Some noob questions about Warlock and general mechanics.

[ccjmk]

Hello everyone!

I'm having my very first approach to D&D (3.5, but still, it's my first time in all of D&D) and i'm trying to get some things.. I'm considering in starting as a Warlock, because his Invocations mechanic sounds pretty appealing (and i so definitely want a badass class :smallbiggrin:) but nevertheless i want to clarify some things first: (Just for extra info, the party is currently formed by a crusader, a swordsage and a fighter)

a) I find the Eldritch Blast + essences + shapes mechanic fairly interesting, but there's something that concerns me; Warlock's table shows that i can have 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,7,7.. invocations. On lv1, i have Eldritch Blast, and i can have an invocation; does that mean that i can't choose anything!? Or doesn't Eldritch Blast count as an invocation? EB's essences and blast shapes also count as invocations, i pressume, so whenever i can learn a new invocation, i have to choose whether to learn an Essence/Shape or a blast-unrelated invocation, right?

b) I'm trying to figure out possible feats to choose; i will probably be a human warlock, so that i can benefit from that extra feat. But i'm pretty much confused about how feats that emulate metamagic effects on spell-like abilities work on Invocations. As far as i understood, i don't have spell slots, because i can freely use my invocations, right? So how does Quicken/Empower/Maximize/Heighten Spell-like Ability feats work on invocations?

c) If possible (and reasonable; i may be lacking D&D-wise thinking) i want to be able to score some chance if i can't use my invocations (i am absolutely ignorant about possible situations in which i can't use invocations, but i want to be prepared :P It this is an unnecesary precaution, please let me know). For that, i was considering two paths:
(c.1) Human Warlock, using Quarterstaff and having Two-handed fighting feat.
(c.2) Elven Warlock -quite weird, huh? :P- using Rapier with Weapon Finesse feat, taking advantage of my dex on meele attacks, as i am already required some good dex for aiming Eldritch Blasts.

d) Given the case i go for Human Warlock w/ quarterstaff, or just a regular Human Warlock, which other feats may be good to take? If i happen to go that weird rapier finess warlock, i have no feats left. Still, if it's more convenient to just grab a dagger and use both of my feats in other, non-weapon/combat related feats, i may probably go that way.

Thanks in advance for everything! And please, try to stay noob-level, i'm getting SO confused with so much reading :smallfrown:

[terminusdrop321]

A) eldritch blast is a spell like ability not an invocation.
you are free to choose from the list available.
B) MetaMagic feats do not work on Eldritch blast or the invocations.
if u want to modify Eldritch blast look at the Spell-like ability feats in MM1
C)Personally i prefer the Elfy build for the greater chance to hit things at close range. But Eldritch blast never runs out so....
D)Improved Initiative is always nice,Point-Blank Shot might be good for close up Blastage.

Personally i haven't played the class this is what my friends in my RL group have observed.

I hope this helps.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, while warlock is considered an okay class, it is definitely not one of the more powerful classes in the game. It's power level is actually considered relatively low. Anyway, if you are really interested in warlock, here is a useful handbook on it.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0

[A Ladder]

Hello everyone!

I'm having my very first approach to D&D (3.5, but still, it's my first time in all of D&D) and i'm trying to get some things.. I'm considering in starting as a Warlock, because his Invocations mechanic sounds pretty appealing (and i so definitely want a badass class :smallbiggrin:) but nevertheless i want to clarify some things first: (Just for extra info, the party is currently formed by a crusader, a swordsage and a fighter)

a) I find the Eldritch Blast + essences + shapes mechanic fairly interesting, but there's something that concerns me; Warlock's table shows that i can have 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,7,7.. invocations. On lv1, i have Eldritch Blast, and i can have an invocation; does that mean that i can't choose anything!? Or doesn't Eldritch Blast count as an invocation? EB's essences and blast shapes also count as invocations, i pressume, so whenever i can learn a new invocation, i have to choose whether to learn an Essence/Shape or a blast-unrelated invocation, right?
Eldritch blast is not an invocation. at lvl 1 you have the eldritch blast ability and can choose an invocation.



b) I'm trying to figure out possible feats to choose; i will probably be a human warlock, so that i can benefit from that extra feat. But i'm pretty much confused about how feats that emulate metamagic effects on spell-like abilities work on Invocations. As far as i understood, i don't have spell slots, because i can freely use my invocations, right? So how does Quicken/Empower/Maximize/Heighten Spell-like Ability feats work on invocations?
Since "metamagic" SLAs don't have spell slots you don't increase them like regular metamagic on spells. We'll use Empower Spell Like Ability as an example here. The text in the Monster Manual (pg 303) states that you can empower a SLA up to 3 times per day. So you can make an eldritch blast empowered whenever you want (at no restriction since it's not a spell). Except you can only do that three times a day. Make sense?
So the SLA metamagic feats actually only work a certain number of times a day, unlike metamagic feats on spells which can augment a spell equal to the number of times you can and want to do it.

