Mind Blank vs. Universal Energy Resistance

[Aerlock]

I'm having a conundrum in itemization for a 20th level character. Do I go for a ring of universal energy immunity resistance from the MIC or do I get the Third Eye Conceal for a constant Mind Blank? What is more important for a 20th level character to have?

Also in this mix is if I get the Mind Blank item I will have a feat open up since I will no longer be able to take Craven. This will lose me about 140+ pts of damage a round on a full attack since I'm a twf throwing rogue. So I guess the question I'm actually asking is:

Does 140+ pts of damage a round and Universal Energy Immunity resistance count for more than Mind Blank and all the immunities that entails?

- Aerlock

P.S. If it matters I have a Reflex save in the mid 30's (still working on gear) and a Will save under 20, so the evasion will be likely kicking in frequently and the will saves will likely be failing frequently. (Especially with my bad dice luck)

[Ravens_cry]

Mind Blank. I hate the spell on principle, I don't like any single skill set be completely shut down by a single spell, but Energy spells will (mostly) just kill you and your saves are better prepared for it. Will saves can kill you and kill your friends through your actions.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) The ring of universal energy resistance isn't even that great a choice, especially considering you have Evasion. The greater ring is 180k for resistance 30, whereas a spellcaster can get continual immunity to all five energy types and +6 to his saves for only 47k and two 6th level spell slots/day.

See if your DM will let you consider the 'cannot be immune to fear' prerequisite for Craven to be one of its effects as well. That will allow you to still use the feat even with Mind Blank or similar, though you would still be subject to fear effects.

[Psyren]

Also in this mix is if I get the Mind Blank item I will have a feat open up since I will no longer be able to take Craven.

Amusingly, Mind Blank doesn't actually make you immune to fear; it makes you immune to mind-affecting, which fear effects just happen to be. It's a fine distinction, but one you may be able to squeeze past your DM to keep Craven.

[Fouredged Sword]

There are some non mind effecting fear effects. Specificly mundane fear effects don't have the mind effecting tag if memory serves me right (afb right now)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Amusingly, Mind Blank doesn't actually make you immune to fear; it makes you immune to mind-affecting, which fear effects just happen to be. It's a fine distinction, but one you may be able to squeeze past your DM to keep Craven.

Good catch! If a given fear effect also happens to be mind-affecting, then you're immune to that particular fear effect, but you are not immune to fear effects in general and thus you still qualify for the feat! Pretty much every fear effect in the game is also mind-affecting, but it's still not a sweeping immunity to fear so you should be able to keep Craven while being able to ignore most of the fear effects you encounter.

[Drachasor]

Amusingly, Mind Blank doesn't actually make you immune to fear; it makes you immune to mind-affecting, which fear effects just happen to be. It's a fine distinction, but one you may be able to squeeze past your DM to keep Craven.

This is true in a more literal way. Mind Blank does not make you immune to Frightful Presence (it is not labeled as a mind affecting effect). "Mind Affecting" is typically a label placed on certain spell-like and supernatural abilities, so it really doesn't make you immune to fear, just certain causes of fear.

[Vandicus]

As others have pointed out, you don't need to lose Craven when you wear the Mind Blank item. So Mind Blank item>Universal Energy Immunity in this case.

The real question is whether its worth the expenditure. Evasion and good reflex saves are a much cheaper stand in for a ring of universal energy immunity in most cases, and similarly there are ways to avoid being mind controlled.

[Psyren]

This is true in a more literal way. Mind Blank does not make you immune to Frightful Presence (it is not labeled as a mind affecting effect). "Mind Affecting" is typically a label placed on certain spell-like and supernatural abilities, so it really doesn't make you immune to fear, just certain causes of fear.

That depends on whether Frightful Presence counts an "attack" or not. But even if it does, you still aren't "immune to fear."

Like I said, a fine distinction, and I could use a shower for even mentioning it :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

So if you are immune to Mind Affecting effects, you are immune to all Fear subtype effects by extension. Since you are immune to Fear, you do not benefit from Craven. Its a simple logical extension. Sorry.

