Ravening Dragon and Metabreath feats?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Metabreath feats increase the duration between your breath attack recharge but the ravening template (Dragon 313 pg. 77) lets you use your breath weapon three consecutive rounds before you have to have it recharge (not the exact wording). How would you handle these two in combination?

[Saintheart]

Is it any different to the various tricks for reducing metamagic spell level costs? My interpretation would be the Dragon magic feat basically does break metabreath, but I would go on to say that you still have to pay the cost for the meta'd breath. Thus, the recharge time after breathing the third consecutive breath is tripled from the cost of the meta'd breath.

E.g. if an Enlarge Breath increases the recharge time by 2 rounds (AFB, just for example) then combining these two means you do get your 3 consecutive meta'd breaths, but you then wait 6 rounds before you can breathe again.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

That is how I read it as well. With that reading you can use your breath attack as many times in a turn as your DM will allow free actions. Quicken Breath turns your breath attack into a free action for +4 rounds to recharge and since it doesn't have to recharge for three turns you can just spam it as many times as free actions you are allowed.

[Munchkin-Masher]

I actually there's something about meta-breath feats i've always found odd, as far as i can tell there is no upper limit to how many times you can stack the feats, so the ones the stack with themselves (e.g. clinging breath) seem to be automatic kills.

Am i wrong?

[tyckspoon]

I actually there's something about meta-breath feats i've always found odd, as far as i can tell there is no upper limit to how many times you can stack the feats, so the ones the stack with themselves (e.g. clinging breath) seem to be automatic kills.

Am i wrong?

Well, not automatic kills because Clinging is a damage-over-time which allows for responding to it, but yeah, you can make some pretty nasty breath attacks. I like the Maximize-Heighten-Clinging combo. Full damage breath at a near-unbeatable save (anything focusing on breath attacks should be able to use Heighten to get between 5-12 extra DC on it, plus being based on a focused stat already), and then it does half-max-damage for however many rounds you want it to cling. Particularly silly if the Clinging part of it inherits the Heightened DC to remove it. Sure, you can't breath again for like 3 minutes, but you really shouldn't need to.

[Keld Denar]

Heighten Breath does have a built in cap. You can't increase the DC to higher than your Con bonus. So, essentially it allows you to get +2x your Con bonus to DCs at the expense of a really long recharge.

For most mid CR dragons, thats not too bad. For really really high CR dragons, if you are facing them without complete immunity to their breath of choice, you might want to consider a safer profession. I hear Underwater Basketweaving is a noble endeavor.

[Circle of Life]

I actually there's something about meta-breath feats i've always found odd, as far as i can tell there is no upper limit to how many times you can stack the feats, so the ones the stack with themselves (e.g. clinging breath) seem to be automatic kills.

Am i wrong?

Technically no, but it's almost assured that you will place a sanity cap on it after seeing a dragon toast the near side of your planet from orbit with a stacked Enlarge Breath BW.

[Munchkin-Masher]

Hmm, well what do you know.

So a Great wyrm red dragon could take a single Spreading Maximized Enlarged Heightened Lingering Clinging breath, modify it with the breath spell Deafening Breath, and deal 240 fire damage + 240 sonic damage to everything on the planet, cover the entire planet in an (effectively) permanent blanket of fire and sonic energy that deals 120+120 damage each turn, with a DC of 50 to take half damage, and it would also permanently deafen anyone who failed their save.

Sounds boss.

[peacenlove]

Sadly mountains and other obstacles would block line of effect.
So fly to orbit and scorch half the planet from there?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If we are talking a cloud of obrital death, the spell Enervating Breath adds 2d4 negative levels to your breath attack so you can cover half the world in a sonic-firestorm that deals negative levels to everything inside of it every turn.

[Saintheart]

The reason that dragons don't do this, of course, is because the fire breath would also melt down all the gold and the sonic firestorm would break all the crystalline treasures to be had. :smallbiggrin:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

The reason that dragons don't do this, of course, is because the fire breath would also melt down all the gold and the sonic firestorm would break all the crystalline treasures to be had. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, but what better treasure is there than an entire planet?

[Circle of Life]

Yes, but what better treasure is there than an entire planet?

An entire planet that isn't a lifeless heap of glass and charred rock?

On the other hand, glass deserts sound like an interesting campaign setting.

[Saintheart]

Yes, but what better treasure is there than an entire planet?

Remember, dragons like to count their hoard. If your treasure is an entire planet, there's not much fun there. You just count "one", and you're done. :smallfrown: :smallbiggrin:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Remember, dragons like to count their hoard. If your treasure is an entire planet, there's not much fun there. You just count "one", and you're done. :smallfrown: :smallbiggrin:

Well they still have the gold and magical item and what-not but in that counting they can also chalk up one planet. And since they like to count their hoard, that is more incentive to conquer more planets.

[Runestar]

I would rule that it only ignores the base delay from the breath weapon, and the extra delay from metabreath feats still apply. So if you quickened your breath, you need to wait for 4 rounds (Though you can opt to breathe normally or maximise it first, then quicken). Who cares if you can't use it again before combat ends? You hopefully have done enough damage, and can mop up with your melee attack routine. :smallamused:

[Andorax]

My take on it is that the dragon automatically "rolls a 1" for the next two times he uses his breath, as long as they're consecutive rounds.

Which, with normal breaths, would be:

Round 1: breathe, roll a 1.
Round 2: breathe, roll a 1.
Round 3: breathe again, now has to roll normally.

To take Empower as an example (+2 rounds)

Round 1: breathe empowered, roll a 1. Delay is 3 rounds.
Round 4: breathe normal or empowered, roll a 1. (as long as the dragon breathes in round 4, he gets a second "free 1" on his roll.


Probably much more RAI than RAW, but it seems to make reasonable balance-sense.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I want to see a Dragonborn of Bahamaut build focusing on Heart ability and meta-breath feats (and any other ways to gain extra breath attacks.)

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!?pg=1

Look at the bottom of the page, there should be a small list. Also the Dragonspawn template gives you a breath attack as does being a half-dragon.


EDIT:

Also here is the ability on a ravening dragon I am talking about:

"Unnatural Power (Su): A ravening dragon may use its breath weapon on 3 consecutive rounds, then it must wait the usual 1d4 rounds before using it for another 3 consecutive rounds. The save DC against its breath weapon increases by +2."

[Saintheart]

Well they still have the gold and magical item and what-not but in that counting they can also chalk up one planet. And since they like to count their hoard, that is more incentive to conquer more planets.

"Right, how much loot do I have today? Planets ... one. Melted piles of gold ... um, one, covering half a hemisphere. Magic items which made their saves against the damage of a dragon's maximised breath ... hmmm, none, except this one little golden ring that has some cool writing on it when I breathe on it. Gems not turned back into black, crispy cubes or otherwise turned into glass ... hmmm, none. Oh, well, off to Mars now." :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

I approve of this idea in conjunction with a Dragonshaman Kobold for high damage blasting.

[Keld Denar]

And somewhere on that glassed planet are a handful of Rogues, Monks, and Swordsages who managed to roll a nat 20 vs the breath weapon and evaded all of it (slipped into "roguespace").

[flabort]

"oh, yeah. Forgot to count how many magic items slipped into Roguespace. Lets just squish those pesky survivors and... oh, wait. My breath weapons ready again."
**Whooooooooooosh**
"Magic Items? Still none. Pluto next."

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Wouldn't the Magic Items in dungeons be safe because of the whole line of effect thing? Also, how much exp would killing an entire planet be worth?