First Factotum, or: My DM has banned me specifically from playing tier 1 & 2 classes

[containscotton]

...Right after our first four sessions (of my first D&D game ever). It's not my fault the SRD sorcerer spell list is so full of broken combos. I mean, transmute rock to mud plus any damage over time in radius spell. Also, everyone wanted me to take more damage spells, and I scoffed and said, "No, what else would the guy with the big sword be for?" Apparently nobody shared my opinion that locking down the bad guys is better than straight damage in a team of five.

Oh whatever. C'est la vie. I wasn't abusing or liberally reading any rules, though, which is what made me sad. D:

So, it's onto the factotum for me. I'd like to play a factotum with the following abilities (in order of priority):

1. Casting lots and lots of spells.
2. Locking down enemies (mundane and magical means).
3. Making skill checks.

Where should I put my ability scores? What feats should I get? Items I should prioritize? I'm currently level 10 (I think...) but I'd like to plan up to level 20. All in-print sources available, according to our DM.

[Shadowknight12]

I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but you should probably sit down with your party and work things out with them, because it sounds like you want to do the exact same thing you got Tiers 1 and 2 banned for. It seems like it's going to head for an encore of the exact same thing. This is the sort of thing best handled OOCly.

[Talya]

What feats should I get?
Boost intelligence as high as you possibly can.

Font of inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) (human bonus feat)
Font of inspiration (1)
Font of inspiration (3)
Font of inspiration (6)
Font of inspiration (9)
If flaws are allowed, take Font of inspiration and Font of inspiration.

This should net you between 31 and 127 inspiration points.


At later levels, I suggest Font of inspiration (12), Font of inspiration (15), and Font of inspiration (18), for 1023 inspiration points total.

[HunterOfJello]

You should probably start with the Factotum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0).

Factotum 20 is pretty awesome, although a Factotum going into Chameleon might suit your purposes better.

~

Also, have you considered the Beguiler class? They cast lots of spells, lock down enemies with illusions and enchantment, and they have lots of skill points too.

[Jalor]

Factotums don't get lots of spells. Arcane Dilettante is not the focus of the class, any more than a Ranger's spells are the focus of their class. Arcane Dilettante is for all-day buffs, Phantom Steed, Ruby Ray of Reversal, and the like.

Factotums also aren't particularly good for lockdown builds. You'd need either spells or AoO feats for that, and Factotums want to spend their feats on Knowledge Devotion, Fonts of Inspiration, and Kung-Fu Genius. And as I said before, they don't get a lot of spells.

Sounds to me like you want a Beguiler; they get a big pile of spells - many of which involve locking down their foes, and enough skill points to be consistently useful in various situations.

[containscotton]

I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but you should probably sit down with your party and work things out with them, because it sounds like you want to do the exact same thing you got Tiers 1 and 2 banned for. It seems like it's going to head for an encore of the exact same thing. This is the sort of thing best handled OOCly.

I got banned from those two tiers by my DM specifically not because of my locking down enemies but because I could lock down and solo entire groups multiple times a day. She said that once a day or so is cool, but multiple times is not. She also specifically told me that I was not to touch prismatic wall.

I asked about Factotum, and she says it's cool.

My group has the "you do whatever you want" mentality concerning my character build, but they were merely flabbergasted when they realized that I took very few straight damage spells. Otherwise, we already discussed this, and they said as the above--that I could do pretty much whatever I wanted. They just probably found it irksome.


Font of inspiration (human bonus feat)
Font of inspiration (1)
Font of inspiration (3)
Font of inspiration (6)
Font of inspiration (9)

At later levels, I suggest Font of inspiration (12), Font of inspiration (15), and Font of inspiration (18).

If flaws are allowed, take Font of inspiration and Font of inspiration.

What does that do? Google has failed me.

[Talya]

What does that do? Google has failed me.

I edited my post to include a link to the original source on WotC's website.

Factotums without limits are fun, and the feat becomes exponentially more effective the more times you take it.