A good feat I would pick up is Mortal Bane from BoVD. it adds +2d6 damage to an SLA (I would pick eldritch blast, as you hit things with it a lot), 5 times per day.



c) If possible (and reasonable; i may be lacking D&D-wise thinking) i want to be able to score some chance if i can't use my invocations (i am absolutely ignorant about possible situations in which i can't use invocations, but i want to be prepared :P It this is an unnecesary precaution, please let me know). For that, i was considering two paths:
(c.1) Human Warlock, using Quarterstaff and having Two-handed fighting feat.
(c.2) Elven Warlock -quite weird, huh? :P- using Rapier with Weapon Finesse feat, taking advantage of my dex on meele attacks, as i am already required some good dex for aiming Eldritch Blasts.
The only time I think that you will not be using evocations would be in Anti-magic fields (other playgrounders correct me if I am wrong), or if you're grappled. In the second case, weapons won't do you much good anyways. In the first place, you got other problems to worry about.



d) Given the case i go for Human Warlock w/ quarterstaff, or just a regular Human Warlock, which other feats may be good to take? If i happen to go that weird rapier finess warlock, i have no feats left. Still, if it's more convenient to just grab a dagger and use both of my feats in other, non-weapon/combat related feats, i may probably go that way.
Eldritch blast is going to be your typical way to attack. It's powerful (more than a dagger damage wise), has a good range at 60ft (get the Eldritch Spear invocation if you want more range), and you can use it an UNLIMITED times per day. I would not bother with weapons if I were you. you ARE a weapon.
Feats I love with a Warlock: Improved initiative (go first = hit first = kill first), Mortal Bane (as explained above). Ability Focus [Blast] (if you like essences that require saves), Empower/Quicken SLA (3/day of awesome), and the good ol' Extra Invocation (more invocations = funner time).
Ability Focus, Empower/Quicken Spell Like ability can be found in the Monster manual, Extra Invocation is found in Complete Arcane.



Thanks in advance for everything! And please, try to stay noob-level, i'm getting SO confused with so much reading :smallfrown:

EDIT: here's some items that I like for warlocks: Rod of Eldritch power (Free blast shape or essence), Warlock's scepter (Charges = more eldritch blast damage), Chasuble of Fell Power (static, +1d6 to Eldritch blast), Horizon Goggles (increase range on SLAs by 50%), Gloves of eldritch admixture (more damage to Eldritch blast).

[Xtomjames]

What everyone has said thus far is true, if you're going to go with human focus on getting as many feats as you can right off the bat to get more invocations available. Flaws are useful for this. Remember with RAW you have access to all invocations (this includes Dragonfire Adept invocations) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/invocations, after having a read through in the CA, just to check, you should get bonus invocations based on a high Cha score (like other spellcasters get bonus spells~ there is nothing saying you don't in the invocations section on page 7).

Feat's I'd suggest taking at low levels, Extra Invocation (once you get lesser invocations)(if you take the flaws: Berry Picker, Bipolar, Compulsive Killer, Daredevil, and/or others) you'll gain four extra feats at first level (not to mention have a very fun character to play~ see http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws). Other feats to consider, Speillfire Wielder (tome of magic), intensify darkness (FR Underdark), scribe tattoo, quick draw, point blank shot, ability focus eldritch blast, long shot, shot on the run.



Invocations to choose: Hammer Blast, Hideous Blow, Eldritch glaive for an up and in your face Warlock.

Eldritch Spear for long range sniper types, Darkness or Breath of Night for medium range.

[Glimbur]

What everyone has said thus far is true, if you're going to go with human focus on getting as many feats as you can right off the bat to get more invocations available. Flaws are useful for this.

First level feats don't help you get more invocations, you need Extra Invocation which you qualify for at 6th level.


