[3.5] Kingmaker in Eberron

[Antariuk]

Greetings Giants,

So while toying with some ideas for an Eberron game, I though of playing Pathfinder's Kingmaker in Eberron. The idea isn't new, I know that, but from what I've read so far most people tried it with Q'barra as where the action takes place. Now I would instead go to Xen'drik. Why? First, its outside the power stuggle in Khorvaire. I have a hard time believing that existing powers sit still and wait while yet another new nation is declared among them. Fragile cold-war balance or not, someone will try to prevent this. Second, Xen'drik holds a lot of secrets and maybe answers to core mysteries/questions of the setting, like the warforged origins or the Quori invasion. Having possible access to answers or ancient powers would give a new Xen'drik nation considerable power and maybe even let them take part in Khorvaires game of thrones without being as vulnerable as other core nations due to simply being on a remote continent.

Other reasons I came up with:

- Stormreach makes a good frontier city where you can get supplies from in the beginning, and it'll make an interesting competitor in later gameplay. With it being the only reasonable settlement characters will have access to, it also provides wilderness feeling. Its not one possible source, its the only source.
- Siberys Dragonshards could provide some sort of income right from the beginning and can lead to all sorts of future contacts/encounters/power building.
- Giant ruins. The Secrets of Xen'drik supplement literally says they can be found everywhere, so there is plenty of locations characters can explore, loot or maybe even transform into functional buildings again.
- Dragonmarked Houses. If the players are successful in establishing a settlement, I imagine almost all dragonmarkes houses to knock on their door for some contracts because no matter what this new nation looks like, from the houses' perspective it will be much more attractive than dealing with those pirate lords in Stormreach.

My concern now is that Xen'drik, as written, is a place too challenging for beginning characters. Of course I can change all encounters into somewhat appropriate CRs, but then question will be why nobody else settled down here long time ago. Also, I would like to use as much materials as possible as-written. The traveler's curse, giant tribes, drows (expecially the Sulatar) and all the wonders of Xen'drik are cool but I am unsure if they can fill the sandbox of Kingmaker without a ridiculous bodycount on the party.

Has anyone done this idea before? Am I overthinking this? I would love to hear your opinions.

[MeeposFire]

Start the low level adventures in town. There is a lot to do in Stormreach and you can make them lower level enemies. Then they can go into Xendrik proper when ready. You can also do adventures for them to get to Xendrik while starting in Khorvaire.

[Coidzor]

There's a few good reasons why establishing a kingdom on Xen'drik is a very, very bad idea.

The first is the magical curses that the dragons laid over the area after/during the destruction of the giant civilization in order to prevent the giants from ever being able to establish a new kingdom or civilization.

The second is the after-effects on time, such that time and space are distorted, which causes a lot of problems for creating a kingdom because you're going to need to be able to move resources from one place to the other reliably.

The third is that the dragons are still paying attention to Xen'drik. Not as much as they once did, and so there's a lot of exiles & runaway dragons there playing petty god to whatever humanoid tribes they can amass or just living as feral beasts, but building a new kingdom is going to attract the attention of the few dragons there that still pay heed, and successfully establishing a nation so close to their doorstep is going to attract the attentions of Argonessen.

You don't want the attention of Argonessen.

So, you're going to have to depart pretty extensively from the baseline assumptions of Eberron to have this be remotely possible.

Especially the whole immigration thing in order to get people to populate your nation unless you're trying to unite the drow tribes.

About the only thing I can think of there is getting charged by the Cyrian Prince to cut out a place for them from the remaining wilds and the characters deciding Xen'drik it is... Though they're already working on something in the less populated areas of Breland from what I recall.

[Antariuk]

Start the low level adventures in town. There is a lot to do in Stormreach and you can make them lower level enemies. Then they can go into Xendrik proper when ready. You can also do adventures for them to get to Xendrik while starting in Khorvaire.

I had similar thoughts about beginning Kingmaker. Regarding Stormreach, I think it depends somewhat on the distance between it and the new nation. The closer, the more reaction from existing powers I would expect.

Having the party go adventuring in Khorvaire before going to Xen'drik would bring several advantages.... First, contacts to Dragonmarked Houses that can be used for later support. Second, something that would come up in later gameplay, if the player's nation is successful there will be some reactions from Khorvaire. If the party has been there before, they would at least know where this letter or that strange ambassador is coming from. If characters are deeply routed within one of the five nations, it's possible that they bring aspects of Khorvaires conflicts down to Xen'drik and thereby adding some spice to the game.



