Help with a Home Rule: Multiple attacks on a standard action

[Thyrian]

Hi guys, I've been DM'ing for a while now and I really like the idea of PC's being able to attack more than once on a standard action. I'm not going to even lightly PROD the whole wizard vs fighter argument but I'd really like to let the fighters in my group feel like they have more options than full attacking round after round. I get that this home-rule would probably be an instant game-breaker normally but no-one's power-gaming in our group and no-one will go out of their way to search the book sets to find the ultimate abuse combo on this. If anything they're likely to find a combo and still go "That'd be an awesome combo... but it's way too 'elfy' for my dwarf"

Any ideas on how I could do this? I'm looking for a rule for how it works as a choice starting around BAB +11 not as a feat but simply an option that anyone with a BAB of +11 and above can have? I haven't played many systems part from 3.5 so as opposed to testing a random idea and telling my players how it's changed AGAIN every 2 session, I thought I'd ask an informed audience first.

What about it? any notions?

[GFawkes]

Sounds like something that a feat could be used for. Maybe have a BAB requirement, or have it only apply with certain weapons, like the Weapon Focus chain.

D'oh. Missed the "not a feat" part.

Hmmm.....
Maybe it could be something like this:

By taking a -5 penalty to the attack roll per attack, you can attack multiple times in a standard action, with the maximum being as many attacks as a full attack would grant.

[Thyrian]

Ideally I'd want it to be a feat-less option, that's not to say feats wouldn't improve upon it- but basically on a standard action anyone with BAB +11 gets the choice to either make the normal single attack, with a great chance to hit or a double attack with a lower chance... I'm just not quite how to implement it mechanic wise.. the last time I attempted a badly implemented mechanic it took me 2 months to fix it.... and then just as we'd balanced it the one character that used it died...:smallfrown:

[MeeposFire]

I thought of using a system that the first time per round you hit with an attack action on your turn or on a charge without pounce you deal extra damage equal to +1d6 damage per point of BAB above +5. So BAB 20 gives +15d6 damage. This simulates the extra effort you can put in since you are not trying to do more attacks.

[Seerow]

Maybe an improved manyshot knockoff?

Take a -2 penalty for every attack beyond the first you make as a standard action. This penalty is applied to all attacks for the round.


So instead of +20/+15/+10/+5, you get +12/+12/+12/+12


If that seems too good, maybe cut out one attack as well (so the option comes online at BAB+11 with a +7/+7 attack instead of +11/+6/+1, and caps at +14/+14/+14). But the overall lowered attack bonus is going to hurt a lot just in terms of reliable hits (your first hit is generally guaranteed to hit, the next one has high accuracy, and after that it's iffy. Instead you're getting several attacks at iffy accuracy, losing out on your near guaranteed hits)

[Fitz10019]

A standard action attack could be all attacks except your lowest one. When you have BAB +1, your standard action attack is at +1. When you have BAB +6/+1, your standard action attack is at +6. When you have BAB +11/+6/+1, your standard action attack is at +11/+6.

[Thyrian]

Maybe an improved manyshot knockoff?

Take a -2 penalty for every attack beyond the first you make as a standard action. This penalty is applied to all attacks for the round.


So instead of +20/+15/+10/+5, you get +12/+12/+12/+12


If that seems too good, maybe cut out one attack as well (so the option comes online at BAB+11 with a +7/+7 attack instead of +11/+6/+1, and caps at +14/+14/+14). -snip-

Hmmm at first I was tempted by Meepos's system and Fitz's but both of those felt like the warrior was getting limited as opposed to a potential exchange option.

Never the less they helped me consider whether I would want the standard attack to do more damage or do I want them to have potential more hits on a standard attack- the latter definitely being the case after thinking about it!

I like the sound of Seerow's second suggestion with the +7/+7 example, just a query in that regard though,

Assuming they get their equivalent full attack at a penalty, would the unaltered improved many shot knock off at BAB+11 give +5/+5/+5?

What are your thoughts on allowing them to 'pick' which version they want on the spot?

e.g. they can chose whether to throw out 1 attack (+11), 2(+9/+9) or 3(+7/+7/+7) with the appropriate penalty to 2 & 3, or would that extra level of choice be a bit too imbalanced?

Because at the moment that kind of sounds perfect, allowing a skilled warrior even without specific feats, to rip his way through weak foes!

