PF Necromancer (not the typical)

[TurtleKing]

Alright who thought when you see this thread that this is about making an undead army? Don't be shy now raise your hands. All who thought that with raised hands? Good you may now exit stage left. So no shambling masses of rotting flesh are going to tread this thread. All who post suggestions for an Undead Army type Necromancer will be ignored.

I am planning on exploring the other options that Necromancy has to offer than the Undead angle. Plus it will be refreshing to see a non Undead Army Necromancy thread. I also plan to get help with a Necromancer that doesn't use undead that is primarily PF. The question is what class, feats, items, and spells should I get/use?

So who would like to join me on this adventure?

[Coidzor]

Speaking to the spirits of the dead & debuffing. I can't remember what PF brings to the table or knocks off of the table and stomps on, but you should have some ample debuffagey blastiness if you're planning to actually use necromancy.

Skeletons don't really shamble per se though. :smallwink: They more tap dance (http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/index.php/Tapdancing_skeleton).

[TurtleKing]

To me Necromancy is about Death, Undeath, Darkness/Shadows, and Pestilence/Corruption. My personal favorites out of those are the Darkness and Pestilence aspects.

As in terms of my Pathfinder character the Witch seems to pull it off best for example the hex Blight. Though this is subject to change based on the classes spell list. Oh the books allowed are Core, APG, Inner Sea Guide, UM, and Ulimate Combat.

[TurtleKing]

Anymore ideas? Come on is Undead the only things that Necromancy makes you think of?

[NamelessNPC]

If you are willing to use 3rd party material, in the pfsrd there's a wonderful clas called the death mage

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/s/death-mage

It's like a druid, but channeling the powers of death instead of life. 3/4 BAB, full casting (but pretty lousy spells, specially at lower levels) and you can have an undeadish animal companion if you choose to.

[0nimaru]

There are plenty of ways you could take Necromancer without the undead horde. I'm not familiar with PF, so my advice would be primarily 3.5, so ignore it if it isn't relevant.

I focused on simple touch and lifestealing spells at low levels, and worked into focusing on the thematic "chill of death" angle later with every spell that had a cold/shadow/death angle to it. I PrCed into Escalation Mage (Faiths of Eberron) primarily for the flavor. It lets you get some metamagic, with the possibility of bleeding out hp if you fail your checks.

RP-wise it was pretty creepy and never disrupted the party because I wasn't walking around with a shambling army of evil. In the Power aspect, I'd say I was fairly useful, but this varies by party. Your real terror-beam would be putting Arcane Thesis on Enervation (the one highly applauded Necro non-army spell) and getting some free metamagic on it from Escalations.

[Coidzor]

Anymore ideas? Come on is Undead the only things that Necromancy makes you think of?

Have you taken a look at the revised necromancer handbook? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook)
The Necromancer Wizard
Wizard is a class that is 6 levels long (unless you intend to take the Planar ubstitution level at 10th, in which case the class is 10 whole levels long). Necromancy as a wizard is a surprisingly hard road. The first thing to realize is that you do not have an army of the dead! If you wanted an army of the dead, you’d be a Cleric or a Dread Necromancer. Wizards have bonecrushingly powerful necromancy at their disposal, but almost none of it has anything to do with having a shambling army of animated corpses following you around. Necromancy from the wizard perspective is usually about the Soul, and is a deeply powerful school centered around Fear, Possession, and more recently – Cold.

Also, Treantmonk's (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God) Guide to Necromancy (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869142/Treantmonks_guide_to_Necromancy:_Gods_Tools) And the Pathfinderization of his fame-winning treatise. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test)


Necromancy is best known for debuffs, usually delivered through touch or rays, and either have no save or target Fort. After going through the spells, this generalization isn't bad when it comes to accuracy. Necromancy is not limited to these things, but most spells do seem to fall in those categories.

I've always figured if you decide to make a debuffer who focuses on Rays you should go with a necromancer, pick up split ray, and go to town. Certainly that strategy isn't a bad one, though I was able to find a few gems that worked in different ways than the standard Ray debuff. Certainly the non-necromancer who keeps the necromancy school has some options.

[TurtleKing]

That first link of the last post was undead necromancy. The other posts are great if playing a Necromancying Wizard. However hoe do some of the other classes stack up? So how does the Antipaladin, Cleric, Druid (yes them too), Oracle, Sorcerer by bloodlines, and Witch? So how well do those other classes debuff in comparison to a Wizard. The debuffs I am looking for I want to have a necromantic feel to them unlike enchantment or illusion though not opposed to them.

Edit: Just saw the Magus's Hexcrafter archtype. So just how viable is the Magus at being Necromantic? I would also like for to include the necromantic spells of the classes listed above except the Sorcerer.