Remember with RAW you have access to all invocations (this includes Dragonfire Adept invocations) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/invocations,

Then why are the invocations in Dragon Magic broken up into Dragonfire Adept invocations and Warlock invocations? In addition, the Infernal Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) feat suggests otherwise. It's a reasonable houserule, but it isn't RAW.


after having a read through in the CA, just to check, you should get bonus invocations based on a high Cha score (like other spellcasters get bonus spells~ there is nothing saying you don't in the invocations section on page 7).

Sorcerers don't get additional spells known for having high Cha, and the Invocations section states that a warlock learns invocations as stated on their table. There's nothing there about bonus invocations for high Cha.


Feat's I'd suggest taking at low levels, Extra Invocation (once you get lesser invocations)(if you take the flaws: Berry Picker, Bipolar, Compulsive Killer, Daredevil, and/or others) you'll gain four extra feats at first level (not to mention have a very fun character to play~ see http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Flaws). Other feats to consider, Speillfire Wielder (tome of magic), intensify darkness (FR Underdark), scribe tattoo, quick draw, point blank shot, ability focus eldritch blast, long shot, shot on the run.

Flaws are normally limited to 2/character (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm). The flaws you have listed are homebrew. There's nothing inherently wrong with homebrew [I've done a fair bit of it, I should know] but it is helpful to mark it as such.


Invocations to choose: Hammer Blast, Hideous Blow, Eldritch glaive for an up and in your face Warlock.

Eldritch Spear for long range sniper types, Darkness or Breath of Night for medium range.

Hideous Blow is, indeed, hideous.

I don't want to sound argumentative, but it's important to teach people the official rules first so they aren't confused later in a game.

[TurtleKing]

For a new player the Warlock is alright since you don't have a lot of book work.

[Xtomjames]

First level feats don't help you get more invocations, you need Extra Invocation which you qualify for at 6th level.



Then why are the invocations in Dragon Magic broken up into Dragonfire Adept invocations and Warlock invocations? In addition, the Infernal Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613) feat suggests otherwise. It's a reasonable houserule, but it isn't RAW.



Sorcerers don't get additional spells known for having high Cha, and the Invocations section states that a warlock learns invocations as stated on their table. There's nothing there about bonus invocations for high Cha.



Flaws are normally limited to 2/character (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm). The flaws you have listed are homebrew. There's nothing inherently wrong with homebrew [I've done a fair bit of it, I should know] but it is helpful to mark it as such.



Hideous Blow is, indeed, hideous.

I don't want to sound argumentative, but it's important to teach people the official rules first so they aren't confused later in a game.


Well a couple of things: Yes you're right extra invocations doesn't help until level six, I stated this that he had to wait until he gained Lesser invocations, note I didn't say at first level, I said at Low Levels.

Two, it's an unstated rule that one gains bonus spells or invocations unless the rules specifically say you don't (such as the case with the Sorcerer and Favored Soul). The fact is Bards gain extra spells based on charisma and this isn't a stated fact, all spell casters gain bonuses to what they gain unless otherwise specifically stated, if their appropriate stat is high enough. (See page 7 and 8 of the PHB.)

Three: the rules on flaws suggest a limit of 2, it doesn't say it has to be limited. As for homebrew flaws, the flaws in PHII and Unearthed Arcana are highly limited and not necessarily fun to play. They're not suitable for all characters, which is why I gave the dandwiki list. Ultimately it is up to his DM to decide of course on flaws.

There is also no explicit rule written anywhere that says Warlocks can't access Dragonfire Adept invocations and vice versa. They're split into two lists because they're the most common for those classes. Many of the invocations have prerequisites to use them that either class may or may not qualify for (warlocks for DF adept invocations and DF adept for Warlock Invocations) that said, that doesn't mean they're not accessible. The link you sent really made no mention of this.

Though when in doubt, ask your DM, in the end it comes down to his or her ruling.

Note: I'm not trying to argue here, I'm merely clarifying what I've said. Many of your points are valid, but it's depends on your interpretation of what is written.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would strongly suggest AGAINST the dandwiki list; it's not wotc, their are some really really weird flaws, lots of insulting stuff, lots of stuff with huge differences in power levels, etc. etc.

I would instead suggest that you stick with the wotc and Dragon Magazine flaws, the stuff that goes beyond SRD/UA/PHII. You can find the list of the rest of them at the realmshelps webpage, and that should give you enough to work off of!