[Lonely Tylenol]

My take would be either Seerow's with a maximum of one less attack than a full attack action (to a maximum of two attacks if your BAB is 11-15, and three if your BAB is 16-20), or something to the equivalent of making multiple attacks works like a standard action, except with greater increments. For example, someone with a base attack bonus of +12 can make three attacks, each time subtracting 5 from their base attack bonus (+12/+7/+2); if you made the increment, say, 10 for standard actions, then someone with a base attack bonus of +12 would be able to make two attacks on their standard actions, (+12/+2). This is arguably a safer, but lower-powered alternative; they are guaranteed their one "safe" attack as usual, but the second comes with enough of a penalty to make it negligible (or at least never a sure deal), and the third doesn't come until epic levels for full-BAB classes. Rogues and other 3/4-BAB classes don't get the second attack until level 15, where it's almost laughable (since it comes online at +1), and caster classes (which make up most, if not all, of the 1/2-BAB classes) don't get it until epic levels.

[Godskook]

Read through Tome of Battle and a couple of guides about it before making this houserule.

[Thyrian]

Read through Tome of Battle and a couple of guides about it before making this houserule.

Which particular part of ToB would you be referring to here? I've read it and I'm not looking for a maneuver a player can have readied that they can use constantly I'm not quite sure which particular part you're referring to.

Likewise another reason for posting here was not knowing any guidelines specific to altering the standard action- attack, if you could direct me towards some that'd be great! I've looked at guide lines for making house rules in general but the Playground seems better for these specific questions.

[TOZ]

Kirth Gersen on the Paizo forums has a couple houserules you may like.

PREEMPTIVE ACTIONS
A combatant can choose to hold movement and/or attacks, to his normal limit, for immediate use later in the round. For example, a ranger with attacks +6/+1 could attack once at +6, then choose to wait make an attack at +1 at any time before his next turn, even if his doing so interrupts someone else’s turn. These rules supersede the normal Pathfinder rules for Readied Actions and Delay.
Holding attacks and movement can be used in conjunction with the tactical movement option described below. For example, if the ranger above had a speed of 40 ft., he could move 5 feet and attack at +6, then wait and later that round move 15 more feat and attack again at +1, possibly saving an ally.
Any attacks or movement not used before the end of the round are lost.
Beating to the Punch: If two or more creatures attempt to preempt one another with held actions, make a new initiative check to determine who goes first in that particular exchange; the loser must attempt to continue his stated action. Once the series of preemptive actions ends, initiative returns to the normal order.

TACTICAL MOVEMENT
When making a full attack, a character can also move up to half his or her speed that round. Movement can be taken before, in between, or after attacks, or in any combination thereof, but it must be made in 5-ft. increments. For example, a character with Speed 30 ft. and BAB +16 could attack once at +16, move ten feet, attack again at +11, then move five more feet and attack again at +11. Because this is normal movement, rather than a series of 5-ft. steps, you still provoke attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares.

[Thyrian]

Kirth Gersen on the Paizo forums has a couple houserules you may like.

PREEMPTIVE ACTIONS
A combatant can choose to hold movement and/or attacks, to his normal limit, for immediate use later in the round. For example, a ranger with attacks +6/+1 could attack once at +6, then choose to wait make an attack at +1 at any time before his next turn, even if his doing so interrupts someone else’s turn. These rules supersede the normal Pathfinder rules for Readied Actions and Delay.
Holding attacks and movement can be used in conjunction with the tactical movement option described below. For example, if the ranger above had a speed of 40 ft., he could move 5 feet and attack at +6, then wait and later that round move 15 more feat and attack again at +1, possibly saving an ally.
Any attacks or movement not used before the end of the round are lost.
Beating to the Punch: If two or more creatures attempt to preempt one another with held actions, make a new initiative check to determine who goes first in that particular exchange; the loser must attempt to continue his stated action. Once the series of preemptive actions ends, initiative returns to the normal order.

TACTICAL MOVEMENT
When making a full attack, a character can also move up to half his or her speed that round. Movement can be taken before, in between, or after attacks, or in any combination thereof, but it must be made in 5-ft. increments. For example, a character with Speed 30 ft. and BAB +16 could attack once at +16, move ten feet, attack again at +11, then move five more feet and attack again at [+6/+1]. Because this is normal movement, rather than a series of 5-ft. steps, you still provoke attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares.


Thanks for these, they both sound quite cool! I think I'll introduce both of these as well as Seerow's suggestion... I just have to do it nice and slowly, Tactical movement they should get quite fast but Pre-emptive feels simple but is complex since it instantly adds another dimension to combat strategy, so that one will be introduced sloooowwwwllly. They're new players so I've been taking the learn mechanics as we go kind of approach... the entire level 7 arc was all about learning the importance of buffs....

Much obliged Playground, I looked for one additional house rule and the end result is you've improved my entire game!

