Do elves need a bedroll?

[LordOfNarf]

Elves meditate insted ofsleeping, does that mean that they don't need a bedroll to sleep in?

[Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick]

It'd be kind of hard to meditate without some way to get comfy, I guess.
So, there's no reason for them not to have one, unless they're trying to get back to nature.

[senior_stabby]

no not really but it would be comfy during the cold

[Hario]

You never NEED a bedroll, but its always nice to have for comfort and especially as a makeshift cloak. If you are asking this question you either are playing a hellishly weak wizard or are extremely strapped for cash... ;D

[dragonseth]

Actually, it can make an effective decoy if you fill it with leaves. There are other uses too in an issue of Dragon.

[Emperor Tippy]

As a word of advice, buy every mundame item that you can carry without exceeding a light load. Everythign comes in handy at some point. As for teh bedroll no, it is not needed.

[RoboticSheeple]

Like it's been said No one ever needs one, but if you can carry it, do it. People often forget the mudane items that are frequently (in things I DM at anyrate) as useful as magic items.

Off the top of my head a Bedroll does the following:
Stretcher,
decoy,
it's burnable,
keeps hostages heads covered,
throw over caltrops,
simple pit trap cover,
cozt place to bring the tavern wench back to.

[LordOfNarf]

I generally just sleep in my bedrolls, but i always have one so that i don't just say that my charachters sleep in the grass or whatever

[dragonseth]

That reminds me of an argument I use against the 'McDonald's made me fat' people.

[WildBill]

maybe an elven bedroll is just a yoga mat? possibly including one of the little round pillows for zen meditation?

[Dark Knight Renee]

... Which begs the question, do elves meditate sitting, or layng down? Also, do they 'sleep' with their eyes closed, or open and staring into space creepily?

[The_Pyre]

Races of the Wild doesn't seem to answer that question at all, although they still seem to have use for "beds". And that they more or less treat it as if it was sleeping, i.e. they aren't dressed in everyday wear when they do it.

[Leon]

i'd say the way they mediate would depend upon the elf

[Darkie]

No one actually needs a bedroll, mechanics wise. Winter blankets and tents, on the other hand, does have an effect depending on the weather... but lack of a bedroll doesn't have any inherant penalties.

[Tack122]

I once used my bedroll to smoke a bunch of kobolds out of their cave while my allies slaughtered them as they ran out...

[Hario]

I once used my bedroll to smoke a bunch of kobolds out of their cave while my allies slaughtered them as they ran out...
They're kobolds... its not like they can actually hurt you even if they snuck into your camp and tried to kill you in you're sleep... ::)

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Flavour-wise, I always had elves meditating sat down...

[Leperflesh]

As a DM, I'd houserule:

If you have to sleep out, and it's cold and/or damp and/or rocky, and you don't use anything approximating a bedroll, you'll suffer the same consequences as sleeping in heavy armor. In other words, it can be done, but you shouldn't do it.

If you have a campfire that's kept tended all night, and you stay close, or, if you cuddle up really close with one or two companions, you can ignore mild (but not serious) cold conditions.

See, check out my totally extrapolating a mechanics consequence from something that was apparently pure flavor, how about that.

If an elf needs to lie down in a bedroll and close his eyes to 'meditate', then there's hardly any reason to make a distinction between meditation and sleep. I think the fact that such a big deal is made of it, implies or suggests that the elf does something substantially non-sleeplike while meditating. I'd leave the specifics up to the elf's player, or possibly if I was working out description for various different elf-tribes or subpopulations or cultures, I'd specify differing meditation practices for each one as a way of adding distinction and uniqueness.

Such as:

The Willowdamp Swamp elves have a tradition of meditating by laying out a small, round reed mat in front of them while they sit cross-legged on the ground, or if the ground is damp, sometimes in the crook of a tree. The mat is woven from several different colors, and each mat contains a complex pattern. The elf studies the mat, contemplating the patterns, until he drops into a trance-like state... his eylids droop, but his eyes remain open, and his breathing and pulse rate slow. Some elves gently rock forward and back while in trance, while others seem to remain completely still. If an elf lacks an appropriate mat, he can substitute almost any appropriately-sized item which has some degree of intricate patterning to it, such as the weave of an item of clothing, the pattern of hairs on a scrap of hide, or even the grain in a hunk of wood. Most Willowdamp elves consider these items inferior to their mats, however, complaining of less-satisfactory trance.

... just to make up an example off-the-cuff, borrowing the basic idea of the Mandala.

-Lep

[SlyJohnny]

What's all this "Noone needs a bedroll" stuff? What do you sleep on, the grass? What if it's cold out?

A bedroll weighs 5 lbs, so it's not just a sheet and a pillow. More like a small mattress/sleeping bag.

Having said that, I don't usually bring tents, unless the weather is crappy. I figure a bedroll and blanket by the campfire is enough for nice weather.

