Question about Spellthief/Unseen Seer

[Elric VIII]

So, I was thinking about a rather standard build of Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4.

The classic advice I see for this build is to take Hunter's Eye ASAP, but I fail to see how that is extremely useful.

Just to compare to a character that a friend is using in a current campaign at level 18.

He is Rogue 4/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 10 (not in that exact order).
He has 9d6 SA (plus craven, Int to damage, Dex to damage, and 2x Dex to damage vs flat-footed enemy).
On a full attack he gets 6 attacks (BAB 16), with pounce and the option to get 2 more attacks with Dancing Mongoose.
When fully equipped he gains roughly 7d6 more SA (although this is, theoretically, achievable by me).



At level 18 my USS has:


6d6 SA (plus Craven, maybe) and a BAB of 9. A few times a day I can have an additional 7d6 SA, but I won't have nearly as many attacks.
Assuming I go for TWF (not a good idea, being so fragile) I can get 3 attacks.
With Rapid Shot I can get the same 3 for an additional feat, but at range.
Another option is to use Double Wand Wielder + Metamagic Spell Trigger(twin spell) with wands of acid splash for 4 touch attacks (with Hunter's Eye, the damage is comparable), but I would need dozens of wands to last even a week of adventuring and that would cost me 4 feats.


So my question is this: Is it better to try and focus on dealing damage with SA or should I just use it as a way to disrupt enemy spellcasters (via spell stealing)?

Also, if I don't want to bother with damage, do ambush feats become useful (especially Eldritch Erosion)?

[Optimator]

Being a Wizard, you should have a variety of ways to deny enemies their dex (or flank), such as Greater invisibility, grease, greater blink, hold person, stun ray, summoning/calling/binding a dedicated flanking buddy, etc etc. Damage itself, though, probably won't be your strong suit. In my opinion you should do acceptable damage as-is (enough to matter in CR-appropriate fights, but you'll be no all-star) but have a gazillion more tricks than most sneak attack damage builds, which should more than make up for it.

I personally love ambush feats. Check out Staggering Strike from CAdv, it's particularly good. Perhaps one of the reserve feats to have a reliable ranged attack.

Prepare an action to launch a sneak-attack Orb of Acid at a caster casting a spell... brilliant! Sounds like a great and useful character for any adventuring party.

[Elric VIII]

Being a Wizard, you should have a variety of ways to deny enemies their dex (or flank), such as Greater invisibility, grease, greater blink, hold person, stun ray, summoning/calling/binding a dedicated flanking buddy, etc etc. Damage itself, though, probably won't be your strong suit. In my opinion you should do acceptable damage as-is (enough to matter in CR-appropriate fights, but you'll be no all-star) but have a gazillion more tricks than most sneak attack damage builds, which should more than make up for it.

I personally love ambush feats. Check out Staggering Strike from CAdv, it's particularly good. Perhaps one of the reserve feats to have a reliable ranged attack.

Prepare an action to launch a sneak-attack Orb of Acid at a caster casting a spell... brilliant! Sounds like a great and useful character for any adventuring party.

Rendering foes flatfooted is not much of a problem, especially with higher-level equipment like Ring of Blink. Although maic does make it more economical.

My point is, it seems like taking Hunter's Eye and Arcane Trickster in order to increase the SA damage is not the best use of resources.

Staggering strike is pretty cool, but it seems that its DC could be more effectively influenced by the spell on which the SA is delivered rather than the SA itself.

[AdalKar]

Look at the spell Hunter's Eye.
Look at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level).
Look again at Hunter's Eye.

Wow, that can be some serious extra d6 :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Remember that not only are you a Sneak Attack machine, you are also a full caster! Put those spells to use, and buff yourself sky-high, get some of that SA-boosting equipment he's got and go to town. At your level, being able to find and anticipate threats with divinations is more useful than ganking dudes, especially if those dudes are immune to precision damage (since he has no UMD, but look who doesn't need it).

[Elric VIII]

Remember that not only are you a Sneak Attack machine, you are also a full caster! Put those spells to use, and buff yourself sky-high, get some of that SA-boosting equipment he's got and go to town. At your level, being able to find and anticipate threats with divinations is more useful than ganking dudes, especially if those dudes are immune to precision damage (since he has no UMD, but look who doesn't need it).

Right, I'm just wondering how much my utility casting will be hampered by focusing on buffs et al. At some point it seems that my spellcasting will be larely consumed by trying to match melee.

[Flickerdart]

If you play your cards right, you'll have so many spells you won't know what to do with them. You can easily spare the occasional 1st or 2nd level spell, for instance, and the long duration buffs aren't usually draining on resources. You are grabbing Spontaneous Divination, right?