[Xtomjames]

What are you talking about? Most of the flaws in Dandwiki are underpowered and give difficult DCs for overcoming the flaw its self. Most of the list is WoTC with some homebrew added to it. Not to mention that I specifically chose the ones I did because they fit the attitude of a Warlock and aren't difficult to use or too hindering on the character while at the same time providing the bonus feats.

[Laura Eternata]

You can't take Weapon Finesse on level 1 as a warlock. It's only prerequisite is a BAB of at least +1, which a first level warlock doesn't have (I assume you're starting on level 1, but I just realized that you didn't specify.) Besides, as someone pointed out, you never run out of Eldritch Blasts.

Other than that nitpick, I've little to say. I've never played a warlock myself, but I seem to remember people loving the Hellfire Warlock PrC... but that's probably too much detail for your first character! Speaking of which, welcome to the game!

[mootoall]

Just because the rules don't state you *can* doesn't mean you *do* gain anything from a high ability score. The Bard, Sorcerer and Wizard all talk about having getting more *spell slots* for having high ability scores. Warlocks don't get anything but higher DCs for a high Cha score.

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually, a Warlock can sometimes be considered --at some levels and at some optimization levels -- the only (or at least one of the few) character types that can still viably do his scthick with ability scores of straight 8's across the board.

[MeeposFire]

Well a couple of things: Yes you're right extra invocations doesn't help until level six, I stated this that he had to wait until he gained Lesser invocations, note I didn't say at first level, I said at Low Levels.

Two, it's an unstated rule that one gains bonus spells or invocations unless the rules specifically say you don't (such as the case with the Sorcerer and Favored Soul). The fact is Bards gain extra spells based on charisma and this isn't a stated fact, all spell casters gain bonuses to what they gain unless otherwise specifically stated, if their appropriate stat is high enough. (See page 7 and 8 of the PHB.)

Three: the rules on flaws suggest a limit of 2, it doesn't say it has to be limited. As for homebrew flaws, the flaws in PHII and Unearthed Arcana are highly limited and not necessarily fun to play. They're not suitable for all characters, which is why I gave the dandwiki list. Ultimately it is up to his DM to decide of course on flaws.

There is also no explicit rule written anywhere that says Warlocks can't access Dragonfire Adept invocations and vice versa. They're split into two lists because they're the most common for those classes. Many of the invocations have prerequisites to use them that either class may or may not qualify for (warlocks for DF adept invocations and DF adept for Warlock Invocations) that said, that doesn't mean they're not accessible. The link you sent really made no mention of this.

Though when in doubt, ask your DM, in the end it comes down to his or her ruling.

Note: I'm not trying to argue here, I'm merely clarifying what I've said. Many of your points are valid, but it's depends on your interpretation of what is written.

You are misinforming the OP. You need to stop.

1) Getting bonus spells are defined in the rules you do not get bonuses to anything else unless it specifically says so (like they did with psionics).

2) Bonus spells give you a bonus on spell uses not spells known so even if bonus spells applied to warlocks it would not do anything because they use invocations at will and you are talking about invocations known.

3) Unstated rules are not rules.

4) Favored souls and sorcerers DO get bonus spells. They don't get bonus spells known but nobody does.

5) If you are going to use something from that wiki site you need to make clear that it is pure homebrew and of very inconsistent quality.

[ccjmk]

I might be wrong, but aside from the fact that they give an extra feat, flaws sound to me like a particularly interesting way of giving an ingame consecuense to background story elements..
for instance, thought i'm now a little uncertain about your comments :P i found three flaws from dandwiki fairly interesting -one with a little homebrew spinoff-

Background Story-wise, i wanted to make my warlock Chaotic Good, having some mayor family tragedy involving demons or fiends that motivated him into using their own power against them for achieving his final revenge, and i seem to be able to make great roleplay use from this flaws:

Blind: Just as there's born blind and regular blind, i think that i can agree something with the DM for a "Self-blinded" flaw, going around this lines: I intentionally blinded myself as part of a ritual sacrifice to both gain demonic powers and tune my other senses and reflexes at the cost of sight.

Secret Voices: My sacrifice caused me to have demons speaking secretly to my mind, often blending with my own thoughts and causing me to listen to their voices as if it was my own inner voice.