[Drachasor]

That depends on whether Frightful Presence counts an "attack" or not. But even if it does, you still aren't "immune to fear."

Like I said, a fine distinction, and I could use a shower for even mentioning it :smalltongue:

I don't follow:

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Whether it is an attack or not doesn't matter. It's not remotely a fine distinction. Frightful Presence is not a mind-affecting effect, nor a device, nor a spell, so Mind Blank doesn't help.


Edit: I missed that part at the beginning of the SRD on fear effects (just looked at Frightful presence). Seems like Mind Blank DOES make you immune to all fear then.

[Psyren]

Whether it is an attack or not doesn't matter. It's not remotely a fine distinction. Frightful Presence is not a mind-affecting effect, nor a device, nor a spell, so Mind Blank doesn't help.

It's due to this line: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear)


All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.

So if FP is an attack, it is indeed mind-affecting, whether or not the FP entry specifically calls it out as such.

Again, this shouldn't invalidate the loophole itself, and indeed could be a good thing for the mind blanked character, whose protection extends to attacks that aren't specifically called out as being mind-affecting.

[Vandicus]

So if FP is an attack, it is indeed mind-affecting, whether or not the FP entry specifically calls it out as such.


I personally believe that Frightful Presence is not an attack, but rather an automatic effect from the creature's presence. We could post this in the Q&A thread.

[Keld Denar]

What consitutes as an attack isn't really defined anywhere, but Invisibility gives us a pretty good clue. Things that affect a target directly are an attack. Things that affect a foe indirectly (such as summoning a monster which then attacks a foe) are generally not attacks. Since all fear effects directly affect foes, I think its safe to extrapolate that they are all "attacks".

[Drachasor]

So if FP is an attack, it is indeed mind-affecting, whether or not the FP entry specifically calls it out as such.

Again, this shouldn't invalidate the loophole itself, and indeed could be a good thing for the mind blanked character, whose protection extends to attacks that aren't specifically called out as being mind-affecting.

FP is under "Fear", and it is pretty clear from that section that anything which causes fear is a "fear attack" -- the section itself labels fear-inducing effects as attacks.

[Vandicus]

What consitutes as an attack isn't really defined anywhere, but Invisibility gives us a pretty good clue. Things that affect a target directly are an attack. Things that affect a foe indirectly (such as summoning a monster which then attacks a foe) are generally not attacks. Since all fear effects directly affect foes, I think its safe to extrapolate that they are all "attacks".

Query: Do you believe that a dragon using the sanctuary spell can't use frightful presence(by snarling) without breaking sanctuary?

*EDIT
I'd also like to add
"All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects"

Fear attacks are not the same as fear effects. The passage itself makes the distinction. Fear attacks are a sub section of fear effects.

[Keld Denar]

Yup. A dragon would have to suppress it's Frightening Presence to benefit from Sanctuary. Now, if instead of Frightening Presence, the dragon had a different aura like a Bolstering Presence, it would not break Sanctuary, since its a buff and not an attack. FP is, however, an attack and would break Invis, Santuary, etc.

*EDIT
I'd also like to add
"All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects"

Fear attacks are not the same as fear effects. The passage itself makes the distinction. Fear attacks are a sub section of fear effects.
If this were so, why wouldn't there be a subsection for "Fear Attacks" like there is for "Fear Aura"? Because there is no distinction. All fear abilities, effects, attacks, cones, rays, bedonkles, whatevers, are ALL lumped into the catagory of "Fear Effects". And all Fear effects are Mind Affecting. Period.

[Psyren]

FP is under "Fear", and it is pretty clear from that section that anything which causes fear is a "fear attack" -- the section itself labels fear-inducing effects as attacks.

Now you're confusing me - do you think Frightful Presence is mind-affecting or not? :smallconfused: You started with "no" but the above quote is a pretty clear "yes."

