Medium armour: where is that +6?

[Combat Reflexes]

Hi to you all!

I was wondering if wearing medium armour is underpowered: light armour has the chain shirt, which gives +4 to AC, and heavy armour caps at full plate with a +8. The medium armour breastplate, however, only has a +5.
Why is there such a difference between heavy and medium armour? Wouldn't it be much more logical to make chainmail give a +6 AC, or is there a reason behind this?
Every character capable of wearing light and medium armour (but not heavy) almost always wears a chain shirt, because the cons of a breastplate are bigger than the pluses. For that +1 AC, you get an extra -2 armor check penalty compared to the chain shirt, as well as a lot of extra weight and (last but not least) a reduced movement speed.

Question:
How game-breaking would it be to homebrew plate mail (as chainmail, but +6 to AC) as medium armour?

thanks for your time and stuff,
©®

[Eldariel]

Especially Mithral Breastplate can be worth it unless your Dex is high enough to fully saturate Chain Shirt (even standard Breastplate is pretty alright). That said, you're looking at this wrong. No, it would not hurt to make medium armors other than Breastplate good. Currently only Breastplate is worth using for any non-Druid character after level 1.

[Xtomjames]

It depends on the armor. For one Armor bonus doesn't cap at +8 for heavy, the best heavy armor is a +10. See Mountain Plate (Races of Stone)

Remember that Masterwork bonus is always included in the total AC bonus as well.
So for example, a Mithral Breast Plate as a masterwork would have a +6 to ac, weigh half as much, and only have a -2 to checks. Medium armors are the most commonly made to be masterwork and magical.

If it is a Dwarvencraft Mithral Breast Plate it's considered masterwork, is harder, and has a +2 not +1, with otherwise the same stats as I've given you and it only costs 300 gp more. That's a +8 to ac with a max dex of +4 and only a -2 to checks.

Really if you want better armors don't rely on the core rule book. Also, if you have the money (which you may or may not I don't know) you can just get a plain old masterwork +5 armor on any armor type to gain an extra +5 to ac. There are no rules that says the physical level of perfection of the plain masterwork process can't be raised to the max physical bonus of the armor.

[Greenish]

Remember that Masterwork bonus is always included in the total AC bonus as well.Masterwork doesn't increase AC. It only reduces ACP.


If it is a Dwarvencraft Mithral Breast Plate it's considered masterwork, is harder, and has a +2 not +1Nope.


There are no rules that says the physical level of perfection of the plain masterwork process can't be raised to the max physical bonus of the armor.There are also no rules saying you could.

[Eldariel]

It depends on the armor. For one Armor bonus doesn't cap at +8 for heavy, the best heavy armor is a +10. See Mountain Plate (Races of Stone)

Mechanus Gear is probably the best; +10 also, but doesn't require Exotic Armor Prof (you can further use the feat to increase your AC instead thus ending up with higher composite). Planar Handbook.


Remember that Masterwork bonus is always included in the total AC bonus as well.
So for example, a Mithral Breast Plate as a masterwork would have a +6 to ac, weigh half as much, and only have a -2 to checks. Medium armors are the most commonly made to be masterwork and magical.

Umm, no. Masterwork Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#masterworkArmor) only has reduced Armor Check Penalty. "Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1." It's extremely explicit.

Also, Mithral Breastplate is always considered Masterwork and the stat changes are already included in the Mithral modifiers (-3 ACP). Mithral Breastplate has ACP of -1.


If it is a Dwarvencraft Mithral Breast Plate it's considered masterwork, is harder, and has a +2 not +1, with otherwise the same stats as I've given you and it only costs 300 gp more. That's a +8 to ac with a max dex of +4 and only a -2 to checks.

Same story as above; Dwarvencraft does absolutely nothing for the armor's stats (beyond the fact that it's already Masterwork). In fact, it only makes items harder to destroy. That's it; that's everything it does.


Really if you want better armors don't rely on the core rule book. Also, if you have the money (which you may or may not I don't know) you can just get a plain old masterwork +5 armor on any armor type to gain an extra +5 to ac. There are no rules that says the physical level of perfection of the plain masterwork process can't be raised to the max physical bonus of the armor.

The best composite AC (outside Dex-uncapped ones like Gnomish Twist-Cloth) acquired from a single piece of armor actually comes from Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) which is in DMG. It's got non-magical +5 Armor and +8 Dexterity, beating Mithral Mechanus Gear (+10 / +2) by whoppin' 3 points, but requiring quite a bit of Dex to pull off.

Most commonly used armors are Mithral Breastplate, Mithral Shirt and Mithral Fullplate (and default Chain Shirt, Breastplate and Fullplate before Mithral comes into play gold-wise) simply because they grant the best armor bonuses for their categories with least effort. Mithral Mechanus Gear is better AC-wise than Fullplate but has annoying limitations and the exotic armors are waste of a feat.

[Runestar]

For most part, I believe you are right, so I suppose some people may be willing to trade 10ft movement for that +1AC. It is also useful at 1st lv, where scale mail is much cheaper than chain shirts, but this soon becomes irrelevant.

On another note, mithral fullplate is medium armour...:smallcool:

[KillianHawkeye]

The best composite AC (outside Dex-uncapped ones like Gnomish Twist-Cloth) acquired from a single piece of armor actually comes from Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) which is in DMG. It's got non-magical +5 Armor and +8 Dexterity, beating Mithral Mechanus Gear (+10 / +2) by whoppin' 3 points, but requiring quite a bit of Dex to pull off.

Except Celestial Armor is already a +3 magical chainmail, so it actually grants a +8 armor bonus. It doesn't come in nonmagical varieties.

[Greenish]

Except Celestial Armor is already a +3 magical chainmail, so it actually grants a +8 armor bonus. It doesn't come in nonmagical varieties.He meant that 5 of that AC is non-magical.

The enhancement bonus doesn't matter (for the purposes of what he's discussing) since it caps at +5 for any and all (pre-epic) armour.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, I just wanted to clarify for anybody who might've read that and thought you could pick up nonmagical Celestial Armor. Especially considering the conversation was mostly about masterwork armors only up until then.

The point is that directly comparing Celestial Armor to any nonmagical armor is apples and oranges, because CA is a +3 magic armor.

[Leon]

Every character capable of wearing light and medium armour (but not heavy) almost always wears a chain shirt
©®

Every Character (of mine at least) that can wear Medium armour wears Mithral Fullplate and until that time wears a breastplate. Its maybe more of a Style thing to be wearing the Breastplate over a simple chain shirt

[Alefiend]

Every Character (of mine at least) that can wear Medium armour wears Mithral Fullplate and until that time wears a breastplate. Its maybe more of a Style thing to be wearing the Breastplate over a simple chain shirt

Mithral fullplate still requires proficiency in heavy armor unless you don't mind the penalties associated with it.

[Volthawk]

Mithral fullplate still requires proficiency in heavy armor unless you don't mind the penalties associated with it.

You sure about that? Mithral says "one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations". Pretty sure proficiency would come under "other limitations".

[tyckspoon]

Mithral fullplate still requires proficiency in heavy armor unless you don't mind the penalties associated with it.

No, it doesn't, unless you're playing Pathfinder rules where they explicitly made that change in the rules. FAQ says it doesn't, Sage answers say it doesn't, and there's a direct statement in Magic Item Compendium that it doesn't (set away in small print on the bottom of a table, but it's there. Would have been really nice if they'd said it somewhere more prominent so we could stop having this discussion.)

[Combat Reflexes]

Thanks for responding! :smallsmile:

Actually, I wasn't looking for ways to up my AC. I was just wondering why normal medium armour-wearing warriors (without access to +3 easy travel magic speed mithral whatnot) would choose a breastplate over a chain shirt, ever.
In a typical fight, wearing a breastplate instead of light armour even makes you live shorter - you have a substantial armor check penalty and a limited speed so it's really hard to retreat from a fight. From my POV, that just doesn't weigh up to a +1 armor class.