[Squiggles]

Font of Inspiration gives you more Inspiration points

[Jalor]

Inspiration points fuel a Factotum's class abilities; depending on your Factotum level, you get a pool of them that replenishes at the start of encounters. Font of Inspiration gives you and additional inspiration point for each iteration of the feat you have, which can get stupidly high after a while.

Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=km6ndupndtepjsav02mbl8ja12&topic=2322.0) if you want it, because honestly a Beguiler is what you really want to be playing here.

[Siosilvar]

I edited my post to include a link to the original source on WotC's website.

Factotums without limits are fun, and the feat becomes exponentially more effective the more times you take it.

...no? It's not exponential. You gain 1 IP the first time you take it, 2 the second time, 3 the third time... just like the XP chart.

1 feat: 1 IP
2 feats: 1 + 2 = 3 IP
3 feats: 3 + 3 = 6 IP
4 feats: 6 + 4 = 10 IP
5 feats: 10 + 5 = 15 IP (find another feat already!)
6 feats: 15 + 6 = 21 IP
7 feats: 28 IP
8 feats: 36 IP
9 feats: 45 IP
10 feats: 55 IP

[containscotton]

You should probably start with the Factotum Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0).

That is a useful site. Are there any more sites like that I should know about?



Also, have you considered the Beguiler class? They cast lots of spells, lock down enemies with illusions and enchantment, and they have lots of skill points too.

Oooooo. But... but... factotum sounds so cool. :smallfrown:

What book is the beguiler from? I must borrow it from my DM.

[Talya]

Hmm. I thought it was 1,2,4,8...but if not, yes, you're right, 1,2,3,4 is only a multiple, not an exponential.

Even so, it adds up much faster than compound interest.

[Sactheminions]

Geometric.

That's the word you want.

[TurtleKing]

The Beguiler or a Bardic Knack alternate class feature for bards going into Chameleon can pull it off better. Beguiler's can lock down with enchantments and illusions (mileage will vary) as well being a skill monkey. Bardic Knack fets all skills as class skills. Chameleon from Races of Destiny can cast any spell upto level 6 of either Wizard spell list or Cleric spell list depending on which one you focus on that day. You migh even be able to have both going in that day.

[TurtleKing]

Isn't Geometric the one were your form slowly shifts as well as getting ley lines and a blending of the castings?

Edit: Whoops double reply.

[0nimaru]

I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but you should probably sit down with your party and work things out with them, because it sounds like you want to do the exact same thing you got Tiers 1 and 2 banned for. It seems like it's going to head for an encore of the exact same thing. This is the sort of thing best handled OOCly.

I fully agree with this sentiment. You're following the word of the DM's request without following the spirit. This is like when a DM asks no druids to take Natural Spell, and you show up at the table with some variant feat that accomplishes the same thing in a sideways manner. With this attitude you're only going to cause the same situation and get some kind of personal pride at having pulled one over on your DM.

[containscotton]

I fully agree with this sentiment. You're following the word of the DM's request without following the spirit. This is like when a DM asks no druids to take Natural Spell, and you show up at the table with some variant feat that accomplishes the same thing in a sideways manner. With this attitude you're only going to cause the same situation and get some kind of personal pride at having pulled one over on your DM.

My DM is very clear on the fact that I want to play someone focused on locking down the enemies. Also, our game has significantly more roleplaying than it does gameplay encounters--as a result, we don't have the "four encounters a day" thing but rather as many encounters a day as would make sense.

I think she was just annoyed at my sorcerer's general utility, and with the ease at which he locked things down and killed them. But she knows I want to play a factotum, and I want to suppress enemies. And she says it's cool.

And the mood was pretty cheery when we had this discussion, because of other things, so I do not believe for a second any negative emotions were present.

[Draz74]

Geometric.

That's the word you want.


Geometric and exponential are the same. They both mean it multiplies by a certain amount every time you increment it.
The actual progression is "quadratic." The explicit formula for the series 1+2+3+... is f(n) = (n^2 + n)/2
Compound interest (which is exponential) grows far, far faster ... eventually. It just takes much longer to get started (assuming a low interest rate) than a quadratic growth.
Taking Font of Inspiration more than about four times is overkill ... you'll rarely have an opportunity to burn your whole array of Inspiration per encounter in a reasonable manner.
Taking Font of Inspiration 3-4 times might be terribly effective, but it's also boring, compared to taking feats that actually let you do something new. And it's not going to increase the number of times per day that you can use spells.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

As usual with these type of threads I really feel it's the DM's fault, not yours.