[TOZ]

It will certainly cause some slowdown, as all interrupt actions do. They may enjoy the more chaotic and tactical aspect of combat, or they may get headaches dealing with the 'now I use MY held attack to foil his action!' aspect. I agree that you should take it slowly and try to communicate actions very clearly to minimize that.

[candycorn]

I would probably add that such options should only be allowed to characters who got their BAB from Class levels or Racial HD.

Otherwise, you end up providing a rather stout boost to clerics, what with Divine Power and all.

[BlueInc]

TACTICAL MOVEMENT
When making a full attack, a character can also move up to half his or her speed that round. Movement can be taken before, in between, or after attacks, or in any combination thereof, but it must be made in 5-ft. increments. For example, a character with Speed 30 ft. and BAB +16 could attack once at +16, move ten feet, attack again at +11, then move five more feet and attack again at +11. Because this is normal movement, rather than a series of 5-ft. steps, you still provoke attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares.

I am going to implement this rule in games I DM. I think it's just about perfect.

Think about a monk with flurry of blows and good anti-AoO abilities running through a crowd of foes punching and kicking them all the way through.

My TWF rogue player salutes you.

[Greenish]

I get that this home-rule would probably be an instant game-breaker normallyNo, it wouldn't.

It's not like there isn't anything like that in the game already. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

[Seerow]

Hmmm at first I was tempted by Meepos's system and Fitz's but both of those felt like the warrior was getting limited as opposed to a potential exchange option.

Never the less they helped me consider whether I would want the standard attack to do more damage or do I want them to have potential more hits on a standard attack- the latter definitely being the case after thinking about it!

I like the sound of Seerow's second suggestion with the +7/+7 example, just a query in that regard though,

Assuming they get their equivalent full attack at a penalty, would the unaltered improved many shot knock off at BAB+11 give +5/+5/+5?

What are your though on allowing them to 'pick' which version they want on the spot?

e.g. they can chose whether to throw out 1 attack (+11), 2(+7/+7) or 3(+5/+5/+5) with the appropriate penalty to 2 & 3, or would that extra level of choice be a bit too imbalanced?

Because at the moment that kind of sounds perfect, allowing a skilled warrior even without specific feats, to rip his way through weak foes!

Yeah I'd say they could choose without too much trouble. You could also make it a feat available to both melee and range giving that last attack back. ie it would look something like this:

Maximum Attacks
{table=head]Full Attack | Standard Action Attack | Standard Action + Feat
+1 | +1 | -
+2 | +2 | -
+3 | +3 | -
+4 | +4 | -
+5 | +5 | -
+6/+1 | +6 | +4/+4
+7/+2 | +7 | +5/+5
+8/+3 | +8 | +6/+6
+9/+4 | +9 | +7/+7
+10/+5 | +10|+8/+8
+11/+6/+1|+9/+9|+7/+7/+7
+12/+7/+2|+10/+10|+8/+8/+8
+13/+8/+3|+11/+11|+9/+9/+9
+14/+9/+4|+12/+12|+10/+10/+10
+15/+10/+5|+13/+13|+11/+11/+11
+16/+11/+6/+1|+12/+12/+12|+10/+10/+10/+10
+17/+12/+7/+2|+13/+13/+13|+11/+11/+11/+11
+18/+13/+8/+3|+14/+14/+14|+12/+12/+12/+12
+19/+14/+9/+4|+15/+15/+15|+13/+13/+13/+13
+20/+15/+10/+4|+16/+16/+16|+14/+14/+14/+14[/table]

[BlueInc]

It's not like there isn't anything like that in the game already. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358)

I originally was considering making a full attack a standard action as a short fix to the "not-being-able-to-moves-sucks" dilemma, but that makes things like this list worthless. I especially like this house list because it doesn't completely obsolete a lot of these. For example, Pounce would allow you to get your full-attack on a charge, getting up to double your speed before your attack.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

For the other homerule, I think it would be interesting to see a "Parry" action that would allow you to block enemy attacks with a prepared iterative.

[Fitz10019]

If you want to offer options, I suggest that any of a PC's attacks could be used as an Aid Another action, or a move action (that does not involve actual movement).

[MeeposFire]

ToB is how my idea was established. Most standard action strikes in ToB are d6s of damage plus an effect. I modeled the damage with an easy to describe method that kept damage similar but slightly lower to the ToB strikes and then no status effect. This way your attacks deal decent damage but they are not as powerful as ToB strikes (thus ensuring they are still desired if you like the system).

I wanted to keep ToB as a usable system.

[Xtomjames]

Here's my suggestion, rather than come up with some elaborate method of attacking. Just make them have reflex rolls.

Let's say your fighter is attacking a dire boar. To get a second hit in the standard action he needs to roll a reflex save equal to the dire boar's AC. A third hit in the standard action would be the DB's AC +2, a third would be AC+4, etc.

