He's a Vampire...and a Werewolf?!

[ZealPaladin]

Alright so (bear with me) I'm new to the forums. I don't know if this question has been answered elsewhere, but I have a problem. A certain player in a new "evil" campaign I'm DMing wants to know if he can get the party werewolf to afflict him with lycanthropy and then later (through homebrew/campaign-related means, don't ask) become a vampire. I've told him the problem with mixing multiple templates and the HD penalties, but he still wants to know if a vampire werewolf is possible.

So, the questions: can you apply the vampire template and the werewolf template to the same character? Will any of the werewolf abilities be lost because the character is a vampire, and (therefore) undead?

Also, assume that the lycanthropy becomes first (because it is a magical disease, according to my understanding of it).

[Drachasor]

It should work, and certainly does in D&D. No matter how many times IRL I try to get this to work, it won't. It doesn't matter if I start with vampires or with werewolves.

That said, the resulting character will be horribly underpowered.

[IthroZada]

That said, the resulting character will be horribly underpowered.

That's an acceptable penalty for the ability to hook up with Kate Beckinsale.

[WinWin]

There is some peculiarities arising from the Alternate form abilities possessed by both the vampire and lycanthrope templates.

Namely, a creature can't use alternate form to assume the form of a creature with a template. How this interacts with templates already possessed by the creature is a matter for debate, but here is the SRD text:



•The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
•The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
•The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
•The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
•The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
•The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
•The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
•Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
•The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
•The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
•Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

[Yuki Akuma]

...But vampires can already turn into wolves?

[WinWin]

If you're referring to the alternate form rules, I really don't know what to say.

I would assume the 'human' form would be treated like a normal vampire. Hybrid form would have the undead tag, unsure about constitution score but HP would remain the same. Most of the vampires special attacks would not be usable in hybrid form. Same for wolf form, it would use standard wolf abilities, but not benefit from any special attacks granted by other templates. Special qualities such as DR and undead traits would carry over to the alternate forms though.

[Mojo_Rat]

without dm fiat it doesn't work. a vampire cannot be subject to lyncanthropy because it is a disease and a curse. any more than they can be subject to mummy rot. as a rule undead also cannot be subject to polymorphy effects ( other than the vamp specific ones)

obviously dm can change that but the la would be rather high.

[Yuki Akuma]

Lycanthropes can be turned into vampires, though, because they're still Humanoids.

[Xtomjames]

It is completely doable as far as I can see. There is nothing in the rules that says a Lycanthrope can't be a vampire as well. What I would suggest is that he instead be a Born lycanthrope instead of a turned or afflicted lycanthrope since becoming a Vampire will cure the affliction.

Give him a trigger that he hasn't experienced yet, the scent of the blood of another lycanthrope for example works or a certain type of injury that triggers his innate lycanthrope. A born lycanthrope doesn't have it as a disease so vampirism will affect them.

A note: Polymorph any object can polymorph undead.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why would becoming a vampire cure the affliction?

Lycanthropy ceases to be a disease, in a mechanical sense, three days after it's contracted. After than, you need to use curse-curing magic.

[Xtomjames]

Because Vampirism makes you immune to disease, and I do believe any curse that is caused by a disease. There are specific rules to vampirism in this case I just need to go find them again. Straight out of the core it should be fine, but depending on what books you're using there are various rules that can confound the process, hence I'd say avoid the afflicted version altogether so it won't come up.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Citation, please. That sounds ridiculous.

[Xtomjames]

After having a little read, the lycanthropic "disease" doesn't go away, even though it can be removed by remove curse remove disease or atonement, those who have true immunity to disease such as undead creatures, deities, etc are not affected by it.

See the Ravenloth book for more details on this.

[ZealPaladin]

Ok guys, thanks for the information! So, as far as I gather from this:

- Having both templates IS possible as long as the werewolf/lycanthrope template is acquired before the vampire template.
- Gotta watch the Alternate Form abilities (as using alternate form makes the character temporarily lose abilities of other forms and then gain abilities of the new form).
- The lycanthrope's "human form" is a vampire, while the "hybrid" and "animal" forms change with respect to the animal the lycanthrope is associated with.
- The resulting character will be underpowered. Really, really underpowered.

[KillianHawkeye]

That's an acceptable penalty for the ability to hook up with Kate Beckinsale.

Deal. :smallamused:

Anyway, I think they were using some house rules regarding werewolf/vampire interaction in that campaign.