Vow of Silence: Again, part of my ritual, blablabla etc etc.. quite interesting flaw for roleplaying :P

If possible, i'd probably go for ritual blinding + secret voices; thought i'm still uncertain about my feats.. i'll first have a word with the DM to see if there might be anti-magic fields or such situations forcing me to work around invocationless; if it's so, i'd probably go for the Elven rapier warlock w/Weapon Finesse. If not, then i'll just focus all my 4 feats in other stuff.

Opinions so far?

EDIT: AFAIK, i will be starting at lv1, so probably i will stick out of that nice elven warlock build :(

[Greenish]

Actually, a Warlock can sometimes be considered --at some levels and at some optimization levels -- the only (or at least one of the few) character types that can still viably do his scthick with ability scores of straight 8's across the board.Well, them, DFAs, druids and binders.

Of course, that doesn't really say much about them as a class.

[tyckspoon]

Two, it's an unstated rule that one gains bonus spells or invocations unless the rules specifically say you don't (such as the case with the Sorcerer and Favored Soul). The fact is Bards gain extra spells based on charisma and this isn't a stated fact, all spell casters gain bonuses to what they gain unless otherwise specifically stated, if their appropriate stat is high enough. (See page 7 and 8 of the PHB.)


No, it's not. It's a stated rule, in the PHB, that the PHB classes get bonus spells for high casting stats- all of the PHB classes are called out by name on page 7, and you are then referred to Chapter 3 for exactly how that works. Chapter 3, page 23, specifies that they mean only Spells Per Day when they say 'bonus spells'. The individual class descriptions restate that, with the additional clarifier that Spells Known are not affected where relevant. Non-PHB classes should have the same notes in their spellcasting descriptions, although it wouldn't surprise me if there are a couple that don't and strictly RAW don't receive bonus spell slots because of it.

So, if you want to apply that to Warlock: First, Invocations are not Spells, are not labeled under a Spellcasting or Spells feature, and therefore are not bound to the same rules in the first place. Second, even if they were and a high Charisma would give a Warlock bonus anything under those rules, it would be bonus Invocation Uses Per Day. Third, Least/Lesser/Greater/Dark Invocations do not map to the 1-9 spell level chart that you use to determine bonus spells. Getting '1 1st level spell' is meaningless to a Warlock. So. No. Warlocks do not, by any reading of RAW, get bonus anything for high Charisma.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wow, I was going to reply against xtomjames's reply to my post, but you all seem to be tearing into him appropriately without my help. I'm torn between saying 'kudos' or 'leave some of him left for me'!

[Greenish]

i'll first have a word with the DM to see if there might be anti-magic fields or such situations forcing me to work around invocationless; if it's so, i'd probably go for the Elven rapier warlock w/Weapon Finesse.If you get stuck in an antimagic field, your best hope is to get out of it. If that's not possible, second best option is to pick a bow and stay away from the enemies. If that's not possible, well, you're probably a dead elf walking.

If you must use a melee weapon, use a longspear, that puts at least some distance between you and the enemy.

[MeeposFire]

Also Dragon Magic is clear in the invocation section where it states that draconic invocations (notice a different title) can be chosen by DFAs while on the next page it says warlock invocations and that they can be taken by warlocks. In order for warlocks to pick up draconic invocations for free there would need to be a stated rule somewhere and considering they created a feat to do that it would appear the designers agree.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Warlock is a great class for a new player; it can do something in every scenario without lots of system mastery, and grants enough powah! that it isn't totally defenseless. Not as good as Dragon Fire Adept maybe, but if anything simpler.

[Drachasor]

I think Warlock is a great class for a new player; it can do something in every scenario without lots of system mastery, and grants enough powah! that it isn't totally defenseless. Not as good as Dragon Fire Adept maybe, but if anything simpler.

The Warlock really falls short of the DFA in how the latter gets its equivalent of Blast Shapes/Essences for free and not as invocations. Though the DFA seems to have half BAB for no reason at all.

[Greenish]

Though the DFA seems to have half BAB for no reason at all.Well, they haven't much use for it.

DFAs do benefit from coming later in the life of 3.5, when the designers had better idea on how powerful at will abilities really are (ie. not that strong), but warlocks are solid, too.

[Drachasor]

Well, they haven't much use for it.

Yeah, I just don't like pointless things that limit potential character concepts or flexibility for no reason.


DFAs do benefit from coming later in the life of 3.5, when the designers had better idea on how powerful at will abilities really are (ie. not that strong), but warlocks are solid, too.

