Pathfinder tiers?

[137beth]

I'm quite familiar with 3.5, but have very little knowledge of pathfinder.
I read the guide on differences between 3.5 and 3.P, and see that a lot of classes relative power levels have changed. So, my question is:
Has anyone re-build the tier system for the pathfinder rules?

[FMArthur]

I'm quite familiar with 3.5, but have very little knowledge of pathfinder.
I read the guide on differences between 3.5 and 3.P, and see that a lot of classes relative power levels have changed. So, my question is:
Has anyone re-build the tier system for the pathfinder rules?

It really depends on what kind of game you're running. If you're running just Pathfinder material the Bard may actually drop to Tier 4 for instance.

The following are my impressions from having looked at class descriptions, so they may have changed (archetypes, feats) and I may have overlooked things. I play Pathfinder but just haven't had the opportunity to see a lot of the classes in action. The groups I play with just don't try new things very often, so it's usually up to me to play any new stuff.

Paladin may just edge into Tier 4 from Tier 5, and Soulknife is may be a low Tier 4 as well (it got lots of buffs, but was one of the lowest Tier 5s).

Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers are their same tiers doing mostly their usual things, sometimes better and sometimes worse. Rogues and Barbarians might be better Tier 4s than they were, but the lack of ways to get pounce/free movement for non-Druids (:smallmad:) may actually have caused them more harm, and it's harder to get massive damage in melee due to the lack of certain feats. Same with Fighters and Monks in their Tier 5.

New class Witch comes in at Tier 1, and Oracle at Tier 2. Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus and Summoner seem to come in at Tier 3. Cavalier comes in at Tier 5. I don't have Ultimate Combat yet, but from the beta Gunslinger appears to fall neatly into Tier 4.

[Starbuck_II]

New class Witch comes in at Tier 1, and Oracle at Tier 2. Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus and Summoner seem to come in at Tier 3. Cavalier comes in at Tier 5. I don't have Ultimate Combat yet, but from the beta Gunslinger appears to fall neatly into Tier 4.

Gunslinger is 3 I think.
He can open locks (with his gun) with a class feature (not just break them).
He can cause Bleed (including ability damage bleed), death (*not even casters can do that in Pathfinder, Fort save or die), etc with his gun.
He can stop bleeding with his gun. Cause fear effects.
He can Cripple limbs.

He is highly versatile (he can do magic with his gun technically).

* Pathfinder changed most save or dies to damage (except Phantasmal Killer).
Finger of Death now deals 1d10/lv.

[FMArthur]

There are other versatile classes in tier 4. Tier 4 comes from being really good at one limited thing or having a varied assortment of tools but not really shining at anything in particular. The gunslinger is the latter IMO. Again, I don't have Ultimate Combat so I'm just using the beta information.

[Drachasor]

* Pathfinder changed most save or dies to damage (except Phantasmal Killer).
Finger of Death now deals 1d10/lv.

According to the PF SRD, Finger of Death deals 10 damage/level, not 1d10, on a failed save. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/finger-of-death)

Flesh to Stone is an instant-kill still. So is Trap the Soul. Sure, they change a few to 10dmg/level, but there are still plenty of instant-kills, and 10 damage/level is essentially 3d6 damage per level, so that's quite a lot.


I didn't get the impression Tiers changed much with PF when I looked over it. Maybe some moved one tier, though casters were unaffected.

[Engine]

Rogues and Barbarians might be better Tier 4s than they were, but the lack of ways to get pounce/free movement for non-Druids.

Barbarian could get Pounce with the Greater Beast Totem Rage Power (at 10th level).

It seems to me that the Tier System has remained the same in PF. Classes have bigger numbers, some new shiny power, but aren't changed that much. E.g., Paladins got some goodies, but all of these goodies do not change the class: the Paladin could do her job better, but she hasn't gained more tactical flexibility. Same for other classes.

