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View Full Version : Rolling to Cast Spells: A Useful Alternative, or Potential Trap?



wayfare
2011-08-14, 03:23 PM
All:

I've always wanted to run a D&D game that requires rolling to cast spells, much like Earthdawn. My group doesn't want to transition to 4.0, so I came up with this 3.5 variant rules set as a way to incorporate rolling into spellcasting. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

A Few Notes:

1) I use spellcaster and mage interchangeably -- I don't have a fluffy way of applying this to clerics, so I left them out for the moment. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

2) The descriptions here only go up to character level 10, as that is the limit of the campaign I am running. I believe that these rules can be applied to higher level campaigns, as long as the Spellcastning DCs were modified.

3) Just to make this explicit, this system replaces Vancian casting. You can cast a memorized spell as often as you like, so long as you make the spellcasting roll.

Casting A Spell

To cast a spell, the spellcaster must make a caster-level check with a DC dependent upon the spell level to be cast:

Level 0: DC 15
Level 1: DC 16
Level 2: DC 18
Level 3: DC 21
Level 4: DC 25
Level 5: DC 30

A Mage adds his Intelligence modifier to a caster level check to determine the result.

If the spellcaster is being attacked while casting a spell (regardless if the attack hits or not), the DC to cast the spell increases by 5.


Memorized Spells vs. Ritual Spells

Arcane spellcasters know two different types of spells: Memorized Spells and Ritual Spells.

Memorized Spells are spells that the mage can cast from memory, almost like a reflex. These spells are more or less equivalent to a warrior swinging as word in terms of the effort the mage expends in casting the spell.

Memorized Spells do not require material components or foci (even if these are listed in the spell description). However, a mage cannot add metamagic feats to his memorized spells -- the patterns a mage memorizes to cast a spell are unique, abbreviated versions of ritual spells. Modifying memorized spells with metamagic requires that the spell be "re-written" on the fly, an act too complex for even the most puissant of mortal casters (it is rumored that divine creatures can accomplish this feat).

A spellcaster can only memorize a certain number of spells of each level. (Unlike the Wizard class, this a high Intelligence modifier does not modify this number).

The Mage: Maximum Spells Known
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|2|-|-|-|-
2nd|3|-|-|-|-
3rd|3|1|-|-|-
4th|4|2|-|-|-
5th|4|2|1|-|-
6th|4|3|2|-|-
7th|4|3|2|1|-
8th|4|4|3|2|-
9th|4|4|3|2|1
10th|4|4|4|3|2[/table]

At 1st level, the spellcaster know 2 spells of 1st level. Each time the spellcaster gains access to a new spell level, she gains access to 1 new spell of that level. All other spells are learned through research (see Learning Spells below).

Ritual Spells are spells that a mage has written in his spellbook. While the mage is unable to cast these spells as easily as spells he has memorized, these spells can still be cast through ritual magic.
A ritual spell requires any material components and foci listed in the spell description. Casting the spell is an extended action consisting of 5 caster level checks over a listed period, against the spellcasting DC of the spell. The mage must succeed at 3 of these checks to successfully cast the spell. Even if the Mage earns all 3 successes in his first 3 rolls, the spell still takes the listed duration to complete, and the mage must maintain the spell (ie, if the mage dies or is knocked unconscious or otherwise prevented from casting, the spell fails).
The duration of the spellcasting depends on the level of the spell.

{table=head]Spell Level|Duration|Checks At
1st|1 minute|2 rounds
2nd|5 minutes|1 minute
3rd|10 minutes|2 minutes
4th|1 hour|12 minutes
5th|5 hours|1 hour[/table]

Unlike Memorized spells, a Ritual Spell can have Metamagic feats applied to it. Each metamagic feat applied adds 2 to the Spellcasting DC of the spell. A mage is subject to normal metamagic limitations when enhancing a spell in this way (if the modified spell level exceeds the maximum level you can cast, the spell becomes too difficult for you to cast and fails).

Learning Spells

To learn a spell, the spellcaster must write that spell in his spelbook as a ritual. This is an extended action taking 1 hour and requiring a successful caster level check against the casting DC of the spell.

Once the caster has written his spell in a spell book, he may attempt to memorize that spell. Memorizing a spell requires a number of days of research dependent upon the spell level:

Level 1 = 1 day
Level 2 = 3 days
Level 3 = 5 days
Level 4 = 7 days
Level 5 = 9 days

At the end of each day of research, the mage must make a caster level check. Success indicates that the day counts as a successful day of research. Failure indicates that the day is wasted. Failing 3 times in a row or abandoning research for 3 days cancels all successful days of research.

Once a mage accumulates all successful days of research requires, the spell is added to his list of memorized spells.

Replacing a Spell

Once a mage has memorized his maximum number of spells of a particular level, he can only learn new spells by abandoning a known spell. To abandon a spell, the mage must not cast that spell for a week. At the end of that week, the mage removes that spell from his list of spells memorized. He can then memorize any spell of equivalent level in his spell book, as normal.

