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137beth
2011-08-15, 11:28 AM
It's well known that (especially at higher levels) NPCs are weaker than monsters of the same challenge rating, due to having much less gear than PCs of the same level. The reason enemy NPCs have lower WBLs than PCs of the same level is because otherwise, the players would loot all their gear, which would be far more treasure than a normal monster would give. As a compromise, the DMG suggests giving NPCs more treasure than a normal monster, but much less than a player. Unfortunately, this makes NPCs easier to defeat that normal monsters, AND they give more treasure.
To fix this, I propose the following: give NPCs un-loot-able gear. The following enhancement can be applied to any magic item that is NOT intelligent. The enchanted item must be of the following types: armor, weapon, potion, oil, ring, rod, staff, wand, or wondrous item. (bolded since people keep missing it).

Vanishing
This effect mimics a remote form of intelligence (it does not actually grant the item true intelligence). The item has a sense of loyalty towards its owner. When sold, the item recognizes its new master. If a pre-existing item is enchanted into a vanishing item, the owner of the original item is still the owner of the enchanted item, regardless of who enchants it. This "loyalty" does not grant the item any bonus to attacks, or any other powers it may possess. However, the item's master may, as a free action, instantly destroy the item. He does not need to be holding the item, nor be close to it, so long as he is on the same plane. The item is not simply damage or dispelled--it is completely erased from existence and cannot be recovered in any way short of divine intervention. Additionally, when killed or knocked unconscious, the owner may erase the item as an immediate reaction. A vanishing item must be able to fit in a sphere with volume at most 1 cubic foot/caster level of the enchanter.
If a vanishing item contains extradimensional storage space, its contents are not erased, but rather released in the spot where the item was.
An anti-magic field does not prevent the item from vanishing, though it suppresses the items other magical properties. This is to prevent the PCs from "anchoring" the item when they kill its NPC owner, then taking the item out of the AMF and effectively getting too much gear.
Faint Transmutation, CL 5th, Erase;
Price: Increase total market price by 1%


When you use NPCs as monsters in an encounter, give the NPC gear totaling the value as the WBL for a player of the same level. However, most of it is contained in Vanishing items. The non-vanishing part of the treasure should be worth the normal treasure amount for an encounter of the NPC's challenge rating (or double standard, if you find it appropriate).


Now, for NPCs, this works fine. But there might be a potential for PC wizard cheese. Under normal use, a player would almost never want to have this on their items (why would you want to destroy your own magic items?) But since this forum is better at finding cheese than I am, I thought I'd submit this to see what y'all came up with. The purpose of this adjustment is to allow NPCs to be legitimate opponents for the players. This was NOT intended to be used on items which the players possess. The minimal cost increase is due to the fact that I didn't see why any players would ever want to use it. So if you can find a reason for players to use vanishing items, let me know.

Vladislav
2011-08-15, 11:35 AM
It's a very awkward solution. Being able to destroy the item even on another plane of existence, no save, is probably the equivalent of Wish ...for a 1% price increase? Yeah, seems very forced.

Just give your NPCs more Oils of Magic Weapon and less actual magic weapons, and you'll be ok.

Welknair
2011-08-15, 11:56 AM
What possible reason would a run-of-the-mill NPC have for having these items? Once they're dead, what do they care if their body is looted? The only situation I could see this actually being used in is if an army was well-supplied enough for foot soldiers to have magic gear that they didn't want to fall into enemy hands. But what kind of army is that rich?

Not to mention I could see Wizards enchanting sections of wall with this and then causing the wall to vanish. Or trying something similar.

Cheesy74
2011-08-15, 12:25 PM
I tend to just give them level-appropriate gear bonuses as an innate bonus rather than equip them so heavily. Tossing on Vow of Poverty bonuses for their level works pretty well.

137beth
2011-08-15, 12:26 PM
What possible reason would a run-of-the-mill NPC have for having these items? Once they're dead, what do they care if their body is looted? The only situation I could see this actually being used in is if an army was well-supplied enough for foot soldiers to have magic gear that they didn't want to fall into enemy hands. But what kind of army is that rich?


It's not intended for random commoners to have (heck, run-of-the-mill NPCs don't have ANY magic items). It's intended for a high level NPC who was sent to fight the PCs. They don't want their enemies to get substantially stronger from looting them, do they? I pretty clearly explained the meta-game reason for giving it to NPCs...
I suppose it is for the same reason that level 19 NPCs all have the same amount of treasure:smallwink:



Not to mention I could see Wizards enchanting sections of wall with this and then causing the wall to vanish. Or trying something similar.

Ah, this could be an issue (that's why I put this on the forums, so that y'all could detect abuseable cheese). Of course, unless the PCs own the wall, the wall would not be loyal to the player, and would only disappear if the building owner wanted it to (I'll edit the text to make this clear). However, this raises the question of why an intelligent opponent doesn't enchant the floors of their dungeon/castle, and erase the floors, causing the PCs to fall. As a solution, the item being enchanted must fit in a sphere with a volume no more than 1 cubic ft./caster level of the creator.