As a DM he should make encounters where every type gets to shine. Have an opponent sorcerer who counterspells. Give challenges that can't be solved with blasty fires.

You were playing a character who fought intelligently. Now you're taking one who THRIVES on playing intelligently and not fighting in standard ways. I think you're going to give the DM ulcers.

I know it's not much help, but for him this is a case of 'You're Doing It Wrong'.

[Shadowknight12]

I know it's not much help, but for him this is a case of 'You're Doing It Wrong'.

You say that as if such a thing actually existed. Odd.

[Arundel]

Taking Font of Inspiration more than about four times is overkill ... you'll rarely have an opportunity to burn your whole array of Inspiration per encounter in a reasonable manner.
Taking Font of Inspiration 3-4 times might be terribly effective, but it's also boring, compared to taking feats that actually let you do something new. And it's not going to increase the number of times per day that you can use spells.


Why do you need new things when you can burn 50 IP and sneak attack things so hard they never existed? 55d6 sneak attack should cause your party to revise their opinions on you not having damage capability.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

You say that as if such a thing actually existed. Odd.
If you have to weigh down a player with the equivalent of concrete shoes because he's outshining or practically laughing through encounters then this sounds very much like a case of You're Not Doing It Right.

You're Not Doing It Right when someone has to punish a player for being useful. We're not even talking optimized, just well built.

Punishing a player for doing well just sounds very Not Right. Not the character, mind you, making his life miserable is the DM's job, but never punish the player.

[deuxhero]

Boost intelligence as high as you possibly can.

Font of inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) (human bonus feat)
Font of inspiration (1)
Font of inspiration (3)
Font of inspiration (6)
Font of inspiration (9)
If flaws are allowed, take Font of inspiration and Font of inspiration.

This should net you between 31 and 127 inspiration points.


At later levels, I suggest Font of inspiration (12), Font of inspiration (15), and Font of inspiration (18), for 1023 inspiration points total.


If you want to be a skill monkey, I think that one feat that lets you make rolls for everything as though trained has its uses...



Why do you need new things when you can burn 50 IP and sneak attack things so hard they never existed? 55d6 sneak attack should cause your party to revise their opinions on you not having damage capability.

And the DM reason to start making encounters undead, plants and constructs.

[Arundel]

And the DM reason to start making encounters undead, plants and constructs.

Well the Op shouldn't base the entire build off of it, It just seems from the playing style that he/she would have enjoyed that trick every once in a while. You are correct in that it is by no means a good plan for that to be your only trick. What are you, a CW Samurai?

[containscotton]

If you have to weigh down a player with the equivalent of concrete shoes because he's outshining or practically laughing through encounters then this sounds very much like a case of You're Not Doing It Right.

You're Not Doing It Right when someone has to punish a player for being useful. We're not even talking optimized, just well built.

Punishing a player for doing well just sounds very Not Right. Not the character, mind you, making his life miserable is the DM's job, but never punish the player.

I am loathe to say that my DM isn't doing it right, though. She has a ton of experience, and to top it off, my successes aren't necessarily making this game boring. I think she just finds it a bit hectic since I'm winning fights I shouldn't be (especially when I'm separated from my group--which is very often).

I mean, all the other characters still are useful. The fighter is doing what he does best, the cleric what she does best, and the bard what he does best. She separates us very often, and forces us to perform more utilitarian tasks than combat ones.

Her issue with my sorcerer can be best summarized as follows. Since I'm a lawful evil character, and I'm playing as the Big Bad Evil Emperor's agent (which none of my team's characters know, although OOC they do know), once in a while I refuse the tasks assigned to me by the archetypical quest-giver and kill the individual instead, when I'm not supposed to--causing my DM to have to create a new branching plot-line.

