clarification on silence

[Crow]

If the spell Silence is cast on an unattended object near a spellcaster, does a spellcaster within the silenced area still receive a saving throw to resist the effect, as if it had been cast on them?

[Jon_Dahl]

If the spell Silence is cast on an unattended object near a spellcaster, does a spellcaster within the silenced area still receive a saving throw to resist the effect, as if it had been cast on them?

I've wondered the same myself, a good question!
IMO you always get a saving throw, no matter how you cast the spell. It must be like this, I'm sure!

[Shadowknight12]

The creature only gets a saving throw if it is the target of the spell. That's why Silence is a defensive spell, rather than an offensive one. You don't cast Silence on the enemy mage, you cast it on the rogue that is going to sneak up behind him, to make her stealthier and protect her from [Sonic] attacks.

EDIT: And preventing the enemy mage from casting back at her once she "surprises" him.

[tyckspoon]

No, they don't. Thus the somewhat-popular tactic of casting Silence on a rock and throwing it at the caster you wish to annoy (annoy because this method allows them to simply move out of the Silence area and cast anyway. Which leads to the more complicated method of Silencing your familiar or a party member and having them ready action to follow around the caster.. or sticking some Sovereign Glue on that rock before you throw it at the enemy. :smallamused:) The main weakness to this is that you end up with a single, non-mobile point of origin of the Silence; unless you are in a very small area, the creatures you want silent can just move away. The only completely reliable way to stick the spell on somebody is to cast it directly on them.

[gorfnab]

The only completely reliable way to stick the spell on somebody is to cast it directly on them.
Or be a Whisper Gnome Rogue with the feats Magic in the Blood and Silencing Strike.

[JoeYounger]

Do we have a WoTC response on this? The spell clearly says "Will negates".

It also says that an unwilling creature receives a save. There's no reason to think that only applies to a person the spell is being centered on.

further more under the text for emanation (The type of range the spell has) it says basically that its the same as a burst, but its a continual effect. If you look at burst it says that it "affects whatever it catches in its area" implying that they are targets of the spell. If you drop down to the saving throw section it says "Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description define which types of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell works." Then it explains for negates "The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw."

Also, if you look thru the illusion spells there are a ton of examples which could very well be said to set a president that Illusion spells (such as silence) give saving throws to everyone who is affected by the spell. None of the other illusion spells (like hallucinatory terrain) list targets, but everyone gets a save against the spell who interacts with it.

Idk, if I were a DM I'd never let a level 3 wizard silence a level 40 fighter who can resist a epic wizards disintegrate just because he cast the spell on a rock and stood next to the fighter. It just doesnt make sense.


Edit: added clarification

[Flickerdart]

It makes perfect sense. The Silence spell in this case is not affecting the Fighter, but the air around him. He doesn't get a save because he is not a target of the spell - he can still try to speak, the air just doesn't carry his words. However, if the spell was cast on him, rather than next to him, he would be able to resist the magical effect, because it's now actually affecting him.

[Vandicus]

No saving throw. This is, quite frankly, how its always worked. If the spell text isn't convincing enough, I can't really say much besides that the silence spell works that way in D&D novels and that it doesn't make sense for any creature that the spell comes to encompass can make a will save to negate the spell. So the epic level cleric casts silence in a room of twenty people, centering silence on himself. Odds would then be that his silence spell has no effect?

[Ernir]

In a recent battle, a few low level mooks managed to almost completely lock down our two high level spellcasters with readied actions and wands of Silence. It was... absurdly effective.


It just doesnt make sense.
Welcome to 3.5!

[JoeYounger]

It makes perfect sense. The Silence spell in this case is not affecting the Fighter, but the air around him. He doesn't get a save because he is not a target of the spell - he can still try to speak, the air just doesn't carry his words. However, if the spell was cast on him, rather than next to him, he would be able to resist the magical effect, because it's now actually affecting him.

The spell doesnt affect the air. Its an Illusion (glamer) spell. Id agree with you if it were a transmutation spell, but it isnt.

[JoeYounger]

No saving throw. This is, quite frankly, how its always worked. If the spell text isn't convincing enough, I can't really say much besides that the silence spell works that way in D&D novels and that it doesn't make sense for any creature that the spell comes to encompass can make a will save to negate the spell. So the epic level cleric casts silence in a room of twenty people, centering silence on himself. Odds would then be that his silence spell has no effect?