[Drachasor]

Now you're confusing me - do you think Frightful Presence is mind-affecting or not? :smallconfused: You started with "no" but the above quote is a pretty clear "yes."

Note my edit above, I changed my mind. The rules seem quite clear that all fear effects are mind affecting fear attacks.

[Vandicus]

Yup. A dragon would have to suppress it's Frightening Presence to benefit from Sanctuary.
Dragons can do that? What are the rules on suppressing Frightening Presence?

*EDIT

Also I retract my belief that its not mind-effecting. Draconomicon establishes that it is.

*EDIT 2
Still don't think it should break sanctuary.

*EDIT 3

Of more relevance, Rules Compendium further states that all fear effects are mind-affecting. In which case Mind Blank DOES cost him his ability to use craven. That significantly nerfs the attractiveness of the item.

[Aerlock]

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) The ring of universal energy resistance isn't even that great a choice, especially considering you have Evasion. The greater ring is 180k for resistance 30, whereas a spellcaster can get continual immunity to all five energy types and +6 to his saves for only 47k and two 6th level spell slots/day.

Thanks for the correction, I even had it written down as Resistance on the sheet I was looking at right before posting.

I had looked over that post previously which is what prompted the dilemma, as I had decided to go for the energy resistance. What does a spellcaster do to get the continual immunity and +6 to saves?

- Aerlock

[Flickerdart]

The +6 to saves is probably Superior Resistance, which lasts 24 hours and is awesome. No idea about the other stuff.

[Psyren]

In which case Mind Blank DOES cost him his ability to use craven.

That would be RAI, not quite RAW.

It's worth arguing; if he gets a "no" he's right back where he started after all.

[Keld Denar]

That would be RAI, not quite RAW.

How so?

A) All Fear effects are Mind Affecting.

B) Mind Blank gives you immunity to all Mind Affecting effects

C) Therefore, Mind Blank gives you immunity to all Fear effects.

It doesn't have to explain it because its implied. Just like ever place that talks about melee attacks doesn't say "add your Str to your BAB". It says it once in the section on attacks, and then that is propagated throughout the rest of the rules even if its not explicitly stated each time.

It is RAW.

[Vandicus]

It is RAW.

I also think this(now). Its hierarchical like daze-stun. Stun immunity is daze immunity, immunity from mind-affecting is immunity from fear effects.

[Ernir]

I agree with getting Mind Blank. A juiced-up Will save or something might cut it if getting Dominated was the only concern, but I'd be more worried about my enemies using Discern Location and such.


Dragons can do that? What are the rules on suppressing Frightening Presence?

You don't suppress it, you just don't take the steps required to activate it. "The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead."


Its hierarchical like daze-stun. Stun immunity is daze immunity
I have seen no evidence towards this. Where do you get it from? :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

I also think this(now). Its hierarchical like daze-stun. Stun immunity is daze immunity, immunity from mind-affecting is immunity from fear effects.

Wait what?

No. NOTHING is immune to Daze. Well, almost nothing. There are only like, 3 ways to get immunity to Daze. You can Daze Elementals, Constructs, Undead, etc. Constructs are immune to Stun, but they can be Dazed, for sure.

Now, MANY Daze effects are explicitly Mind Affecting, which immunity to Mind Affecting would protect you from, but some Daze effects, like Blasphemy, are not.

Back on topic of the OP...instead of trying to get A or B, consider C: Immunity to [Death] and other negative effects. Soulfire Armor is a MUST at level 20 (and often much much much earlier).

[JaronK]

There are some non mind effecting fear effects. Specificly mundane fear effects don't have the mind effecting tag if memory serves me right (afb right now)

Not true, it's in the definition of fear effects that fear is always mind affecting. If you're immune to mind affecting, you are automatically immune to fear.