[prufock]

scrubbed

On-topic, bedrolls have more uses than just a comfortable resting place. Google "101 uses for a (wet) blanket" (an oldie but a goodie) if you need inspiration.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

If you have to sleep out, and it's cold and/or damp and/or rocky, and you don't use anything approximating a bedroll, you'll suffer the same consequences as sleeping in heavy armor. In other words, it can be done, but you shouldn't do it.
I like that ruling.


If an elf needs to lie down in a bedroll and close his eyes to 'meditate', then there's hardly any reason to make a distinction between meditation and sleep.
I think part of it is fluff to explain the elven immunity to sleep effects. Of course half-elves sleep normally while retaining the immunity. Maybe half-elf sleep is somewhere in between normal sleep and elf trance?

That being said, I know that Mialee is depicted "trancing"* in the lotus position in the Scourge of Worlds DVD. I think you could really go either way.


What's all this "Noone needs a bedroll" stuff?
There's no rule that makes a bedroll a necessity.

Just like there is no rule that results in anyone other than arcane spellcasters and psionic character ever requiring sleep at all.


What do you sleep on, the grass?
Sure, that makes a good enough bed. Assuming relatively soft ground under the grass.


What if it's cold out?
Only a problem if it's below 40 degrees Farenheit (about 4 degrees Centigrade). See Cold Dangers (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wildernessAndEnvironment.html#cold-dangers).


Having said that, I don't usually bring tents, unless the weather is crappy. I figure a bedroll and blanket by the campfire is enough for nice weather.
Given how mercurial the weather can be in many places... why take the risk?

Then again, some places do have consistent weather. Pays to do your research.

[hr]* Referring to it as "trance" really bugs me since I first learned about this elven distinction from the AD&D Complete Book of Elves* wherin they said that elves did not call it "trance" or "trancing." I don't remember the term they used, but they were quite clear that there was a distinction.

* I just referenced 2nd edition. I guess I'm in "Old Guy" mode. ;)

[Tharivol]

I don't give my elven characters one. Yes, there are other uses for it, but who would carry something that they're not going to use because there might be other uses for it ???

I generally assume that elves meditate sitting up and don't mind being fully clothed, but I'm not that committed to it and will gladly change it for my character if the DM says otherwise or for the rest of the elves if a players says otherwise for his/her character.

[Emperor Tippy]

If you have a bag of holding, Heward's Handy Haversack, or belt of many pouches the weight isn't anythign at all and it can always be useful if you are inventive enough.

[Ing]

Elves should always meditate with eyes open

its creepy it adds flavor, and think of the inherient hillarity of a (N)PC talking and baring their soul and life story to the elf for HOURS, assuming they are just a very good listener, not at all realizing they're in lala land.

CLARIFICATION: (the elf was allready meditating when said person started talking in this example, they're not a jackass who just nods off when the conversation gets boring)

[TheThan]

But an elf would nod off during a boring conversation, that’s just part of their general obnoxiously arrogant attitude. Now keep in mind that if an elf was talking to another elf, it wouldn’t matter how boring the conversation was, neither would fall asleep. (Disregarding the fact elves don’t sleep)

Seriously I like the idea of elves carrying a Zen style meditation pillow, oh and keep in mind there is a difference between sleeping and resting. You can rest without sleep. In that case something to rest on would be nice to have, so I can see elves buying a bed roll.

[Xavier]

Of course its an important question, at 5lb a bed roll is a significant object in size and weight, even for a strength 18 character its 5% of their penalty free light load.

And any DM allowing none elf characters to sleep with just a winter blanket and nothing else should try sleeping on the cold damp ground for eight hours with no ill effect.

But does an elf need a bed roll? In my book probably or at least something insulating/padded - the word in the PHB is not 'trance' its 'DEEP trance', so unless all elves are yoga masters who can hold a lotus position for 4 hours and still have circuation in their feet....

[but my inner dwarf knows that deep trance is a poncey word for sleeping]

[Emperor Tippy]

Technicly elves can trance in heavy armor with no problems, I doubt that they have problems in sitting in the lotus position for 4 hours.

[MrSeth]

The way I always played it was that the Elven trance was identical to sleep except for structural differences (it follows a completely different cycle than "normal" sleep) and the fact that Elves cannot dream. Ever.

That being said, now that I've read this thread... I'm gonna play it completely different. ;D The lotus-position-eyes-open idea is just too perfect.

[Bobthedwarf]

If you were to go into a trance for 4 hours would you prefer to be on the cold hard ground or on a nice realativly soft bedroll.

[l)arkzer0]

I think I would prefer there be a little magic to them (they are elves after all). I float a foot of the ground in lotus position :). I am just wondering if this applies to Elans as well... They are 'human', but it says that they go into 'deep trance' for 4 hours instead of sleeping.

[JadedDM]

In my home-brewed world, I just rule that elves sleep like any other race. Problem solved!

[MrNexx]

The only place in the SRD that mentions an elf not sleeping is a single spell... their racial description does not.

[Ryuuk]

^ That's because the srd removes anything having to do with flavor. You'll find it in the PHB under the elves Physical Description section in races.

[purple gelatinous cube o' Doom]

As a DM, I personally don't even bother with any mundane items except for things that might be considered important such as torches.