I guess I'll just homebrew a +6 AC medium armor to give those warblades/barbarians/rangers the feeling that they're not degrading themselves by purchasing a speed-reducing, costly breastplate.

[Leon]

Substance - along with the style thing i mentioned Breastplate is a more solid piece of armour in both look and actual metal while the function is similar that can account for a lot. Chainshirt is of course much better if you are wanting to be convert about wearing armour (like those sneaky Bagginses)


It would prolong life in combat more than shorten it covers more of the wearer than a shirt of mail which is pretty much just the torso and maybe a bit extra

[Eldariel]

Thanks for responding! :smallsmile:

Actually, I wasn't looking for ways to up my AC. I was just wondering why normal medium armour-wearing warriors (without access to +3 easy travel magic speed mithral whatnot) would choose a breastplate over a chain shirt, ever.
In a typical fight, wearing a breastplate instead of light armour even makes you live shorter - you have a substantial armor check penalty and a limited speed so it's really hard to retreat from a fight. From my POV, that just doesn't weigh up to a +1 armor class.

I guess I'll just homebrew a +6 AC medium armor to give those warblades/barbarians/rangers the feeling that they're not degrading themselves by purchasing a speed-reducing, costly breastplate.

It's stronger in straight-up melee but weaker in mobile fights. So...yeah. For what it's worth, Pathfinder increased the Armor-bonus of all armors above Light by +1 (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html); not a bad change by any stretch of imagination.

[Greenish]

In a typical fight, wearing a breastplate instead of light armour even makes you live shorter - you have a substantial armor check penalty and a limited speed so it's really hard to retreat from a fight. From my POV, that just doesn't weigh up to a +1 armor class.It's even more amusing if one was to consider Dastana and Chahar-aina from OA (former also makes an appearance in A&EG). Both add +1 AC that stacks with other armour, but can only be used with light armour. Neither slows you down, and both have ACP of mere +1, removed by making them masterwork.

Of course, ToM has a rather cheap slotless item that stops armour from slowing you down, so that's neither here nor there.

[Rixx]

Pathfinder ups the armor bonus of the breastplate to +6, and full plate up to +9, I believe.

[Combat Reflexes]

Hey, the Pathfinder fix sounds acceptable.
Actually, it's genius. *grabs pencil and PHB*
thanks!

[Xtomjames]

My bad, I'm getting AD&D 2nd edition rules mixed up with 3.5, it's confusing sometimes when I'm working with a group that houserule so many bloody things.

However, as a houserule at least it works wonders to balance out the AC problem.

There are some medium armors though that are +6. I'm just not in the mood to start digging through all the books.

[mohdri]

Just FYI, page 6 of the Magic Item Compendium under the "Mithral Armor" table it explicitly says "Treated as medium armor for the purpose of movement, proficiency, and other limitations" about Mithral full plate (bolded by me for emphasis.) I think this overrules most other sources, including FAQ, for any RAW interpritation.

[Paul H]

Hi

Also, PF allows Fighters to lower ACP and increase max dex with their armour with 'Armour Training'. Eg. 7th lvl Ftrs reduce ACP and increase max dex by 2.

They can also increase their AC with a shield by 'specialising'.

But then again, highest AC is reserved for Synthesist (Summoner Archetype), who 'wear' their Eidolons and gain it's Nat Armour & other benefits.

Thanks
Paul H

[Eldariel]

There are some medium armors though that are +6. I'm just not in the mood to start digging through all the books.

Well, technically there is Interlocking Scale [Races of Stone]; it's a +4 Armor that grants a stacking +2 bonus to your Armor-bonus if you don't move more than 5' on your turn. It's also Exotic though, and pretty terrible at that.

Other than that, it's really just Mithral Splint Mail, Mithral Banded Mail and Darkleaf Banded Mail and Darkleaf Splint Mail [Eberron Campaign Settings] that act as Medium Armors and have +6 Armor bonus.


None of the official Wizards-published 3.5 sources actually contain any, at least far as Dragon Magazine, the general books, Eberron books and Faerun books go.