[subject42]

The first thing you should consider as a Pathfinder (wizard) necromancer is the Necromancer's Athame. It lets you spontaneously cast necromancy spells by sacrificing other prepared necromancy spells. This is useful if you really can't decide between enervation and boneshatter for the day.

While not hyperoptimized, the Life (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/necromancy/life) subschool has some interesting qualities for the purposes light-duty healing and undead-nuking.



As far as clerics go, they really seem to favor the zombies from what I've seen in-game so far.

[TurtleKing]

Necromancer's Athame? Where is that located?

[Gavinfoxx]

I would say that the Cleric and Dread Necromancer (and maybe Archivist) are about Undead Horde, and the Wizard is about Debuffs.

[subject42]

Necromancer's Athame? Where is that located?

It's originally from the Advanced Player's guide, but there's a listing of its qualities on the PF SRD somewhere.

[TurtleKing]

Thanks. I mostly interested PF side since that is what I playing mostly now.

Ok here the line up of our contestants of who can pull of necromancy without being undead focused. They are:

Antipaladin-the entire class just oozes a necromantic feel that seems to only dabble in undead while the rest is all about debuffs.

Cleric-might have some non undead necromancy through spells and domains.

Druid-has the Blight and Reincarnated archtypes to choose from as well as the spells.

Magus-the Hexcrafter archtype with some abilities as well as the spells.

Oracle-has the mysteries and revelations tied to Dark Tapestry, and its spells that is shared with the Cleric.

Sorcerer-three bloodlines consisting of Accursed, Pestilence, and Shadow adding abilities and spells. The spells added are a bonus on what the Sorcerer already gets.

Witch-has the Patron spells of Death and Shadow plus the hexes and spells from spell list.

Wizard-has the Necromancy and sub school Life as well as the spells.

So who do you think pulls off non-undead necromancy better? Please include some sample spells for each.

Edit: Well went back and looked at the Death Mage again. While it looks quite flavorful and can pull off what I want to do I can't use it. It is from one of the approved books. So only classes named above.

[Coidzor]

However hoe do some of the other classes stack up? So how does the Antipaladin, Cleric, Druid (yes them too), Oracle, Sorcerer by bloodlines, and Witch?

Antipaladin - atrocious if you want any real casting. Note the second half of the word Necromancer.
Cleric - bad except for undead access at early levels
Druid - Why are you even asking? Surveying their spell list should tell you all you need to know
Oracle - meh, don't know it
Sorcerer - they're all going to be the same except for the ones that actually get any kind of necromantic abilities so why would you want every bloodline listed?
Witch - has some fear stuff, as has been mentioned. Is mostly specialized for fear-stacking anyway from what I recall.



Edit: Just saw the Magus's Hexcrafter archtype. So just how viable is the Magus at being Necromantic? I would also like for to include the necromantic spells of the classes listed above except the Sorcerer.

Do you not have access to the spell list or something? That'll tell you everything you need to know beyond the class features.

So the real question is, what's important to you here? What means "Necromantic" to you? Because you haven't really given a clear indication to us what you want, especially with how you've described Antipaladins.

[subject42]

Druid - Why are you even asking? Surveying their spell list should tell you all you need to know

Actually, Blight Druids that take the Death domain can rock out some pretty serious debuffs, to the point where at 13th level it gets a free casting of contagion every time something strikes it in melee with a natural attack, touch attack, or unarmed strike.

[Vemynal]

from a power point of view Necromancy also took a *big* hit in Pathfinder as they made it so a lot of the "save or die" spells now just do straight damage dependent on your level.

Presumably (I don't play PF much so I dont know) the save or suck spells should still be accessible.

If not going undead horde the most common "necromantic" flavor is "power over the soul", not just in relation to save or suck/save or die spells. But also in regards to fear(emotions), healing and buffing.

Healing- Unless you go cleric you won't have access
Fear- someone mentioned the witch; I wouldnt know. But wizard can do this as well.
Emotions(other then fear)- while not in the necromancy subschool. You could dominate people or use suggestion and flavor it as controlling their soul instead of their mind.
Buffing- Don't forget you're party members. While in the Transmutation field you could argue for a "soul theme" by strengthening the souls of your team mate.
Level Draining- you're stealing "life force" whats not to love?

[subject42]

Healing- Unless you go cleric you won't have access

Witches get access to some healing, through the healing hex, cure spells, and Infernal Healing (which is an awesome spell).

[TurtleKing]

@Coidzor: Thanks for pointing out that I am not good at Grammar. What I was trying to say is some sample necromancy spells as examples.

As for with the Druid, Sorcerer, and Witch I named off more than one subset as in archtype or class feature is to also compare them as well.

