PDA

View Full Version : New And Improved Toughness (3.5)



Egneil
2011-08-15, 12:30 AM
This is simply my attempt at making the Toughness feat more useful. Anyway here it is:

Toughness [General]

Prerequisite:
Con 13 (Tentative)

Benefit:
You gain an additional Hit Die.

Special:
This feat cannot be taken more than once.

A fighter may select this feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

The extra hit die isn't used to determine character level or class level, so you can't use it to get a feat sooner or apply it to your caster level. I didn't really see the need to write it out in the description, but I will if I need to. Also the reason the Con 13 is tentative is that it might cause this feat to become too inaccessible, or it might be the only thing keeping this feat balanced. I wanted to add the Endurance feat to it's prerequisite, but I also wanted casters to be able to take it as well.

This all can (and probably will) change over time if it's deemed too unbalanced. Well this is about it, so if you have any questions then feel free to ask.

Cipher Stars
2011-08-15, 12:47 AM
Well, it has the potential to be worse then normal Toughness (especially on the poor d4's)
I sure wouldn't replace Toughness with it. But I'd take it In addition to normal Toughness and Improved Toughness.
"Greater Toughness" perhaps?

Kellus
2011-08-15, 12:48 AM
Why are you giving them a Hit Die if it doesn't count for anything that Hit Dice do? Hit Dice do a lot of things in the system, being one of the key indicators of power level. Just say they get bonus hp equal to 1d10+Con.

Cipher Stars
2011-08-15, 12:52 AM
Just say they get bonus hp equal to 1d10+Con.

^-this.
Would keep things fair in the feat between say a Rogue or Cleric to take the feat and say a Barbarian to take the feat.

Drachasor
2011-08-15, 12:54 AM
Eh...

"You gain 5 hit points or your Character Level in Hit Points, whichever is more. When determining your hit points upon gaining a level, if your Character Level is 6 or greater you gain a bonus hit point"

There, New And Improved.

Cieyrin
2011-08-15, 08:57 AM
Why are you giving them a Hit Die if it doesn't count for anything that Hit Dice do? Hit Dice do a lot of things in the system, being one of the key indicators of power level. Just say they get bonus hp equal to 1d10+Con.

I agree, giving a HD that doesn't give any of the benefits of HD beside hitpoints is counter intuitive. Where I disagree is using a die at all, as if you have poor Con, you could easily get 1-2 hp by rolling poorly, which hardly seems better than regular toughness. A flat boost seems more desirable to avoid having the RNG smite you.

My favorite fix is what Arcana Evolved did, which was double your Con bonus or 4 hp, whichever is better. Works a bit better than the line of Toughness feats that Masters of the Wild pushed, certainly, what with the Fort requirement making them not really viable for low hp people, since they tend to also have low Base Fort.

Egneil
2011-08-15, 05:36 PM
Why are you giving them a Hit Die if it doesn't count for anything that Hit Dice do? Hit Dice do a lot of things in the system, being one of the key indicators of power level. Just say they get bonus hp equal to 1d10+Con.

Ummm, from what I understand, your character and caster levels aren't based on Hit Dice. Your caster level I believe is simply your character's levels in all of their spellcasting class levels. Otherwise a level 1 wizard/19 fighter would have the same caster level as a level 20 wizard. (As both of them would have the same amount of HD, and they could both cast spells.) With your character level being the cumulative total of all of your class levels combined. The only reason I listed that was to keep people from thinking that they could use this feat to gain feats and ability score bonuses sooner. (Both of which I believe are based on your character's character level.)


I agree, giving a HD that doesn't give any of the benefits of HD beside hitpoints is counter intuitive. Where I disagree is using a die at all, as if you have poor Con, you could easily get 1-2 hp by rolling poorly, which hardly seems better than regular toughness. A flat boost seems more desirable to avoid having the RNG smite you.

My favorite fix is what Arcana Evolved did, which was double your Con bonus or 4 hp, whichever is better. Works a bit better than the line of Toughness feats that Masters of the Wild pushed, certainly, what with the Fort requirement making them not really viable for low hp people, since they tend to also have low Base Fort.