Magic Foci (Many Thanks to Shadowlord)

Staffs are magical foci that enhance your spellcasting rolls and allow you to add metamagic effects to your spells.

Staffs can be enchanted with up to a +5 enhancement bonus on spellcasting attempts.
Additionally, staffs can be enhanced with metamagic feats that can be applied to your spells 3 times per day. Each metamagic feat applied to a staff adds to the effective enhancement bonus of the item.

Empower Spell: +3 Bonus
Enlarge Spell: +2
Extend Spell: +2
Heighten Spell 1 Level: +1
Heighten Spell 2 Levels: +2
Heighten Spell 3 Levels: +3
Maximize Spell: +4
Quicken Spell: +5
Silent Spell: +1
Still Spell: +1

Only 1 metamagic feat can be applied to a spell in this way at any individual casting.

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-14, 03:48 PM
I could be mistaken, but ritual magic seems almost worthless by the time you hit 4th level spells. I can't think of many spells that have durations or ranges long enough that they can be effectively used if the takes over an hour to cast them. Espesialy when most spells are going to be cast on the round scale. This is exacerbated by the fact that a Mage can cast a memorized spell as often as they want. Skills don't really work as a limit, they'll either be able to cast reliably (or make themselves cast reliably a-la truenaming) or the class wont be worth while since they can't function as they're intended.

wayfare
2011-08-14, 04:20 PM
I could be mistaken, but ritual magic seems almost worthless by the time you hit 4th level spells. I can't think of many spells that have durations or ranges long enough that they can be effectively used if the takes over an hour to cast them. Espesialy when most spells are going to be cast on the round scale. This is exacerbated by the fact that a Mage can cast a memorized spell as often as they want. Skills don't really work as a limit, they'll either be able to cast reliably (or make themselves cast reliably a-la truenaming) or the class wont be worth while since they can't function as they're intended.

Well, Lesser Planar Binding, Major Creation, Stoneshape, Contact Other Plane, Dominate Person (arguably), Sending (for poor return), Break Enchantment, Mages Private Sanctum, Wall of Stone, Bestow Curse, Animate Dead, Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, Charm Monster, Geas, Scrying, Locate Creature and Remove Curse all extend for substantial periods or generate powerful effects worthy of ritual magic. Just because you cannot teleport instantly or scry at a whim doesn't mean that these effects are less powerful.

The duration is a bit of a burden, I admit. Would something like this work better:

Level 1 = 1 Minute
Level 2 = 2 Minutes
Level 3 = 5 Minutes
Level 4 = 10 Minutes
Level 5 = 20 Minutes

My intention is to reduce the flexibility of spellcasters. Warlocks can use magical effects at will, but the lack of versatility (as in, fewer options via invocations/eldritch blast) brings them down to a manageable level. I'm hoping that this might do the same for arcane casters.

Shadow Lord
2011-08-14, 04:57 PM
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Epsilon Rose
2011-08-14, 05:30 PM
It sort of works for creation (assuming the items are permanent), teleportation and scrying effects and dominate could work if you've already tied the person up, but how are you charming a monster when it has to sit around for 10 minutes while you cast? You can't tie it up since that would invalidate the spell and you can't really disguise your casting and even if a "monster" is liable to sit still for long enough I sincerely doubt it would let you cast at it.

wayfare
2011-08-14, 06:42 PM
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At will typically means "I just do it." Rolling is not at will, rolling implies that you might fail. You know what's at will spellcasting? Vancian spellcasting. However, the 15 minute work day effectively amounts to that, as does spontaneous spellcasting like the sorcerer gets.
Its true that at higher levels, you will mostly or always succeed at lower level magic. But at higher levels, these spells are also less effective.

Now, I might be wrong here, but fixes often screw other classes over. Read ToB -- made the fighter conceptually pointless.

As for broken spells, you get 4 memorized spells of each level. Its a lot, but a damn sight better than being able to cast every spell in the game whenever you want. Its the versatility of having all spells readily available that I am trying to fix, not the spells themselves. Any DM can just rule that those "trouble" spells don't exist in that world.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote.

Its true, at 1st level, you can miss. Typically, around 50% of the time without any optimization. Fighters miss too. It sucks, but spellcasters will live.

As you level up spells get harder. But your lower level spells get easier, so you can cast them more frequently w/o worrying about missing the DC.

So higher level spells are a gamble. But a simple fix -- allow for magical tools that enhance your spellcasting roll. I'll include a section for that.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote.

By weakest form of magic, I assume you mean the rituals. I don't think that they are unusable, but they will require some planning to use. You can't use rituals in combat, thats kind of the point.

As for the problems of magic:

The 15 minute work day is gone
Metamagic can't be used instantly
You have a limited spell list to cast at will, so you cannot do everything

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly problems. You're right, the spellcasting DCs are probably too high. But the ability to reliably cast a few spells outweighs the risks of casting a higher level spell in my mind. That said, I will include something to help with the DCs.