The reflex save is how fast the PC can react. Then just make the max number of attacks in a standard action be no greater than the total attacks the PC has. If the reflex saves fail then the chain is broken and they can take their move action. If they get to their total number of attacks, then it's considered a full round action.

[Greenish]

Here's my suggestion, rather than come up with some elaborate method of attacking. Just make them have reflex rolls.

Let's say your fighter is attacking a dire boar. To get a second hit in the standard action he needs to roll a reflex save equal to the dire boar's AC. A third hit in the standard action would be the DB's AC +2, a third would be AC+4, etc.

The reflex save is how fast the PC can react. Then just make the max number of attacks in a standard action be no greater than the total attacks the PC has. If the reflex saves fail then the chain is broken and they can take their move action. If they get to their total number of attacks, then it's considered a full round action.Rolling twice for every attack slows the game down, I should think. Besides, if Ref save is how fast a PC reacts, what's Initiative roll for?

[Groverfield]

One possible rule: two attacks on a charge for TWF, with the feat (do not gain the charge attack bonus, keep -2 AC for a charge.)

Another possible rule: "standard attack-style action" can be used in place of a standard attack, except during full attacks.

[Greenish]

One possible rule: two attacks on a charge for TWF, with the feat (do not gain the charge attack bonus, keep -2 AC for a charge.)Might as well keep the attack bonus. Two-weapon Pounce should be rolled to the TWF feat. But then, I feel most of the TWF feats should be rolled into one.


Another possible rule: "standard attack-style action" can be used in place of a standard attack, except during full attacks.I don't get it.

[Metahuman1]

Letting your None ToB:BoNS Melee characters have full attack be a standard action isn't gonna break the game, I promise you, if you haven't outright banned Non-heal bot clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Sorcerers, this won't even make the warriors as powerful as those classes, it will just make them lag a bit less behind.


Make it an additional class feature for any class that isn't a genuine spell caster, (Clerics and Druids don't get it, but Rangers and Paladins do. Make Bards and Rogues get it since Bards don't get full casting with out PrC tricks.)


Your players will thank you.

[tyckspoon]

I don't get it.

I believe he's referring to things like the attack you get at the end of a charge or in the middle of a Spring Attack, which are normally limited to the attack action or those special options that can sub for it (trip/disarm/sunder/start a grapple, etc.) Changing that to any Standard Action attack would allow you to instead perform a Manyshot, initiate a martial Strike, do a Pierce Magical Protection attack, or any of the other various 'do this as a standard action' means of attacking somebody that aren't basic weapon attacks.

[Godskook]

Which particular part of ToB would you be referring to here? I've read it and I'm not looking for a maneuver a player can have readied that they can use constantly I'm not quite sure which particular part you're referring to.

Likewise another reason for posting here was not knowing any guidelines specific to altering the standard action- attack, if you could direct me towards some that'd be great! I've looked at guide lines for making house rules in general but the Playground seems better for these specific questions.

Most strike maneuvers are standard actions. Quite a few give bonus attacks, such as wolf fang strike, steel wind, mithral tornado. Then there's boosts(swift-action) that also give additional attacks without forcing you into a full-attack, such as dancing mongoose and scything blade.

Building a warblade of the appropriate level and seeing how many attacks he can deal on a standard action and how reliably(3 consecutive rounds is pretty much an always-on thing), and that'll give you a good idea of what's 'balanced'.

[Greenish]

I believe he's referring to things like the attack you get at the end of a charge or in the middle of a Spring Attack, which are normally limited to the attack action or those special options that can sub for it (trip/disarm/sunder/start a grapple, etc.) Changing that to any Standard Action attack would allow you to instead perform a Manyshot, initiate a martial Strike, do a Pierce Magical Protection attack, or any of the other various 'do this as a standard action' means of attacking somebody that aren't basic weapon attacks.Ah, that makes sense. Using maneuvers on AoO would be fun.

[Xtomjames]

Rolling twice for every attack slows the game down, I should think. Besides, if Ref save is how fast a PC reacts, what's Initiative roll for?
Rolling twice doesn't slow it down, you just roll two dice at the same time, once for reflex and one for attack.

Secondly the Initiative is based on Dex, as is Reflex. Initiative is the Initial reaction, in game however reflex is how fast your character can react, it is how quickly you respond using your Reflexes. Its why certain things grant a Reflex save, to see if you move and react quickly enough not to be affected.

[Silva Stormrage]

Just a suggestion, you might want to let characters take this standard action full multiple attack maneuver (or whatever it ends up being) on a charge as well to help maneuverability a bit.