There's a few good reasons why establishing a kingdom on Xen'drik is a very, very bad idea.

The first is the magical curses that the dragons laid over the area after/during the destruction of the giant civilization in order to prevent the giants from ever being able to establish a new kingdom or civilization.

As you said - the giants... IIRC, nowhere is mentioned that rising civilisations from people not native to Xen'drik have suffered from this curse, and if you think yout it... Stormreach and Dar Qat both are prospering cities build by people from somewhere else. At least they show civilisation works in some places, I'd say.



The second is the after-effects on time, such that time and space are distorted, which causes a lot of problems for creating a kingdom because you're going to need to be able to move resources from one place to the other reliably.

The exact effect of the Traveler's Curse is left to the DM, and I wouldn't want to use it in a way that makes regular travelling completely unreliable. To me, it should be something that happens sometimes, and maybe there are even ways to circumvent it. 'Secrets of Xen'drik' says that if you are focused, strong-minded and have a good idea where you want to go, its less likely that you'll get cought by the curse, so there already are hooks player's can investigate.

Regarding Kingmaker, I could think of a sideplot dealing with this, like uncovering a series of ancient guardian stones that the players can collect and create safe routes with. In making it a limited ressource, you would also add some drama when the nation's expansion is on the table :)


The third is that the dragons are still paying attention to Xen'drik. Not as much as they once did, and so there's a lot of exiles & runaway dragons there playing petty god to whatever humanoid tribes they can amass or just living as feral beasts, but building a new kingdom is going to attract the attention of the few dragons there that still pay heed, and successfully establishing a nation so close to their doorstep is going to attract the attentions of Argonessen.

You don't want the attention of Argonessen.

Good point, kinda missed that one.
I would challenge the assumption that a nation in Xen'drik is closer to Argonessen in terms of space, but the point of dragons paying more attention to the Land of Ruin is a good one.

With many people treating Argonessen as Epic Level in Eberron, my solution would be to make most dragons solo encounters, with every dragon being a master of its own, and Argonessen coming later into the game when the player's nation has risen to a considerable power level.



So, you're going to have to depart pretty extensively from the baseline assumptions of Eberron to have this be remotely possible.

That is hyperbole in my account. You have to depart from the extent of some assumptions, regarding a place which's details are mostly left to the DM anyway. With so many materials focussing on Khorvaire, there is pretty little what I proposed so far that would alter any of Eberron's foundations. Although I have to admit I never used Argonessens so far and just read the materials, so maybe it's a different story when you finally sit at the table.



Especially the whole immigration thing in order to get people to populate your nation unless you're trying to unite the drow tribes.

About the only thing I can think of there is getting charged by the Cyrian Prince to cut out a place for them from the remaining wilds and the characters deciding Xen'drik it is... Though they're already working on something in the less populated areas of Breland from what I recall.

Again, good point. Getting settlers that are not pirates and outcasts from Khorvaire could be somewhat of a challenge in Xen'drik. As Kingmaker has some extended downtimes between adventures, I imagine you can do the same thing here and have the players sail to Khorvaire to advertise themselves.

Thanks for the interesting opinions so far!

[MeeposFire]

The giants and dragons were very friendly for a long time. When the giants were going to unleash their super magics a second time that is when the dragons reacted it was not because of the giants having a powerful magical civilization (well directly anyway). A civilization that does not appear to be trying to recreate the cataclysmic magic the giants used should be safe barring unforeseen issues like an interpretation of the draconic prophesy.

[Greenish]

Stormreach and Dar Qat both are prospering cities build by people from somewhere else. At least they show civilisation works in some places, I'd say.There have been several cities by older civilizations on the place where Stormreach now stands since the time of the giants.

All of them were mysteriously wiped out. Civilization works for some time, would be more accurate.


Of course, it doesn't have to last that long to make the module feasible.

[Coidzor]

The giants and dragons were very friendly for a long time. When the giants were going to unleash their super magics a second time that is when the dragons reacted it was not because of the giants having a powerful magical civilization (well directly anyway). A civilization that does not appear to be trying to recreate the cataclysmic magic the giants used should be safe barring unforeseen issues like an interpretation of the draconic prophesy.

