Statting a god to be killed: Tharizdun

[Katana_Geldar]

Ok, my current campaign, Tomb of Horrors, is going to go epic one of my players has decided to join heaven's order (kind of, it's complicated but godhood is what he seeks). I rather like this idea and it seems one of the ways to do this is to kill a god, thereby getting the gods attention and being invited to join the pantheon.
And the best candidate seems to be Tharizdun, as his character could easily take his place if he wins.
And there's the rub. I don't have much on this guy. Aside from the sidebars from his followers in MM3 and a short description in DMG, that's it in 4e. So I've had to do some extra digging and found the Dragon magazine where his prison is detailed (and that creates it's own problems).

But aside from that, I have to stat him. And not just stat him but give conditions on how he can be destroyed, like for Vecna or Lolth. Problem is, the gods themselves could not destroy Tharizdun, they could only contain him within that prison.

So any suggestions? The player has suggested that Tharizdun could be in a weakened state when he is set free, but even then he'll be formidable. And how can a player expect to kill him when the gods themselves could only contain him?

[Shatteredtower]

Technically, wouldn't taking his place be an attempt to contain him as well? That suggests possiblities. For the player character to survive the process and remain the one in control, never-before-attempted rituals and an exchange of epic level boons may be necessary to become both worthy vessel and viable prison.

You noted that the gods together could not kill him, but that may be because the gods didn't have the aid they need. If you were going to overcome a threat to the elemental chaos, perhaps it would be a good idea to seek aid from its original rulers, the primordials as well. The aid of the primal spirits, the ones that drove both gods and primordials from the world, may also be in order. Defeating the Ultimate Evil seems to call for the construction of the Ultimate Unlikely Alliance, an accomplishment that could rival or perhaps even overshadow the killing of a god.

You may decide that slaying several demon lords would be a required prelude to establishing cooperation or acquiring necessary tools. Demogorgon's hide might provide the mantle to bury a god's spirit within a formerly mortal vessel. Breaking Orcus' wand to release the tormented spirit within its skull might win more gods to your side, but it also contains the secrets necessary to bind an immortal to your service. I'm sure you can think of alternatives, but should probably limit yourself to a handful of candidates, lest the slaughter of demon lords exhaust your player's interest in this pursuit.

When it comes to negotiating with gods, the Raven Queen, Asmodeus, and Vecna are pretty much all required meetings: who better than a mortal that usurped a god's power over death, an angel that managed to kill his master and force the other gods to set him up as a replacement, and another mortal that transcended both life and undeath to become the god of secrets, especially the terrible ones? Impressing these three could take a lot of doing, and all of them might insist on a betrayal of the other two (or any other party you've involved)... before that would be convenient to your players. (The Raven Queen has very good reason to want the Head of Vecna, but would it be in anyone else's interests to give it to her? Asmodeus might just be happy if you were to return Grazzt to him alive without betraying anyone else for him, but the other concessions he's going to want would make him the most likely source for betrayal at a very awkward moment.) Leave the recruitment of other gods mostly to them... or else to skill challenges in which your party has to persuade the other gods to work with this unsavory lot (to say nothing of the person that wants to become the new Tharizdun).

As for primordials, Tharizdun's elemental princes to turn against him seems appropriate somehow. You might not wish to stop there, but you have to consider the danger of arc fatigue. Winning over one of them, then using that one to win over two others (with as much or as little force as you deem appropriate), the leaving the release and recruitment of other primordials to that lot

The primal spirits should probably be handled mainly by cosmic level skill challenge. I'm not talking about the DC of the tasks, but what they describe should include something on par with the level of fasting for a year and a day, knowing the name and trust of an unfathomable number of spirits, relieving mountains of their burdens, splicing toether winds long enough to make them listen to you. Failure will make the final battle somewhat harder, but you can eventually assume some level of cooperation from this front if the players at least put some effort into their tasks.

After all this, when the time comes for a final confrontation, I'd suggest that their opponent is something so vast and powerful that the players are only one of several forces facing it. Imagine needing every diabolic legion and its commanders, all the astral hosts, dozens (or hundreds) of primordials that the gods found too difficult to kill, and the largest accumulation of primal might ever assembled...all serving to divert attention from your party--who still have the greatest fight of all time on their hands.