To the OP: if you want mental immunity, consider going Necropolitan. It's an applied template and it's MUCH cheaper to add than other similiar effects, and if you're made by either a UA Variant Necromancer or Dread Necromancer in a Desecrated area, that's D12+4 HP/HD, which is likely an improvement. Also, you'd get a +4 enhancement bonus to str and dex, which probably doesn't matter much at level 20 but it might help your strength a bit. Just be sure to disguise yourself as being living to avoid specific anti undead tricks.

JaronK

[Vandicus]

Wait what?

No. NOTHING is immune to Daze. Well, almost nothing. There are only like, 3 ways to get immunity to Daze. You can Daze Elementals, Constructs, Undead, etc. Constructs are immune to Stun, but they can be Dazed, for sure.



Maybe I'm imagining it, but I thought I saw it somewhere as being a weaker form of stun much like shaken is weaker than panicked. I'll see if I can find it.
*EDIT

I think I was just imagining it. Mixing some of that pesky 4.0 stuff I learned for a very brief time.

[Aharon]

@Fear is always mind-affecting
Logically, one exception would be enough to undo the conclusion, wouldn't it?

The Horrific Aura of the Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) is a fear effect that isn't mind-affecting, as far as I can see.

[Keld Denar]

Nope, Daze and Stun are very different. Stun is a little bit stronger, in that you are forced to drop whatever it was you were holding, but its also easier to protect against. Daze simply makes you lose your action, but the only way I can think of off the top of my head to become immune to Daze is with the spell "Favor of the Martyr" in Spell Compenium (which is a reprint of Favor of Illmater from some Faerun book). There are a few other ways to remove Daze, like Quick Recovery and a Third Eye: Clarity (LoM and MIC respectively), but to actually be immune explicitly to Daze? No.

As I stated, many, if not most, daze effects are mental, especially those that come from spells. Some, however, are not, like the above mentioned Blasphemy, or the effects of Boomerang Daze or Dazing Strike (ECS and ToB respectively).

[RedWarrior0]

@Fear is always mind-affecting
Logically, one exception would be enough to undo the conclusion, wouldn't it?

The Horrific Aura of the Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror) is a fear effect that isn't mind-affecting, as far as I can see.

If it specifically states it isn't mind-affecting, then specific trumps general and it isn't. If it doesn't, then it's mind affecting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What does a spellcaster do to get the continual immunity and +6 to saves?

Get a 6th level Pearl of Power and a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend. Prepare the spell Energy Immunity twice, use the pearl to cast it three times, use the rod to make them last 48 hours, so you only need to do that every other day. On the days you don't do that, prepare Energy Immunity once and Superior Resistance once, cast those and use the pearl to cast Energy Immunity again, all with the rod to make them last 48 hours. That's Energy Immunity x5, one for every energy type, and Superior Resistance, all continually active. It only takes two 6th level spell slots per day and those two items.

[Ernir]

the only way I can think of off the top of my head to become immune to Daze is with the spell "Favor of the Martyr" in Spell Compenium (which is a reprint of Favor of Illmater from some Faerun book). There are a few other ways to remove Daze, like Quick Recovery and a Third Eye: Clarity (LoM and MIC respectively), but to actually be immune explicitly to Daze? No.

There are a few more ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10449509&postcount=46), but they tend to be difficult.

[Aharon]

Seems today is a day of misremembering for me :smallconfused:

The exact text is


This touch attack, unlike the standard aura, functions against creatures of any HD and can even affect individuals normally immune to fear.

so it is mind-affecting, but effects creatures who are immune to mind-affecting, because many of them are only immune to fear because they are immune to mind-affecting?

[Keld Denar]

Yes. Normally, Mind Blank (and simple Fear immunity) trumps all Fear effects. This ability explicitly trumps that immunity.

Immunity holds true in ALL cases EXCEPT those that explicitly avoid it.

[Psyren]

It doesn't have to explain it because its implied. Just like ever place that talks about melee attacks doesn't say "add your Str to your BAB". It says it once in the section on attacks, and then that is propagated throughout the rest of the rules even if its not explicitly stated each time.

It is RAW.