[Elric VIII]

If you play your cards right, you'll have so many spells you won't know what to do with them. You can easily spare the occasional 1st or 2nd level spell, for instance, and the long duration buffs aren't usually draining on resources. You are grabbing Spontaneous Divination, right?

That makes sense. And Spontaneous Divination is almost a given.

I also realize now that with Arcane Thesis for CL increase and cheaper Persist I should do quite well. I think I am focusing too much on the traditional Rogue stratey of spam attacks.

[Treblain]

If you want to get off multiple sneak attacks, you can always make multiple attacks with a single ray spell, like Scorching Ray. And you can metamagic it up to hit more times, too.

[Elric VIII]

If you want to get off multiple sneak attacks, you can always make multiple attacks with a single ray spell, like Scorching Ray. And you can metamagic it up to hit more times, too.

Barring twin spell, Scorching Ray only gets one instance of precision damage since it is a volley.

[Thespianus]

So, I was thinking about a rather standard build of Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4.

I would grab some Abjurant Champion goodness instead of the Arcane Trickster levels. At that point, another 2D6 of Sneak Attack just isn't worth it, and the Abjurant Champion adds a range of extra fun stuff to the mix.

But, as others have pointed out, you're a full caster, missing only one level of casting. The vastly increased amount of flexibility this gives will make your buddy the non-casting Sneak Attacker weep.

There's tons of ranged spells that will help you (You will love Orbs of X), there are touch attack spells (Combust, I'm looking at you) that will help you unleash an entire store of dice when you attack (and, yes, touch attacks are yummy)

But, yes, if you only compare the damage output level between the two characters, you can feel underwhelmed. But, when you also start casting Glitterdust, Haste, Fly, Evard's Black Tentacles, Teleport in various incarnations, etc, when you use the Abrupt Jaunt ability you got by going Focused Conjurer, when you Buff yourself and the party to high heavens, chances are that your party won't be too impressed with your Swashbuckler friend anymore. ;)

The point of the Unseen Seer isn't that he can gain crazy amount of Sneak Attack damage, the point is that he can gain crazy amount of Sneak Attack damage on a full caster chassis.:smallwink:

Enjoy your Unseen Seer fun, it's well worth it. :smallsmile:

[Elric VIII]

But, yes, if you only compare the damage output level between the two characters, you can feel underwhelmed. But, when you also start casting Glitterdust, Haste, Fly, Evard's Black Tentacles, Teleport in various incarnations, etc, when you use the Abrupt Jaunt ability you got by going Focused Conjurer, when you Buff yourself and the party to high heavens, chances are that your party won't be too impressed with your Swashbuckler friend anymore. ;)

Oh, I'm not trying to match the swashbucker in SA damage. I'm pondering whether it is worth the effort to attain more that the bare minimum SA to steal spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider getting a way to cast or UMD divine power. Now you have a great Bab to get extra attacks from your hunter's eye.

I second Abjurent Champion. Great class with features that will make you awsome (dispell as a swift action!).

Consider your role in the party. You should be doing damage as a secondary effect on a attack. Sneak attack with enveneration or something that deals a good amount of damage in an energy type your foe is weak to.

Also, truestrike + sniper shot + hunter's eye + great crossbow. They will never see it comeing.

[Thespianus]

Oh, I'm not trying to match the swashbucker in SA damage. I'm pondering whether it is worth the effort to attain more that the bare minimum SA to steal spells.

You can't really steal much spells with spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 , even with Master Spellthief, right?

[Flickerdart]

You can't really steal much spells with spellthief 1/ Wizard 5 , even with Master Spellthief, right?
Master Spellthief applies to all arcane spellcasting classes. You can steal all the spells.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Master Spellthief applies to all arcane spellcasting classes. You can steal all the spells.

Pretty much this. A Master Spellthief could dip PrCs like bad to crank up a crazy high CL (depending on the reading) and just use things like Hunter's Eye to wreck things not immune to sneak attack - as well as a couple things that are.:smallwink:

The issue with Master Spellthief is that, RAW, you can only hold your Spellthief level's worth of spells at any given time.

[dextercorvia]

The issue with Master Spellthief is that, RAW, you can only hold your Spellthief level's worth of spells at any given time.

I'm trying to figure out why this claim is so common. Isn't holding spells part of the Steal Spells special ability? Shouldn't any reference to spellthief level in the Steal Spells ability be replaced with your effective spellthief level from Master Spellthief?

[Greenish]

I'm trying to figure out why this claim is so common. Isn't holding spells part of the Steal Spells special ability?Yes, but Master Spellthief says that your levels stack "for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal", which is different from what you can hold.