As for what I am looking for I already named them but will include them here again. Darkness/Shadow and Pestilience. By that I am looking for a good bit of debuffing spells that can disable/maim/kill over time in the Pestilience side. As for the Darkness/Shadow side I don't have as many examples to work with so still searching there.

Since decay is part of the focus a Druid would sound like an obvious fit due to circle of life deal.

Pathfinder's necromancy can actually pull off some healing with its spells. One example is also the Life sub-school of Necromancy healing 1 point per spell level of the spell. This increases as you level upto 3 points per spell level. The same is also true for dealing damage to undead.

I am not really interested in the save or die spells anyway.

The reason for including the Antipaladin was mostly for completeness rather than option unless someone could really sell me on it.

[Vemynal]

Witches get access to some healing, through the healing hex, cure spells, and Infernal Healing (which is an awesome spell).

If this is true then this is what I'd suggest

hmm if my friends ever force me to play pathfinder, I may have to look into the witch class

[TurtleKing]

A Vemynal: Suggest what?

As for the rest do I need to present their abilities, spells, and feats for you to give me an opinion. Besides the only thing I am using is the pfsrd.

[deuxhero]

So no shambling masses of rotting flesh are going to tread this thread.

You just need Skeletons and the spell that prevents dead flesh from decaying for your zombies then.

:)

[Tetrasodium]

Alright who thought when you see this thread that this is about making an undead army? Don't be shy now raise your hands. All who thought that with raised hands? Good you may now exit stage left. So no shambling masses of rotting flesh are going to tread this thread. All who post suggestions for an Undead Army type Necromancer will be ignored.

I am planning on exploring the other options that Necromancy has to offer than the Undead angle. Plus it will be refreshing to see a non Undead Army Necromancy thread. I also plan to get help with a Necromancer that doesn't use undead that is primarily PF. The question is what class, feats, items, and spells should I get/use?

So who would like to join me on this adventure?

OIne of the PF cleric domains makes you healed by negative energy & harmed by positive(I think on positive energy) at level 8 or so. Also ultimate magc has a very good alternate witch archtype that uses a creepy little doll called a poppet with graveyard dirt for stuffing & has a necromancy themed spell list... I think it's in ultimate magic

[Redrat2k6]

Depends on what you want to be able to do. If your just about what looks cool or what is "necromancy". Then it doesn't matter what class or feats you take.

Clerics - Tank, Melee, Caster, Heal, Sneak (not all at the same time)

Wizard Necromancer - Debuff, Save or Suck, backups are battlefield control, and blasts.

Sorcerer - Same but less utility and backups.

Oracle - Same as Cleric, but with sorcerer casting and some cool flufflike options.

Witch - Just like Necromancer Wizard, except no undead so.... perfect.

[TurtleKing]

Well let me compare the the differences between some of the classes.

Antipaladin-just no it gives me kinda creepy slimy feel just by looking at the class. Now while that would sound like a winner just No.

Cleric-unless I took the Darkness or one of its sub domains it just seems to lacking.

Druid-only viable option being the Blight Druid Archtype getting the Darkness domain but not sure if should go with it or one of its sub-domains Loss or Night. The rest of the abilities are vermin and disease related so the Pestilience fits in quite nicely there. Still unsure about the spells.

Magus-the Hexcrafter archtype is just an attempt by using some Witch's hexes plus a little extra. Would just be better to Witch instead.

Oracle-while the it seems to viable vy the Dark Tapestry Mysteries and Relevation it actually tied to space more than necromantic.

Sorcerer-the Bloodlines Shadow edges out Pestilience just by a little.

Witch-Since the Shadow Patron spells and Shadow Bloodlines are similar will ignored when comparing between the Sorcerer and Witch. The other and considerable selling point for the Witch is the hexes. The Gravewalker Archtype and Plague patron won't work since it deals with the undead.

Wizard-As with the Sorcerer and Witch the Sorcerer and Wizard's spell list will be ignored since pulling from the same list. The Life sub school and strangely enough Darkness sub school of Illusion are the options but are frankly a little lacking.

So to me the contenders are now a Blight Druid, Shadow bloodline Sorcerer, Shadow patron Witch, and maybe a Pestilience bloodline Sorcerer. So who seems to pull this off better mechanically. Here I am looking for just how powerful the abilities are relation to each other.

[TurtleKing]

OK folks I'll post the mechanical differences between our 3 main contenders.

THe first part is going to be a comparison on the domainish spells that are added. Each one has a Shadow like theme so some overlap will happen on the spells known. To counter that will be examining when they become available. Will also break down between the Darkness domain and its sun domains of Loss and Night.


Darkness Domain Spells: 1st—obscuring mist, 2nd—blindness/deafness (only to cause blindness), 3rd—deeper darkness, 4th—shadow conjuration, 5th—summon monster V (summons 1d3 shadows), 6th—shadow walk, 7th—power word blind, 8th—greater shadow evocation, 9th—shades.