I agree with you and am usually against this kind of hair-splitting myself. All I will point out is that the Mind Blank spell doesn't specifically say "fear effects" and that the OP has nothing to lose by raising this point to his DM, and leave it at that.

[Drachasor]

I agree with you and am usually against this kind of hair-splitting myself. All I will point out is that the Mind Blank spell doesn't specifically say "fear effects" and that the OP has nothing to lose by raising this point to his DM, and leave it at that.

That's like saying you aren't immune to fire even though you are immune to all damage. It's flat-out wrong.

Mind Blank doesn't have to say "fear effects" because they are a subtype of mind-affecting effects.

Next you'll be saying squares aren't rectangles.

[Keld Denar]

It doesn't have to say it explicitly. Its directly implied.

To say otherwise would indicate that an Undead could take Craven.


Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


It doesn't explicitly state anywhere there that undead are immune to Fear. They are, however, immune to Mind Affecting abilities and list a few examples (non-all-inclusive list). By extension, though, since ALL Fear effects are Mind Affecting, Undead are immune to Fear.

A character with Mind Blank couldn't take Craven any more than an Undead could. Both are implicitly immune to Fear.

[MeeposFire]

In ToB they have a line defining an attack among other things as something that forces a saving throw.

[Psyren]

That's like saying you aren't immune to fire even though you are immune to all damage. It's flat-out wrong.

Mind Blank doesn't have to say "fear effects" because they are a subtype of mind-affecting effects.

Next you'll be saying squares aren't rectangles.

All of this would be wonderfully relevant if you were his DM.

[Drachasor]

All of this would be wonderfully relevant if you were his DM.

Just saying your point isn't RAW.

[Psyren]

Sure, whatever, if that makes you feel better why not. Not arguing the point further.

[Zale]

So If I take random commoner #624, slap a Mind Blank ring on him and dangle him off a cliff, he won't be scared? :smallconfused:

[Drachasor]

So If I take random commoner #624, slap a Mind Blank ring on him and dangle him off a cliff, he won't be scared? :smallconfused:

Correct.

Does that shock you? We're talking about a level of spells that can turn people into rocks and trap their souls in gems.

I don't have the Rules Compendium on me, but Undead and other entries in the SRD indicates you're immune to hope, bravery, and the like as well (moral bonuses do not affect you).

[Vandicus]

Correct.

Does that shock you? We're talking about a level of spells that can turn people into rocks and trap their souls in gems.

I don't have the Rules Compendium on me, but Undead and other entries in the SRD indicates you're immune to hope, bravery, and the like as well (moral bonuses do not affect you).

According to what I can find in PHBII, and a person kind enough to point it out to me on the D&D 3.5 Q&A thread, the knight's Daunting Challenge is a non-mind-affecting fear effect, meaning it bypasses Mind Blank. Mind Blank doesn't make one immune to fear except for those fears that are specifically mind affecting.

[Zale]

Correct.

Does that shock you? We're talking about a level of spells that can turn people into rocks and trap their souls in gems.

I don't have the Rules Compendium on me, but Undead and other entries in the SRD indicates you're immune to hope, bravery, and the like as well (moral bonuses do not affect you).

Oh not really.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to stock up on scrolls and visit the nearest village. :smallsmile:

Here commoner, commoner, commoner. Wheeeeree are you?

[Aharon]

@Vandicus
Actually, no. It's similar to the Dread Witch example above. If not explicitly mentioned, fear effects are automatically mind-affecting. This is also true for the Knight's Daunting challenge.

[Drachasor]

According to what I can find in PHBII, and a person kind enough to point it out to me on the D&D 3.5 Q&A thread, the knight's Daunting Challenge is a non-mind-affecting fear effect, meaning it bypasses Mind Blank. Mind Blank doesn't make one immune to fear except for those fears that are specifically mind affecting.

Unless I missed something, the ability does not specifically say it is non-mind-affecting. Without that, ANY fear effect is:


Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

Further, Shaken, Frightened, and Panicked under their entries are specifically said to by types of Fear (referencing the above). An ability would have to have a special clause stating it doesn't follow the standard rules.