A civilization rising on top of the ruins of the giants & able to glean what the dragons had left is, however, something that can be interpreted as a threat, either to the draconic prophecy, keeping Xen'drik in ruin, or actually retrieving the lost lore for realz that the dragons have made verboten to non-dragons, because right now expeditions to Xen'drik that seriously plumb the interior are highly rare & relatively low-key affairs, but any kingdom that expands to real size is going to encounter a good bit of sites that there's things best left buried in more ways than one.

As far as I understand it, Xen'drik is sort of half-way and a smidge to the west between Argonessen & Khorvaire. But I may be grossly misremembering it.

[Thyrian]

The third is that the dragons are still paying attention to Xen'drik. Not as much as they once did, and so there's a lot of exiles & runaway dragons there playing petty god to whatever humanoid tribes they can amass or just living as feral beasts, but building a new kingdom is going to attract the attention of the few dragons there that still pay heed, and successfully establishing a nation so close to their doorstep is going to attract the attentions of Argonessen.

You don't want the attention of Argonessen.

Could not stop laughing for 5 minutes from the italic remark. If you want to do Kingmaker with a 'twist' in it go Lhazaar principalities, 'kings' rise and fall all the time there, it's quite likely a proper kingdom could be established with the rest of the continent having a cold-war and not caring what the hell the damn sea pirates are doing as long as they keep their nose out of our business.

[Greenish]

As far as I understand it, Xen'drik is sort of half-way and a smidge to the west between Argonessen & Khorvaire. But I may be grossly misremembering it.http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1087/eberronworld4ac.jpg

[Antariuk]

There have been several cities by older civilizations on the place where Stormreach now stands since the time of the giants.

All of them were mysteriously wiped out. Civilization works for some time, would be more accurate.


Of course, it doesn't have to last that long to make the module feasible.

I immediately thought of a second campaign, set a hundret years or so in the future, where your players end up investigating this mysterious failed project on Xen'drik. Some say the empty, haunted city still exists and holds treasures and materials that were intended to build up a whole new nation :D


Could not stop laughing for 5 minutes from the italic remark. If you want to do Kingmaker with a 'twist' in it go Lhazaar principalities, 'kings' rise and fall all the time there, it's quite likely a proper kingdom could be established with the rest of the continent having a cold-war and not caring what the hell the damn sea pirates are doing as long as they keep their nose out of our business.

I like it, definitely a good way if you want to make a pirate Kingmaker! You could combine it with elemtns from the Savage Tide AP or Freeport (always wanted to have a reason to buy the Freeport book for Pathfinder)

Actually, thinking about the pirate angle, you could combine it easily with my Xen'drik idea. Like the players being send there by pirate lords and not some "real" officials. Making the first city they build a port - for pirates, of course (which can lead to a Casablance style city and end up being a competitor for Stormreach this way).


http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1087/eberronworld4ac.jpg

The map shows it, if Xen'drik would still have all of its land mass, it would be the biggest continent of them all (maybe it still is?). As big as it is, being on Xen'drik is kinda like being under the radar - from Khorvaire's perspective. And even with dragons keeping an eye on it, its just huge and chances are, there will actually be a nation build up when the first report goes to Argonessen. No way that dragons cover each and every inch of the Land of Ruin with intel... at least for me :)

[Greenish]

As big as it is, being on Xen'drik is kinda like being under the radar - from Khorvaire's perspective.Given the keen interest of most of Khorvaire's powers on Xen'Drik (as evidenced by the continuos expeditions), I really wouldn't say "under the radar".


And even with dragons keeping an eye on it, its just huge and chances are, there will actually be a nation build up when the first report goes to Argonessen. No way that dragons cover each and every inch of the Land of Ruin with intel... at least for me :)The Chamber doesn't have to cover "each and every inch"… you can't build a bloody nation without having huge number of people know about it. Chamber will hear of it when you start recruiting people to move there, at latest.

[Antariuk]

Given the keen interest of most of Khorvaire's powers on Xen'Drik (as evidenced by the continuos expeditions), I really wouldn't say "under the radar".

The Chamber doesn't have to cover "each and every inch"… you can't build a bloody nation without having huge number of people know about it. Chamber will hear of it when you start recruiting people to move there, at latest.