Yeah, but a DM might want to copy over how the DFA works with their breath modifications onto the Warlock for EB modifications.

[MeeposFire]

I like both for new gamers. Both are fun and easy to use. Really it is a matter of skills, toughness/item creation, and theme to make a choice between the two.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would advise against a character with a vow of silence in the strongest possible terms.

[Drachasor]

I would advise against a character with a vow of silence in the strongest possible terms.

It's like playing a Wookiee. Sounds fun at the time, but not being able to talk regularly sucks.

[Kaje]

Complete Arcane's errata states that eldritch blast is in fact an invocation. It's just different from the others.

[The Dark Fiddler]

What are you talking about? Most of the flaws in Dandwiki are underpowered and give difficult DCs for overcoming the flaw its self. Most of the list is WoTC with some homebrew added to it. Not to mention that I specifically chose the ones I did because they fit the attitude of a Warlock and aren't difficult to use or too hindering on the character while at the same time providing the bonus feats.

Dandwiki is a horrible, horrible site full of terribly balanced classes, races, feats, and whatever else. It's one source for homebrew I'd almost never consider. Although I haven't looked too closely at the flaws list, I wouldn't trust them to be any more balanced than the other things on the site.


The fact is Bards gain extra spells based on charisma and this isn't a stated fact,


Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

:smalltongue:

[TurkeyBlizzard]

I think Warlock is a great class for a new player; it can do something in every scenario without lots of system mastery, and grants enough powah! that it isn't totally defenseless. Not as good as Dragon Fire Adept maybe, but if anything simpler.

I also love the flavor of Warlocks, but I find them to be underpowered. Instead I typically roll a Wizard with Fiery Burst reserve feat (Complete Mage), which, if I'm correct has a better damage progression (albeit shorter range and can't be modified like EB).

Where is Dragon Fire Adept from? I must have missed the post that said its source material.

[Kaje]

DFAs are from Dragon Magic.

[Socratov]

just to put some emphasis on the role of the warlock in a party, It's actually kind of the same as the bard. he gets decent offensive capability (bard with weapons, Warlock with EB), coupled with spells/spellcasting like capability.
You are both jacks of all trades, and masters of none. The difference between the bard and you is the bard can buff the party, you can buff yourself better then any bard could buff any party. You are better on the offensive side then the bard, though worse in the skillmonkey department (solvable by picking the right invocations and having a high int stat, also, picking human as a race isn't a bad start).

Also, while eldritch spear tricks you into thinking you will be an awesome siper (250 ft. away, eat that *female dog*), you won't get spot as a class skill, so you won't be albe to see what you hit, or where to shoot. When you are about to pick invocations, pick invocations that give you options when eldritch blast sin't cutting the cookie. A few of the best are: Vitriolic blast, Voracious dispelling (until you get it's big brother), fell flight and frozen spiked hentai tentacles of forced intrusion (or as WoTC called it: Chilling tentacles).

Have fun :)

[Psyren]

Note that Warlocks have two more advantages over Bards;

- Can craft any magic item in the game
- Can reliably make UMD checks in combat (take 10)

Bards can destroy them in terms of damage output, and they get way better PrCs, but base class vs. base class Warlocks bring a ton of utility to the table.

[Socratov]

i don't know if bards destroy warlock in damage output, and the bard has more options for PrC, but the warlock has only 1 worth noting, and 1 really powerful :)

to compare I should see them pitted against each other... (both in pure version and with a PrC) to make a decision...

[MeeposFire]

i don't know if bards destroy warlock in damage output, and the bard has more options for PrC, but the warlock has only 1 worth noting, and 1 really powerful :)

to compare I should see them pitted against each other... (both in pure version and with a PrC) to make a decision...

Let me put it this way a bard could have +4 from levels+1 mwk horn+1spell+1feat (SoH)+1itemX2feat (words of creation)=16 which can be 16d6 sonic damage on every attack (which works with haste and other attack granters). This is in addition to singing standard song of courage which could be a +16 to hit and damage on top of that. Both of those are on the entire party as well. That is no rules nonsense or shenanigans. The warlock will need to use some more shady interpretations in order to equal that and it will never have the party boost nor can he get as many attacks (glaive is limited to the number of attacks you can make in BAB and you can't apply haste and stuff like that so it is much more limited in how many attacks it can do).

By the way this is basic optimization. Those with books can get even higher if they try.