Oh not really.

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm going to stock up on scrolls and visit the nearest village. :smallsmile:

Here commoner, commoner, commoner. Wheeeeree are you?

Don't get me wrong..it's quite an odd effect for a spell. It seems to make someone rather emotionless going by its effects. Yet it doesn't seem to indicate that it changes how people behave. Very strange.

[Douglas]

So If I take random commoner #624, slap a Mind Blank ring on him and dangle him off a cliff, he won't be scared? :smallconfused:
I'd say he'll still be scared, just not so scared he can't think. Immunity to fear effects means fear can't overcome your rational thought processes or get in the way of your muscle control, but it doesn't mean you can't be afraid.

[Vandicus]

@Vandicus
Actually, no. It's similar to the Dread Witch example above. If not explicitly mentioned, fear effects are automatically mind-affecting. This is also true for the Knight's Daunting challenge.

On the contrary, they are not automatically mind affecting. Fear attacks are, fear effects are not. This distinction is made repeatedly across the books, including in the Rules Compendium.

[Drachasor]

On the contrary, they are not automatically mind affecting. Fear attacks are, fear effects are not. This distinction is made repeatedly across the books, including in the Rules Compendium.

Ok, if a distinction is made, then what is the difference between a Fear Effect and a Fear Attack? The SRD entry doesn't seem to make any distinction, interchangeably using the two terms.

[Vandicus]

Ok, if a distinction is made, then what is the difference between a Fear Effect and a Fear Attack? The SRD entry doesn't seem to make any distinction, interchangeably using the two terms.

Actually, a fear attack is a subgroup of fear effect. The rules compendium makes the distinction and lists the types of fear attacks that exist.

The fear spell is a fear effect(but not a fear attack)
The frightning presence is a fear attack(and a fear effect) as listed in the rules compendium.

*EDIT

Also in RAW terms, as always, if a thing is not specifically listed as being X, its not X. Therefore Daunting Challenge is a fear affect, which is not mind-affecting because it is not listed as such anywhere, and not a fear attack because its not listed as such anywhere.

[Keld Denar]

Fear attack = Fear effect.

Anything you do that directly, negatively affects a foe is an attack. If it can break Invisibility, its probably some form of attack. This holds true regardless of what action you spend on it. All Fear "attacks" are Fear effects. Fear is Fear, and all Fear is Mind Affecting. Even a Dread Witch's Fear is Mind Affecting, it just has a special stipulation that states that it penetrates effects and traits that give immunity to Fear. If there was a subcatagory of "Fear Attacks", it would be in the Special Abilities section of the MM (or SRD), right alongside Fear Aura and Frightful Presence. Its not. They use the terms interchangably because there is no difference.

If you fill a foe with fear, you are attacking them just the same as if you used a special ability that fatigued them, or did HP damage, or gave negative levels. All Fear effects are attacks.

EDIT:

FEAR ATTACKS
When they’re not spells, fear attacks can be extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like, with specifics explained in the ability’s description.

This statement is incredibly redundant. Of course. EVERYTHING that isn't a spell is either SU, SP, or EX (except natural abilties, but I don't think there are any natural fear effects). All this does is break down Fear into 4 catagories. Spells, Spell Likes, Supernaturals, and Extraordinaries. All of which fall under the general catagory of "Fear effects", and all of which are Mind Affecting.

[JaronK]

This statement is incredibly redundant. Of course. EVERYTHING that isn't a spell is either SU, SP, or EX (except natural abilties, but I don't think there are any natural fear effects). All this does is break down Fear into 4 catagories. Spells, Spell Likes, Supernaturals, and Extraordinaries. All of which fall under the general catagory of "Fear effects", and all of which are Mind Affecting.

Nitpick: All Abilities are in the four categories. Some things aren't abilities (for example, the ability to cast spells is an ability, but the spells themselves aren't. The ability to make traps is an ability, but the trap itself is not an ability.).