...I realize this doesn't bring you any closer to statting the Big T out. Sorry. Hopefully, it does make it easier to justify limiting him to something you can see your party overcoming, and gives you enough room to make the task something worthy of a grand finale to this particular campaign. I know it might not all be to your liking; cannibalize the rest as you see fit.

[Surrealistik]

He'd have to be weakened, and even then I think a win is dubious. I'd stat him as an L40 Solo Brute in his weakened state; unweakened, the entire pantheon can't hope to defeat him, and his power is essentially beyond statting.

I had actually been working on coming up with crunch for him as a fun exercise (I honestly don't expect him to be defeated save for the most broken theory op builds) for my Enemies Beyond Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201262) thread as said L40 Solo Brute. I could continue with that if you like.

[Sipex]

Hey, I tried to do the same thing with a previous campaign and all I can say is kudos to you.

In the end, I went for having his avatar, the elemental eye, appear which the heroes would need to defeat to reseal his prison, not being able to slay the god himself.

That said, your best bet for statting him out would be to begin following the advice given here, have the heroes go through multiple trials gaining help, artifacts and rituals in order to weaken Tharizdun and bind him to a mortal body. Also, keep in mind the old lore about the 333 crystals which can be used to free him, maybe think of a way you can involve these crystals in the ritual. At 333 crystals, however, collecting them 1 by 1 is going to be tedious. Come up with around 5 things the party has to do to collect bunches of them (ie: Defeat a cult who has collected 130 of the crystals for example).

[Sipex]

Double post.

Another thing you could try is an indirect confrontation with the god. The party has an objective they have to complete while battling conjured minons by Tharizdun himself. Maybe a set of 3 objectives?

Blocking the final objective should be some sort of boss-like monster, like the elemental eye or maybe an evil god, like Orcus or Asmodeous shows up to try and usurp the PCs place at the last moment.

[Katana_Geldar]

Thank for you help, guys. There's quite a lot of good suggestions here. I thought there were only two elemental princes left, though: Imix and Ogremoch.
The 333 crystals I have read of somewhere, maybe getting them is a way to bring in Temple of Elemental Evil. I'm considering making destroying it (again) a requirement.
Assuming they finish ToH, there's a few things the PCs have in their favour:
First, they would have defeated Acererak. This gives them the Ye of Vecna and the flesh of several dead gods.
Second, they also have been to Pluton and know it's location. That's rather significant. Maybe even get some leverage over the Raven Queen.

Tharizdun's prison is interesting to consider when you look at the write up it had for 3.5. They said it was a demiplane within the Ethereal plane, that every round you had to make a Will save to not be drawn towards it, that touching it made it abosorb you so that only Wish or Miracle could get you out, and while inside you were in temporal stasis. And even if you got out, you were under a spell of insanity, again needing Wish or Miracle to get out of.
Frankly, the only one I know how to convert is the Will save, the prison attacks your will defence. Easy.
And there's finding the place. Not sure which gods actually imprisoned the guy, but I'm pretty sure Vecna would know where it is.

[Shatteredtower]

I thought there were only two elemental princes left, though: Imix and Ogremoch.

Well, that depends: Do you want there to be more? :smallwink:

Just remember: even if you do decide that there are more princes sealed away out there, it's not necessary for the players to gather them all by themselves, not when they've got such powerful allies to do it for them. Meetings with any of the others (or with other primordials and djinn they might gather along the way) can be handled as a light background touch or in as much depth as you and your group would prefer.


The 333 crystals I have read of somewhere, maybe getting them is a way to bring in Temple of Elemental Evil. I'm considering making destroying it (again) a requirement.

An iconic locale? Sounds like a promising addition, and like you've got good plans for it. Nice job of already laying out groundwork with that visit to Pluton.