[Chilingsworth]

Lycanthropes can be turned into vampires, though, because they're still Humanoids.

Indeed, infact, there was an adventure in Dungeon that used werewolf vampires. "Vampires in Waterdeep" I think it was.

[Greenish]

After having a little read, the lycanthropic "disease" doesn't go away, even though it can be removed by remove curse remove disease or atonement, those who have true immunity to disease such as undead creatures, deities, etc are not affected by it.Then why don't you need Remove Disease to cure lycanthropy?


See the Ravenloth book for more details on this.Which one?

[Mojo_Rat]

Basically the question comes down to this.

Is lycanthropy a Disease? Check
is it a curse Check/

Can Vampires suffe3r from Disease, No? check
Can they suffer from a curse? (actually im not sure)

but the key bit here is Vampires are corpses yes you can turn a werewolf into a vampire at which point they would stop being werewolves. Ultimately its up to the DM but there isnt alot of wiggle room really.

[MeeposFire]

Only acquired is a disease. Natural lycanthropes do not have that problem.

[WildPyre]

I say let him do it, but to balance things out, the BBEG needs a general who is a Gill-Man Flesh Golem.

[Yuki Akuma]

Basically the question comes down to this.

Is lycanthropy a Disease? Check
is it a curse Check/

Can Vampires suffe3r from Disease, No? check
Can they suffer from a curse? (actually im not sure)

but the key bit here is Vampires are corpses yes you can turn a werewolf into a vampire at which point they would stop being werewolves. Ultimately its up to the DM but there isnt alot of wiggle room really.

It stops being a disease after three days,a fter which Remove Disease doesn't work.

Why would becoming a vampire remove the affliction? Where does it say this happens?

[WinWin]

Using the savage progressions template classes may be more optimal than simply applying templates.

werewolf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) and vampire (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)

These 'monster classes' do not need to be completed immediately,the player may only decide to take a few levels of each in order to improve the theme of his character. Just a thought.

[Ranos]

Why would becoming a vampire remove the affliction? Where does it say this happens?
Well, technically, a vampire becomes a corpse for a little while, right ? Unless I'm mistaken, corpses are objects, and as such not valid targets for curses. Wouldn't the curse thus be removed during those few days ?

[Yuki Akuma]

If that was true, being raised from the dead would strip your templates.

Which is very much not the case, by the way.

[Ranos]

Hm, point. Well, it was a bit far fetched anyway. Other than that, can't see a reason the werewolf-vampire hybrid couldn't work.

[Cerlis]

if i read your OP correctly, he wont be underpowered, he will be overpowered. according to Effective character level, horribly.

Unless i'm wrong you made it sound like this campaign has already begun, he isnt creating a character with this status.

Thus say he is lvl 5. He would contract lycanthropy, gain 2 hit dice and get , i think its +4 LA, then he becomes a vampire, getting a +8 la. so is an effective level of....like a lvl 16 character (admittedly with 7 hit dice).

the only problem would be that for the next 11 lvls or so he'd gain experience really slow (if at all, needing to gain experience as a lvl 16ish character), so when his party got to about his lvl he might have gained 2 lvls at max, and not grown very much in that time, though when it started he would be powerful.

-----
though you could HAVE been talking about him starting as this templated character, in which you WOULD accomidate for Effective Character level (unless your other players didnt mind someone starting out with a higher lvl...those racial hit dice are not that impressive after all) and he would have to start out at a much lower lvl.

If i had my bastards and bloodlines book (a 3.0 book, but easily convertable) i'd look up the Half Vampire, has half the LA, alot of its perks,and only has one weakness of your choice (for some reason, choosing to be abhorrent to garlic, or burst in the sun, is a fair choice. i could live without italian)

[Xtomjames]

Then why don't you need Remove Disease to cure lycanthropy?

Which one?

According to Ravenloth remove curse, remove disease, or atonement will get rid of it. The affliction is both a curse and a disease and thus the purview is that a Vampire can't be affected by it, as it is not either explicitly.

The Vampire Lycanthropes in Watersdeep were natural or born lycanthropes not afflicted.

Being raised from the dead with raised dead is not a creating undead creatures, it is healing a dead companion and bringing them back to life. Create Dead, say out of a dead lycanthrope, will strip the lycanthrope and grant the undead traits instead to the human class (noting also that when a Lycanthrope dies they revert back to their normal state).

However, as has already been stated RAW rules are subject to DM change and thus it's up to the OP to decide.