[Drelua]

It may be hard to get pounce, but there are a lot of ways to move and attack. Mobile fighters, dervish dancer archetype bards (ultimate combat), and the level 2 word spell accelerate all give an extra move action, though it's kind of late with the fighter. So UMD can basically get you pounce. Of course, that doesn't really help barbarian, but if they can get someone else to cast it or get a potion, they're good.

Edit: I've been beaten to it on the barbarian.

[Aurenthal]

New class Witch comes in at Tier 1, and Oracle at Tier 2. Alchemist, Inquisitor, Magus and Summoner seem to come in at Tier 3. Cavalier comes in at Tier 5. I don't have Ultimate Combat yet, but from the beta Gunslinger appears to fall neatly into Tier 4.

Isn´t summoner extremely Overpowered? Or it just seems so by pure text?

[Tetrasodium]

Isn´t summoner extremely Overpowered? Or it just seems so by pure text?

short choice of spells* and few spell slots to use for them, equipment slots used by the caster can't be used by the eidolon(or the other way around?).can't use the summon monster SLA while eidolon is out & can only summon that 1/day with a 1 min ritual. I don't think they are as bad as they look

*some nice ones yea, even some with reduced level over when anyone else

[Retech]

Imo summoner comes in at tier 2, because they have essentially the same number of spells as the sorcerer (if we're talking about games where spamming Summon monster SLA is not discouraged) and the useful Eidolon.

A master summoner can pump out a ridiculous number of monsters, and as more books are released and the list grows, it will only become more versatile.

[stack]

Also, eidolons (or synthesists) can get pounce trivially (1 evolution point for quadrupeds), which doesn't help them moving up in tiers but is great for melee.

[FMArthur]

I certainly was underestimating the Summoner there, you guys were right about calling it tier 2. I remember that the Binder even made it into T2 with a similarly good summoning ability.

On Pounce/free movement: Pounce and not-getting-screwed-for-moving in general was almost a hallmark of Tier 3 melee class design, but wasn't entirely what made them tier 3 because it was easy to get for anyone using class-independent resources. Barbarian and to a much lesser extent, Ranger and Paladin, also had it in their class features in 3.5 despite being lower in tier.

I'm happy to see that Barbarian Rage Power for Pounce. I didn't know about that. It could have come much earlier, but it's better than the punt in the groin Fighters got for demanding mobility. I did see the Bard's free movement archetype in the brief period where UC was up on d20pfsrd and I liked it, but I don't think it's as critical to their success and doesn't help all the non-Bard melee classes. Regardless, none of these abilities change the tiers of their classes; they only make up for loss that almost all melee took in the conversion.

[Tetrasodium]

none of these abilities change the tiers of their classes; they only make up for loss that almost all melee took in the conversion.
what loss?

[Blisstake]

Being able to charge and full attack with a dip, I believe. Something I'm personally glad isn't around anymore (not that I don't think melee can't have nice things - I just didn't like how it became practically manditory)

[Fox Box Socks]

Bards are a little bit worse, and most everything else is a little bit better.

Overall, though, they're identical.

[Gnaeus]

I'm quite familiar with 3.5, but have very little knowledge of pathfinder.
I read the guide on differences between 3.5 and 3.P, and see that a lot of classes relative power levels have changed. So, my question is:
Has anyone re-build the tier system for the pathfinder rules?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194880
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207227

[Tetrasodium]

Being able to charge and full attack with a dip, I believe. Something I'm personally glad isn't around anymore (not that I don't think melee can't have nice things - I just didn't like how it became practically manditory)

yea I agree, I think that melee (and even ranged) is moving down a path with some nice things already as each new book comes out ( advanced player's guide, ultimate combat), but without the tome of battle crazy overload or 3.5's lets multiclass into all these broken PrC's to become good

[Bovine Colonel]

Bards are a little bit worse, and most everything else is a little bit better.

Overall, though, they're identical.

I believe Paladin moved up a tier and Druid got hit hard (but is still Tier 1)

[FMArthur]

what loss?