[codexgigas]

I'm pretty sure that the whole elves going into trance and not sleeping thing is a Tolkien rip-off (in fact, I'm positive). Consider the following quotations from The Lord of the Rings (page numbers are from the Harper Collins one volume paperback edition, c 1984):

"As before, Legolas was first afoot, if indeed he had ever slept."-- Book 3, Chapter 2: The Riders of Rohan, 418

"Aragorn and Gimli slept fitfully, and whenever they awoke they saw Legolas standing beside them, or walking to and fro, singing softly to himself in his own tongue, and as he sang the white stars opened in the hard black vault above."-- Book 3, Chapter 2: The Riders of Rohan, 419

"Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their firends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro."--Book 6, Chapter 6: Many Partings, 963

The second quotation really seems to be where the D&D idea of trance comes from. With Legolas, the question of whether he sleeps is up in the air. He's certainly never explicitly mentioned as doing it, but he does rest with the rest of the fellowship their last night in Lorien, and he's curiously absent during some of the things that happen in the camp at night (i.e. Frodo and Sam seeing Gollum while camping on the Anduin bank, and Pippin stealing the Palantir from Gandalf). There's probably something about this in the Silmarillion, but I haven't read it recently. So for Tolkien, Grey Elves may sleep (since Celeborn is depicted as "trancing," and Legolas is ambiguous), the Noldor are shown as "trancing," as are a Maiar and a Half-Elf (although Tolkien's conception of the Half-Elven is completely different than D&D; they're much rarer, and are given the choice of which kindred to be like, so Elrond is for all practical intents and purposes an elf). Still, I could be reading too much into this about elves and be misinterpretting something that Tolkien viewed as something only the wise did. However, this does seem to be where the concept of "trance" originated.

Personally, since I think the connection's so clear, I'd rule that trance functioned like it it seems to in LoTR. Elves can move, and even speak, and interact with others. I'd rule that an elf arcane caster had to spend eight hours resting regardless, since that's the rule for regaining spells, but any other elf could conceivably spend the entire night on watch. It's odd, but not game-breaking, since there aren't even any rules for sleeping, and it's such a minor point.

[TheElfLord]

Due to my not having a copy of the Two Towers with me at the moment I can't quote the passage, but there is a line in the first two chapters when they are running across the plains that mentions Legolas being able to restore himself while runing by dreaming elvish dreams. To me this seems to be the origin of the trace concept.

[Collin152]

Do elves need bedrolls? How far are you from the tavern, and how expensive is the inn? Also, for legal purposes, are Half-elves discriminated gainst in this particular reigon?

[mikeejimbo]

I'm going to have to go with the floating a foot off the ground in lotus position idea. Then they don't need one.

[Maclav]

Only a problem if it's below 40 degrees Farenheit (about 4 degrees Centigrade). *See Cold Dangers (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/wildernessAndEnvironment.html#cold-dangers).



I know that is RAW, but anyone who has ever slept outside will tell you that even in a warm environment you will suffer effects from not having reasonable insulation (ground pad and appropriate sleeping bag). In 40 degree weather, you would have to be insane or desperate to try to sleep without something... and don't expect to get much more than horrible sleep and spend most of the night shivering.

[Mewtarthio]

What's all this "Noone needs a bedroll" stuff? What do you sleep on, the grass? What if it's cold out?

Technically, the only thing you need is food, and a good Survival check or a couple of aberrant feats can render that moot. Granted, you will be extremely naked, calloused, and absolutely feral from madness, but it can be done.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Any time a player tries to pull stuff like that in my campaigns, I invent brand new mechanics to prevent any further entirely unrealistic behaviour. Sure, there's magic and monsters and a plethora of deities and such, but if the mechanic is supposed to be based on a realistic issue, then by god they are going to treat it like it's a realistic issue.

[Matthew]

I have to agree with the above Posters. The Elf Trance thing is clearly descended from an interpretation of The Lord of the Rings and is probably included as part of the Elf Sleep immunity thing. On the other hand, Tolkien wasn't always committed to one way of thinking.

In my homebrewed and houseruled games Dwarf Women don't have beards and Elves sleep.

[Blinkbear]

I know that is RAW, but anyone who has ever slept outside will tell you that even in a warm environment you will suffer effects from not having reasonable insulation (ground pad and appropriate sleeping bag). In 40 degree weather, you would have to be insane or desperate to try to sleep without something... and don't expect to get much more than horrible sleep and spend most of the night shivering.

And another catgirl *sniff*

I would say: Decide how elves meditate in your campaign and then decide if they need a bedroll for meditation. I understand that there are several other opportunities to use one, but I guess the question was about needing it for meditation.

[Bouldering Jove]

What do you get a Wookiee for Christmas, when he already owns a comb?

If you're going with trance as meditation, a small mat would still be a comfortable idea, and less bulky than a bedroll.