Loss Replacement Domain Spells: 5th—enervation, 6th—modify memory, 9th—energy drain.

Night Replacement Domain Spells: 1st—sleep, 6th—nightmare.

Witch Shadow: 2nd—silent image, 4th—darkness, 6th—deeper darkness, 8th—shadow conjuration, 10th—shadow evocation, 12th—shadow walk, 14th—shadow conjuration (greater), 16th—shadow evocation (greater), 18th—shades.

Sorcerer Shadow Bonus Spells: ray of enfeeblement (3rd), darkvision (5th), deeper darkness (7th), shadow conjuration (9th), shadow evocation (11th), shadow walk (13th), power word blind (15th), greater shadow evocation (17th), shades (19th).


Shame I can't seem to get that in table format for you to see. Just looking at that the Blight Druid gets their spells the earliest while the Shadow bloodline Sorcerer brings up the rear by two levels. From my personal opinion the Night sub domain is a bit lackluster in the spells. Loss however is a strong contender with being able Enervation, Modify Memory (Mindrape?), and Energy Drain. The only drawback there is switching out Shades for Energy Drain but oh well. So other than what I have said what do you think of the bonus spells lists?

As for the rest of the abilities here they are.

Blight Druid
Nature Bond instead of an animal companion can get a familar or the Darkness, Death, or Destruction domain. Guess which one I am going for.

Vermin Empathy works with vermins as a normal driuds with animals and takes a penalty unless the animal is undead or has a disease special attack. This is a trade out of Wild Empathy.

Miasma at 5th level the Blight Druid now has an aura type ability that sickens most or nauseates animals, fey, and plants. This is a trade out of Trackless Step and Resist Nature's Lure.

Blightblooded at 9th level is now immune to sickened, nauseated, and disease. Replaces Venom Immunity.

Plaguebearer at 13th level whenever is struck by a non reach melee attack the attacker has to make a save or contract a disease. This replaces A Thousand faces.

Witch
Hexes: Cackle, Evil Eye, and Misfortune are 3 of the 5 hexes I am thinking of grabbing. Wondering what the other two hexes should be from this list?

Patron Spells see above.

Witch's Familar any suggestions?

Major Hex out of the four hexes so far only Ice Tomb is one of them. Any ideas on what the other three should be?

Grand Hex so far Dire Prophecy is one of the two hexes currently chosen. Any ideas out of the rest for the other one?

Umbral Sorcerer
Get Stealth as a class skill which great if don't want to be seen while working my mojo.

Bonus Spells: see above.

Bonus feats: here is a small list of feats that are do require you have to meet the prerequisites. You can take them at 7th, 13th, and 19th level.

Ok before I get into the Bloodline Arcana and 1st level ability the ones from the Bloodline are lame to meh at best. So I have taken the Umbral archtype which replaces out those for some better abilities.

Bloodline Arcana is whenever cast a spell in dim or no light +1 caster level.

Cloak of Shadows at level one grant a bonus to Stealth equal to +1 per 2 lvls for 1 per 2 lvls rounds usable 3+CHA mod per day.

Nighteye at 3rd level is either gain darkvision or increase your darkvision by a certain amount. This doubles at 9th level.

Shadow Well at 9th level you can if near a shadow (not your own) basically use HiPS. When does the Rogue get this kind of ability? Later? Wait I am no done yet you also get the ability to a Dimension Door type effect as long in dim or no light upto 3 per day.

Enveloping Darkness at level 15 you can create a Deeper Darkness effect...whoo you could cast that spell at least five levels earlier right? However everyone but you is also entangled...wait entangled? Um ok a bit better, and only way out is a Freedom of Movement type effect...ok. Usable once per day.

Shadow Master woot capstone ability is can see just fine in any darkness. Thats not all for all of those Shadow Conjurations and Evocations are 20% more real. Wait so does that mean you have 100% believers/ 100% Non believers for Shades or is not included? Wait even more all of the conjurations this way also recieve the Augment Summoning feat benefits.

So there you are with the different abilities and bonus spells. Tell me what you think?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would say that the Cleric and Dread Necromancer (and maybe Archivist) are about Undead Horde, and the Wizard is about Debuffs.

Dread Necro gets most of the Wizard's Necromancer-esque Debuffs, as well as a Fear Aura, and negative energy class abilities.

Sure, they're definitely the best for creating a rendition of Thriller, but that's not all they're good for.

For example, with a bit of optimization, you can get their aura up to Panic level, ignoring immunities, in a 30' radius. I'm working on getting it up to Cowering, but I can't think of how to do it passively.