You make some good points. Just chill out a bit. Mocking folks doesn't help.

Shadow Lord
2011-08-14, 07:15 PM
It was a joke, sir. And blasting is the weakest form; no more metamagic pretty much denies Blasters their one thing. They no longer have anything.

wayfare
2011-08-14, 07:24 PM
It was a joke, sir. And blasting is the weakest form; no more metamagic pretty much denies Blasters their one thing. They no longer have anything.

I missed that. I should read deeper into your sarcasm next time :smallbiggrin:

No amount of metamagic would make blasting competitive with domination, scrying, summoning, teleportation, or conjuration based damage spells.

Having the ability to reliably cast blasting spells does allow a mage to contribute to combat when all other (better) options are spent.

Shadow Lord
2011-08-14, 07:32 PM
I missed that. I should read deeper into your sarcasm next time :smallbiggrin:

No amount of metamagic would make blasting competitive with domination, scrying, summoning, teleportation, or conjuration based damage spells.

Having the ability to reliably cast blasting spells does allow a mage to contribute to combat when all other (better) options are spent.

The thing is, you don't. That's the biggest problem; as you level up, you're guaranteed to become less effective, because you won't have any higher level spells that you can reliably use.

wayfare
2011-08-14, 07:45 PM
The thing is, you don't. That's the biggest problem; as you level up, you're guaranteed to become less effective, because you won't have any higher level spells that you can reliably use.

Does the Magical Foci bit I added at the end of the 1st post help out a bit?

jiriku
2011-08-14, 11:20 PM
I too am tentatively concerned about the repeatability of memorized spells. I don't know if it would really be a problem -- which is why I'm concerned. I hate not knowing.

Let's see, what could I do with this.

Long-duration buff spells effectively become chained persistent spells, because you can cast them on every party member and recast them throughout the day as they expire. Sure, there's not quite as convenient because you have to take a few minutes to reapply them throughout the day (like sunscreen, really), and because they'll occasionally wear off right when you need them, but for any spell that lasts 10 min/level, you can probably smear that on the party all day by level 5-6ish without too much inconvenience.

Eagle's splendor sort of becomes a spell tax. Every spellcaster will have it up all the time, because the free +2 on spellcasting checks is desperately needed.

In combat, few spells are reliable enough to trust with your life. For example, let's say a spell-resistant enemy wants to kill you and you plan to hit him with hold person to save your skin. Suppose you have a 60% chance to cast the spell, a 75% chance to beat the enemy's spell resistance, and your opponent is 66% likely to fail his saving throw. Reasonable odds all around? Your odds of success are (0.6 * 0.75 * 0.66 = 0.297) 30%. If the enemy attacks you while you're casting, your odds drop to 17%. Given those odds, it's probably better to run and hide in most fights.

Can spell trigger items like wands and staves be used without chance of failure? They might be a reliable method of tactical spellcasting.

wayfare
2011-08-15, 12:27 AM
I too am tentatively concerned about the repeatability of memorized spells. I don't know if it would really be a problem -- which is why I'm concerned. I hate not knowing.

Let's see, what could I do with this.

Long-duration buff spells effectively become chained persistent spells, because you can cast them on every party member and recast them throughout the day as they expire. Sure, there's not quite as convenient because you have to take a few minutes to reapply them throughout the day (like sunscreen, really), and because they'll occasionally wear off right when you need them, but for any spell that lasts 10 min/level, you can probably smear that on the party all day by level 5-6ish without too much inconvenience.

Eagle's splendor sort of becomes a spell tax. Every spellcaster will have it up all the time, because the free +2 on spellcasting checks is desperately needed.

In combat, few spells are reliable enough to trust with your life. For example, let's say a spell-resistant enemy wants to kill you and you plan to hit him with hold person to save your skin. Suppose you have a 60% chance to cast the spell, a 75% chance to beat the enemy's spell resistance, and your opponent is 66% likely to fail his saving throw. Reasonable odds all around? Your odds of success are (0.6 * 0.75 * 0.66 = 0.297) 30%. If the enemy attacks you while you're casting, your odds drop to 17%. Given those odds, it's probably better to run and hide in most fights.

Can spell trigger items like wands and staves be used without chance of failure? They might be a reliable method of tactical spellcasting.

Magic items would remain unchanged -- UMD for non magical folks, just effort for casters. In terms of fluff, I guess you could say that the device has the spell programmed into it.

The way I imagine things playing out is spellcasters would use their lower level, more reliable spells more often. But, maybe the Spellcasting DC table could use some tweaking (I bow before the power of your math-fu).

Level 1 = DC 15
Level 2 = DC 17
Level 3 = DC 19
Level 4 = DC 22
Level 5 = DC 25

Does that seem a bit better?

As for buffs, I don't have as much of a problem with them. Casters can buff their party with memorized spells if they have the time (and even rituals are not out of the question if you have enough time), but it seems like it would overwhelm your limited spell list very quickly. I see it being easier to make a powerful specialist using this variant, rather than a powerful generalist.