[Narmoth]

Elves should always meditate with eyes open

its creepy it adds flavor, and think of the inherient hillarity of a (N)PC talking and baring their soul and life story to the elf for HOURS, assuming they are just a very good listener, not at all realizing they're in lala land. *

CLARIFICATION: (the elf was allready meditating when said person started talking in this example, they're not a jackass who just nods off when the conversation gets boring)

My drow Paladin/warlock would just take a meditating trance while someone talked for long, and when the other person stopped ask: so, do you want to sum this up?

Anyway, I would say that if you are in doubt, you should have a bedroll.:smallsmile:

[YPU]

Of course another question, can an elf snore while in trance?

[YPU]

I have to agree with the above Posters. The Elf Trance thing is clearly descended from an interpretation of The Lord of the Rings and is probably included as part of the Elf Sleep immunity thing. On the other hand, Tolkien wasn't always committed to one way of thinking.

In my homebrewed and houseruled games Dwarf Women don't have beards and Elves sleep.
Wait, legolas staring into the night at rohan might in fact be him meditating, and aragorn waling in asking “what is it? ” woke him up. I like the idea.

[Leon]

I'm going to have to go with the floating a foot off the ground in lotus position idea. Then they don't need one.

Like Dream Dwarves do :)

[Yuki Akuma]

Elans are far more likely to levitate than elves are, considering elans are naturally psionic and elves aren't really naturally magical.

[mikeejimbo]

Well if I ran a campaign, they would float, just for a New Age feel. :p

[Scalenex]

If you have a bag of holding, Heward's Handy Haversack, or belt of many pouches the weight isn't anythign at all and it can always be useful if you are inventive enough.

You will never hear me complain about getting a bag of holding or similar item. Extra-dimensional storage space rocks. That being said. Pack animals and carts make issues of carrying capacity less important. I know you can't take all your pack animals into a dungeon, but that's not an extreme limitation (at least in my games where most dungeons can be completed before the adventuring party needs to sleep). Pack animals are especially popular in the gaming I'm running now where small PC races and low Strength scores are fairly popular.

Realism gets in the way of giant sprawling dungeons, sadly. Given the astronomical cost of building even simple traps and extrapolating the costs of building a dungeon from this, any would be dungeon designer would probably go for a lean small dungeon as opposed to a large one with lots of space.

[Jack Mann]

Actually, if you go with donkeys*, they can be brought into the dungeon, so long as you bring feed with you. Whether or not this is a good idea, however...

*Mules too, but they're less likely to fit.

[Matthew]

Mules are a necessary for any prolonged adventure, as long as the terrain doesn't prevent their passage. Ponies, Donkeys and Riding Horses are reliable alternatives. I have also heard tell of Adventurers using a number of other animals (fantastical and no fantastical) for similar purposes.

[Desaril]

I think bedrolls aren't necessary for any character according to the rules. They just increase versimilitude for the roleplaying experience so your character can be comfortable while sleeping. Similarly, an elf may not sleep in the bedroll, but they can use it for comfort while lounging around the campfire.

But the sleep questions brings up several other issues:

1) The PHB says elves do not sleep, but can they sleep if they want to?

2) We know that a trance is as effective as 8 hours sleep, but what if your elf doesn't trance? If the elf avoids vigorous activity can he remain awake indefinitely? A non-elf would eventually fall asleep, but elves don't sleep!

3) Similarly, since elves don't need to recharge their bodies through sleep, shouldn't they be more resistant to fatigue or exhaustion?

4) Lastly, since elves are immune to sleep effects, shouldn't they be more resistant to being rendered forcibly unconscious (knocked out).

[Matthew]

I think the answers to most of those questions are just to treat trancing as sleeping in all respects, except where indicated otherwise. I don't think Elves can sleep if they choose to. Being knocked unconscious is different enough from going to sleep.

[Dervag]

Well if I ran a campaign, they would float, just for a New Age feel. :pNot to mention the fact that it creates opportunities for the exciting sport of elf-tipping!

[Desaril]

I think the answers to most of those questions are just to treat trancing as sleeping in all respects, except where indicated otherwise. I don't think Elves can sleep if they choose to. Being knocked unconscious is different enough from going to sleep.

What does "treat trancing like sleeping mean"? In the simplest terms, you are right, but what happens to an elf that does not trance? He can't pass out and the rules for fatigue deal with physical exertion. I guess I'm thinking a step beyond the rules. If you don't need sleep, then your body must not need to recover through rest. That's an amazing concept in biology and physics.

As to being knocked out- My layman's understanding is that most knockouts are the body's response to trauma. Your body is damaged and it shuts down the non-essential parts to focus on just staying alive. I think that part works, but would a poison based sleep effect work? Wouldn't it have to be specially designed to affect the elven physiology, since they don't require sleep the same way other races do?

BTW, I've played a lot of sci-fi games, so I get deeeeep!

[TheOOB]

Elves can still be knocked unconsious, they just can't sleep.