Being able to destroy the item even on another plane of existence, no save, is probably the equivalent of Wish ...for a 1% price increase? Yeah, seems very forced.
Huh? For one thing, I SPECIFICALLY SAID you have to be on the same plane. Secondly, you are destroying YOUR OWN ITEM. The item is loyal to you, so it intentionally fails its saving throw.

Welknair
2011-08-15, 12:33 PM
It's not intended for random commoners to have (heck, run-of-the-mill NPCs don't have ANY magic items). It's intended for a high level NPC who was sent to fight the PCs. They don't want their enemies to get substantially stronger from looting them, do they? I pretty clearly explained the meta-game reason for giving it to NPCs...
I suppose it is for the same reason that level 19 NPCs all have the same amount of treasure:smallwink:


If I were the mercenaries, I would feel very concerned if my employer thought that my chances of success were so low as to make contingencies for when I'm killed. I may rethink my previous life choices...



Ah, this could be an issue (that's why I put this on the forums, so that y'all could detect abuseable cheese). Of course, unless the PCs own the wall, the wall would not be loyal to the player, and would only disappear if the building owner wanted it to (I'll edit the text to make this clear). However, this raises the question of why an intelligent opponent doesn't enchant the floors of their dungeon/castle, and erase the floors, causing the PCs to fall. As a solution, the item being enchanted must fit in a sphere with a volume no more than 1 cubic ft./caster level of the creator.


Well what determines who the owner is? If you pick up a random rock, is it yours? What if the rock was in the land of a noble? Is it the noble's rock? Would the noble get a mental message when the enchantment is completed, notifying him of the fact that he can destroy a rock? What if you claim the rock for yourself? Have you "Conquered" the rock? Or does it remain loyal to the noble until he gives it to you? What if you kill him? What if ownership changes after the enchantment has been completed? What if an item is mutually shared?

Greenish
2011-08-15, 12:43 PM
Didn't the drow of earlier editions have items and special materials that lost all their magic/melted/vanished in sunlight, for the very same reason?

Yitzi
2011-08-15, 12:56 PM
It's not intended for random commoners to have (heck, run-of-the-mill NPCs don't have ANY magic items). It's intended for a high level NPC who was sent to fight the PCs. They don't want their enemies to get substantially stronger from looting them, do they?

That's why they're not going to be fighting the PCs straight on, but rather stealing their equipment...:smallamused:

137beth
2011-08-15, 01:00 PM
If I were the mercenaries, I would feel very concerned if my employer thought that my chances of success were so low as to make contingencies for when I'm killed. I may rethink my previous life choices...

Point taken. Of course, all assassins recognize that there is some chance of failure...


Well what determines who the owner is? If you pick up a random rock, is it yours? What if the rock was in the land of a noble? Is it the noble's rock? Would the noble get a mental message when the enchantment is completed, notifying him of the fact that he can destroy a rock? What if you claim the rock for yourself? Have you "Conquered" the rock? Or does it remain loyal to the noble until he gives it to you? What if you kill him? What if ownership changes after the enchantment has been completed? What if an item is mutually shared?
DM discretion determines who the owner of an item is. As stated several times, this is not intended for use by PCs. The owner of an enemies magic armor can be assumed to be that enemy. If there is a reason you can think of as to why a player would enchant a random rock so that they could destroy it whenever they want, thrill me.

Welknair
2011-08-15, 01:06 PM
If there is a reason you can think of as to why a player would enchant a random rock so that they could destroy it whenever they want, thrill me.

What if they use the rock to kill someone by throwing it at them? When the clerics and diviners come trying to determine who the murderer is using the weapon as a starting point, you could just cause it to disappear. (Hey, disappearing bullet!)


Really it was just a random example.


Or there's a large rock lodged in the road. You enchant it with this. When a wagon is passing over it, you cause the rock to disappear. The wagon is stuck. Plunder as you see fit.


The ability to make items disappear on command is very powerful. If I were a PC I'd certainly try to exploit it.

Lord Vukodlak
2011-08-15, 02:39 PM
I believe it was Rokugan Campain setting boko that had the idea of some magic items being spiritual. Its the persons belief in the spirits and their ancestors that make the item magic not the item's own qualities.

So a farmer might possess a luckstone but its only luckstone in his hands. The spirits won't work the magic for anyone but that farmer. Many people may possess some magic item.

This doesn't work for fully armed mercs though. Really your goal is to be able to fully arm enemy NPC's to attack the PC's without giving them any treasure. There are better ways to do this, such as having the enemy group buff up before attacking the PC's outnumbering the PC's with lower level NPC's. Vexing Flanker and a bard can do wonders for mooks hiting PC's well above their level. I've had PC"s walk into a room fully buffed and right into a wall of dispel magic which strips half or more of their defenses. The buffed NPC's of a lower level and greater numbers then start causing some major pain.
The other answer is of course, just lower the CR of the NPCs as appropriate.

But if your looking to booby trap magic items curses work well. Lets say your fighting the Red Wizards. I can see them equiping there minions with magic items that lower their resistances to enchantment spells cast by red wizards.