There are quite a few spells and abilities that check against your Hit Dice, which is one of the reasons for me picking Hit Dice over Hit Points. A flat HP bonus would do nothing for these spells, while an additional HD would offer some small measure of protection. Characters with a low HD and Con would normally be further away from the front, which would make an HP bonus less useful than a conditional spell protection. While high HD/Con characters would see the extra HP as more useful than the spell protection.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-15, 05:42 PM
Ummm, from what I understand, your character and caster levels aren't based on Hit Dice.

You caster level might not be, but your character level is. You also add half your HD that's non-martial adept to your initiator level. You also get 3/4 BAB and poor saving throw progression.

Greenish
2011-08-15, 05:42 PM
Hit dice increase ECL, skill caps, BAB, skillpoints, saves, etc. If that's intended, you should say what type of HD it is, and if it's not, you really shouldn't use HD to begin with.

If you want it to help vs. Blasphemy etc, just write that in too. "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the masterís character level or the familiarís normal HD total, whichever is higher increase your HD total by one." Bam!

Silva Stormrage
2011-08-15, 06:10 PM
If you want it to help vs. Blasphemy etc, just write that in too. "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the masterís character level or the familiarís normal HD total, whichever is higher increase your HD total by one." Bam!

I agree with Greenish this is a much better alternative than confusing people with wether or not these "Virtual HD" count as real HD.

Why not make the HD maximized as well? I mean it helps fighter types more than low hp wizards. Of course then at low levels everyone would take this. Not sure what's better

Yitzi
2011-08-15, 06:16 PM
It still runs into the same problem as the original toughness: Not only does it not improve with level, it doesn't even stay steady with level like other abilities do. (Well, unless you're taking it because you want immunity to Blasphemy or better saves.)

A better approach would be the opposite one: It gives only 3 hit points at first level, but an additional 1 hit point for each level after that (both those taken before and after the feat.)

FMArthur
2011-08-15, 06:16 PM
If you truly want to 'fix' hit points you need to make changes to the hit point system itself; maybe even do something like 4e's starting hitpoints = Con score (+class hit die?). If you don't want to make drastic changes, use the normal "3 + 1 per character level after 3rd" Toughness fix.

Yitzi
2011-08-15, 09:05 PM
If you truly want to 'fix' hit points you need to make changes to the hit point system itself.

Why? Hit points work just fine in all sorts of games, what needs fixing here?

It's toughness that's underpowered, not hit points in general that's the problem.

Drachasor
2011-08-15, 09:11 PM
Why? Hit points work just fine in all sorts of games, what needs fixing here?

It's toughness that's underpowered, not hit points in general that's the problem.

He didn't mean hitpoints as a system, but rather hit point numbers as implemented in 3.X.

Kellus
2011-08-15, 09:12 PM
Actually, I think a feat which gave you a single racial HD of your type without increasing your ECL or CR would be a really interesting thought experiment in what a feat is "worth" to a character. But it wouldn't really have anything to do with toughness.

Elegonn
2011-08-24, 11:35 PM
You're talking about fixing hitpoints!!! Imagine I am a orc with a two handed axe and 10 str. I hit your 5th level unarmored wizard with a non-natural 20. I would roll 1d12 damage. That on average will do 6.5 damage. If I hit you with a two handed axe you would die. The wizard loses no bleed damage, takes no penalty, and still has a lot mor hp left. Just saying. Fixing hitpoints would be class AC bonuses, armor as DR, and vitality and wounds from star wars.

Seerow
2011-08-24, 11:58 PM
You're talking about fixing hitpoints!!! Imagine I am a orc with a two handed axe and 10 str. I hit your 5th level unarmored wizard with a non-natural 20. I would roll 1d12 damage. That on average will do 6.5 damage. If I hit you with a two handed axe you would die. The wizard loses no bleed damage, takes no penalty, and still has a lot mor hp left. Just saying. Fixing hitpoints would be class AC bonuses, armor as DR, and vitality and wounds from star wars.

That whole post was really off topic but really wrong, so here's my off topic response.

First, it is important to point out that I am not in fact a 5th level Wizard. Player Characters by default are harder to kill than I am. Because I'm not a superhero. Player Characters are.

Second, using vitality and wounds from star wars wouldn't fix your problem, because you didn't account for a crit with your axe swing, so the damage would have gone straight to vitality, and the star wars character continues walking around with no penalty just like the D&D character.