For all intents and purposes I treat trace just like sleep that only takes four hours. In order to get into a good trace you need a fair amount of peace and comfort, about the same amount that a human needs for a good nights sleep. In my world elves don't have to trace laying down, but they usually do as it's the most comfortable position. Hence they still find uses for beds and bed rolls. Even if they in a sitting meditative stance, which primarly only gray elves in my setting do(any elf can, gray elves are just more picky about it) they still require a comfortable surface to sit on and a blanket if it's cold or rainy, so they still find a use for bedrolls.

I also rule that if the enviroment is rocky, cold, wet, or otherwise unplesant you awaken fatigued unless you have proper protection, whether you sleep or trance, usually this protection comes in the form of a bedroll, but sometimes a tent is needed as well. On a clear warm night in a grassy field I assume the PCs can make due with whats around if they wish.

[MrNexx]

I think that part works, but would a poison based sleep effect work? Wouldn't it have to be specially designed to affect the elven physiology, since they don't require sleep the same way other races do?


If it's non-magical, then it would affect them. They're only immune to magical sleep effects.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Why not a hammock?

Hammocks are smaller and lighter, and can be strung between trees. Elves love trees.
:biggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

This thread is actually making me want to play an elf so I can roleplay the camp stuff...

What is wrong with me?

[Desaril]

If it's non-magical, then it would affect them. They're only immune to magical sleep effects.

I understand that's the rule, but my question is why is that the rule. If they don't need sleep and are immune to magical sleep, what could make them sleep? It makes no sense to say 1) Elves do not physiologically need sleep, 2) they are immune to magical sleep, but 3) they are subject to sleep poisons. It would make better sense to say they are immune to sleep poisons, but vulnerable to magical sleep (because magic alters science). But by saying 1 & 2 above, elves should be immune to all sleep effects.

It's like saying someone is naturally immune to fire/heat, but suffers from sunstroke or would get sweaty in the summer. In order to resist external flames, the being must not process heat energy the way normal humans do. This would not necessarily prevent a magical spell from affecting them, but even then, the being might be more resistant.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I'm sorry people, but I'm laying claim to this cheesy joke before anyone else can.

Elven Chuck Norris doesn't sleep. He waits.

[Matthew]

I understand that's the rule, but my question is why is that the rule. If they don't need sleep and are immune to magical sleep, what could make them sleep? It makes no sense to say 1) Elves do not physiologically need sleep, 2) they are immune to magical sleep, but 3) they are subject to sleep poisons. It would make better sense to say they are immune to sleep poisons, but vulnerable to magical sleep (because magic alters science). But by saying 1 & 2 above, elves should be immune to all sleep effects.

Yes, that's true, but it also makes no sense that all Elves are proficient with Bows, Long Swords and Rapiers. The rules define the game reality, you can House Rule away the stupidist parts (I know I like to), but otherwise just have to follow the inconsistant logic presented. Elves don't sleep, but are susceptible to a number of sleep related effects.

Obviously this runs contrary to the idea that the rules support the game reality, but that's the nature of simply obeying the RAW.

[Desaril]

Yes, that's true, but it also makes no sense that all Elves are proficient with Bows, Long Swords and Rapiers. The rules define the game reality, you can House Rule away the stupidist parts (I know I like to), but otherwise just have to follow the inconsistant logic presented. Elves don't sleep, but are susceptible to a number of sleep related effects.

Obviously this runs contrary to the idea that the rules support the game reality, but that's the nature of simply obeying the RAW.

It is simple to say: Just follow the RAW. If we do that we would have less problems, but we are trying to discuss improving the game experience. Part of that is improving versimilitude. As consumers we have a duty to tell the producers what we want from the product and this forum is part of the way we generate this feedback.

The whole notion of the initial question- Do elves need a bedroll?- revolves around improving versimilitude, not an explication of the RAW. Nothing in the RAW says any character needs a bedroll.

I see a distinct difference between the weapon proficiency rules and the sleep immunity rules. The racial descriptions state that elven society teaches everyone to use those weapons. If you assume that your elf grew up in elven society she would have learned those proficiencies. Therefore, it is realistic to have elves who are proficient in those weapons. However it is inconsistent to have an elf grow up in dwarven society and still have the proficiencies and your DM should not allow the proficiency. Perhaps they would pick up the stonecunning bonuses. The game designers were savvy enough to realize this and even mentioned it. See PHB p 110.

However, it is internally inconsistent that elves don't have to sleep and are immune to magical sleep, but can be affected by sleep effects. The conclusion does not flow logically from the premises, so it is approriate to ask why. Since the RAW don't provide much guidance, we should suggest appropriate changes. Some people opt to get rid of the elven advantage; my post recommends expanding it.

My personal solution (with no basis in any rules, just common sense) is that elves do need sleep, just much less than the other races. Therefore, elves will eventually get exhausted and pass out. This provides a resistance bonus to biologically based sleep effects.

[Matthew]

Well, as far as I can tell, we were discussing how Elves work by the RAW.

However, as I said, Elves would sleep like everyone else if I had my way (and I do in my Home Brewed and House Ruled (A)D&D Campaign). RAW D&D often does not make sense.