Free movement using magic items and feats. Any melee class in 3.5 could get free movement of some kind without much difficulty. In PF most of the time being able to move and be powerful in the same turn is apparently something only a spellcaster should be allowed to do.

[Retech]

Also, Eidolons can be used as a skill money.

I believe it's like 1 evolution point to get +8 racial bonus to a skill, which in many cases, supercedes the rogue.

Kali Eidolon (Eidolon with like twenty arms) > TWF Rogue
Trapfinding Eidolon > Trapfinding Rogue

And it's still good even if you take master summoner and halve its effective level. Just use it when you need it and spam summons when you don't.

[nyarlathotep]

I had thought with the new options presented throughout UC and UM monk had moved up to tier 4 but core only monk was still tier 5.

[Eldariel]

yea I agree, I think that melee (and even ranged) is moving down a path with some nice things already as each new book comes out ( advanced player's guide, ultimate combat), but without the tome of battle crazy overload or 3.5's lets multiclass into all these broken PrC's to become good

Before they drop the pretense that is Vital Strike and let people move and full attack freely without wasting feats, they'll never get anywhere.

[Greenish]

yea I agree, I think that melee (and even ranged) is moving down a path with some nice things already as each new book comes out ( advanced player's guide, ultimate combat), but without the tome of battle crazy overload or 3.5's lets multiclass into all these broken PrC's to become goodMelee usually multiclassed into other base classes in 3.5.

Not to mention that ToB was the best thing to ever happen to the entire system. :smalltongue:

[Hiro Protagonest]

I had thought with the new options presented throughout UC and UM monk had moved up to tier 4 but core only monk was still tier 5.

Core only monk is tier 6. With APG, it might be tier 5, with a good archetype. With UC, they get the new feats that mimic ToB stuff faster than fighters do, putting them at low to mid tier 4.

[Shadow Lord]

[Melee Class Here] with a small Synthesist Summoner dip for Pounce is pretty much awesome for Melee. I know it doesn't solve the problem, but it does help a bit. Especially when you can just Synthesize and, if you took enough levels, go large size. Which is rather cool.

[Tetrasodium]

Free movement using magic items and feats. Any melee class in 3.5 could get free movement of some kind without much difficulty. In PF most of the time being able to move and be powerful in the same turn is apparently something only a spellcaster should be allowed to do.

you can get freedom of movement a limited number of rounds/day from the liberation domain granted power, cleric, inquisitor (apg), and one of the paladin variants in apg all can take this at level1 and get additional uses as they advance in those classes. Plus there are a bunch of teamwork feats you can use to take advantage of other people's saves & one of the APG classes lets you do things like grat the effect of teamwork feats to allies in range ad swap out the ones you have from time to time as well. Plus there are a lot of alternatives to protect from the things you would need FoM in 3.5 to keep them from being SoD/SoL once you get into apg/uc

[Retech]

RAW, Synthesiests use the BAB of the Eidolon, which with the dip, is only 0 or 1.

And the archetype has a huge number of contradictions that need to be errata'd that it's been banned in Pathfinder society play.

[Starbuck_II]

RAW, Synthesiests use the BAB of the Eidolon, which with the dip, is only 0 or 1.

And the archetype has a huge number of contradictions that need to be errata'd that it's been banned in Pathfinder society play.

FAQ fixed that and says you use Eidolon BAB + other classes.

[Retech]

Ah nice.

I'm hoping for an official errata though, but that's just me. :smallsmile:

[Frosty]

Is the Cavalier really that horrible? Should I be worried in a PF game (most PF splats allowed. 3.5 stuff is not allowed in general) where my Cavalier is in the same party as a Rogue, an Inquisitor, and a Witch (the player is not very good at optimizing. We have to help him, but full caster + Hexes is hard to mess up anyways)? I have been told that for approx 1/6 of the campaign, I will not have access to my mount (probably for a few levels).

I'm slightly worried that I'll basically be neutered for those levels, to be honest, but besides that, is it really so bad? I feel like a Fighter with less feats who brings another weak fighter along, and the ability to share Teamwork feats feels pretty nice.