Tharizdun's prison is interesting to consider when you look at the write up it had for 3.5. They said it was a demiplane within the Ethereal plane, that every round you had to make a Will save to not be drawn towards it, that touching it made it abosorb you so that only Wish or Miracle could get you out, and while inside you were in temporal stasis. And even if you got out, you were under a spell of insanity, again needing Wish or Miracle to get out of.

It's not often that a single hazard works well as an encounter all by itself. This one could do it. It should be less hazardous to a properly prepared group, but never safe.


Frankly, the only one I know how to convert is the Will save, the prison attacks your will defence.

Something like a burst 20 attack around the prison every round against Will, where targets hit are drawn several squares closer (and perhaps slowed [save ends] to make escape more difficult)?

Those prison should probably attack the Fortitude of those who have come into physical contact with it. Rather than absorbing them outright, you could have it do either an appropriate amount of damage for a single attack of its challenge level, or the appropriate damage for a burst attack at that level combined with the loss of a healing surge every time it hits. That might be a bit brutal, so proper preparation should soften the effect in one or more ways (less damage, lower attack modifiers, or no healing surge drain).

Those drained to 0 hit points (or 0 healing surges) would be absorbed into the prison... but not killed. If rescued, you could treat the victim as dominated until cured of the madness. This should not be as easy as it may sound, and it may be necessary to overcome the madness by degrees. For example, stage one of treatment could leave a character forced to make a saving throw to avoid being dazed until the start of the character's next turn whenever exposed to certain trigger conditions, whether an attack roll is involved or not. Stage two might make the target more susceptible to giving agents of Tharizdun with combat advantage against the character. Even with "full" recovery, player characters caught this way should remain marked by the experience in some way, giving Tharizdun some minor advantage against them that does not apply to those who were never so imprisoned.

(You might want to combine that with some sort of alternate reward for such players, something that reflects what they've endured. For example, the character might gain resist 15 psychic, except when subject to psychic attacks by Tharizdun, when the player's resistance would instead become vulnerable 15 (or perhaps 10).)


And there's finding the place. Not sure which gods actually imprisoned the guy, but I'm pretty sure Vecna would know where it is.

Yeah, Vecna definitely sounds like the go-to guy for that one.

I wouldn't rule out treachery (or hard bargaining) from the unaligned (or even good) gods. For example, I have this vision of Erathis trying to exploit this turn of events with an eye to turning Tharizdun (or his successor) into the foundation for a new Lattice of Heaven, ill-advised as that idea might be. As long as the players would have some way of identifying such dangers, this might be worth considering, as long as it doesn't tax either you or them too much in combination with everything else you'll all be juggling.

[Katana_Geldar]

Pluton isn't really my doing, it's part of ToH but it would be interesting what the players find there. The players have already "been there" through a plane shift, but I haven't revealed where this horrible place is.

I did show the player the Lattice of heaven thing, but my impression with the gods of 4e is that it's one big game of king of the mountain. You show you are powerful enough to be a threat and decide to let you into the club so you don't detsroy everything.
And he rather likes Tharizdun's old domain, Pandemonium.

And yeah, I'm making a water Elemental Prince now, the ultimate gelatinous cube! :smallbiggrin:

But how would the 333 gems help free Tharizdun? There's not much info about the gems but I am trying to get TOEE for more info. Shame it hasn't been adapted as well.

But all this is very long term, after the campaign is done (they're currently level 14 and it goes to level 22/23). The reason this has come up now is that I have asked all players to consider their epic destiny and their destiny quest, the sooner I know the sooner I can sow story seeds.

[Shatteredtower]

That seems a reasonable way to handle the gods.

I admit I don't know anything about the gems, but a few ideas come to mind. Perhaps each gem contain a portion of Tharizdun's power, stolen from him in the act of imprisonment. Assuming they've been scattered, those using their power now might not be well disposed toward giving them back, especially for the purpose the party has in mind. To complicate things, some of the gems might even be used for apparently benign purposes, though the results of their use may have corrupted both user and environment over time. (This could affect the players that take them as well. Excessive violence or treachery might make that more likely, as the bearer could be more open to Tharizdun's influence.)