In dnd novels you can also cast light on a BBEG's eyes to blind him.

The current system is set up with saving throws to allow people to negate spells that would be cast on them.

And if hes an epic cleric his silence should work on the room, because it should be heightened, and have a high save that the typical room shouldnt be able to make.

[Flickerdart]

And if hes an epic cleric his silence should work on the room, because it should be heightened, and have a high save that the typical room shouldnt be able to make.
Natural 20 doesn't care about your save.

[Yuki Akuma]

The spell doesnt affect the air. Its an Illusion (glamer) spell. Id agree with you if it were a transmutation spell, but it isnt.

Sure, except no that's completely wrong.


Glamer
A glamer spell changes a subject’s sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Glamers actually change a subject. They're not Mind-Affecting, very specifically. They cause actual changes.

Figments are the ones that create false sensations.

[JoeYounger]

Natural 20 doesn't care about your save.

Im honestly not sure what this is supposed to mean. The game is set up so a natural 20 is an auto success. That has nothing to do with a level 4 cleric being able to silence a room full of epic leve toons. The game is built to have progression in it. and there shouldnt be ANYTHING a level 4 cleric can do to stop a level 40 wizard from casting any of his spells.

[Yuki Akuma]

Im honestly not sure what this is supposed to mean. The game is set up so a natural 20 is an auto success. That has nothing to do with a level 4 cleric being able to silence a room full of epic leve toons. The game is built to have progression in it. and there shouldnt be ANYTHING a level 4 cleric can do to stop a level 40 wizard from casting any of his spells.

It means that if a level 9000 Cleric casts Silence on himself and walks into a room with 20 cats in it, if a successful save negates the entire spell, someone will roll a 20 and negate it.

Which is utterly ridiculous and not at all how the spell is meant to work.

[Diarmuid]

In dnd novels you can also cast light on a BBEG's eyes to blind him.

The current system is set up with saving throws to allow people to negate spells that would be cast on them.

And if hes an epic cleric his silence should work on the room, because it should be heightened, and have a high save that the typical room shouldnt be able to make.

Joe, have you looked at the spell Flare. It does exactly what you're describing.

And while the spell says "Will Negates"...the rest of that line is also important "; see text or none (object)".

The spell clearly explains how it works as others have said. There is no need for a WotC clarification and the lack of one in a FAQ or some other such medium speaks to the general understanding of the spell and a lack of widespread confusion.

[JoeYounger]

Sure, except no that's completely wrong.



Glamers actually change a subject. They're not Mind-Affecting, very specifically. They cause actual changes.

Figments are the ones that create false sensations.

You have a very good point, I overlooked that. Im just saying, Id still like an official ruling from WotC for this, because the spell is still effecting the characters ability to speak. You can say it changes the air to where anything said into it doesnt make noise, but its still effecting his speech when he talks into the spell.

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, regard Invisibility.

It is also an Illusion (Glamer) that offers a Will save to negate.

Does this mean anyone looking at the invisible Rogue gets to make a Will save to see him?

[Diarmuid]

Wall of Thorns does a lot more than not let you speak and that doesnt even have a saving throw.

Flame shield damages you if you hit someone with it on...no save.

If you specifically target someone with Silence, they get a save. If you create an area of silence around an item and then bring it near them, they are effectively silenced. They can still talk, but the sounds just dont carry.

This is how the spell is written and widely understood to work.

If you are that intent on getting some kind of response from WotC you should probably send them an email or something.

Edit - Yuki, that's exactly the kind of example I was searching for, well done.

[Yuki Akuma]

Not that they'll reply. This is an old edition they don't support anymore.


Edit - Yuki, that's exactly the kind of example I was searching for, well done.

*bows*

Illusion is my favourite school of magic in D&D 3.5. I know exactly how the rules work~

[JoeYounger]

It means that if a level 9000 Cleric casts Silence on himself and walks into a room with 20 cats in it, if a successful save negates the entire spell, someone will roll a 20 and negate it.

Which is utterly ridiculous and not at all how the spell is meant to work.