Third, if you DID account for a crit, and make the orc 14 strength (the actual average for an orc), then you get 1d12+3x3 for an average of 28.5 damage, and a max of 45 damage. Your 5th level Wizard has 5d4+5xcon. So he requires a 16 constitution (exceptionally tough) to survive the average crit, and a 22 constitution to survive the maximum crit. A 22 con at level 5 on a wizard just isn't happening, and even the 16 is pushing it. And if you do give the Wizard a 16 con, then the orc hitting him should be equally exceptional, gaining +6 to his strength. He now has 20 strength and his axe is hitting for 1d12+7, making your average crit 40.5, easily killing our poor wizard.

This of course assumes the wizard has no spells up protecting him, which is possible, but outside the discussion since you are just complaining about the undefended wizard's toughness, and would presumably accept a wizard living by means of a spell





Anyway, on topic, the feat is decent, but doesn't really fix toughness. It should basically just read "Gain 1d10+con mod hp" rather than gain an extra HD since you don't want it to grant any other benefits, but personally I'd allow it to grant all benefits, including BAB and skill points (as these come from regular hit dice), but not caster level (as this comes from class levels). That might actually make it worth the feat. A few extra hit points is never actually going to be worth a feat investment, for anyone.

Yitzi
2011-08-25, 12:20 AM
He didn't mean hitpoints as a system, but rather hit point numbers as implemented in 3.X.

I don't see what's wrong with those either.



First, it is important to point out that I am not in fact a 5th level Wizard. Player Characters by default are harder to kill than I am. Because I'm not a superhero. Player Characters are.

Second, using vitality and wounds from star wars wouldn't fix your problem, because you didn't account for a crit with your axe swing, so the damage would have gone straight to vitality, and the star wars character continues walking around with no penalty just like the D&D character.

Third, if you DID account for a crit, and make the orc 14 strength (the actual average for an orc), then you get 1d12+3x3 for an average of 28.5 damage, and a max of 45 damage. Your 5th level Wizard has 5d4+5xcon. So he requires a 16 constitution (exceptionally tough) to survive the average crit, and a 22 constitution to survive the maximum crit. A 22 con at level 5 on a wizard just isn't happening, and even the 16 is pushing it. And if you do give the Wizard a 16 con, then the orc hitting him should be equally exceptional, gaining +6 to his strength. He now has 20 strength and his axe is hitting for 1d12+7, making your average crit 40.5, easily killing our poor wizard.

This of course assumes the wizard has no spells up protecting him, which is possible, but outside the discussion since you are just complaining about the undefended wizard's toughness, and would presumably accept a wizard living by means of a spell


This. And in particular the first point: By 5th level, D&D characters are quite accomplished by modern standards, so it's silly to think that a typical axe blow should take one out. (Now, a blow from a level-appropriate enemy might be a different story.)

Egneil
2011-08-25, 12:11 PM
I was planning on letting this topic die off after learning that a few of your concerns were well founded. Yet I find myself posting here again after finding one of your misconceptions to be hilarious, that one being that I am trying to fix the HP system of 3.5. So I'll just state right now that I am not trying to fix the HP system. I find that that system is good enough to warrant not being fixed, yes it has it's problems but it's balanced enough to make a good game fun. What I am trying to do is make a feat that was completely useless actually have a use that befitted it's name.

Now I looked around a little and found that Hit Dice do not increase any of the stats that you listed, but only in multiclassed characters. So yeah, if the need arises I will either make a prerequisite that you be a multiclassed character, or that taking this feat causes you to fall under the multiclassing rules. Also for those of you who will ask about this here are the rules that I found:

Level

"Character level" is a characterís total number of levels. It is used to determine when feats and ability score boosts are gained.

"Class level" is a characterís level in a particular class. For a character whose levels are all in the same class, character level and class level are the same.

Hit Points

A character gains hit points from each class as his or her class level increases, adding the new hit points to the previous total.

Base Attack Bonus

Add the base attack bonuses acquired for each class to get the characterís base attack bonus. A resulting value of +6 or higher provides the character with multiple attacks.

Saving Throws

Add the base save bonuses for each class together.
Skills

If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís classes, then character level determines a skillís maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)

If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass characterís classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.