[SpiderBrigade]

Here's a theory: elves are immune to sleep magic because such magic is basically saying "you are getting verrry sleeeeepy!" And the elf says "no, I'm not! What? I don't ever sleep! I don't even know what sleepy feels like." The spell Sleep is mind-affecting compulsion magic. It can't make the elf do something that elves just...don't do. Like if you used Dominate Monster and told the elf to burst into flames. Doesn't mean it'll happen.

On the other hand, a sleep poison is actually a neurotoxin. It messes with the elf's brain chemistry, causing unconsciousness or a sleeplike state which isn't actually the same as what humans do at night.

[MrNexx]

RAW (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/races.html), elves do sleep.

They are humanoid. Humanoids sleep. Their stat blocks don't say they don't. Stat blocks trump flavor text, including the single reference in the Dream spell.

[Narmoth]

I can come up with enough reasons for an elf to want to have a bedroll that he or she would by one:
First of all, even if they don't sleep, they get tired, and wouldn't everyone want a nice bedroll to rest on.
There are sertain activities besides sleeping that are more conveniently performed when in a bedroll than without. Sleepin with someone are probably the most important. So, your elf might wan't a bedroll for that reason.
What if your elf gets sick, like from poison, wouldn't he wan't to lay in a nice warm bedroll awaiting to get better or being carried to a healer?
Also, you can have stuff in it. It's an extra bag when you run out of other containers!

I could surely come up with more, but this is at least a start.

[SpiderBrigade]

Of course, by RAW, monks are unproficient with unarmed strike, aren't they?

[rawling]

Wow, you have a point. How did they miss that?
I mean, that's a step up from Drunken Master not being proficitent with improvised weapons, right?

Enough off-topic, sorry.

[Brauron]

Hehehe...this actually came up in my most recent session of D&D. We had a "Random Encounter" of sorts, with an acid rain storm. My barbarian opted to unroll his bedroll and hide under it until the storm passed. The Elf Wizard, played by the DM's girlfriend, hadn't bought a bedroll, because he (she played a male character just to annoy the DM, because they'd argued at the beginning of the campaign regarding how many genders of elf there are. His position is that there are two, male and female, while she maintains that the only gender of elf is "elf" and actually uses Vaarsuvius as an example) had a crappy STR and didn't want to carry extra stuff, and was simply using his cloak as a bed/meditation mat. So the Elf had to use my bedroll for protection as well. My bedroll was ruined, so now that we're in town again I'm buying two as a precaution...

Of course, this is the same Elf Wizard who used a substantial portion of his starting gold to buy a longsword and shortbow, "since I'm proficient in them anyways..." Though s/he has agreed to sell them now that we're in town, in order to buy useful things like a bedroll and more ink and paper (to go with the 8 oz. of ink and 200 sheets of paper s/he looted earlier).

[Norsesmithy]

I like to think that elves, when trancing, are so oblivious that they pratically have to take damage to be roused. Despite their eyes being open, they aer more oblivious than a regular sleeper.

Many think that they are actually dead, and an elf sleeping alone in lands that have never seen them before may wake up in a crematorium, or a fresh grave.

[Desaril]

RAW (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/races.html), elves do sleep.

They are humanoid. Humanoids sleep. Their stat blocks don't say they don't. Stat blocks trump flavor text, including the single reference in the Dream spell.

Are you serious? I hope not, because if so, why are we debating about bedrolls? Nothing in the RAW requires bedrolls. Nothing even requires sleep (except to recover from exhaustion, but it doesn't say that if you sleep less than 8 hours you are exhausted). If this were a boardgame, the stat blocks would definitely trump flavor text, but I believe that the rule mechanics are trying to put definition on the flavor text.

For example, dwarves are supposed to be "stout and tough, but tend to be gruff and reserved." That's why they get the CON bonus and CHA penalty. Not the other way around.

[MrNexx]

Are you serious? I hope not, because if so, why are we debating about bedrolls? Nothing in the RAW requires bedrolls. Nothing even requires sleep (except to recover from exhaustion, but it doesn't say that if you sleep less than 8 hours you are exhausted). If this were a boardgame, the stat blocks would definitely trump flavor text, but I believe that the rule mechanics are trying to put definition on the flavor text.

Actually, that's the official line from WotC... official stat blocks trump flavor text. I understand that nothing in RAW requires bedrolls... but I wasn't replying directly to the main topic, either.

[Roderick_BR]

The only difference between normal sleep, and elve's meditation is that it's more effective (only 4 hours needed), and that it makes them more resistent to sleep spells. Other than that, their meditation is the same as normal sleep.

[MrNexx]

Right, but according to the SRD, elves don't even get that.

[Shazzbaa]

This is a surprisingly interesting discussion...

As far as sleepy poison, I'm going with Spider Brigade's theory.

Also, just a question of those of you who are debating this whole "who needs a bedroll" thing, for a character who's one of those "hermit living in the wilderness" types, would he realistically be fine without a bedroll, unless in some particularly adverse condition?

[Matthew]

Hmmn. Well, in terms of game mechanics it would make no difference. In terms of 'realism' hermit types who choose to sleep in the open without any form of bedding are going to suffer (which ,obviously, some thought not undesirable).