[Psyren]

What's more - unlike the Artificer, the Warlock's items are arcane/divine, meaning you can pass them out to casting party members that don't have UMD.

[tyckspoon]

Let me put it this way a bard could have +4 from levels+1 mwk horn+1spell+1feat (SoH)+1itemX2feat (words of creation)=16 which can be 16d6 sonic damage on every attack (which works with haste and other attack granters). This is in addition to singing standard song of courage which could be a +16 to hit and damage on top of that. Both of those are on the entire party as well. That is no rules nonsense or shenanigans. The warlock will need to use some more shady interpretations in order to equal that and it will never have the party boost nor can he get as many attacks (glaive is limited to the number of attacks you can make in BAB and you can't apply haste and stuff like that so it is much more limited in how many attacks it can do).

By the way this is basic optimization. Those with books can get even higher if they try.

No, that's pretty much as high as Inspire Courage gets, and it is using a somewhat unclear interpretation- specifically, what modifiers are actually doubled by Words of Creation. Book of Exalted Deeds implies that it's just the base value that gets changed. I would rule that it's base from levels + any always-on effects (so Song of the Heart, basically) and then the various modifiers go on after that doubling. The Badge of Valor certainly can't be doubled, because it's an effect that gets added to an existing Inspire Courage performance, so it's not in operation at the time Words of Creation gets applied.

[Psyren]

Is DFI included in that calculation? Slippers of Battledancing?

[Soranar]

1rst, here's an optimized warlock example I built a while ago

Race: Human
Alignment: neutral evil (necessary for assasin but you can ask to have that waived by your DM)

STATS (32 pts)
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 14

2 flaws (or remove obtain familiar + improved familiar)

This assumes psionic feats are allowed, again you can just drop them and the flaws if not.

1 Factotum Able Learner, Spell Hand,Wild Talent, Point blank shot
2 Warlock
3 Warlock Psionic Shot
4 Warlock
5 Warlock deceive item
6 Assassin Obtain Familiar
7 Assassin uncanny dodge
8 Assassin
9 Eldritch Theurge Improved Familiar (Hellhound)
10 Eldritch Theurge
11 Arcane Trickster
12 Arcane Trickster Greater Psionic Shot
13 Arcane Trickster
14 Arcane Trickster
15 Arcane Trickster Mortal Bane (or practiced spellcaster: warlock, if your DM allows it to progress your eldritch blast)
16 Arcane Trickster
17 Arcane Trickster
18 Arcane Trickster Knowledge Devotion (at this point I you afford to put enough skillpoints in the 6 knowledges required to get a decent bonus)
19 Arcane Trickster
20 Arcane Trickster

Eldritch theurge is a dual progression class that requires arcane spells level 2 (from assassin) and 2d6 eldritch blast

with mage hand and assassin spellcasting you qualify for arcane trickster use able learner and the high INT to fill in the skillpoints required

Build Tricks for optimal damage:

-Iajutsu focus (takes a move action to draw a weapon, eldritch blast is only a standard action so you can draw a weapon then shoot someone)

-psionic shot (and the greater version) would only work on the first round of battle but untyped damage is pretty useful and it basically doubles your damage at early levels

-Unfortunately you only cast as a warlock level 16 so your eldritch blast is 7d6 by level 18 but you do get several interesting invocations by that point,you can always use a staff or a wand (with deceive item) and you have assassin spellcasting to further your options.

-sneak attack damage is also 7d6 (having access to invisibility all day, not hard to succeed at those and there's always the arcane trickster ability)

-A Factotum's cunning insight gives one of the few ways of adding a STAT bonus to an eldritch blast's damage, even with only 2 inspiration points you get to do it twice an encounter (or you can use it on the to hit roll if the creature is especially hard to hit but that's unlikely with touch attacks)

-As mentioned above, don't bother with a weapon. You are a weapon. You can shape your eldritch blast into a lightsaber if you feel like it (eldritch glaive shape found in dragon magic).

concerning the Warlock vs Bards thread.

-Warlocks get their best (and unique) ability at level 4 (take 10 on UMD). At this point, they can often become more versatile than a bard due to this feature alone. (mostly depends on your DM letting you get the items you need mind).