Lord Vukodlak
2011-08-15, 02:44 PM
Didn't the drow of earlier editions have items and special materials that lost all their magic/melted/vanished in sunlight, for the very same reason?

Essentially drow magic items were maded by weaving in a magical energy that permeated the underdark. It was called the faerzress. It was essentially a game mechanic for the drow to have awesome magic items while in the underdark or during a nighttime raid but deny PC's any loot from it.

Yitzi
2011-08-15, 04:43 PM
I'd say the answer isn't to make NPCs not have as much loot, but to make them be substantially more difficult than monsters of the same level, so that the players have to earn said loot.

I mean, if it can be done with kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) at 6th-12th level, surely it's possible even at high levels with higher-level NPCs.

Silva Stormrage
2011-08-15, 05:30 PM
Wait why not just do what neverwinter does? (Or I assume it does, I haven't played online or made my own content). They give the creatures magic items but only some of them drop and are available to players.

If thats too "Video gamey" for you. Just re fluff the items they normally would have with a magic buff, template, etc.

137beth
2011-08-15, 07:20 PM
What if they use the rock to kill someone by throwing it at them? When the clerics and diviners come trying to determine who the murderer is using the weapon as a starting point, you could just cause it to disappear. (Hey, disappearing bullet!)


Really it was just a random example.


Or there's a large rock lodged in the road. You enchant it with this. When a wagon is passing over it, you cause the rock to disappear. The wagon is stuck. Plunder as you see fit.


The ability to make items disappear on command is very powerful. If I were a PC I'd certainly try to exploit it.
The rock is to big to enchant:smallwink:
Do you have any ideas to discourage PCs from using this (or to make it impossible for them to do so?)
Another advantage to using this system is that sundering looks like a more attractive option (though its still not great)...we just have to prevent the PCs from using it.




Wait why not just do what neverwinter does? (Or I assume it does, I haven't played online or made my own content). They give the creatures magic items but only some of them drop and are available to players.



That's basically what this is--a slightly less video-gamey way of preventing all of their items from dropping.

Welknair
2011-08-15, 07:28 PM
The rock is to big to enchant:smallwink:
Do you have any ideas to discourage PCs from using this (or to make it impossible for them to do so?)
Another advantage to using this system is that sundering looks like a more attractive option (though its still not great)...we just have to prevent the PCs from using it.

Cu ft/CL. All you need is one wheel down. Totally do-able.


Fixing it is quite the problem. A good starting point would be specifying that it could only be applied to weapons, armor, and other magic items. Not random objects.

137beth
2011-08-15, 08:17 PM
I DID start by saying it could be applied to any MAGIC item. Edited to make that clearer.

Welknair
2011-08-15, 08:43 PM
I DID start by saying it could be applied to any MAGIC item. Edited to make that clearer.

Well that would certainly stop me and my rock hijinks.

137beth
2011-08-16, 05:44 PM
Yea, I shoulda mentioned it earlier:smallsmile:
So, any more loopholes people have found?

Mangles
2011-08-25, 07:44 AM
Depends how late in the campaign. But sovereign glue with this enchantment could be all sorts of trouble. Need some rocks to fall and everyone to die. Just glue a second ceiling to the roof in your hallway and bait the trap. Walls that fall apart because the glue holding them together is suddenly gone. The wagon hole is even easy with this. Just glue a lid on your hole and take away the glue when the wheels are there. At will disappearing sovereign glue would make this already pretty utilizable item smell like swiss.

But for even cheaper fun, A Quall’s Tree Feather Token. Instant tree than instantly not. For only 4 extra gp it adds a whole lot for it. Save a dryad by planting it in her now burnt down grove then threaten to remove it again. Cause the tree to grow under something than make it disappear as the object now falls 60 feet.

EDITS as i come up with them: if you can convince someone to steal your folding boat you now have the perfect trap to dump them and their armor into the water.
Or how about putting your head through this ring gate. What happens when those disappear and your head is now 99.9 miles from your body.
Any item that gives you flight left as a trap for the BBEG. He flys he falls.
Bull rush someone into a Portable Hole. Now they are gone from existence.

I would add this to every magical item I own. There is no end of uses, and if it comes down to it, who cares if i own items after I die. Also the tree is my favorite.

137beth
2011-08-25, 09:00 AM
Depends how late in the campaign. But sovereign glue with this enchantment could be all sorts of trouble. Need some rocks to fall and everyone to die. Just glue a second ceiling to the roof in your hallway and bait the trap. Walls that fall apart because the glue holding them together is suddenly gone. The wagon hole is even easy with this. Just glue a lid on your hole and take away the glue when the wheels are there. At will disappearing sovereign glue would make this already pretty utilizable item smell like swiss.

But for even cheaper fun, A Quall’s Tree Feather Token. Instant tree than instantly not. For only 4 extra gp it adds a whole lot for it. Save a dryad by planting it in her now burnt down grove then threaten to remove it again. Cause the tree to grow under something than make it disappear as the object now falls 60 feet.

