on this, I take the fact that the Crusader is the only one of the three base initiator classes to not have a capstone (no, 5 more HP in your delayed damage pool is not a capstone) to be at least a tacit acknowledgement that they wanted you to dip at least a couple levels in something else.

[Big Fau]

You could always check the Errata. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11890.msg405383#msg405383)