[nyarlathotep]

To be honest if you aren't going to get a mount be a samurai or one of the other cavalier archtypes instead of vanilla. It is neutering but there are archtypes who's main focus is not the mount.

[FMArthur]

you can get freedom of movement a limited number of rounds/day from the liberation domain granted power, cleric, inquisitor (apg), and one of the paladin variants in apg all can take this at level1 and get additional uses as they advance in those classes. Plus there are a bunch of teamwork feats you can use to take advantage of other people's saves & one of the APG classes lets you do things like grat the effect of teamwork feats to allies in range ad swap out the ones you have from time to time as well. Plus there are a lot of alternatives to protect from the things you would need FoM in 3.5 to keep them from being SoD/SoL once you get into apg/uc

Free movement means movement for free - melee classes that depend on full attacks it means being able to move and full attack. Most of them don't get it in any form from their class and that's a problem that got solved in 3.5 eventually by becoming available in feats and magic items so you don't have to multiclass just to be mobile and powerful at the same time. The Freedom of Movement spell is not what I was talking about at all. :smallconfused:

[Blisstake]

[Melee Class Here] with a small Synthesist Summoner dip for Pounce is pretty much awesome for Melee. I know it doesn't solve the problem, but it does help a bit. Especially when you can just Synthesize and, if you took enough levels, go large size. Which is rather cool.

Doesn't that replace your physical stats with your eidolon's though?

[Shadow Lord]

Doesn't that replace your physical stats with your eidolon's though?

Yeah. Your point being?

[Blisstake]

My point is, the Eidolon physical stats aren't too impressive, are they? Especially if you've only got a single level in synthesist. The eidolon also wouldn't get the +1 to a stat every 4 levels. I might be missing something, but it seems like a fairly risky dip to me.

[Shadow Lord]

My point is, the Eidolon physical stats aren't too impressive, are they? Especially if you've only got a single level in synthesist. The eidolon also wouldn't get the +1 to a stat every 4 levels. I might be missing something, but it seems like a fairly risky dip to me.

You can give your Belt of Physical Perfection to your Eidolon, boosting all of his Physical Stats by 6, purchase him a Manual of +5, and if you decide to go the other way around as a Synthesist with a Fighter Barbarian dip, then you can get a fairly impressive Strength, before you count on enhancement/item bonuses.

You can also get a second pair of arms. That is worth a dip, always.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, but my point is PC stats would be even better with those items. Also, by the time you've got those, enemies could definitely have access to banishing magic, which would leave you virtually gearless if your eidolon were to vanish.

[Shadow Lord]

Yeah, but my point is PC stats would be even better with those items. Also, by the time you've got those, enemies could definitely have access to banishing magic, which would leave you virtually gearless if your eidolon were to vanish.

Which is why you invest in Save boosting items for you Eidolon! And pounce is worth it. Pounce and an extra set of arms is even better.

[Frosty]

To be honest if you aren't going to get a mount be a samurai or one of the other cavalier archtypes instead of vanilla. It is neutering but there are archtypes who's main focus is not the mount.
I am, I'll just lose access to my mount during one extended dungeon that I think will be approx 1/6 of the campaign. My build is centered around 1) Charging while mounted with a lance and 2) bullrushing. I have a tertiary focus on protecting allies (using Bodyguard feat to be able to give my allies a +4 AC on reaction as an AoO? Hell yes) since my order is Order of the Dragon.

[nyarlathotep]

I am, I'll just lose access to my mount during one extended dungeon that I think will be approx 1/6 of the campaign. My build is centered around 1) Charging while mounted with a lance and 2) bullrushing. I have a tertiary focus on protecting allies (using Bodyguard feat to be able to give my allies a +4 AC on reaction as an AoO? Hell yes) since my order is Order of the Dragon.

You might want to ask if you could use a large sticky pad lizard, raptor, or some other mount that can travel through dungeons.