[Yuki Akuma]

After three days (three days), Remove Disease no longer works to cure the affliction. After that, it's a curse.

Natural Lycanthropes, meanwhile, can infect anyone at any time... meaning they're the ones who are carriers of the disease, not the ones they infect.
:smalltongue:

[Greenish]

According to Ravenloth remove curse, remove disease, or atonement will get rid of it.Which Ravenloft book? I should note that unless you're thinking of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, it will be either wrong edition or 3rd party, and thus irrelevant.

Remove Disease can't cure lycanthropy after more than three days since contacting it, as has been pointed out several times.


Being raised from the dead with raised dead is not a creating undead creatures, it is healing a dead companion and bringing them back to life.But in both cases, you were dead before, so being dead can't be grounds for losing a template.


Create Dead, say out of a dead lycanthrope, will strip the lycanthropeCitation needed.

[Leon]

- The resulting character will be underpowered. Really, really underpowered.

Power Level is irrelevant if it makes for a good character that you will enjoy and have good interactions with the game that you will be playing in.

[ExemplarofAvg]

One of the great questions that actually split one of my groups up. In the end we used realworld mechanics to help us decide, a disease or infection of the body can remain living in/on the body for about 24-48 hours, so for the three days rule (not the dating one) it couldn't be that much of a stretch of the imagination for it to last at a maximum of about 72 hours. Thus if you rule Lycanthropy as a disease you can be a werewolf and then a vampire.

In the end it was ruled as acceptable. But there were a few things our group had to remember about the NPC that had both.
1. It's going to be an outdoor dog because well we don't want it in the house.
2. It will be hard to give it a bath, so it will smell, even more reason to leave outside of the house.
3. Don't let it bite anyone.... we're not sure what would happen... but it can't be good. (That's actually a real warning for your campaign, what if it's killed by a negative level draining bite and it fails it's save.)

[Urpriest]

Citation needed.

That one is actually rather obvious. The Create Undead/Create Greater Undead spells create an undead that shares no traits with the base creature, because it is specified to be a specific creature from the monster manual with no provisions for altering it.

Anyway, I was going to post saying that a Vampire Werewolf can't use Alternate Form, but apparently that was only true before the Polymorph Errata made Alternate Form not inherit from Polymorph. So yeah, it's doable, as long as you overcome the peskiness of Alternate Form's "you cannot assume a form with a template" thing, which regrettably if your name is Curmudgeon means that you cannot ever go back to your normal vampire form if you change shape. But luckily most people are not Curmudgeon.

[Drachasor]

Anyway, I was going to post saying that a Vampire Werewolf can't use Alternate Form, but apparently that was only true before the Polymorph Errata made Alternate Form not inherit from Polymorph. So yeah, it's doable, as long as you overcome the peskiness of Alternate Form's "you cannot assume a form with a template" thing, which regrettably if your name is Curmudgeon means that you cannot ever go back to your normal vampire form if you change shape. But luckily most people are not Curmudgeon.

I don't read that as meaning you LOSE templates you already possess, but rather you can't pick a template add it to a creature, and then turn into that template+creature.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't read that as meaning you LOSE templates you already possess, but rather you can't pick a template add it to a creature, and then turn into that template+creature.

Yes. That is, in fact, what the rule is meant to mean.

But don't tell that to Curmudgeon.

[ZealPaladin]

Alright so after showing this thread to my friend, showing him how off-balance his character would be (by applying both templates and looking at him vs. other party members, etc.) and making it clear that the vampire template wouldn't work while the party was only level 7, he has finally decided that it is not worth pursuing.

He might go for a werewolf or weretiger (afflicted), but other than that he has decided that he definitely doesn't want to put up with the multiple weaknesses of the vampire. If he WAS going to do this, he would re-make his character as a natural lycanthrope.

Thanks for all of the info. I understand that a natural lycanthrope can become a vampire, where it's more complicated for an afflicted.

[Drachasor]

Thanks for all of the info. I understand that a natural lycanthrope can become a vampire, where it's more complicated for an afflicted.

After 3 days, I don't really think it is more complicated for an Afflicted. It's no longer a disease then. Worst case, it's the DM's call. (That said, it isn't worth it as people noted).

Anyhow, wereravens are where it is at.

Edit: Ok, weretigers are pretty cool, but they don't come with quotes (well, quote). I think you'd need someone else to handle The Tyger (ideal case).