[Desaril]

The only difference between normal sleep, and elve's meditation is that it's more effective (only 4 hours needed), and that it makes them more resistent to sleep spells. Other than that, their meditation is the same as normal sleep.


I'd like a reference to this statement. I don't see anything that says meditation is the same as normal sleep. If that's what WOTC meant, they could have simply said: Elves only need to sleep 4 hours a day. Or Elves only need to sleep half as much time as other humanoids.

I'm also interested in Mr. Nexx' comment that "humanoids sleep". I've never seen stat block that said anything about sleeping. That said, I'm sure that the "rule" that stat blocks trump flavor text was meant for those times the two were in direct conflict. In this case, stat blocks are silent on sleeping, so we have to consider rules beyond the stat block.

The only rule I've seen requiring sleep is that a wizard must have 8 hours sleep to prepare spells (PHB 178). I've found the rule that sleeping in armor (it doesn't say how long) leaves you fatigued. Its in the description of the Endurance feat (PHB 93). You recover from fatigue by 8 hours of COMPLETE REST, not sleep. If we go with that RAW, you are fatigued if you take a 20 minute nap in armor, and have to spend 8 hours resting in order to recover. The rules on forced march indicate that you can march yourself into unconsciousness, but that is a result of sustaining nonlethal damage from overexertion, not simply lack of sleep.

Simply put, I don't see any official rule that requires sleep. I think in the absence of rules, that characters (other than elves) need to sleep and its up to the DM to make reasonable house rules regarding that. I don't think we can simply resort to the RAW to answer the initial topic (bedrolls) or the subtopic (elven meditation, generally).

Of course, that's about where we started. I think we have to first ask- do we want to provide elves this bonus ability (to preserve game balance or texture or whatever)? If so, how does the ability work (in "real" terms). Is it a magical ability handed down by the elven gods or is it a physiological difference or whatever? Then we have follow that decision to its logical conclusions both in real terms (if elves don't sleep, do they have dreams?) and in game terms (if elves don't sleep how are they affected by fatigue and exhaustion rules). Then we go back and modify to bring the rule in line with logic and playability.

If we skip the last two steps, our rules are arbitrary and eventually a birght player will question it and the only response we have is: "Cause I'm the DM and that's my rule". I know how much we hated it when our parents said it; I hate to hear a DM say it now; I hate the times as DM that I have to say it, just to keep the game moving. I know we all won't agree on the answers, but I hope that the discussion gives GMs and players something substantial to rely on in creating their own answers.

[Jack Mann]

Des, it's in the Types and Subtypes section of the SRD, or in the back of the Monster Manual.

Mr. Nexx, by the SRD, you're correct. But by the books, you're not. The stat block allows for this.


A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

The creature's entry in the PBH does note otherwise. Therefore by the PHB, they don't sleep, though by the SRD, they do.

[Desaril]

Thanks JM! Of course, (and I'm sure you expected this) it doesn't say anything about the amount of sleep required/day, what conditions are needed for restful sleep or what happens if don't sleep. It is completely within that rule to say that a humanoid has to sleep 1 hour/year and suffers no ill effects from not doing so!

I know I'm being pedantic, now (as if I wasn't before), but hopefully you see my point.

[TheOOB]

Non-magical methods of forcing sleep (ie poison) don't acually cause you to go to sleep, they cause you to go unconscious, you are unconscious while you sleep, but sleeping != unconsciousness.

Unconsciousness is simply a state where you loss your ability to to percieve and interact with your enviroment due to decreased(or rather changed) brain activity. This state can be caused by changes to the chemical structure to your body, significant trama, especially to the head, shock, or a number of other factors.

Sleep is a process where the human(dwarf, halfling, ect) body enters a limited state of unconsiousness to rest and restore themselves. While sleeping a human is not fully unconscious, they still retain some of their perception(ie loud noises, bright lights, ect can wake them up where a unconscious would not be so easily awakened). While sleeping a humans brain acually doesn't slow down all that much, hence the fabrication of dreams. Sleep isn't due to a dramatic change to our chemical make-up or trama like unconscious, but rather a natural reaction to fatigue.

Elves can still be knocked unconscious, poison, trama, ect can still disrupt their normal brain patterns and cause them to lose control of their body and perceptions. However elves cannot enter a state of sleep. Instead they enter a state of trace which is almost identical mechanically to sleep, but their brain works differently (hence how elves don't dream like humans do), and restores their bodies (though not neccesarly their minds) twice as quick as sleep does.

When I cast sleep on you, it's basically tricking your mind into thinking it's time to sleep. When used on an elf it doesn't do anything. Telling an elf to sleep is like programming a computer without a CD drive to eject it's CD tray, you can tell it to do it, but it can't comply with the order.

On the otherhand, if I use choloform on an elf, it disrupts the chemicals in their brains forcing them into unconscious just like a human. The poison doesn't trick you mind into doing something undesireable, it physilogically suspends you perceptions and movement.