The maximum levels of spells you can hold is equal to your class level, the maximum level of spells you can steal is 1/2 of your class level. The feat, as written, only increases the latter.

Personally, I don't mind. You want to steal spells, play a spellthief. Full casters can do other stuff.

[Thespianus]

Master Spellthief applies to all arcane spellcasting classes. You can steal all the spells.

Ah, my bad, I thought the Master Spellthief feat was limited to Spellthief and Wizard levels. Most of the other feats (like Swift Hunter, Daring Outlaw, etc) are limited to Swashbuckler/Rogue, etc. But, yes, my mistake. Thanks.

[Elric VIII]

Wait, I was under the impression that as a Wiz 5/ST 1 I could steal and hold spells as a Spellthief 6, is this not the case?

Otherwise, Master Spellthief would be pretty useless as I would be taking Practiced Spellcaster to offset the Unseen Seer CL loss anyway.

[olentu]

Wait, I was under the impression that as a Wiz 5/ST 1 I could steal and hold spells as a Spellthief 6, is this not the case?

Otherwise, Master Spellthief would be pretty useless as I would be taking Practiced Spellcaster to offset the Unseen Seer CL loss anyway.

As I recall the master spelltheif feat only talks about what spell you can steal the spells you can hold I do not think are included.

[dextercorvia]

Wait, I was under the impression that as a Wiz 5/ST 1 I could steal and hold spells as a Spellthief 6, is this not the case?

Otherwise, Master Spellthief would be pretty useless as I would be taking Practiced Spellcaster to offset the Unseen Seer CL loss anyway.

I think it falls into an Ask Your DM. I would allow it, since I think of holding as an integral part of stealing, but Greenish's quote above tends to indicate the other side.

[Eldariel]

I usually Persist Hunter's Eye and the associated spells (Guided Shot, Golemstrike, Sniper's Shot, etc. - basically, make Sneak Attacks at any range without regard to concealment or such) and if I'm going Gish, add Divine Power to my spell list (Arcane Disciple, steal spell, Wand, what-have-you) and Persist (if I have ways to reduce its level, like Metamagic School Focus or Easy Metamagic)/Quicken it when I wanna attack people. Then use "Heroics" [Spell Compendium] to pick up Rapid Shot and profit.

The opportunity cost is small and you can actually get ~25d6 SA per attack and you'll have lots of attacks. It's pretty convenient for killing things you don't feel like wasting spell slots for and you're better than anyone else (you leave Rogues in shame). And no, it doesn't cost you too much; you can afford it. You still have Time Stop -> Gate shenanigans, Shapechange + Polymorph Any Object shenanigans, Simulacrums, Solid Fogs, Greater Dispels/Disjunctions, Walls of X, Teleports, etc.

[Elric VIII]

I usually Persist Hunter's Eye and the associated spells (Guided Shot, Golemstrike, Sniper's Shot, etc. - basically, make Sneak Attacks at any range without regard to concealment or such) and if I'm going Gish, add Divine Power to my spell list (Arcane Disciple, steal spell, Wand, what-have-you) and Persist (if I have ways to reduce its level, like Metamagic School Focus or Easy Metamagic)/Quicken it when I wanna attack people. Then use "Heroics" [Spell Compendium] to pick up Rapid Shot and profit.

The opportunity cost is small and you can actually get ~25d6 SA per attack and you'll have lots of attacks. It's pretty convenient for killing things you don't feel like wasting spell slots for and you're better than anyone else (you leave Rogues in shame). And no, it doesn't cost you too much; you can afford it. You still have Time Stop -> Gate shenanigans, Shapechange + Polymorph Any Object shenanigans, Simulacrums, Solid Fogs, Greater Dispels/Disjunctions, Walls of X, Teleports, etc.

Yeah, I figure that since I'm taking Spontaneous Divination I can take Practical Metamagic (via one of the Dragonbound races from DrM) and Easy Metamagic for a +4 Persist, with MM School Focus thrown in for safe measure.

Although, I have one more question for this build: Is there a spell like Wraithstrike that woks for ranged weapons?

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I figure that since I'm taking Spontaneous Divination I can take Practical Metamagic (via one of the Dragonbound races from DrM) and Easy Metamagic for a +4 Persist, with MM School Focus thrown in for safe measure.

Although, I have one more question for this build: Is there a spell like Wraithstrike that woks for ranged weapons?

No, though Find the Gap [Spell Compendium] works for one attack per round which is certainly better than nothing.

[Elric VIII]

No, though Find the Gap [Spell Compendium] works for one attack per round which is certainly better than nothing.

How convenient that it is a Divination spell. Thank you.