But that statement isn't redundant... it's simply saying the fear effects can't be Natural Abilities (so even if the fear is just caused by the creature looking REALLY ugly, it still can't be a Natural Ability). It also means Fear Attacks are always considered Special Attacks (as opposed to Natural Attacks, such as Claw Attacks).

JaronK

[Silva Stormrage]

Wait what?

No. NOTHING is immune to Daze. Well, almost nothing. There are only like, 3 ways to get immunity to Daze. You can Daze Elementals, Constructs, Undead, etc. Constructs are immune to Stun, but they can be Dazed, for sure.

Now, MANY Daze effects are explicitly Mind Affecting, which immunity to Mind Affecting would protect you from, but some Daze effects, like Blasphemy, are not.

Back on topic of the OP...instead of trying to get A or B, consider C: Immunity to [Death] and other negative effects. Soulfire Armor is a MUST at level 20 (and often much much much earlier).

Another way to prevent daze is fire souled and the 4th level paladin spell favor of the martyr.

Contributing: I would also suggest taking the mindblank item. You should still be able to take craven anyway and immunity to mind affecting makes you immune to enchantment and most of illusion. Another bonus for rogues is immunity to scrying magic. No longer can people who see you scry on you to find you after you have robbed a place blind.

[Vandicus]

Anything you do that directly, negatively affects a foe is an attack. If it can break Invisibility, its probably some form of attack.


Earlier I believe you stated that you believed a dragon automatically breaks sanctuary whenever it activates its frightful presence within range of an opponent, say by flying overhead(pg 22 of the Draconomicon) because this constitutes a form of attack.

What about a cleric in the Underdark wearing sanctuary and a light spell, who unknowingly moves within range of an enemy Drow. Negatively effects, happens without choice, much like Frightful Presence. Would you also argue that this is then an attack?


Also "Spells, magic items, and monsters can cause fear."

"When they’re not spells, fear attacks can be extraordinary,
supernatural, or spell-like, with specifi cs explained in the
ability’s description."

Magic items can have effects upon enemies that are neither spells, extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. The Fearsome armor propery, for example. Fear attacks can be any of those four types, but here is a fear causing item that does not fall under them, therefore it is not a fear attack.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm having a conundrum in itemization for a 20th level character. Do I go for a ring of universal energy immunity resistance from the MIC or do I get the Third Eye Conceal for a constant Mind Blank? What is more important for a 20th level character to have?
Neither. Throw people for a loop, pick up a Darkskull (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#darkskull), and point out the clause in Unhallow that there's a constant Magic Circle Against Good, which applies a Protection From Good effect to those in the area, which inherits from Protection from Evil the little ability about suppressing mind control and possession.

a spellcaster can get continual immunity to all five energy types and +6 to his saves for only 47k and two 6th level spell slots/day.
6th level Pearl of Power + normal Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell + Energy Immunity + Superior Resistance?

11k for the Rod
36k for the Pearl - check.
Method:
Day A: prepare one copy of Energy Immunity, one copy of Superior Resistance. Cast: Energy Immunity(Acid), extended via rod. Recover spell. Energy Immunity(Sonic), extended via rod. Superior Resistance, extended via rod.
Day B: Prepare two copies of Energy Immunity. Cast: Energy Immunity(Fire), extended via rod. Recover spell. Energy Immunity(Cold), extended via rod. Energy Immunity(Electricity), extended via rod.

Alternate between A and B. All spells have an effective 48-hour duration, so casting every other day works.

Hmm. Fun trick. Touch spells, too. Once you're doing it anyway. Every additional party member who wants to buy into this needs... 3 6th level Pearls of Power and a Rod of Extend: 119,000 gp. Hmm. Of course, if you get Dispelled, you've got a problem....

Edit: Oh, potential problem: Some people take the Combining Magical Effects section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects), specifically the "Same Effect with Differing Results" clause, to mean that with such things as the Energy Immunity spell, you only get the effects of the last one in line.