No, that means that if a level 9000 cleric cast silence on himself and walks into a room with 20 cats in it, then ONE of those cats can meow. Will negates means that subject isnt affected by the spell.



And while the spell says "Will Negates"...the rest of that line is also important "; see text or none (object)".

The spell clearly explains how it works as others have said. There is no need for a WotC clarification and the lack of one in a FAQ or some other such medium speaks to the general understanding of the spell and a lack of widespread confusion.

Yes, the see text explains the rules for casting on unattended magic items, and the none (object) is for non-attended mundane objects.


****, maybe you kids are right, I'm far from perfect, but Ive been playing this game for a long time and my experience is that when a spell affects a player, they get a save.

[JoeYounger]

Also, regard Invisibility.

It is also an Illusion (Glamer) that offers a Will save to negate.

Does this mean anyone looking at the invisible Rogue gets to make a Will save to see him?

Touche' salesman. Touche'

[Keld Denar]

Im just saying, Id still like an official ruling from WotC for this, because the spell is still effecting the characters ability to speak.

Well, WotC has never clarified this (or we'd know about it), and you won't get any answers out of WotC, since they stopped supporting 3.5 about 3 years and change ago.

Lots of spells have indirect effects that directly affect a foe. If I use Control Weather to change the windstorm to a tornado, you are affected by the tornado, not the spell.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah yeah, we'll get off your lawn now.

I've been playing this particular edition for eleven years. I think I know how it works, dear. :smallwink:

[Diarmuid]

Only when the spell spefically states they get a save. The spell states when the "will negates" comes into play.

Any other ruling is an interpretation which your're more than entitled to, especially if you're the one DMing.

[Keld Denar]

I've been playing this particular edition for eleven years. I think I know how it works, dear. :smallwink:

You know, I used to think that too...then I realize that in my old age of 27, my memory isn't quite what it used to be, and even I can be wrong sometimes...

[Yuki Akuma]

You know, I used to think that too...then I realize that in my old age of 27, my memory isn't quite what it used to be, and even I can be wrong sometimes...

Oh, sure, but everyone knows I'm infallible. :smallwink:

Except the times when I'm wrong.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, sure, but everyone knows I'm infallible. :smallwink:

Except the times when I'm wrong.
What if you were wrong about being wrong?

[Yuki Akuma]

http://thecheesegrater.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/divide-by-zero-001.jpg

[Fitz10019]

Also, regard Invisibility.

It is also an Illusion (Glamer) that offers a Will save to negate.

Does this mean anyone looking not looking at the invisible Rogue gets to make a Will save to see him?

FTFY

Anyone ever silence a tanglefoot bag?

[Yuki Akuma]

FTFY

Never. Ever. Do that.

I am not kidding. Don't.

[JoeYounger]

Never. Ever. Do that.

I am not kidding. Don't.

Little touchy today?

[TwylyghT]

I just wanted to say, that I consider sticking casters with silenced harpoons *hilarious*

[Cruiser1]

All high level casters should carry around a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicSilent), in case enemies attempt to silence them in this matter. They're dirt cheap too, e.g. 11K allows you to cast spells up to 6th level (e.g. Disintegrate, Teleport, etc).

[KnowledgeIsAll]

I've wondered the same myself, a good question!
IMO you always get a saving throw, no matter how you cast the spell. It must be like this, I'm sure!

there are many spells that declines saving throws: Evard's Black Tentacles or Ray of enfeeblement. it is the systems way to give the spellcaster some spells that is still useable.

now for the silence simply Divide the text for greater understanding:

Area / object: Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object.

creature: The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not.
This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.[

if you where allowed a saving throw: the description says nothing of it, when you enter and fail are you then silence for 1 min/lvl and follows you outside the area??? i think not. at least it dos not mention it in the description.

Zone of Truth has a specific text: Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it)...Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects...
you can still use hands for magic.
it is like two spells in one like many other spells.
the greater version of this spell is "Antimagic Field"

[Frosty]

Dude, did you take Spell Focus (Necromancy) or something?

[KnowledgeIsAll]

Dude, did you take Spell Focus (Necromancy) or something?

Yes im highly trained in all manner of magic schools. :smallwink: