Shadowcraft Mage Builds?

[Krüsher]

Why hello playground! I have recently been looking into the Shadowcraft Mage build for a new campaign and I was wondering if you guys had input for advice. I plan on starting with 5 levels of sorcerer whichever way I go. I plan on being Dragonborn so I can qualify for Practical Metamagic and I will use Air Gnome so that I keep regular Gnome stats.
But the real reason I made this was for build help and feedback. The two builds I am caught between are Sorc 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 8/Nightmare Spinner 2. And if you know me, you know that almost every build that I think of, I try to incorporate Incarnum. My other build would be Sorc 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incarnate 2/ Soulcaster 8. Some of the builds I have seen have started with Incarnate, then gone into the caster, and the soulcaster and go into Shadowcraft Mage last. But I want to get into the Shadowcrafting early because this campaign will start at level 5 and I don't want to wait that long. Feedback?

P.S. I just realized that even with Earth Spell, the best I can do is get my first level in Shadowcraft Mage at level 7. So that throws it off a little bit.

[Yuki Akuma]

I would suggest ditching Sorcerer.

For a build, I suggest a Focused Illusionist (Complete Mage) using the Gnome Illusionist racial substitution level for your first level of Wizard, then going into Master Illusionist for two levels. Then switch to Shadowcrafter (Drow of the Underdark) for another level before switching to Shadowcraft Mage.

Finish Shadowcraft Mage, then go back to Shadowcrafter for the rest fo yoru levels, finishing off with more Illusionist.

For feats, you want Earth Spell and Signature Spell (Silent Image) (Which is in... a Forgotten Realms book somewhere).

Now you can spontaneously convert any prepared spell into a Silent Image, which you can then turn into a Shadow Spell.

Congrats. You're better at Sorcerering than a Sorcerer.

[Keld Denar]

Forum almost ate my post...luckily I copy/pasta-ed before hitting send!

Sorcerers just don't make terribly good ScMs. First of all, the main reason to play a Sorcerer is the extra spells/day, and flexibility of casting any of your spells known at any time. ScM on a Focused Specialist chassis gives the same number of spells/day, and the Shadow Illusion gives you 90% of the flexibility that a Sorcerer gives. In return, you'd have to either spend full round actions to Heighten your Silent Images, or you'd have to spend a feat on Rapid Metamagic. The PHBII ACF just doesn't give you enough uses/day to pull off the manuever. Sorcerers also miss out on the Gnome Illusionist ACF in Races of Stone that gives Silent Image as a 0th level spell, thus netting +1 CL on all ScM shananananananananananananananigns.

I'd go with either Gnome Wizard5/ScM5/X10 or Gnome Wizard2/MasterSpec3/ScM5/X10. I like the first build for the bonus feat. ScMs tend to be SO feat starved, having that extra MM feat for your combo is good.

For X, I like Earth Dreamer a lot. Earth Glide is FUN, and the ability to see through walls is really handy. Plus, like, almost nobody plays an Earth Dreamer, so...bonus!

Don't forget Residual Magic (CMage). It doubles your spells/day, more or less! Its GREAT!

EDIT: Signature Spell is...kinda hard to work with. Its spontaneous casting, so it suffers from the standard full round action clause for applying metamagic. That means you need to spend ANOTHER spell on Rapid Metamagic (CArcane), or just suck up the full round actions. Honestly, having played an ScM from 8-9 with Shadow Illusion in play, I'll tell you that simply putting Heightened Silent Image in your 3 Focused Specialist slots gives you enough versatility while still keeping options open and saving you 2 feats to better spend on other crap, like Residual Magic or Enhanced Shadow Reality.

[Andion Isurand]

I would go for the Arcane Gnome in Dragon Magazine 291.

Then apply the Arctic template from Dragon Magazine 306.

Adding Dragonborn after that will net you...

-2 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh yeah, Residual Magic!

For real cheese, also take Arcane Disciple (Luck), for Shadow Miracles.

Combine the two and cast Miracle with a cantrip slot.

(And yes, Signature Spell isn't a huge priority. But by all means, if you have two extra feat slots available...)

[Keld Denar]

Shadow Miracles are...debatable at best, abusive at worst.

Just avoid them. Trust me. You'll be happier in the long run.

[Yuki Akuma]

Shadow Miracles are...debatable at best, abusive at worst.

Just avoid them. Trust me. You'll be happier in the long run.

Debateable? Nonsense!

Abusive? Hell yes. :smalltongue:

I did say it was "real cheese". It's not something you want to try in most games.