[Shadowknight12]

If you have to weigh down a player with the equivalent of concrete shoes because he's outshining or practically laughing through encounters then this sounds very much like a case of You're Not Doing It Right.

You're Not Doing It Right when someone has to punish a player for being useful. We're not even talking optimized, just well built.

Punishing a player for doing well just sounds very Not Right. Not the character, mind you, making his life miserable is the DM's job, but never punish the player.

The DM has a right to run their games as they see fit. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're "Doing It Wrong." The best course of action* is not to lecture either party, but to try and get to an agreement where both parties are benefited. If that's not possible, the second best course of action* is for both parties to go their own way.

*: Best course of action defined as the course of action that maximises the fun for all involved.

[stainboy]

...no? It's not exponential. You gain 1 IP the first time you take it, 2 the second time, 3 the third time... just like the XP chart.

1 feat: 1 IP
2 feats: 1 + 2 = 3 IP
3 feats: 3 + 3 = 6 IP
4 feats: 6 + 4 = 10 IP
5 feats: 10 + 5 = 15 IP (find another feat already!)
6 feats: 15 + 6 = 21 IP
7 feats: 28 IP
8 feats: 36 IP
9 feats: 45 IP
10 feats: 55 IP

By that interpretation taking Font of Inspiration N times gives you (0.5n^2 + 0.5n) inspiration points. To a math nerd that's not exponential growth, but when the rest of the world says exponential they mean superlinear.

I think it's supposed to be linear, if only because quadratic FoI lets you break the action economy in half and no DM will put up with that from a feat from a web enhancement.

[Reluctance]

If you have to weigh down a player with the equivalent of concrete shoes because he's outshining or practically laughing through encounters then this sounds very much like a case of You're Not Doing It Right.

You're Not Doing It Right when someone has to punish a player for being useful. We're not even talking optimized, just well built.

Punishing a player for doing well just sounds very Not Right. Not the character, mind you, making his life miserable is the DM's job, but never punish the player.

So are you advocating always building encounters to specifically target PC weaknesses, or turning low-op characters into lackeys for their high-op colleagues? Both of those are classic ways to sour a table.

Okay, there's also a third option. Have to spend the time and brainpower required to make sure your plot isn't blown up by any of the thousands of spells that have been printed. That sounds like a surefire recipe for DM burnout to me.

[TurtleKing]

Now while they ...discuss...semantics of the situation I'll help with your character idea. Understand that when you say Factotum they are "Jack of all Trades Masters of None". Well there is better way to pull that off that fits what you want to do even better. Start off as Human getting Able Learner making all skills class skills which is required for Chameleon. Now for icing you can also get the Bardic Knack ACF as well for redundancy mostly. As soon as possible that you qualify for Chameleon go on ahead and take all 10 levels before going to any other class.

As you go along you can assign a bonus to an Attribute with the ability to reassign each day. You also get a "floating" feat, which means can change that feat out at the beginning of the day to another one you qualify for. You also gain a few class features from various classes and eventually can have two going at the same time. The divine and arcane side you gain a mini spell list upto 6th level of any spell. When you can dual focus duplicates the Mystic Theuge PrC. In case you haven't guessed yet you gained a lot of Prestige Classes with just one Prestige Class to a degree. Around mid level in the PrC you can also re-focus so if the Wizard or Cleric didn't prepare a certain spell upto 6th level you can. Also great someone like the dedicated trap person or tank are unavaiable for any reason you can step in.

Keep in mind that yes you can do everything they can do, but they are better at it than you. You are support suplementing them in certain areas or filling in for the others.

[candycorn]

Example of DM-tailored encounter to allow players to shine, but not dominate:

Party: Duskblade, Cleric, Factotum/Chameleon. All, level 8.

Duskblade has been more or less running amok, due to quickcast true strike, a +1 spell storing halberd, and a heartseeking amulet (all very good for such a class).

Cleric has been running around with about a 35 AC, and used DMM persist with a Heal over time spell and divine power.

Encounter: Arrow Demon, followed immediately by a Zakya Rakshasa.