Another option could be to have each gem contain one of 333 angels assigned to each keep a portion of the ritual holding Tharizdun in place. This would add another challenge to the party's goals: gaining the cooperation of 333 jailers to secure Tharizdun's release. The task should still be possible without their cooperation (in whole or part), but it should be harder.

Perhaps the 333 gems are a red herring designed to mislead cultists seeking to release their master, each melting away to reappear elsewhere when someone seeks to bring them to open Tharizdun's prison. Some, if not all of the gods might know of this, but unwilling to spill the secret until the PCs display their (supposed) worthiness. At this point, it might be possible to use any of the gems to lure one of the prison's real keys out to be captured. I might be overcomplicating things with this suggestion, though.

Another possibility is that it's not the gems themselves that are the key, but what each one represents. This isn't apparent when one only has one of the gems, but clues to their true nature might be divined as one accumulates larger and larger sets of them (3, 9, 37, 111, and 333, perhaps).

It may be that some of the gems no longer exist, forcing the players to somehow duplicate what it was. You might not have to bluff reality, exactly, though there will certainly be players that would love to be given the chance, but they might also enjoy challenges such as rebuilding stones with names such as the First Lie, the Unvoiced Scream, the Horizon's Intersection, or such.

Going back a bit to an earlier idea, it could be that these stones are in fact the fragmented remnants of Tharizdun's mind. He won't be sane even if they're restored to him, but their return (and reconstruction) would give him a sense of focus for the first time in eons, rather than purposelessly lashing out at anything, friend or foe, real or imagined.

...Well, there go my hopes of getting peaceful sleep tonight. :smalltongue:

[Katana_Geldar]

Perhaps the 333 gems are a red herring designed to mislead cultists seeking to release their master, each melting away to reappear elsewhere when someone seeks to bring them to open Tharizdun's prison. Some, if not all of the gods might know of this, but unwilling to spill the secret until the PCs display their (supposed) worthiness. At this point, it might be possible to use any of the gems to lure one of the prison's real keys out to be captured. I might be overcomplicating things with this suggestion, though.


I rather like this idea, actually. As it does explain why he's been in his prison for so long and people not being able to do anything about it.

But as far as I am aware, some of the gods who imprisoned Tharizdun are long dead or changed. Amoth, He Who Was and perhaps even Io. Pelor is supposed to be involved, though.

[BobTheDog]

Going back a bit to an earlier idea, it could be that these stones are in fact the fragmented remnants of Tharizdun's mind. He won't be sane even if they're restored to him, but their return (and reconstruction) would give him a sense of focus for the first time in eons, rather than purposelessly lashing out at anything, friend or foe, real or imagined.

Ah, Tharizdun, the Malkav of DnD. :smallbiggrin:

Reading the thread, I'm not too keen on the 333 gems part of the story. If you go for the "gather the gems from groups who already have a bunch", it would make more sense to instead say they need 3 (5? 6?) gems and have each quest yield 1 gem, instead of giving them 101 + 122 + 110 gems.

What I would do in your shoes is cook up a plot where the PCs have to stop someone else (i.e. mad cultists) from getting the final gems (they have n-1 gems, where n will release Thary). Since you liked the idea of using the prison as a trap/challenge, I suggest that the PCs find a way to enter Thary's prison without getting trapped in temporal stasis and defeat him in there (where he would not be as astoundingly deadly as if he were set free by mad cultists). So all the steps suggested earlier (bargaining with Vecna is always fun... :smalleek:) would be aimed at finding/breaking into Thary's cell, and not breaking him out of there.

IF you're feeling ambitious, make the whole cell/Thary fight something where only the PC who wants to be Thary enters the cell, and all the others have to stay outside fighting minions or the cell. Make it so that there are some meteors floating around nearby for some nice Epic space-elf fight. :smallbiggrin:

[Katana_Geldar]

I had actually been working on coming up with crunch for him as a fun exercise (I honestly don't expect him to be defeated save for the most broken theory op builds) for my Enemies Beyond Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201262) thread as said L40 Solo Brute. I could continue with that if you like.

I'll be interested if you manage to do Tharizdun, as statting monsters isn't really my thing. I'm more a storyteller, as you may have guessed.