In theory you could create a version of the sleep spell, call it trance, that forces an elf into trace but has no effect on someone who doesn't trance (ie a human). It's not unreasonable, and it would effect an elf just fine (other then their +2 vs enchantment), their immune to magic sleep effects, but not magic trance effects. By the same standard a human would be immune to magic trance effects, but not magic sleep effects.

EDIT: Wow, how many catgirls was that.

[MrNexx]

Mr. Nexx, by the SRD, you're correct. But by the books, you're not. The stat block allows for this.


Right. ..........

[Desaril]

@ TheOOB- I agree with your basic idea and accept that unconsciousness and sleep are not identical, however they are closely related. Voluntarily going to sleep, falling asleep from exhaustion, being poisoned with cholorform, losing consciousness from oxygen deprivation, and being knocked out by trauma are all different mechanisms of losing consciousness, but they are the results are largely the same. Even when you are knocked unconscious by truama, you can be roused by noise or motion, it just takes more stimulation to regain consciousness. If elven physiology makes them incapable of voluntarily going to sleep and able to avoid staying awake due to exhaustion, then it stands to reason that they have a resistance (not immunity) from the other mechanisms.

[Yuki Akuma]

@ TheOOB- I agree with your basic idea and accept that unconsciousness and sleep are not identical, however they are closely related. Voluntarily going to sleep, falling asleep from exhaustion, being poisoned with cholorform, losing consciousness from oxygen deprivation, and being knocked out by trauma are all different mechanisms of losing consciousness, but they are the results are largely the same. Even when you are knocked unconscious by truama, you can be roused by noise or motion, it just takes more stimulation to regain consciousness. If elven physiology makes them incapable of voluntarily going to sleep and able to avoid staying awake due to exhaustion, then it stands to reason that they have a resistance (not immunity) from the other mechanisms.

When you're asleep you're not entirely unconcious. You're still partially aware of your surroundings; that's why you can be woken up by noises or bright lights. When you're fully uncocious, it's much harder for someone to get your attention, as you're totally unaware of your surroundings. Also, while fully unconcious, your brain activity goes way down, but when you're asleep the amount of activity basically stays the same, which is why you dream when you sleep but not when you've been knocked out.

Sleep and full unconciousness don't really have that much in common.

[Tor the Fallen]

The necesity of a bedroll, and anything else that shields one from the elements, is contingent upon the weather. Simply because elves don't need sleep doesn't mean that they can't get cold.

If it's below 65° at night and you're sleeping on the cold ground, expect to be needing a bedroll, or wake up fatigued. Unless you've got endurance.

If you're in the desert at night without a bedroll, there's even a chance you may be taking cold damage.

[Vispear]

I think just some sort of meditation mat would suffice, because, meditation, is I've depicted it..is like people meditate..sit there and be all like "oooom" yeah, that.
So, I don't think they need a bedroll =] Just something soft to sit on.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Giant's take on this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0334.html

[Yuki Akuma]

I think just some sort of meditation mat would suffice, because, meditation, is I've depicted it..is like people meditate..sit there and be all like "oooom" yeah, that.
So, I don't think they need a bedroll =] Just something soft to sit on.

And then they freeze to death.

[jono]

Elves;

Immune to sleep: Yes.

Immune to piles from sitting and meditating on cold wet ground for eight hours: No!:smallbiggrin:

[Desaril]

Two people have offered that unconsciouness is markedly different from sleep, but I believe a more accurate statement is that true unconsciousness and sleep are on the same continuum of consciousness. On one end is fully awake, then that drowsy half-asleep feeling you get during a boring 2PM lecture after a big lunch, then sleep, then being knocked out, then a coma.

In contrast to some opinions, we are responsive to external stimuli (noise, light, vibration, temperature) and have varying brain activity in all of these states. The nodding of your head may wake you up when you are half-asleep, but you can hit the snooze with out fully-waking up once you're in a deep sleep. I've heard that people in comas have some response to relatives/visitors talking to them. It's not as cut & dry/on or off as has been suggested.

If we go supernatural, people claim to experience a kind of hyper-consciousness (perhaps related to drug usage?) and perhaps death is hyper unconsciousness. The categories are NOT different like dogs and cats, they are different like housecats and tigers.

[Ojoxsofeta]

Like it's been said No one ever needs one, but if you can carry it, do it. People often forget the mudane items that are frequently (in things I DM at anyrate) as useful as magic items.

Off the top of my head a Bedroll does the following:
Stretcher,
decoy,
it's burnable,
keeps hostages heads covered,
throw over caltrops,
simple pit trap cover,
cozt place to bring the tavern wench back to.

Why not just go upstairs to one of the many rooms that could be had for a few gold at most?

[Aimbot]

The lesser races have bedrolls. Elves have bean bag chairs.

[Bears With Lasers]

If I were a tavern wench, I wouldn't be goin' back to no cheap-ass bedroll, that's for damn sure.

Aimbot, you get a cookie.

[Aimbot]

Aimbot, you get a cookie.

That advanced culture and thousand year life span has to be good for something.