Arrow Demon had relatively low AC for a CR 8, but it had a lot of HP and DR, along with Dimension Door. The party used mounts to keep pressure on it, and came to the rescue of the dwarf who was pinned down. During this fight, the duskblade used all her amulet charges, and quickcast a true strike to deliver a sudden maximized ray of enfeeblement, and other damage. The immunity to electricity left her power attacking a lot, and the amulet and true strike made that accurate.

However, the actual situation was a territory dispute. After letting the party help kill the demon, the rakshasa (in the guise of a dwarf) got close, thanking them, and ran the factotum through, nearly killing him (it had successfully mind read one party member, so had a vague idea of the abilities).

The duskblade suddenly had a very hard time hitting the much more formidable AC of the Zekya, and its SR made it difficult to land damage spells. Higher DR meant things were dicey. It managed to land touch attacks on the cleric (chill touch) and vampiric touches on the duskblade.

The encounter was won without loss of life, but it was MUCH harder than if it had been spread out more.

On a side note, an arrow demon with a 11 strength gets a sizeable penalty when using a bow rated for a +5 strength modifier.

[Joxer t' Mighty]

So are you advocating always building encounters to specifically target PC weaknesses, or turning low-op characters into lackeys for their high-op colleagues? Both of those are classic ways to sour a table.
What bag of holding did you pull that from?



Okay, there's also a third option. Have to spend the time and brainpower required to make sure your plot isn't blown up by any of the thousands of spells that have been printed. That sounds like a surefire recipe for DM burnout to me.
If your entire plot can be blown up by a single spell then... yeah, I'm just going to go get a glass of water.

[Jalor]

What book is the beguiler from? I must borrow it from my DM.

Player's Handbook II.

[Zaq]

As far as lockdown is concerned, a Factotum who invests in both STR and INT can make a very respectable tripper.

A very different kind of lockdown from Solid Fog, perhaps, but a kind of lockdown nevertheless.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

As usual with these type of threads I really feel it's the DM's fault, not yours.So the DM knows about tiers but hasn't bothered with the dirty handbook fixes?

Also Factotum is the king of t3 so your DM didn't nerf you too much from sor

[JKTrickster]

Wow! We have a natural optimizer right out of the bag folks! Without any coaching and just smart reading! My god I don't know why I feel so proud :smallwink:

Anyways yeah go for Beguiler. Factotum aren't really the "shutting down" type.

[Redshirt Army]

Factotum shines at always being able to perform a relevant action, even if the action that would be relevant for a given moment is something highly esoteric and unusual.

Beguiler is excellent at shutting down opponents, both in combat with illusions and out of combat with enchantment.

Both are highly intelligent, adaptable opponents, who excel at solving problems through loopholes, rather than confronting them directly.

Side Note: Get Shapesand (from It's Hot Outside). It can turn into any mundane item.

[NOhara24]

I got banned from those two tiers by my DM specifically not because of my locking down enemies but because I could lock down and solo entire groups multiple times a day. She said that once a day or so is cool, but multiple times is not. She also specifically told me that I was not to touch prismatic wall.


It sounds like your DM isn't up to snuff here. I've always hated when DMs ban something AFTER they see it in action. Granted, when my DM got word that I had gotten my hands on the ToB, he was apprehensive, but he ended up just adapted his campaign to work with it. In my mind, it's ultimately up to the DM to make the game fun, regardless of what players wish to do with their Characters. This doesn't mean that banning things is wrong, but this is the first (and hopefully last) time I've heard of someone banning Sor/Wiz outright.

[Volthawk]

It sounds like your DM isn't up to snuff here. I've always hated when DMs ban something AFTER they see it in action. Granted, when my DM got word that I had gotten my hands on the ToB, he was apprehensive, but he ended up just adapted his campaign to work with it. In my mind, it's ultimately up to the DM to make the game fun, regardless of what players wish to do with their Characters. This doesn't mean that banning things is wrong, but this is the first (and hopefully last) time I've heard of someone banning Sor/Wiz outright.

So...banning something before knowing if and how well it balances with your group is better? :smallconfused:

And I've heard of banning tiers 1 & 2 before, as a way of balancing the game (since there's casters of tier 3 and under, such as Beguiler).