[Blisstake]

Which is why you invest in Save boosting items for you Eidolon! And pounce is worth it. Pounce and an extra set of arms is even better.

Eh... I still don't see it. You always want to invest in save boosting items, regardless of what class you are, and even then you aren't guarenteed to make all of your saves. While banishment isn't as bad as other potential debilitations at that level, it does became another thing you have to watch out for.

Pounce is also forcing you to have your strength be at 14, when it could start as high as 20 (18 is more reasonable, though). Even then, pounce isn't always the greatest thing ever. It still requires you do have a straight line of effect to the target, without anything in the way (including difficult terrain, and other impediments). And it's not benefiting you if you'd be able to do a full attack anyway. By the time you get a lot of attacks on your full attack, you're missing out on the free stat bonuses from levelling up.

As for the extra arms, I'm honestly not aware of how good that would be. I never remember the rules for natural attacks, or multi-weapon fighting. However, I do believe synthesist is being looked at by Paizo to clear a lot of this up. The BAB = Eidolon's for one thing, but also, I don't believe you are supposed to get arms/legs that are part of the eidolon's base form; only extra limbs that would be gained through evolutions. Hopefully these changes help even the class out a bit.

Also, I was only arguing about the synthesist class as a 1 level dip. I really don't have anything to say about it as a class overall.

[Larpus]

My point is, the Eidolon physical stats aren't too impressive, are they? Especially if you've only got a single level in synthesist. The eidolon also wouldn't get the +1 to a stat every 4 levels. I might be missing something, but it seems like a fairly risky dip to me.
Not really, I did some math and it looks much better than it sounds, I'll just copy what I wrote in another thread about this, it's not 100% opmized nor the math is 100% correct, but it isn't that far off either:

A 1~2 level dip into Summoner Synthesist (quad) is indeed not that great due to stats and the fact that you need to grab Extra Limbs (arms), so all it nets you is +2~4 armor (with no check penalty, so good for casters and rogue-likes), +1~2 BAB, +2 to all saves, +10ft movement, Pounce, an 1d6 Bite attack, possibly two 1d4 Claw attacks, 11~24 extra HP, but the physicals aren't so great at the base 14/14/13 Str/Dex/Con, but might still be better than your stats could look like in point-buy; still, not that great for melee types, while casters and the such would be better with biped which would allow better physical stats.

However, if you dip your nacho for a little longer and go for lvl5 you get the armor bonus from a half-plate (but no penalty), about 40 extra HP, Pounce, your physicals look impressive at something like 20/16/14 str/dex/con, you have Darkvision, Evasion, +2 to all saves and, on top of it all, you cast as a lvl5 Summoner, which among other things allows you to Haste yourself up for 10 rounds/day. Also, if you want to you can forego some physical stats and grab DR 5/alignment.

Hell, if you go for Summoner 6, mix and match your Evos a bit and you can grab Large which nets you bigger damage dies, +8 Str, +4 Con, the AC and Dex loss cancel with the natural armor increase so in the end all you lose is 1 to-hit. So now your monster stats are something like 26/14/18, while all your mentals are around 14+, I want to see anyone pull that before any equipment, buffs and etc are factored in.

[Tetrasodium]

Eh... I still don't see it. You always want to invest in save boosting items, regardless of what class you are, and even then you aren't guarenteed to make all of your saves. While banishment isn't as bad as other potential debilitations at that level, it does became another thing you have to watch out for.

Pounce is also forcing you to have your strength be at 14, when it could start as high as 20 (18 is more reasonable, though). Even then, pounce isn't always the greatest thing ever. It still requires you do have a straight line of effect to the target, without anything in the way (including difficult terrain, and other impediments). And it's not benefiting you if you'd be able to do a full attack anyway. By the time you get a lot of attacks on your full attack, you're missing out on the free stat bonuses from levelling up.