[Keld Denar]

Yea debatable.

It comes into a distinction of what counts as THE Wiz/Sorc spell list. Just because a spell is on your spell list, doesn't mean its a Wiz/Sorc spell. Its a Luck domain spell that you can cast (with restrictions). Since its not a Wiz/Sorc spell, even with Arcane Devotion, it can't be replicted with Shadow Illusion, an ability that cites THE Wiz/Sorc list as the only source. If it said "any Illusion or Conjouration(Creation/Summoning) spell YOU can cast", it would work.

I open my PHB to the Wiz/Sorc spell list, flip to the 9th level spells, and I don't see Miracle there. Since its not, no dice.

Its just been spouted off so many times on the intarwebz that everyone just takes it as fact. If you look a little closer, its...debatable.

[ILM]

Its just been spouted off so many times on the intarwebz that everyone just takes it as fact. If you look a little closer, its...debatable.
So is freestyle metamagicking Silent Images spontaneously cast via a dubiously qualified-for Signature Spell, by the way.

My personal favourite: Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 4/ ScM 5/ Nightmare Spinner 4/ Shadow Adept 1/ Shadowcrafter 3.

Also, Spell Rehearsal.

[Keld Denar]

Could you explain that ILM? I can't figure out from your post if you are for or against the idea of Signature Spell.

[Krüsher]

Hmmm, how bout Gnome Wizard 5/ScM 5/Incarnate 2/Soulcaster 8? I really wanna abuse Midnight Metamagic.

[Yuki Akuma]

So is freestyle metamagicking Silent Images spontaneously cast via a dubiously qualified-for Signature Spell, by the way.

Dubiously qualified for? I'm not aware of any ways to cheat the Spell Mastery prerequisite.

And you can apply metamagic to any spontaneously cast spell, including ones you spontaneously cast by sacrificing a prepared spell. Clerics and Druids have been doing this for years.

As for the "Miracle isn't on the spell list" thing, I'm not debating it because this isn't the thread for that. :smalltongue: It has, as you said, been debated to death and I'm quite sick of it.

[Luca]

Out of interest what are you hoping to use midnight metamagic for since its obviously not heighten.

[Keld Denar]

Midnight Metamagic is...its decent, but look what you are giving up to get it. 2 spellcaster levels. That sounds like...bad. What MM are you applying? Empower Spell? Plus, its only 1/day unless you have a TON of essentia. Plus, you have to burn 2 extra feats on it (one prereq for Soulcaster and one for Midnight Metamagic). Heck, the best buy out of that combo is to pick up Arcane Focus. ScMs have a habit of serving as rather effective blasters, given that they always have the proper shape and flavor of blast available, and their DCs are often higher and better. Arcane Focus gets you some extra damage on your boom, and if you manage to pry open your Throat, you get the chance to daze a fool with you spells, making them into double or triple threats.

And Yuki, I was only debating your comment about it not being debatable, not the actual point itself. Metadebate!

[Krüsher]

Hmmm, well I wasn't going off of personal knowledge on the MM comment. I just remember someone saying it was absurd so I assumed there was a way to abuse it. Once per day is pretty bad.

[Luca]

Does little to nothing for you, the two lost caster levels may actually be too bad in this case. Your power comes from heightened silent images, even ignoring the new and powerful spells you get that's a whole extra spell level your missing out on however you look at it.

[ILM]

Could you explain that ILM? I can't figure out from your post if you are for or against the idea of Signature Spell.
For one:

Furthermore, any time the illusionist learns a new illusion spell, he treats that spell as if be had mastered it with the Spell Mastery feat.
You don't actually have spell mastery to qualify for Signature Spell. I know, this is major nit-picking and I'd allow it, but I know DMs whose attachment to these details would make you weep.

As for on-the-fly metamagic application, bear in mind Signature Spell is presented in PGtF. Now I can see the argument about being able to apply metamagic ("just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells" -> "A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead", sounds simple enough by RAW) but in LEoF they have the Magelord, and its capstone ability is... to let you apply metamagic on the fly to spells you're casting spontaneously with Signature Spell. Now this doesn't change anything by RAW (except that the 10th level capstone becomes completely useless) but it makes it hard to argue that you were supposed to be able (i.e. RAI) to freely metamagic stuff in the first place.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I prefer Beguiler ScMs, which are basically like being Focused Specialist Wizards with a worse school selection (banning Transmutation, Abjuration and Necromancy) and immediate access to their whole list, plus all of Evocation and most of Conjuration, without paying a dime. Plus, they're a skill monkey with INT-based casting; what's not to love?

