3.5/PF Gish character perhaps

[herrhauptmann]

So finally getting into a D&D game played in the real world again. Using pathfinder, and I'm starting late for a variety of reasons.

Now, I've really got nothing against pathfinder, but the differences between it and 3.5 keep tripping me up. (I didn't pay attention to all the 3.5/PF threads that cropped up a while back.)

Game consists of a Elven Courtesan Wizard, I refer to her as Twiggy (6ft and 100 pounds). Played by a guy who tends to cheat, by his own admission.:smallmad:
A barbarian, who is looking at bear warrior PrC.
A half elven fighter. Stated he was going for a 'polite' character. So I guess some form of musketeer/swashbuckler guy.
Gnome bard. Very experienced player, in all varieties of D&D.
Dwarf cleric.

We're starting at level 3. Stats are 11,12,15,16,14,9.

I was planning to play Saph's Horizon Tripper build and call it a day. But as far as I know, tripping has been slightly nerfed, as has the horizon tripper itself. Also not sure which weapons still have reach.

So I'm thinking of either a gish type character, or a rogue.
Probably a rogue since we're low in trap detection. In which case, I think I might go and make a 'helpful' rogue, finding ways to grant flanking/AOOs to our frontline warriors.

Are there any feat/item/PrC traps I should beware of in PF? Or things that are 'must have?'

Optimization level of the game seems to be middling at best. But if I go this 'second tier' route, I won't feel so bad about making this character as good as possible at granting flanking/AOOs.

[Bhaakon]

I don't know if it's right for you, but rogue 1/vivisectionist alchemist X will grant you roguish trapfinding, full sneak attack, medium BAB (same as a magus), decent skill progression (alchemist's only 4/lvl, but you'll make some of that back on the higher INT), mutagen, and limited spellcasting (with no arcane spell failure). Tack on another rogue level if you want evasion and a rogue talent.

[Unseenmal]

Don't know if this helps or hurts your decision but all PC's in PF can trapfind if it is a non-magical trap. Only rogues can find magical traps though

[herrhauptmann]

I'd rather avoid the alchemist, no idea if I'd have enough time to sit down and make his various incendiary powders between adventures (also I've only got the core book right now).

What book is the magus in? I found the magus in the srd, but it'd be nice to have the book in front of me during the game.

[twas_Brillig]

I'd rather avoid the alchemist, no idea if I'd have enough time to sit down and make his various incendiary powders between adventures (also I've only got the core book right now).
You don't have to worry about that, actually! Extracts only have a shelf life of 24 hours, and bombs are thrown in the round you make them, and the catalyst vials which you use for them (or whatever you want to fluff them as) are made "from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch". (Source) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist#TOC-Bomb-Su-) Depending on how your group handles spell component pouches, there may be some problems, but I think most people just sort of assume you handle it off screen?



What book is the magus in? I found the magus in the srd, but it'd be nice to have the book in front of me during the game.
Based on the list of arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana) showing arcana from Ultimate Magic and two third party books, I'm going to assume the class is from there.

(Fully expecting ninjas.)
EDIT: Huh.

[Paul H]

Hi

Magus is in Ultimate Magic. But try out Synthesist from Ult Magic. (Base Summoner APG, Archetype is in UM).

Plenty of tripping weapons out there, including scythes now!

Trip is a D20 roll vs a DC (CMB vs CMD) Ie no opposed rolls.

CMB: BAB + Str + Size mod + appropriate bonuses
CMD: BAB + Str + Dex + Size mod + approriate bonuses (Includng Deflection, Dodge, etc) + 10

Example

4th lvl Human Town guard (Str 16, Halberd, Improved Trip feat) vs Dwarf Fighter 2 (Str 16, Dex 12, Dwarf Racial bonus vs trip)

Human CMB: 4 (BAB)+2(Improved Trip) Total +6
Dwarf CMD: 2 (BAB) +1(Dex)+4(Racial) Total +17

So guard needs 11+ on D20 to trip Dwarf.

Hope that helped
Thanks
Paul H
PS Check out Ninja from Ult Combat

[herrhauptmann]

Well DM has nixed anything from Ultimate Magic, even though it's in the SRD.:smallfrown: Just the core book and the Advanced Players Guide.

[Psyren]

I was planning to play Saph's Horizon Tripper build and call it a day. But as far as I know, tripping has been slightly nerfed, as has the horizon tripper itself. Also not sure which weapons still have reach.

Indeed they don't. Looking here, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons) there are no weapons in PF core or APG that have both Reach and Trip - your best bet is to get one with Trip and then find a way to boost your size for greater coverage. (This tactic does have the benefit of letting you attack adjacent squares, however.)

With UM nixed, I think you should gish with a PrC - either Eldritch Knight or Dragon Disciple.

[Greenish]

Indeed they don't. Looking here, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons) there are no weapons in PF core or APG that have both Reach and TripI was prepared to believe they'd removed guisarme (it's PF, after all), but no, it's there.

[Psyren]

I was prepared to believe they'd removed guisarme (it's PF, after all), but no, it's there.

Ah, silly me, that's core all right. Well you've got one option.

[Grynning]

Also there is the horsechopper (found in the same link) which is also reach-trip, just does more damage.

[Psyren]

Also there is the horsechopper (found in the same link) which is also reach-trip, just does more damage.