I'd say that depends where you go recruiting... stepping into Sharn, showing a sign with "Building a new nation in Xen'drik. Join now!", than yes, the Chamber will likely know about it by the end of the day. But if you start recruiting discretely from lower ranks, the desperate and the outcasts that no one cares for, I suspect its quite possible to get some crowds together before anyone will really know whats going on. Actually getting them to Xen'drik is indeed an adventure of its own, but hey, that is why we're sitting at the table, right? :)

Don't get me wrong - I can see your point.I just think there will be no real action from Argonessen until the players start to do things like using giant artifacts (like in: several) or casting giant artifacts spells or whatever.
I mean, there is Stormreach and there is Dar Qat, both of these cities being host to some really powerful characters and have some really powerful things going on. Dar Qat has build one of these strange monoliths to control people and they constantly harvest psionic crystals and Stormreach sends out expeditions and is a melting pot for all kinds of treasures collected from Xen'drik. Both of these places haven't been burned down by dragons (yet), so until the players reach a point that surpasses one of the former cities everything should be fine.

[Coidzor]

Storm Reach, at least, is not there to build a kingdom. It's there to be what it is. No idea about Dar Qat, I'll admit, as I hadn't encountered that when I was reading Secrets of Xen'drik.

The inherent expansion in establishing a nation is attention-grabbing & is inherently different from being a "relatively" safe port in the storm.

[Acanous]

and now, next time I play, there will be a billboard outside of Sharn...

Of course, the whole "Settling Xen'drik" thing will be a pirate scam to get free slaves. But hey, it'll be fun :D

[Antariuk]

I noticed something that would be interesting for any Kingmaker game in Eberron, no matter the location: making the services of the Dragonmarked Houses available in your city. Anyone here who already did this, with costs and related city check modifiers for such a building?

[JonRG]

The Cyre angle seems like the best option to me (it's the one I planned on using). Plus, not everyone would be against it.


Karrnath supports the creation of a new homeland for the Cyran Refugees, mostly as a way to provide another headache for Breland. Kaius pays lip service to other efforts at reversing the Cyran diaspora [...] but he'd like nothing more than a pro-Karrnath "New Cyre" that eats up acres of eastern Breland.

Since you mentioned the Cold War, there was a ton of nation-building (less literal than this) back then. Involved international powers didn't so much grind those into the dust as try to mold them into staunch allies. ;)

[Antariuk]

The Cyre angle seems like the best option to me (it's the one I planned on using). Plus, not everyone would be against it.



Since you mentioned the Cold War, there was a ton of nation-building (less literal than this) back then. Involved international powers didn't so much grind those into the dust as try to mold them into staunch allies. ;)

Indeed, recruiting from Cyre refugees would be the most obvious choice (in case you want to do this the more official way). Regarding nation-building, are there any supplements out there which detail this? I don't have "Forge of War", but I could imagine there would be something in it covering this.


By now I see benefits and drawbacks for recruitment like this:

Official recruiting

Drawbacks

- You get attention from everyone, including former mentioned powers like Argonessen.
- You will have to deal with the fact that some powers will conctantly spy on you and, depending on how successful everything goes, will take actions against you or take advantage of something you do.
- It is also possible that rival projects will follow immediately, which would make the situation over in Xen'drik much more dramatic (like access to the beast coastal spots for ports or the best contract from suppliers in Stormreach).

Benefits

- You can ask for help officially, which will cost you something between a sum of money and some "favours" over in Xen'drik, but it will make things a lot easier.
- You can play rivaling parties to make them support you much more than they originally intended.


Unofficial recruiting

Drawbacks

- It will take a lot more time for people to actually gather in Xen'drik.
- You cannot use House Lyrandar or House Orien on a regular base for obvious reasons.
- You have to deal with pirates along the way without alarming any pirate lords or the Brelish Navy.
- You need explanations for mobs of people leaving their homes and moving through the countryside, which involves delusions like a false epidemic plague or a dangerous beast roaming an area of interest, so you have to orchestrate this too.

Benefits

- Potentially, you end up with settlers that are more fierce and determined, because they will be folks that don't have anyting to loose and everything to gain.
- If you manage to survive the first time, you can gather power and ressources to be prepared when word of your little nation finally makes the round. This can be something like collecting huge amounts of Syberis shards to play some market games with House Tharashk or trying to find awesome giant magic and artifacts.



Of course, a lot depends on what counts as official and what doesn't... is asking the elves of Aerenal to help you claiming their ancient home official? Asking the daughters of Sora Kell to provide mercs that are a match to Xen'driks monsters?