For that, I like the level progression of Beguiler 6/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 3-8/Nightmare Spinner 1. Pick up (in order) Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Heighten Spell (you need it before level 9 to get into Shadowcraft Mage starting at 9, unless you take Arcane Disciple for Shadow Domain, which gets you Shadow Evocation/Conjuration for half its levels and is thus just redundant), Earth Sense at 9, Earth Spell at 12, Enhanced Shadow Reality at 15, and whatever for your last feat. A lot of these tricks come online sooner for the Wizard ScM, but I like having ready access to a broader list at all times - it just strikes me as a better utility/diversity character, which is what a Shadowcraft Mage should be (since it allows you to broaden your spell list considerably).

[Keld Denar]

You don't actually have spell mastery to qualify for Signature Spell. I know, this is major nit-picking and I'd allow it, but I know DMs whose attachment to these details would make you weep.

Ah, yea. That. Forgot about that. Um, yea, thats not legal. While it functions LIKE Spell Mastery, its not Spell Mastery. Unlike some other abilities that state that "this ability counts as X for Y", Gnome Illusionist doesn't have that ability. So you'd still have to take Spell Mastery if you wanted to take Signature Spell. Otherwise, thats a houserule.

As for the Mage Lord thing...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that thats a case of the dev not knowing how his own game works. It wouldn't be the first time that a feat or ability gave you something that you could already do without it. Does Mage Lord reduce it back down to a standard action? Cause then it would do something, but otherwise, its kinda dumb.

Casting a Metamagic Spell
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn’t the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you aren’t required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.

Clerics must take more time to spontaneously cast a metamagic version of a cure or inflict spell. Spontaneously casting a metamagic version of a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action is a full-round action, and spells with longer casting times take an extra full-round action to cast.
Emphasis mine.

Lonely Tylenol, you are missing out on something. It does cost you a dime, and that dime is your move action. Beguilers applying Heighten Spell to their spells requires a full round action. You either have to live with that, or you have to pick up Rapid Metamagic which can only be taken at 9th level or higher. Wizards still make the best ScMs. I don't get why people always want to add more flexibility to arguably one of the most flexible casting PrCs and make it even more flexible by handcuffing its ability to perform its main schtick. That seems like taking something good, and then stuffing it full of other things that are good, and ending up with something that is so bloated and unwieldly that it becomes bad again. ScM just works better on a prepared caster chassis since you are applying MM to EVERYTHING, but fortuantely you know exactly what you'll be wanting to apply MM to, so that helps a lot. I've played a Wizard/ScM, and I never felt like I ever didn't have enough options simply by putting Heightened Silent Image in all of my Focused Specialist slots and putting general utility in my other 1-3 slots.

[ILM]

As for the Mage Lord thing...I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that thats a case of the dev not knowing how his own game works. It wouldn't be the first time that a feat or ability gave you something that you could already do without it. Does Mage Lord reduce it back down to a standard action? Cause then it would do something, but otherwise, its kinda dumb.
Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. But here, it's a FR book that's practically a direct follow-up to PGtF, and a PrC that's literally built around the Signature Spell feat. That they'd screw up on how it works in the first place would be surprising, even by their standards. Still, the possibility can't be discounted.

And yes, since it doesn't mention a casting time increase it does effectively reduce it to a standard action, but the wording on the ability doesn't indicate that was the point. I mean, instead of saying "you can apply metamagic to your signature spell provided you use a spell of the proper level" like they do (more or less), they would have just said spontaneous metamagic doesn't increase casting time.

Anyway; RAI vs RAW, clearly, but room enough for debate at a table IMO, even though the intertubes pretty much takes it for granted.

[Keld Denar]

Curious, which interpretation do you read as RAI and which do you believe is RAW? Not the intarwebz, you specifically.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You definitely want to have Master Specialist 4 in any Wizard-based Shadowcraft Mage build. That gives all of your shadow illusions +2 DC, for both the disbelief portion and the saves for any spells they mimic. That's actually one of the bigger reasons to use Wizard in the first place.

A (Cloistered) Cleric can make a decent SCM. Get the Illusion and Gnome domains with the PH2 spontaneous domain casting for either of them and you can spontaneously cast Silent Image. With DMM: Heighten and Residual Magic... Although I'd probably start it out with the Trickery domain, and use something like Contemplative to pick up the other one. Heighten Spell + Dark Way (SpC) qualifies you for Shadowcraft Mage without any additional effort. Definitely still get Earth Spell, otherwise your shadow illusions can't mimic 9th level spells. If you hit level 21, take Improved Heighten Spell and Earth Spell + DMM: Heighten Holy Word wins the game.