[TurtleKing]

This was mostly intended to be Pathfinder. I have done a debuff Necromancer in terms of a Fleshgrafter. So I do know about several of the 3.5 ways of debuffing in that way.

Though from what I am seeing some of it is using "fear" line of mechanics. Just how viable are those in comparison to oh say nauseated or exhausted line of debuffs?

[Tetrasodium]

Witch's Familar any suggestions?


The Witch familiar is a bit special compared to anyone else's since it's both your spellbook and familiar with its death having all the drawbacks of losing both. There are also some pretty cool hexes that affect the next creature to look at it... but are terrifying to use due to the potential of losing your familiar. You obviously don't want anything you'd be tempted to get into dangerous situations with like maybe the fox if you might use it for combat... nut two others stand out for reasons specific to the witch.
-Raven: It can sit on your shoulder and fly away if there is danger... but being a raven rather than an insect or something, you are less likely to have well meaning people smash it for you. It also has the benefit of being able to speak, useful for the usual reasons... but one of the abilities a witch can eventually get (bonded soul? book isn't handy here at work) allows you to inhabit the body of your familiar if you die until you can find a suitable body, being able to speak then is likely to be quite useful
-Hedgehog Cant speak or fly away, it can sit on your shoulder and crawl up/down your robe between pocket/pack/shoulder by itself if need be, being curled up and pointy in a pocket could potentially protect it if someone searched you. It's also something that looks cute and could be loved on like a cherished pet or something for RP reasons, but is small enough to do things like hide in cracks in walls and such that might exist.

As to thw witch's abilities, the hexes are pretty darned powerful and fill a few holes in the traditional caster classes... if your prepared/selected spells are useless thast day... almost any other class would have been more useful to the group, the witch can fall back on hexes. Hexes are also mostly per day per target sort of things allowing you to use them without worrying about burning limited resources (spell slots) too quickly and such

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Though from what I am seeing some of it is using "fear" line of mechanics. Just how viable are those in comparison to oh say nauseated or exhausted line of debuffs?

Well, on the one hand, 'fear' greater than Shaken (i.e. Frightened, Panicked, and Cowering) is pretty much a Save or Lose condition.

On the other hand, lots of things are immune to Fear. I don't know if Pathfinder incorporates 'fear is inherently a mind-affecting condition' or not, but if so, it really limits the utility of Fear.

In 3.5, there's a class called Dread Witch which bypasses immunities, which makes Fear a *FAR* more devastating SoL condition, since it now works on pretty much everything. However, I don't know about Pathfinder's opinions on immunities and bypassing them.

[Tetrasodium]

Well, on the one hand, 'fear' greater than Shaken (i.e. Frightened, Panicked, and Cowering) is pretty much a Save or Lose condition.

On the other hand, lots of things are immune to Fear. I don't know if Pathfinder incorporates 'fear is inherently a mind-affecting condition' or not, but if so, it really limits the utility of Fear.

In 3.5, there's a class called Dread Witch which bypasses immunities, which makes Fear a *FAR* more devastating SoL condition, since it now works on pretty much everything. However, I don't know about Pathfinder's opinions on immunities and bypassing them.

I'm not too sure if he was talking about spells or something or the witch hexes. I haven't hasd reason to go looking in pathfinder yet to determine if it has a similar "all fear effects are mind affecting" clause like 3.5 yet. The witch hex mechanics are special in some ways though(sleep without the HD cap of the spell type stuff), end result winds up being they are usable in situations they would not normally be usable. All in all it's a great class with some awesome & highly flexible fluff

[TurtleKing]

As for whether fear is a mind affecting effect I didn't see it explicitly say that.

The Blight Druid is best with the nauseated line of debuffs considering deals with diseases. So by this the main save targeted will be Fortitude. The main form of debuffs will be from spells until 5th level with Miasma, but once they have been effected thats it for 24 hours on that person. So debuffs are in fact limited unless I turn into some type of creature with a poison or disease effect. Since debuffs are limited have to be creative and frugal with them.

The Umbral Sorcerer is also in the same boat as the Blight Druid for its debuffs come from spells. The only possible debuff doesn't come till 15th level that can be used once per day. So the Umbral Sorcerer is the least capable in debuffing, but might last longer due less visibility.

The Witch is probably good with the fear effects or other debuffs based with Will saves. Most hexes can only be used once per day per person. So you could in fact use it 100 times but each time was a different person. The Evil Eye hex however is not so, and they even explain it can be spammed on the same person applying a different effect or resetting the duration of an effect the target is already afflicted with. So the Witch can put out more than the others possibly even them combined. The Raven also makes a great choice thematically due to some equating a Raven as a sign of Ill Omen. S for the Beast of Ill Omen effect is the Bane as the spell or bane as the enhancement?

So can the Blight Druid and Umbral Sorcerer still compete with the Witch or does it completely out strip them in the debuffing department?

Edit: As for the question about the status effects it was more in general as to which one packs a bigger bang for the buck.

[Tetrasodium]

As for whether fear is a mind affecting effect I didn't see it explicitly say that.

So can the Blight Druid and Umbral Sorcerer still compete with the Witch or does it completely out strip them in the debuffing department?

Your probably going to have a tough time finding anything debuffwise to compete with the witch's mostly per day per target style versatility from its hexes and ability to pick-n-choose hexes while leveling up, plus those grand hexes are pretty freaking nice
As to the fear effects footnote bit, in 3.5 it was kind of hidden in a few places. I believe later pages in the DMG and at least one of the monster manuals had an "All fear effects are mind affecting" blurb in a section where it's talking about the varuious types of effects. It's the kind of thing you find when you have immunity to mind affecting effects but not fear ;). I've not had reason to go hunting for similar in pathfinder and don't have access to my 3.5 books here.

[TurtleKing]

After some debating have decided to be a regular Witch. The Gravewalker archtype does not work since it is the Undead Army type Necromancer. In fact none of the archtypes help.

So far my hexes are Evil Eye at 1st level, Cackle at 2nd, and Misfortune at 4th. From there am interested in Cauldron, Flight, Fortune, Healing, Prehensile Hair, Poison Steep, Slumber, Tongues, and Ward. I never said I wouldn't help the party by buffing them. The Slumber and Poison Steep make great secondary choices debuffing hexes. So out of the hexes other than the named for my 1st, 2nd, and 4th what would you recommend for the 6th and 8th hexes? My 10th lvl hex is Agony due to Cackle. The 12th is going to be Ice Tomb for possibly locking down targets. As for the 14th and 16th looking at Witch's Brew, Cook People, Hidden Home, Hag's Eye, and Retribution as my options. The Grand Hex for 18th is Dire Prophecy, and for 20th level considering any of the rest. So for the 6th, 8th, 14th, 16th, and 20th levels what hex should I grab?

Thanks to my patron being Shadow I have that part as well.

So anything else such as which feats or spells are great to get. Just remember after a certain point I can duplicate any conjuration or evocation with upto 60% real.

[Tetrasodium]

After some debating have decided to be a regular Witch. The Gravewalker archtype does not work since it is the Undead Army type Necromancer. In fact none of the archtypes help.

So far my hexes are Evil Eye at 1st level, Cackle at 2nd, and Misfortune at 4th. From there am interested in Cauldron, Flight, Fortune, Healing, Prehensile Hair, Poison Steep, Slumber, Tongues, and Ward. I never said I wouldn't help the party by buffing them. The Slumber and Poison Steep make great secondary choices debuffing hexes. So out of the hexes other than the named for my 1st, 2nd, and 4th what would you recommend for the 6th and 8th hexes? My 10th lvl hex is Agony due to Cackle. The 12th is going to be Ice Tomb for possibly locking down targets. As for the 14th and 16th looking at Witch's Brew, Cook People, Hidden Home, Hag's Eye, and Retribution as my options. The Grand Hex for 18th is Dire Prophecy, and for 20th level considering any of the rest. So for the 6th, 8th, 14th, 16th, and 20th levels what hex should I grab?

Thanks to my patron being Shadow I have that part as well.

So anything else such as which feats or spells are great to get. Just remember after a certain point I can duplicate any conjuration or evocation with upto 60% real.


I don't have access to APG/UM right now, but I think that the Grand hex listing in the chart just means your hexes choices can now be grand hexes from now on, as to suggestions... that needs the books too :P

[TurtleKing]

@Tetrasodium: Actually you don't need the books for the mechanics part. Granted the fluff is practically non existent but that is what you get when using an SRD. The d20pfsrd.com is main source. The only book I have is the Ultimate Combat in pdf format thanks to a friend. So all I have to do is go their for the information. Another benefit is they have errata and even some FAQ answers pertaining to the subject at the subject. So instead of going to the FAQ section it may have it right there.

So if any of you don't have a book it may be on the pfsrd even 3rd party books.

[Tetrasodium]

Yep major & grand hex are both starting at level & every two levels after the witch can choose one of the following when they could select a new hex.

As to actual hexes:
-Charm works on humanoids & animals lasting number of rounds equal to int mod (on int based class). Makes their attitude one step more favorable to you & could potentially be nice in some groups/campaign styles

-Disguise... meh, there are hats for that if you really need it
- Blight: not likely to be too useful in most campaigns
- coven: seems more of the sort of thing an NPC would have
- Evil eye: will save or -2 to your choice of lots of options... nice
- Flight: Probably only really useful in some campaigns.
- Fortune: Awesome ability, let a target reroll one of any of the rolls they make this round till 8th when it turns into this round & the next. Great general purpose buff for when you have to be sure your friend makes a roll.
-Healing: also a nice ability depending on group makeup since it's a pr day per target thing.
-Misfortune: inverse of fortune but applies to all rolls, stick it on the most dangerous thing in range and make it roll 2x taking the worst for 1-3 rounds.
-Sleep: Sleep without a HD limit, great ability.
- Ward, bonus to ac/saves for a target till you give it to something else, tossup between this and fortune possibly leaning this at lower levels & fortune at higher I think
-Beast of Ill omen: this is terrible. -1 on attack rolls and saves against fear effecs to the next thing that looks at your familiar & fail the save, your familiar is also your spellbook... don't ever give your dm a reason to attack it without some seriously uber effect.... -1 is not it.
-Child scent: Gain scent ability, but only for the purposes of tracking children/cubs/hatchlings/etc... Likely meh in most campaigns, how many times have you ever needed to track a child/ Animals tend to be even more aggressive when their young are threatened as well.
-Nails: Useful if your GM constantly takes away everyone's weapons... I guess... Buy a dagger, it's probably better by far.
-feral speech: speak with animals?... don't think I've ever seen that used in a game.
-Poison steep: looks a very situational and NPC-like ability
-Prehensile hair: This looks to have serious potential.. 10 ft range and strength equal to your int?.... niiiiiice, who cares if it's only 1d3 when used as a weapon.
-scar: this ability literally has no effect unless your GM gives it one, talk to your GM if it interests you.
- Unnerve beasts: See that mounted dude making your life unpleasant?... his horse is now terrified of him! Useful yes, but situational and probably depends on the campaign.
-Water lung: Allows you to sleep underwater.. probably only really useful in some situations

The major and grand hexes are choices of some seriously awesome things that probably get more awesome depending on campaign/group makeup/style (retribution, waxen image, forced resurrection,lifegiver, etc, etc, etc...)These are really going to be things that are great, but even more great for certain groups/games. They are practically bordering on hypothetical forum-wizard style powerful but with a phfinderized twist similar to disjunction allowing them to be usable relatively often without overdoing it like the forum wizard mentioned

[Arbane]

After some debating have decided to be a regular Witch. The Gravewalker archtype does not work since it is the Undead Army type Necromancer. In fact none of the archtypes help.

So far my hexes are Evil Eye at 1st level, Cackle at 2nd, and Misfortune at 4th. From there am interested in Cauldron, Flight, Fortune, Healing, Prehensile Hair, Poison Steep, Slumber, Tongues, and Ward.

I'd suggest grabbing Fortune - you'e already got Cackle, which make Fortune and Misfortune stupidly good. Don't forget the Extra Hex feat at level 3! (NOT...ENOUGH...HEXES!) :D




- Blight: not likely to be too useful in most campaigns


I'm not even sure it works properly as written - it does 1 Con damage a day, but wouldn't that heal back each night?



- coven: seems more of the sort of thing an NPC would have


Or take Leadership and make your GM's life miserable. "Your spells are cast at level WHAT?!" :smallbiggrin:



- Evil eye: will save or -2 to your choice of lots of options... nice


If I read it right it's -2 to something _period_ - all the save does is cuts down the duration, and Cackle can extend it anyway. (The bad news is, it's a mind-affecting power, so a lot of enemies are immune.)



- Flight: Probably only really useful in some campaigns.


I'm confused. Unless the entire campaign takes place in level, 10x10-foot corridors, there's circumstances where being able to fly ISN'T useful?



- Fortune: Awesome ability, let a target reroll one of any of the rolls they make this round till 8th when it turns into this round & the next. Great general purpose buff for when you have to be sure your friend makes a roll.


Don't forget you can extend this with Cackle. If someone else in the party is a crit-fisher, this will make them very happy. (Also, unless I've misread this, you can use it on yourself.)



-Beast of Ill omen: this is terrible. -1 on attack rolls and saves against fear effecs to the next thing that looks at your familiar & fail the save, your familiar is also your spellbook... don't ever give your dm a reason to attack it without some seriously uber effect.... -1 is not it.


I have to agree here - Evil Eye outclasses it in every way I can see except duration, except possibly if you send the familiar off ahead to scout, which is "tactically inadvisable".



-Child scent: Gain scent ability, but only for the purposes of tracking children/cubs/hatchlings/etc... Likely meh in most campaigns, how many times have you ever needed to track a child/ Animals tend to be even more aggressive when their young are threatened as well.


Yeah, I think this is an NPC-Only ability, like Blight.



-Poison steep: looks a very situational and NPC-like ability


As someone pointed out, you can combine it with the Beguiling Gift spell to ruin someone's day. Or just toss a bag of poisoned apples down a big monster's gullet. But yeah, situational.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm confused. Unless the entire campaign takes place in level, 10x10-foot corridors, there's circumstances where being able to fly ISN'T useful?

Mainly because it starts out as featherfall and by the time it progresses past levitate (?)to outright flight finding ways to get flight aren't that tough compared to the benefit of your other hex options

[TurtleKing]

Thanks for pointing out Extra Hex feat. Will probably take Flight, Prehensile Hair, and Fortune as my other hexes. For the Major hexes Agony, Retribution, Ice Tomb, and Major Healing. I'll wait till I get upto 15th level to see what other Grand Hex other than Dire Prophecy to possibly take.

Any other feats that are good other than Extra Hex to take? I know Toughness is an option. Strange I am actually thinking of taking Toughness, but that is just how much better it is over its 3.5 version.

Edit: Oh curious by the time I get Fly either by the hex or a spell once I use Feather Fall do I glide down or just slowly fall right in place?

[Arbane]

I'll wait till I get upto 15th level to see what other Grand Hex other than Dire Prophecy to possibly take.


I didn't see any reason that Forced Reincarnation couldn't be used on _yourself_, so that's one way for a witch to do an end-run around mortality. Plus, it's just a HILARIOUS save-or-lose effect.



Any other feats that are good other than Extra Hex to take?


At level 10(?), grab Split Hex for your favorite attack hex, and curse TWO people a round.

This guide (https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1avH5AFYaZ838OC_W7BY_Bnt1TH9KGCc2ygTOb0CiYu 0&pli=1) has a few other suggestions - Scribe Scroll, Improved Familiar, Accursed Hex and Improved Initiative all sound good to me. (And like I said, Leadership for making the GM cry.)



Edit: Oh curious by the time I get Fly either by the hex or a spell once I use Feather Fall do I glide down or just slowly fall right in place?

I'm pretty sure it keeps working just like the Feather Fall spell, so you slow-fall in place, unless the GM lets you come up with something clever to alter your trajectory.

[Tetrasodium]

Thanks for pointing out Extra Hex feat. Will probably take Flight, Prehensile Hair, and Fortune as my other hexes. For the Major hexes Agony, Retribution, Ice Tomb, and Major Healing. I'll wait till I get upto 15th level to see what other Grand Hex other than Dire Prophecy to possibly take.

Any other feats that are good other than Extra Hex to take? I know Toughness is an option. Strange I am actually thinking of taking Toughness, but that is just how much better it is over its 3.5 version.

Edit: Oh curious by the time I get Fly either by the hex or a spell once I use Feather Fall do I glide down or just slowly fall right in place?

it's an at will, so likely immediate action like feather fall

Flight (Su): The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to f ly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/featherFall.html) at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can f ly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments
It's not a bad power or a trap, just not as cool as it potentially looks at first glance. Technically feather fall is just fall slowly, if you can find a way to adjust your fall direction that amuses your GM height let you use it to aim yourself too :)

PF Toughness is't a bad feat because it gives that +3 to start making it into enough to matter early on before you have enough levels to potentially make it noticeable. It's a shame the +2 save feats didn't get a tweak of their own into +2 with the additional option of using(stat+otherstat)/2 instead of stat to calculate your bonus or something.

as to other feats & such, I know that APG&UM have some nice new feats, I haven't gone looking through them with the intent of building a caster though & can't really offer suggestions

[Tetrasodium]

I didn't see any reason that Forced Reincarnation couldn't be used on _yourself_, so that's one way for a witch to do an end-run around mortality. Plus, it's just a HILARIOUS save-or-lose effect.


More than that. you can use it on someone, take all their stuff that makes them scary, and still question them later without angering the GM because you just trashed his NPC with three pages of story/plot notes with one "attack" :).. it's hypothetical forum-wizard powerful without being gamebreaking or completely GM angering to allow it to be frequently usable like most of the grand hexes :)

[TurtleKing]

Sounds great. Might as well to wait till 3rd or 6th level to get Accursed Hex when I start using those kinds of hexes more often.

As for races debating between Human, Elf, or Half Elf. Halfing is not viable because the Halfling Jinx trait is from a book not allowed. So all the feats related to that are unavailable.

[Arbane]

If the GM will let you take it, the monster Feat Ability Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/ability-focus) would be useful to toss on your favorite Save-Or-Suck Hex.

[TurtleKing]

Is there any other way to increase the save dc of the hexes?

[TurtleKing]

Is there anything else ya'll might have to add before I put up the build?

[Arbane]

Is there any other way to increase the save dc of the hexes?

Ability Focus, Coven and cranking up your Intelligence are about it, I think.

[Tetrasodium]

Is there anything else ya'll might have to add before I put up the build?

go for it, you will probably get better feedback on the build itself :)