That one isn't core or APG, so it's probably banned for the OP's game.

[Paul H]

Hi

So - Core & APG only, hmm.

Savage Skald 6 (Bard Archetype, APG Pg 84), then Dragon Disciple works. Remember, there's no alignment restrictions on Bards anymore.

Arcane Duelist 6 (another Archetype from APG, Pg 80) would do well with with Dragon Disciple. Grants a few bonus feats, including Arcane Strike.

Both have good 6th lvl bonuses, before going Dragon Disciple.

My preferred version is Arcane Duellist 1/Hospitaler4/Dragon Disciple xxx


Str 10 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 11 Wis 9 Cha 18

Human Arcane Duelist NG Follower of Sarenrae

1) Arcane Duelist: Wpn Finesse, Dodge [Arcane Strike, Rallying Cry]
2) Hospitaler:
3) Hospitaler: Dervish Dance (Qadira book, needs free off-hand, prof in Scimitar, 2 ranks Perform Dance)
4) Hospitaler: (Increase Dex)
5) Hospitaler: Extra Performance [Channel Positive Energy]*
6) Dragon Disciple (Gold Dragon):[Blood of Dragons, Nat Armour +1]
7) DD: Mobility [Str +2, Bloodline Feat, Dragon Bite, +1CL]
8) DD: [Breath Wpn, +1 CL]
9) DD: Vital Strike [Str +2, increase Nat Armour to +2, +1 CL]
10) DD: [Blindsense, Bloodline Feat]

Bloodline:

You gain your Bloodline abilities. Treat DD levels as Draconic Sorceror levels.
1) Claws (3+Cha Mod rnds/day. D4 + Str mod damage)
3) Resist Fire 5, +1 Nat Armour, Bonus Spell - Mage Armour
5) Claws considered Magic (vs DR). Bonus Spell - Resist Energy

Bloodline Feats:

Choice of
Blind Fight, Gt Fort, Improved Init, pwr Attack, Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Fly), Skill Focus (Know Arcana), Toughness.

Note:* Channel Positive Energy replaces Paladin version. Doesn't use Lay on Hands. Instead used 3+Cha mod times/day. Treat as Cleric, but Paladin lvl-3

Hope that helped
Paul H
PS If Qadira book isn't available, take Exotic Wpn (Elven Curved Blade) instead. It's a 2H weapon, can be used with Wpn Finesse, and crits on 18-20 (x2)

[herrhauptmann]

Decided to make a normal gish type character.
WOuld've done human fighter/wizard, but chose ranger1/wizard2 instead.
Unfortunately, I chose halfling for my race. If I'd selected human or half elf, I'd have much better stats:
After racial mods: Str 13, Dex 16, Int 16, Con 12, Wis 11, Cha 11.
And as a transmuter, I have a +1 that can be re-allocated wherever I please each time I prepare spells.

Like I said, as a human: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 9. Before that free +2 adjustment, and the floating +1. So I could go about with a Str 16, and Int 18.

For feats, I've got Arcane Strike (swift action, make my weapons act as +1 weapons. It improves at higher caster levels).
Was going to take weapon finesse, but I feel there's better choices out there for me. Any suggestions?
Still limited to the Core book and the Advanced Players Guide.

edit:
I don't actually own the Advanced Players Guide, so I have to go through the srd searching each entry to find out what book it's in.
What/where is the hospitaler? Is it an ACF for a regular class?

And is it my imagination, or is the feat "Combat casting" now suddenly useful for gish characters? Since there's no longer a concentration skill.

[Psyren]

While "Concentration" in PF is indeed harder (it is now a caster level check: 1d20+CL+KAM), Combat Casting still isn't a very good feat. It only applies to casting defensively (much harder in PF) and being grappled, where you're unlikely to be doing much casting anyway. As a gish, both your CL and your KAM will likely be lower than that of a pure caster (particularly if your DM hasn't allowed in Practiced Spellcaster from 3.5 to help you out.)

Your best bet in PF is not to cast in melee at all if you can help it, or simply buff up with miss chances etc. and take the AoO.

[Paul H]

Hi

Hospitaler APG Pg 116. (Paladin Archetype).

So, what's your Favoured Enemy? Human might be a good choice, depending on your campaign.

Thanks
Paul H

[herrhauptmann]

FE: Aberrations.
I have a randomly determined fear of rust monsters, so it seemed like a good thematic choice. Though having played yesterday, it seems like Outsiders: Evil would've been a better choice.

[herrhauptmann]

Example

4th lvl Human Town guard (Str 16, Halberd, Improved Trip feat) vs Dwarf Fighter 2 (Str 16, Dex 12, Dwarf Racial bonus vs trip)

Human CMB: 4 (BAB)+2(Improved Trip) Total +6
Dwarf CMD: 2 (BAB) +1(Dex)+4(Racial) Total +17

So guard needs 11+ on D20 to trip Dwarf.

Forgot about the differences in the tripping mechanics with the CMB/CMD...


Regarding feats: I've got Arcane Strike, and one free feat. I'm thinking of taking Weapon Finesse (and wielding an elven curve blade, with a kukri backup weapon).
Any suggestions on better feats than Weapon Finesse?
I'm thinking of going for Eldritch Knight, and maybe abjurant champion (depending if DM lets me research an abjuration Mage Armor). Obviously I'd need combat casting if I want to take AC.