[ILM]

Curious, which interpretation do you read as RAI and which do you believe is RAW? Not the intarwebz, you specifically.
Well Signature Spell makes you cast spells spontaneously "just as a good cleric can spontaneously cast prepared spells as cure spells" (that's a direct quote), and "a cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead" (also a quote). Ergo by RAW, I don't think anything is stopping you from applying metamagic to a Signature Spell.

Magelord is what makes me think RAI may be the opposite.

[Krüsher]

Hmmm, just thought of an interesting build variation for this. Wizard 5/ ScM 5/ Incarnate 2/Necrocarnate 1/ whatever for 7 levels. Probably shadowcrafter. Take 2 hours instead of 1 in the morning to prepare. 1 hour for spells, another for killing ants and draining them. I now have roughly 45 essentia (probably more) to do what I want with. I can max out Mage's Spectacles and astral vambraces. And once per day I can cast a fully maxed out metamagic spell, using a 1st level spell slot.

[Keld Denar]

You seem to be forgetting something...it starts with an S, and ends with pellcasting.

You spend a ton of feats and 5 class levels to put the ScM trick into place and then abandon it for a bunch of lost caster levels. That...does not compute. Whyfor are you doing this?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Emphasis mine.

Lonely Tylenol, you are missing out on something. It does cost you a dime, and that dime is your move action. Beguilers applying Heighten Spell to their spells requires a full round action. You either have to live with that, or you have to pick up Rapid Metamagic which can only be taken at 9th level or higher. Wizards still make the best ScMs. I don't get why people always want to add more flexibility to arguably one of the most flexible casting PrCs and make it even more flexible by handcuffing its ability to perform its main schtick. That seems like taking something good, and then stuffing it full of other things that are good, and ending up with something that is so bloated and unwieldly that it becomes bad again. ScM just works better on a prepared caster chassis since you are applying MM to EVERYTHING, but fortuantely you know exactly what you'll be wanting to apply MM to, so that helps a lot. I've played a Wizard/ScM, and I never felt like I ever didn't have enough options simply by putting Heightened Silent Image in all of my Focused Specialist slots and putting general utility in my other 1-3 slots.

And I've never felt constricted by the need to use a full-round action when I need to cast a Conjuration spell or the like. If I did, there are feats I could take.

Why is this such a huge deal to you? All I said is that I like having general utility outside of my spells and a HUGE spell list always available to me, as well as the stat/skill synergies of a Beguiler; not only has nothing you've said disputed any one claim I've made here (har, har, you're interpreting "dime" to mean figurative economy instead of WBL), but you seem to be ignoring the tap-dancing bear: that I just like doing it this way. I never claimed it as better or worse, just that it has different advantages. Can't I even have that, or is playing a Shadowcraft Mage in my game a "my way or the highway" ordeal? If I recall, this is "Shadowcraft Mage Builds?" and not "Kill Pun-Pun With THE DARKNESS!" and, surprise, I posted a Shadowcraft Mage build.

[gorfnab]

I prefer Beguiler ScMs, which are basically like being Focused Specialist Wizards with a worse school selection (banning Transmutation, Abjuration and Necromancy) and immediate access to their whole list, plus all of Evocation and most of Conjuration, without paying a dime. Plus, they're a skill monkey with INT-based casting; what's not to love?

For that, I like the level progression of Beguiler 6/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 3-8/Nightmare Spinner 1. Pick up (in order) Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Heighten Spell (you need it before level 9 to get into Shadowcraft Mage starting at 9, unless you take Arcane Disciple for Shadow Domain, which gets you Shadow Evocation/Conjuration for half its levels and is thus just redundant), Earth Sense at 9, Earth Spell at 12, Enhanced Shadow Reality at 15, and whatever for your last feat. A lot of these tricks come online sooner for the Wizard ScM, but I like having ready access to a broader list at all times - it just strikes me as a better utility/diversity character, which is what a Shadowcraft Mage should be (since it allows you to broaden your spell list considerably).

Another Beguiler builds that works is Beguiler 6/ Shadow Adept 1/ Beguiler 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 7. Delaying the 7th level of Beguiler by 1 level nets you Shadow Conjuration from Advance Learning which qualifies you for Shadowcraft Mage. Mindbender 1 or Shadowcrafter 1 would be another option instead of the level of Shadow Adept.

[ILM]

And I've never felt constricted by the need to use a full-round action when I need to cast a Conjuration spell or the like. If I did, there are feats I could take.