Getting into the prison...not so sure about that as I am thinking of what the place was designed for in the first place.

[LaZodiac]

Concerning the Elemental Princes, you could always use the other Primordials we've been shown. The big lightning wyrm, for instance. And I believe the Elemental Chaos book, or one of the plane ones anyway, has the Ice/Water Primordial.

Also, another idea to getting rid of all Tharizdun. Find a way to temporarly open a plan to that alternate dimension where the Abysal Plague Demons come from, and have it suck him in. Let the Bringer of Chaos fight eternal againest the Plague.

[Katana_Geldar]

I haven't seen that Primoridal, I'll have to check it out in my Planes Below book.

BTW, what gods actually have stats in 4e? So far I have found:

* Bahamut - Metallic Dragons
* Tiamat - Chromatic Dragons
* Lolth - MM3
* Vecna - Open Grave

Any I am missing?

[Asklepian]

Maglubiyet - Dragon 372
Torog - Underdark

Those are the only other ones I found, and Maglubiyet is debatable, since he's an exarch/demigod thing now.

[Katana_Geldar]

Thanks, that's why I haven't put Demagorgon and Orcus on the list. They don't have the Divine Discorporation thing.

[LaZodiac]

They also stated the two Aspects of Bane, but not yet Bane himself, unfortunatly.

[Katana_Geldar]

Been looking through The Plane Below and I know I have to bring The Crystal of Ebon Flame into this somehow. Particularly how the character is a fire wizard.

[Surrealistik]

Completed stage 1 for the most part; still needs some tweaking though:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11871083#post11871083

[LudiDrizzt]

Remembered I had two party members that peruse this forum. If you're interested in what I did, PM me. I have a fight in mind already involving Tharizdun for the finale of my 4 year campaign.

[Sipex]

That's a pretty nice stat-up. Has he been tested yet? I'm not familiar with Epic tier play so I don't know how lethal he is there.

[LudiDrizzt]

Honestly, from a game-design standpoint, I disagree completely. It's not a good set-up. It's going to instant-kill even optimized PCs the way its powers work, with very little they can do to stop it.

And if they do optimize to stop it, then they will walk all over the stat-block. Really doesn't solve any game-design problems. You're just encouraging a huge game of rocket tag.

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, from a game-design standpoint, I disagree completely. It's not a good set-up. It's going to instant-kill even optimized PCs the way its powers work, with very little they can do to stop it.

And if they do optimize to stop it, then they will walk all over the stat-block. Really doesn't solve any game-design problems. You're just encouraging a huge game of rocket tag.

Obliterate has been revised to require charge build up; this is the only power that can insta-kill even optimized PCs. In this way, it acts as more of a timer or clock that the party has to beat, imposing a harrowing time pressure.

Second, you don't need to specifically build a party against it to win, though, as with anything that obviously helps. If you plan on using control effects, you'll be making use of the save penalization that the majority of optimized controllers use anyways for example. The only thing that an optimized party should strongly consider doing that it might not otherwise make a priority is pumping up saving throws as high as possible.

Third, even if you build against it, it will still prove difficult. Even if you're a radiant mafia with tons of saving throw bonuses, it will still be hard (albeit obviously and significantly less so) to beat.

[Katana_Geldar]

I rather like the instant kill, but I'd make it and encounter-only that will re-charge when bloodied. Tharizdun needs to be very powerful by his very nature.

[Sipex]

Yeah, I thought he was too powerful as well...at first. Then I remembered, after Tharizdun, there is no other boss. Tharizdun can only be the final campaign boss so the loss of a PC (or several) is something which should be a very real risk.

[Surrealistik]

Obliterate now requires 3 charge counters to use, which means it won't be used until the third round unless a creature dies before then.

Practically, Recharge 6+ is = to Encounter; it is only likely to recharge on the 4th recharge roll (roughly a ~52% chance). The point of making it Recharge 6+ is to prevent or make extremely dangerous the use of stall/time inefficient tactics.