EDITS as i come up with them: if you can convince someone to steal your folding boat you now have the perfect trap to dump them and their armor into the water.
Or how about putting your head through this ring gate. What happens when those disappear and your head is now 99.9 miles from your body.
Any item that gives you flight left as a trap for the BBEG. He flys he falls.
Bull rush someone into a Portable Hole. Now they are gone from existence.

I would add this to every magical item I own. There is no end of uses, and if it comes down to it, who cares if i own items after I die. Also the tree is my favorite.
The rocks, ceiling, tree, and boat are all ineligible for this enchantment, sorry. (this was brought up earlier in the thread).
As for the flight item, I might rule that the BBEG now owns the item, since you gave it to him. Or he just wouldn't pick it up. But even if neither of those choices appeal to you, a BBEG who can't fly or teleport is kinda pathetic anyways, since the PCs can fly.
As for the portable hole/bag of holding, you can delete the portable hole, but you can't delete its contents.
EDIT: the glue is also too spread out to enchant, since it must be contained in a sphere with a volume of 1 cu ft/CL, and it is spread out along the entire ceiling.

So sorry, none of your cheese attempts work:smallsmile:

jiriku
2011-08-25, 09:44 AM
Possible simpler approach:

Monsters who derive their effectiveness principally from PC class levels take a -1 penalty to CR. Thus, a hobgoblin wizard 10 is a CR 9 opponent, for example. Monster who derive their effectiveness principally from NPC class levels treat all such levels as non-associated, meaning that CR increases by 1 per 2 NPC class levels. Thus, a hobgoblin adept 10 is a CR 5 opponent.

Let's just recognize that good gear increases CR, and that its absence likewise reduces it.

Roderick_BR
2011-08-25, 12:13 PM
My suggestion would simply not use NPCs against high level PCs. PC classes are suposed to be stronger than "normal humans". While you do have tables for 20th level commoners, I don't think you should have them running around or in armies. They should be the common folk, and the PCs should be fighting monsters or other equalliy powerful characters (with PC class levels).
It avoids problems like finding a 18th level peasant. How did he earn so many levels? Why didn't he just took levels in a common PC class? As a rule of thumb, "powerful" npcs are limited to the E6 rules, and even then, most of them rarely goes past 3rd or 4th level, upon reaching adulthood (young adults would range from 1 to 2 levels, tops).

Maraxus1
2011-08-25, 01:33 PM
I calculate my NPCs by the following formular:

CR = Commoner / 6
+ (Arist./Expert) / 5
+ (Adept/Warrior) / 4
+ PC-Classes / 2
+ Player Character Level appropriate wealth / 2

Thus there can be poor but skillful NPCs and I know their CR.
The formular is easily to adjust for monstrous NPCs and the idea of "associated and nonassociated class levels" (The later get reduced to Level/4 until Level = CR)

Examples:

A Human Warrior 6 / Fighter 4 with equipment worth about 20,000 gp.
6/4 + 4/2 + 7/2 (the appropriate wealth for a level 7 character is 19,000 - close enough).
= CR 7

Elf Fighter 1 / Wizard 8 with 5400 gp worth of equipment:
1/2 + 8/2 + 4/2 = CR 6.5

Ogre Mage Warrior 2 / Cleric 3 (nonasso.) / Battle Sorcerer 5 (asso.) with 66000 worth of stuff:
8 (Monster CR) + 2/4 + 3/4 + 5/2 + 11/2 = CR 17.25
(Or, probably a bit less to account for the sub-optimal multi-classing).

137beth
2011-08-25, 04:25 PM
My suggestion would simply not use NPCs against high level PCs. PC classes are suposed to be stronger than "normal humans". While you do have tables for 20th level commoners, I don't think you should have them running around or in armies. They should be the common folk, and the PCs should be fighting monsters or other equalliy powerful characters (with PC class levels).
It avoids problems like finding a 18th level peasant. How did he earn so many levels? Why didn't he just took levels in a common PC class? As a rule of thumb, "powerful" npcs are limited to the E6 rules, and even then, most of them rarely goes past 3rd or 4th level, upon reaching adulthood (young adults would range from 1 to 2 levels, tops).

Yea, this is meant for NPCs with PC class levels. Using the core rules, even NPCs with class levels have much less treasure. I don't know why anyone would use a 20th level commoner, as it would not make for an interesting encounter.

@Maraxus: Nice system. I'm gonna try testing its accuracy:smallsmile:

Mangles
2011-08-26, 08:03 AM
I can't see how any of these wouldn't work under your constraints. 1) They must be a magical item. Check on all of these except perhaps the tree that Quall's Tree Feather Token summons. Check two they must fit into the 1 cu/cl

The glue would easily be contained within the sphere when enchanted. Then spread out along whatever surface it is used on. And i never said to enchant the rocks or trees just the glue. Quall’s Tree Feather Token is a wondrous item not a tree itself. It turns into your 60 foot dismissible tree which is a valid argument depending if you consider the tree part of the token or just a summoned effect.

Dismissing a ring gate half way through would definitely kill someone depending on how it was done. Where would the portable holes contents end up when u dismiss the hole? In no dimension land with no anything probably.

The whole point is to reduce the wealth that can be taken from NPC's so if the BBEG can steal your flying carpet without you being able to dismiss it than how come the PC's can't steal any items.

137beth
2011-08-26, 08:34 AM
I can't see how any of these wouldn't work under your constraints. 1) They must be a magical item. Check on all of these except perhaps the tree that Quall's Tree Feather Token summons. Check two they must fit into the 1 cu/cl

The glue would easily be contained within the sphere when enchanted. Then spread out along whatever surface it is used on. And i never said to enchant the rocks or trees just the glue. Quall’s Tree Feather Token is a wondrous item not a tree itself. It turns into your 60 foot dismissible tree which is a valid argument depending if you consider the tree part of the token or just a summoned effect.


It isn't a magic weapon/armor/potion/ect, though, and

Dismissing a ring gate half way through would definitely kill someone depending on how it was done. Where would the portable holes contents end up when u dismiss the hole? In no dimension land with no anything probably.
Wherever the outside of the portable hole was. E.g., If you are carrying a bag of holding, and dismiss it, then the contents will be expelled right next to you.


The whole point is to reduce the wealth that can be taken from NPC's so if the BBEG can steal your flying carpet without you being able to dismiss it than how come the PC's can't steal any items.
Because when they defeat the NPC who has it, that NPC destroys it immediately (that's why they get to do so as an immediate action), before the PCs can take it.

Mangles
2011-08-26, 09:13 AM
It isn't a magic weapon/armor/potion/ect, though, and

They are wondrous items though, and as such allowable by your rules.


Wherever the outside of the portable hole was. E.g., If you are carrying a bag of holding, and dismiss it, then the contents will be expelled right next to you.

This is never stated anywhere. The ambiguity leaves it open for abuse.


Because when they defeat the NPC who has it, that NPC destroys it immediately (that's why they get to do so as an immediate action), before the PCs can take it.


So does this mean as soon as the PC's touch the item it becomes theirs as ownership? What if it is stolen but the thief is seen. What if someone draws the NPC's sword out of his scarab. Where do you draw the line? once again leaving this not fully explained is what allows people to abuse it.

DiBastet
2011-08-26, 10:43 AM
Tossing on Vow of Poverty bonuses for their level works pretty well.

I banned +x items (enhancement to attack, deflection, natural armor, enhancement to armor and shield, resistance and attributes) from the game, but characters gain that flat bonus as innate abilities, based on level. In other words, it becomes a level dependent bonus based on HD (like feats and that increase in attributes).

The game supposes that characters are going to have these bonuses anyway, and this helps significantly npcs (and monsters btw).


However, for less worries about it, giving npcs the numerical bonuses of VoP works pretty well AND enables the npcs to have "nice" magical items (say, amulet ot tears?) instead of cloak of resistance AGAIN.

137beth
2011-08-26, 05:00 PM
They are wondrous items though, and as such allowable by your rules.


Hmm, I guess if they applied a cheap enchantment first...
better fix that. No more wondrous items.


This is never stated anywhere. The ambiguity leaves it open for abuse.

Um, yes it is?

Vanishing
This effect mimics a remote form of intelligence (it does not actually grant the item true intelligence). The item has a sense of loyalty towards its owner. When sold, the item recognizes its new master. If a pre-existing item is enchanted into a vanishing item, the owner of the original item is still the owner of the enchanted item, regardless of who enchants it. This "loyalty" does not grant the item any bonus to attacks, or any other powers it may possess. However, the item's master may, as a free action, instantly destroy the item. He does not need to be holding the item, nor be close to it, so long as he is on the same plane. The item is not simply damage or dispelled--it is completely erased from existence and cannot be recovered in any way short of divine intervention. Additionally, when killed or knocked unconscious, the owner may erase the item as an immediate reaction. A vanishing item must be able to fit in a sphere with volume at most 1 cubic foot/caster level of the enchanter.
If a vanishing item contains extradimensional storage space, its contents are not erased, but rather released in the spot where the item was.
Faint Transmutation, CL 5th, Erase;
Price: Increase total market price by 1%
Made it bigger for you.

So does this mean as soon as the PC's touch the item it becomes theirs as ownership?
Depends. If it was lying in a dungeon for 1000 years and is abandoned, then yea, sure. If they grab it from an opponent with improved disarm, then no.


Where do you draw the line? once again leaving this not fully explained is what allows people to abuse it.
Have you honestly never seen a DM make a judgement call?
I can't possibly describe every situation in your campaign. the fact that it is vague is what makes it NOT abusable. It's the DM's call, not the PCs.

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-26, 08:24 PM
So, three major problems:

The magic bullet theory: Or more accurately magic arrows. Simply get some arrows enchanted with a +1 conspiracy enchantment and vanishing, then unload on some poor sap without being seen. After your target dies you can simply vanish the arrows and suddenly there's no evidence he died of anything other than spontaneous puncture-wounds (I'm told there's a rather nasty pandemic of that going through the nobility). And that does fit all of your criteria- they're enchanted weapons and under 1'^3 (they'd be under that if you combined all of them, let alone on their own).

It doesn't actually work: The other problem with an enchantment like this is that it forces/strongly suggests that your players should use anti-magic and dispelling tactics. After all, commanding a mundane lump of metal to vanish itself isn't going to get you very far. The really bad part is that not only does this sort of tactic render your new enchantment useless it nullifies all of the npc's other equipment as well, resulting in an easier fight and more loot.

It's just pore GMing: Regardless of whether or not you can make this balance it's a rather significant breach of the social contract between DM and gamers. I know that if any one of my dms where to try to pull this and it wasn't a significant plot element I'd either make him undo it or I'd quite. I barely have tolerance for this sort-of stuff in video games so I wouldn't have any in an rp game that can actually adapt to things.
---------------------------------------------------------------

A suggestion: Rather than try to cheat players out of loot, why not devalue it? Simply decouple the mundane (+ consumables) market from the magic gear market. Then create some generic currency for magic stuff and make gear exponentially more expensive as it increases in rank. After that it doesn't matter if they loot an entire duplicate set of gear off their opponents, they can only use so much of it and it's not like they can sell their spares for more power (the point of the currency is to allow for easier loot customization [though bartering loot for loot should be encouraged via better rates] and to discourage them keeping a set of gear for every conceivable situation [the gear takes up weight and the currency, which can be redeemed for an equivalent grade of gear, doesn't]). This has two added benefits: first, they don't get more powerful gear sooner than you want them to (if they have enough gear to sell that they can purchase the next level you're being stingy or your rates aren't right) and they can reasonably purchase things like castles and clothes without worrying about decreasing their power.

137beth
2011-08-27, 08:37 AM
The magic bullet theory: Or more accurately magic arrows. Simply get some arrows enchanted with a +1 conspiracy enchantment and vanishing, then unload on some poor sap without being seen. After your target dies you can simply vanish the arrows and suddenly there's no evidence he died of anything other than spontaneous puncture-wounds (I'm told there's a rather nasty pandemic of that going through the nobility). And that does fit all of your criteria- they're enchanted weapons and under 1'^3 (they'd be under that if you combined all of them, let alone on their own).
Ok, this would probably more of a problem in an evil campaign (or one where the government is evil).


The other problem with an enchantment like this is that it forces/strongly suggests that your players should use anti-magic and dispelling tactics. After all, commanding a mundane lump of metal to vanish itself isn't going to get you very far. The really bad part is that not only does this sort of tactic render your new enchantment useless it nullifies all of the npc's other equipment as well, resulting in an easier fight and more loot.If the players dispel/Mordakain's disjunction the item, it loses its other useful properties as well. However, if they cast AMF, then we do, in fact, have a serious problem. Perhaps AMF does not prevent it from vanishing...

It's just pore GMing: Regardless of whether or not you can make this balance it's a rather significant breach of the social contract between DM and gamers. I know that if any one of my dms where to try to pull this and it wasn't a significant plot element I'd either make him undo it or I'd quite. I barely have tolerance for this sort-of stuff in video games so I wouldn't have any in an rp game that can actually adapt to things.
I'm going to disagree with you there. Some people don't mind it getting a bit more videogamey. Honestly, while I prefer to avoid this, I still consider game balance to be very important.
In fact, my intent with this was to allow NPCs to have more gear WITHOUT using videogame logic of "you just arbitrarily don't get their items, sorry". If a DM were to say that, I would get really annoyed. But if they actually came up with an rp reason for it to not drop, then I'd be fine.


A suggestion: Rather than try to cheat players out of loot
The loot which under RAW they wouldn't get anyways? That's not "cheating" them out of loot.


Simply decouple the mundane (+ consumables) market from the magic gear market. Then create some generic currency for magic stuff and make gear exponentially more expensive as it increases in rank. After that it doesn't matter if they loot an entire duplicate set of gear off their opponents, they can only use so much of it and it's not like they can sell their spares for more power (the point of the currency is to allow for easier loot customization [though bartering loot for loot should be encouraged via better rates] and to discourage them keeping a set of gear for every conceivable situation [the gear takes up weight and the currency, which can be redeemed for an equivalent grade of gear, doesn't]). This has two added benefits: first, they don't get more powerful gear sooner than you want them to (if they have enough gear to sell that they can purchase the next level you're being stingy or your rates aren't right) and they can reasonably purchase things like castles and clothes without worrying about decreasing their power.
Okay, in case you hadn't taken the hint by now, this is suppose to be a quick fix. My system can be learned in a minute. Your idea requires redesigning WBL, repricing every single item in the game, and then reworking the power of every monster in the game to account for the change in player gear. It might work, but it is definitely not a quick fix. In short, if someone comes up with a simple fix to something, they aren't looking for you to say "oh, but that doesn't work nearly as well as re-statting everything in the entire game".

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-27, 09:28 AM
Ok, this would probably more of a problem in an evil campaign (or one where the government is evil).
Or whenever the PCs want to kill something without getting caught.


If the players dispel/Mordakain's disjunction the item, it loses its other useful properties as well. However, if they cast AMF, then we do, in fact, have a serious problem. Perhaps AMF does not prevent it from vanishing...
Dispel (unlike disjunction) only suppresses a magic item and making it immune to dispel and anti-magic would require boosting it's power to artifact/deific levels; which is kinda hard to justify.



The loot which under RAW they wouldn't get anyways? That's not "cheating" them out of loot.
RAWs irrelevant in this case. It's loot that you've dangled in-front of them, made them work for and then snatched away at the moment of victory.



Okay, in case you hadn't taken the hint by now, this is suppose to be a quick fix. My system can be learned in a minute. Your idea requires redesigning WBL, repricing every single item in the game, and then reworking the power of every monster in the game to account for the change in player gear. It might work, but it is definitely not a quick fix. In short, if someone comes up with a simple fix to something, they aren't looking for you to say "oh, but that doesn't work nearly as well as re-statting everything in the entire game".
... You don't actually have to do that much. Just create a multiplier/exponent to apply to the different tiers of magic items (it makes sense that some items within a tier cost more than others)... That and the fact that npcs now have more gear (which they'd also have with your fix) are the only real changes to wlb (which, really should only be used as a guideline anyways). Since the PCs can still only use the same amount of gear at any one time and the game assumes they're fully kited out any ways you don' need to change the power of the monsters.
So... yeah, you're not really restating all that much.

137beth
2011-08-27, 11:12 AM
RAWs irrelevant in this case. It's loot that you've dangled in-front of them, made them work for and then snatched away at the moment of victory.

But they're getting the exact same amount of loot. I'm making them work just as hard as fighting a monster of the same level. They should get the same amount of loot for the same challenge.


... You don't actually have to do that much. Just create a multiplier/exponent to apply to the different tiers of magic items (it makes sense that some items within a tier cost more than others)... That and the fact that npcs now have more gear (which they'd also have with your fix) are the only real changes to wlb (which, really should only be used as a guideline anyways). Since the PCs can still only use the same amount of gear at any one time and the game assumes they're fully kited out any ways you don' need to change the power of the monsters.
So... yeah, you're not really restating all that much.
Wait, what? I'm changing the price of every item, in a way that makes it so that NPCs can afford more gear, and PCs can afford less? Could ya explain how that works?
Oh, and your system would still be changing the price of every item.

Epsilon Rose
2011-08-27, 04:29 PM
Wait, what? I'm changing the price of every item, in a way that makes it so that NPCs can afford more gear, and PCs can afford less? Could ya explain how that works?
Oh, and your system would still be changing the price of every item.

What the NPCs can actually afford is irrelevant since they have what you want them to have. And as for repricing every item... yes that is technically true, however you're not repricing every item individually, you're applying a multiplier or exponent to a tier of items (and there's no reason you need to decide on what tier an item is in advance, you can handle that as the players decide they want it), it's no more work than saying item x has vanishing.

SowZ
2011-08-27, 04:47 PM
Having an extremely paranoid guy do this to his gear and it happens once or twice is one thing. Having it be a normal part of play seems rather silly. The problem isn't game balance it is immersion damage...

Also, why would they enchant only a specific gold value worth of items so that they still have a gold value in magic gear appropriate to their level? If they care enough to do it to a couple items why not all?

I think you have addressed a real problem and brainstorming for solutions is totally cool. I think you just found one that doesn't work.

Runestar
2011-08-28, 08:50 PM
IMO, the best solution is to simply come up with new guidelines to determine their cr. Rather than jump through hoops trying to trick out their gear and all.

For example, instead of cr = class lvs, an npc barbarian or fighter's "true cr" might be closer to 2/3 class lvs, with gear appropriate for his new cr (at least based on observations in my earlier games). So a human fighter18 would be ~cr12, in line with a bearded devil advanced to 18 HD (cr12). :smallsmile:

Cheesy74
2011-08-29, 04:13 PM
Upon further study, it's an interesting enchantment, but not for the purpose you've intended. I like it more from a trap or puzzle standpoint - fill a bag of holding with water and Vanish it when the PCs enter the room for an instant flood. Prop up a roof with a quarterstaff and Vanish it when someone walks under it for a sudden roofing collapse. Say the right listed Vanishing words to make a path across the pits without Vanishing the bridge itself.

The possibilities are endless, just for dungeons instead of equipment.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-16, 11:28 AM
People actually use the NPC classes in games? Every game I've ever played in with a humanoid boss-type (as opposed to just a BFM) just used PC class levels.

Most DMs tended to find it easier to stat out guards and the like from the Fighter table which they had memorized rather than dig out the rule book for NPC classes.

I assumed the NPC classifications where just for non-important background characters and it was some one's pet project; how often do you need to know the combat-prowess of the town drunk or the farmer who you just saved from orcs?

Frankly, I'm not even sure how some one would get 20 levels of commoner; does every carrot you succesfully grow and harvest provide 1 exp or something?

GnomeGninjas
2011-12-16, 09:09 PM
People actually use the NPC classes in games? Every game I've ever played in with a humanoid boss-type (as opposed to just a BFM) just used PC class levels.

Most DMs tended to find it easier to stat out guards and the like from the Fighter table which they had memorized rather than dig out the rule book for NPC classes.

I assumed the NPC classifications where just for non-important background characters and it was some one's pet project; how often do you need to know the combat-prowess of the town drunk or the farmer who you just saved from orcs?

Frankly, I'm not even sure how some one would get 20 levels of commoner; does every carrot you succesfully grow and harvest provide 1 exp or something?

The orcs you just saved the farmer from have the class warrior which is an npc class. My dm uses npc classes, and even if the dm uses pc classes they still get npc wealth by level or else whenever you kill an equal level npc you double your wealth.

boomwolf
2011-12-16, 09:34 PM
Why all this mess? why not equip them as normal but let them use item-destructive methods often...

Its not bad to lose your magic trinket if you are about to get a new one...

GnomeGninjas
2011-12-17, 07:41 AM
Equipping them as normal but using item destructive methods often would probably would make it a lot more balance but some players would object to it being unrealistic and video game like. In a more hack and slash game I would except this without a problem but in a more roleplay heavy game I might question why the bandits would have it, they care about stealing stuff for themselves why would they waste money so people can't take it if they die, if the stole those items them why wouldn't they go away then?

PersonMan
2011-12-17, 09:57 AM
Equipping them as normal but using item destructive methods often would probably would make it a lot more balance but some players would object to it being unrealistic and video game like. In a more hack and slash game I would except this without a problem but in a more roleplay heavy game I might question why the bandits would have it, they care about stealing stuff for themselves why would they waste money so people can't take it if they die, if the stole those items them why wouldn't they go away then?

No, he means stuff like 'Mercenaries 1-3 have lots of cash. But, instead of it being taboo, they do stuff like sunder enemy weapons, since the PCs are getting more wealth than normal.'

It makes in-game sense (who wouldn't want to break the enemy's stuff in a fight for your life?) and balance sense.

GnomeGninjas
2011-12-17, 12:44 PM
No, he means stuff like 'Mercenaries 1-3 have lots of cash. But, instead of it being taboo, they do stuff like sunder enemy weapons, since the PCs are getting more wealth than normal.'

It makes in-game sense (who wouldn't want to break the enemy's stuff in a fight for your life?) and balance sense.

Your right, it does. I thought he meant npcs destroying there own stuff when they die.

Newt
2011-12-18, 10:14 AM
Well that would certainly stop me and my rock hijinks.

You're slacking off here. With feats like "Throw anything" given to giants, rocks become weapons. Put.. Exploding Runes is all I can think of, there's a class where you use runes and chisel them into stone and one of those runes explodes. It should show up under Detect Magic, so now we have ourselves an exploding rock. Which comes up under ammunition and thus weapon, enchanted so magical.

A whole heap of casters enchant said big rock, or you use a Ruth.. People that fight the Red Wizards, communal casting in order to grant yourself more caster levels using lots of low level wizards. Leadership would work fine for that. Why go to all that effort to make one rock disappear you might ask.. What if this rock was holding up the lightning rail? Foundation for a castle? Sappers would find this easier than pick axes. Could just blow it up, but that's.. Not fun. This is fun. Also as long as this wasn't a well known spell then you could safely say that the police forces of any city state won't figure out what happened till you've made off with the train carrying the latest and greatest invention.

Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate. I'd capture one of the henchmen, put a Gease on him to swap out the big bads wand/sword/whatever with a copy created by myself.

'Course, then we need to find out what the definition of ownership is. If I swap something out, is it still mine? Can I tell it to run back to Hades whenever I'm bored? Telling the big bads wand to go away would be hilarious. :P

There's problems with killing things round these parts.. They just don't stay dead. No-one powerful anyway. Sooooo, how about a soul jar, embed them into a golem, then wish the golem out of existence? It's easier than most methods and more sure fire than a disintegrate. Also more fun since the big bad thinks he has a chance of escaping since he's now a golem. I'd let him teleport too. :D
Only on the same plane mind. I'd have to be Evil and probably Chaotic, but that's ok. We have undetectable alignment items for a reason.

I like the vanishing ammunition trick though. Heard a story once about an ancient ninja who used a spear/knife with a thing glass head, so even with a rigorous examination you would only see a small cut on the victim. This is much nicer though, cleaner.

As said though, this is much nicer to be used in dungeons by a mad arcanist rather than on weapons. Just pit them against Drow if it's that much of an issue.


Okay, in case you hadn't taken the hint by now, this is suppose to be a quick fix.

Problem with using masking tape to hold the muffler on:

It's going to break. Probably as a police car is passing you.

Newt
2011-12-18, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by Fiend Folio, p. 208
A graft is not a magic item: It does not radiate magic once completed, it does not count against a creature's limit for magic items worn, it does not have a caster level, and it is very hard, if not impossible, to salvage as treasure. It does, however, count against the treasure value of the character with the graft, which means that creatures with grafts are still appropriate challenges for their normal Challenge Rating, but have reduced treasure.


This is workable. You may need to change your game around a tad, but this would work very nicely. Would even work better if you were dealing with Lizardfolk, Devils, Demons, any horror campaign, etc. Lots of places where this would be a bonus. You do need to learn the graft rules, but only in as much as you need to apply and use them. Nothing major.