As for the extra arms, I'm honestly not aware of how good that would be. I never remember the rules for natural attacks, or multi-weapon fighting. However, I do believe synthesist is being looked at by Paizo to clear a lot of this up. The BAB = Eidolon's for one thing, but also, I don't believe you are supposed to get arms/legs that are part of the eidolon's base form; only extra limbs that would be gained through evolutions. Hopefully these changes help even the class out a bit.

Also, I was only arguing about the synthesist class as a 1 level dip. I really don't have anything to say about it as a class overall.


He's talking about your eidolon taking pounce and buying extra items for it on top of your own. there is a slot conflict thing going on between the summoner & eidolon where for example.... a belt on one counts as using the belt slot for both. Also, I'm not sure the synthesyst can use the edilon's feats

[Blisstake]

He's talking about your eidolon taking pounce and buying extra items for it on top of your own. there is a slot conflict thing going on between the summoner & eidolon where for example.... a belt on one counts as using the belt slot for both. Also, I'm not sure the synthesyst can use the edilon's feats

This... doesn't contradict anything anyone said. I know what he's talking about.

[Larpus]

He's talking about your eidolon taking pounce and buying extra items for it on top of your own. there is a slot conflict thing going on between the summoner & eidolon where for example.... a belt on one counts as using the belt slot for both. Also, I'm not sure the synthesyst can use the edilon's feats
If you mean the Eidolon level features, then I guess they can, the Synthesist does get Share Spells (specifically mentioned in the FAQ), so it would make little sense for the rest to not be applicable.

If it's about actual feats that you only qualify for while fused with the Eidolon, then you can too, but you can only use them while fused, but if you build such a character, you won't be doing much fighting not fused.

[DeMouse]

Monk is now Tier 5. Except for the Zen Archer archetype which is tier 2-3 if you get your bow enchanted with the Guided Weapon property.

Paladin is Tier 3, Fighter/Barbarian are tier 4 Ranger is Tier 5.

Druid is now Tier 1 instead of Tier 0.

[MeeposFire]

Monk is now Tier 5. Except for the Zen Archer archetype which is tier 2-3 if you get your bow enchanted with the Guided Weapon property.

Paladin is Tier 3, Fighter/Barbarian are tier 4 Ranger is Tier 5.

Druid is now Tier 1 instead of Tier 0.

Druid was never tier 0. Paladin shouldn't be tier 3 until they get better standard actions. Tier 4 and high tier 4 is more accurate IMO.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Monk is now Tier 5. Except for the Zen Archer archetype which is tier 2-3 if you get your bow enchanted with the Guided Weapon property.

Paladin is Tier 3, Fighter/Barbarian are tier 4 Ranger is Tier 5.

Druid is now Tier 1 instead of Tier 0.

Paladin is tier 4 (I don't care that they can get a Pegasus mount, they could do that in 3.5 too). Fighter is tier 5. Barbarian is still tier 4 (though maybe slightly higher tier 4), and ranger is low tier 4. Druids were never tier 0.

[nyarlathotep]

Monk is now Tier 5. Except for the Zen Archer archetype which is tier 2-3 if you get your bow enchanted with the Guided Weapon property.


Lord no all the zen archer does is increase damage output. Damage alone cannot ever bring you higher than tier 4. Quiggong monk is significantly higher than zen archer in what the tier system measures; the ability to deal with any problem an adventurer might encounter be it terrain, enemies, or social intrigue.

tier 0 belongs to 3 very specific alternate classes only. An archivist with a DM who lets them buy any spell from any book and assumes numerous wizards around the world have the southern magic feat, spells-to-powers erudite, and psionic artificer.

[Drachasor]

Lord no all the zen archer does is increase damage output. Damage alone cannot ever bring you higher than tier 4. Quiggong monk is significantly higher than zen archer in what the tier system measures; the ability to deal with any problem an adventurer might encounter be it terrain, enemies, or social intrigue.

Yes, an important point to remember. If you have a guy that can do 1000 damage in one standard action as a melee attack and little else, then that guy is Tier 4. He's really, really good at that one trick, but he has nothing else. Tier 3 and above require flexibility too.