[Yourshallowpal]

Oh, hey, and I can't quite glean whether or not you're stills sticking with the 333 crystals or not. But if you are, I believe it says somewhere that Pelor is holding a few of them, in secret, in his realm specifically to keep them from Erathis.

One thought may be to not REQUIRE the crystals. However, every 50-60 crystals will lower Tharizdun's level/powers by one. (Therefore, they can choose a gauntlet of fetch-quests and skill challenges versus various divinities to fight a squishier, lvl 30-35 Tharizdun, or skip all that and try to take him without the gems, when he's lvl 40 and still has a couple instant-kill powers.)

The only real advantage of the above, however, is it would give your characters to freedom to determine the risk-level. If they hurry, and attack Tharizdun while he is grossly overpowered, you can just shrug and say their new characters might want to go rock-collecting. (And give them the option to sacrifice a character or two so the rest of the party can escape and try again, if TPK still feels brutal.)

As for Tharizdun himself, if I'm struggling with a solo "Boss," I usually just have him split/summon allies. It makes the math/balancing easier. He could just divide into 3-4 "aspects," for example, each one representing a different element.

[Surrealistik]

Tharizdun's stage 2 incarnation is complete, and the stage 1 incarnation has been given the transitional power, Aspect of Annihilation.

EDIT: Linky: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11871083&postcount=25

[Sipex]

Tharizdun is a beast.

I'm curious if anyone can actually beat his current incarnation.

Also, does he have any discorporation rules yet? I see that he can discorporate (as a god it's kind of a built in thing) but are there any rules around how to prevent him from discorporating or is that a campaign by campaign basis?

[LudiDrizzt]

If we assume that you need a domain to discorporate into, as seems to be the case, then no, he wouldn't be able to discorporate, as he has nowhere to return.

Also, your 2nd stage Tharizdun is countered by like a single item. I can see everyone in the party having regeneration equal to their healing surge value easily for that fight.

That doesn't make it a bad stat block, for the record. That's not what I'm saying. Also doesn't make it a good stat block. In fact, nothing makes it a good stat block. But the reason I outlined above isn't why it's bad.

[Sipex]

You should post your constructive critcism in the thread that's housing the statblock.

I assume that's what you're going to do anyways but I'm pre-empting people retorting so they don't assume you're just bashing it for no reason.

edit: I mean your additional problems with the current incarnation. The regen hole you already stated.

Although that could be left in as a valid strategy.

edit2: Ah! I see you already posted some in short on there already.

[Surrealistik]

If we assume that you need a domain to discorporate into, as seems to be the case, then no, he wouldn't be able to discorporate, as he has nowhere to return.

Also, your 2nd stage Tharizdun is countered by like a single item. I can see everyone in the party having regeneration equal to their healing surge value easily for that fight.

That doesn't make it a bad stat block, for the record. That's not what I'm saying. Also doesn't make it a good stat block. In fact, nothing makes it a good stat block. But the reason I outlined above isn't why it's bad.

Incorrect. I know of this item; that's one of the reasons Tharizdun's aura negates regaining hit points while one of his effects are active on a player. It will make the fight _easier_ but it will hardly shut it down, or counter the second form in any way (it can also be turned against the player with Salvation to Destruction).

Also, you do not need a domain to discorporate to; all discorporation means is that the deity is weakened and cannot manifest in physical form for a duration.

[LudiDrizzt]

Incorrect. I know of this item; that's one of the reasons Tharizdun's aura negates regaining hit points while one of his effects are active on a player. It will make the fight _easier_ but it will hardly shut it down, or counter the second form in any way (it can also be turned against the player with Salvation to Destruction).

Also, you do not need a domain to discorporate to; all discorporation means is that the deity is weakened and cannot manifest in physical form for a duration.

And you don't think you need to be able to go SOMEWHERE when you discorporate? Where do you think the deity's essence goes if not their domain?

[Surrealistik]

And you don't think you need to be able to go SOMEWHERE when you discorporate? Where do you think the deity's essence goes if not their domain?

Anywhere it likes (or at least is not forbidden from), domain being simply a preference; it is not a phylactery equivalent.