-Bards scale better than warlocks without multiclassing, their inspire courage ability can be modified in various ways using feats/ACF/substitution levels while warlocks only get stronger by not taking warlock levels (and using Prestige classes) so it's not really a fair comparison. Bards get a lot of love from splatbooks (like sublime chord).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1rst, here's an optimized warlock example I built a while ago

Race: Human
Alignment: neutral evil (necessary for assasin but you can ask to have that waived by your DM)

STATS (32 pts)
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 14

2 flaws (or remove obtain familiar + improved familiar)

This assumes psionic feats are allowed, again you can just drop them and the flaws if not.

1 Factotum Able Learner, Spell Hand,Wild Talent, Point blank shot
2 Warlock
3 Warlock Psionic Shot
4 Warlock
5 Warlock deceive item
6 Assassin Obtain Familiar
7 Assassin uncanny dodge
8 Assassin
9 Eldritch Theurge Improved Familiar (Hellhound)
10 Eldritch Theurge
11 Arcane Trickster
12 Arcane Trickster Greater Psionic Shot
13 Arcane Trickster
14 Arcane Trickster
15 Arcane Trickster Mortal Bane (or practiced spellcaster: warlock, if your DM allows it to progress your eldritch blast)
16 Arcane Trickster
17 Arcane Trickster
18 Arcane Trickster Knowledge Devotion (at this point I you afford to put enough skillpoints in the 6 knowledges required to get a decent bonus)
19 Arcane Trickster
20 Arcane Trickster

Eldritch theurge is a dual progression class that requires arcane spells level 2 (from assassin) and 2d6 eldritch blast

with mage hand and assassin spellcasting you qualify for arcane trickster use able learner and the high INT to fill in the skillpoints required

Build Tricks for optimal damage:

-Iajutsu focus (takes a move action to draw a weapon, eldritch blast is only a standard action so you can draw a weapon then shoot someone)

-psionic shot (and the greater version) would only work on the first round of battle but untyped damage is pretty useful and it basically doubles your damage at early levels

-Unfortunately you only cast as a warlock level 16 so your eldritch blast is 7d6 by level 18 but you do get several interesting invocations by that point,you can always use a staff or a wand (with deceive item) and you have assassin spellcasting to further your options.

-sneak attack damage is also 7d6 (having access to invisibility all day, not hard to succeed at those and there's always the arcane trickster ability)

-A Factotum's cunning insight gives one of the few ways of adding a STAT bonus to an eldritch blast's damage, even with only 2 inspiration points you get to do it twice an encounter (or you can use it on the to hit roll if the creature is especially hard to hit but that's unlikely with touch attacks)

-As mentioned above, don't bother with a weapon. You are a weapon. You can shape your eldritch blast into a lightsaber if you feel like it (eldritch glaive shape found in dragon magic).

concerning the Warlock vs Bards thread.

-Warlocks get their best (and unique) ability at level 4 (take 10 on UMD). At this point, they can often become more versatile than a bard due to this feature alone. (mostly depends on your DM letting you get the items you need mind).

-Bards scale better than warlocks without multiclassing, their inspire courage ability can be modified in various ways using feats/ACF/substitution levels while warlocks only get stronger by not taking warlock levels (and using Prestige classes) so it's not really a fair comparison. Bards get a lot of love from splatbooks (like sublime chord).

Better one would be:

Warlock6/Mindbender1/Binder1/HFW3/Legacy Champion9

Invocations/EB as a 17th level Warlock, with +20d6 Hellfire Blast on top of it. Mindsight gives you the ability to be an Early Warning System. You're probably going to spend a few on Extra Invocation to pick up some of the better Lesser and Greater invocations out there. Throw on Glaive and do over 100d6 damage/round. Should be about enough to insta-gib anything you run across. Ignores all energy resistances/immunities (or, if you want to ignore SR instead, you use the rarely-resisted Acid flavor).

That's without going into Maximize/Empower/Quicken SLA for further damage boosting.

[Kaje]

Better one would be:

Warlock6/Mindbender1/Binder1/HFW3/Legacy Champion9
HFW requires 12 ranks in Knowledge(The Planes).

[Psyren]

@ Soranar - for an optimized Psionic Shot build, you should always (a) go with Hidden Talent over Wild Talent for the bonus power (which you can use thanks to your 14 cha), or (b) start with a psionic race so that you don't need HT at all. In this case it's a wash, since the bonus feat you gain from going human is used for WT, so you may as well start with a psionic race like Xeph for the dex bonus or Elan for the immortality and useful tricks.