Why is this such a huge deal to you? All I said is that I like having general utility outside of my spells and a HUGE spell list always available to me, as well as the stat/skill synergies of a Beguiler; not only has nothing you've said disputed any one claim I've made here (har, har, you're interpreting "dime" to mean figurative economy instead of WBL), but you seem to be ignoring the tap-dancing bear: that I just like doing it this way. I never claimed it as better or worse, just that it has different advantages. Can't I even have that, or is playing a Shadowcraft Mage in my game a "my way or the highway" ordeal? If I recall, this is "Shadowcraft Mage Builds?" and not "Kill Pun-Pun With THE DARKNESS!" and, surprise, I posted a Shadowcraft Mage build.
What are you freaking out about? All he did was point out the weaknesses of a Beguiler build and his opinion that the benefits didn't make up for it. As for "my way or the highway", he didn't say you should or shouldn't do anything at your table, only that Wizards still made the best ScMs (which btw isn't to say Beguilers are bad in any absolute sense). You, however, did ask what's not to love (which he merely answered) and stated that your emphasis on utility/diversity was "what a Shadowcraft Mage should be," which does kinda sound like "your way or the highway".

[Lonely Tylenol]

Another Beguiler builds that works is Beguiler 6/ Shadow Adept 1/ Beguiler 1/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 7. Delaying the 7th level of Beguiler by 1 level nets you Shadow Conjuration from Advance Learning which qualifies you for Shadowcraft Mage. Mindbender 1 or Shadowcrafter 1 would be another option instead of the level of Shadow Adept.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Heighten Spell already qualify you for Shadowcraft Mage by virtue of Legion of Sentinels? The idea being, of course, that Legion of Sentinels cast as a fourth-level spell is a fourth-level Illusion (Shadow) spell, and Beguilers can cast it that way. This means that you don't need Advanced Learning for Shadow Conjuration to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage, and can either skip Beguiler 7 or grab something else with it. (Conversely, if you wanted another Illusion (Shadow) for use to qualify, Shadow Well will do in a pinch.)

I never did get Shadow Adept dips, because the Shadow Feats seem geared mainly towards Weave-users and the like, and since that whole book gets a wide beeline from most DMs, this means they render themselves irrelevant. Mindbender remains a fantastic one-level dip for Shadowcraft Mages who can afford it, and Beguiler ScMs can even replace their sixth level of Beguiler with Mindbender if they don't want to interrupt normal Shadowcrafter/Shadowcraft Mage progression and aren't particularly fond of Surprise Casting (move action).

Going on that bent, I'd recommend Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Shadowcrafter 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter 3-9 for Beguilers who don't expect to get much mileage out of Surprise Casting, which is a lot of them, if they're not planning on making a great many touch spells (and the Beguiler's list isn't fantastic for that anyway).


What are you freaking out about? All he did was point out the weaknesses of a Beguiler build and his opinion that the benefits didn't make up for it. As for "my way or the highway", he didn't say you should or shouldn't do anything at your table, only that Wizards still made the best ScMs (which btw isn't to say Beguilers are bad in any absolute sense).

I don't think I was freaking out, though I am probably being too negative about the whole thing (for which I must say I'm sorry; I can't explain why, but everything seems to be a little more negative right now), but the post I first quoted seems to be itself on quite a bent about why a spontaneous ScM is the wrong way to do a ScM, and unless we're talking CO or something (and we're very clearly not) it just seems very "anti-".

Keld: I'm sorry if you take my last post offensively, and I'm sorry if I took your post the wrong way. But it still seems like you're telling me what to do, and quoting the SRD off to me like I don't know what metamagic does borders on insulting.


You, however, did ask what's not to love (which he merely answered)

I find that context helps in approaching this type of situation, and in order to understand the proper context, statements should be kept in complete units, the smallest of which are sentences, not incomplete sections thereof; and the sentence in which the "what's not to love?" comes up in is


Plus, they're a skill monkey with INT-based casting; what's not to love?

Yes, I can be quoted out of context saying "what's not to love?" insinuating that I am a Beguiler fanatic, extolling the virtues of Beguilers and everything you can affix to Beguilers in a progression chain. Or, I can be quoted in context saying "what's not to love" about a skill monkey with INT as its primary stat, which has very strong synergies and is thus a single favorable aspect of Beguilers that I happen to like a lot.


and stated that your emphasis on utility/diversity was "what a Shadowcraft Mage should be," which does kinda sound like "your way or the highway".

Yes, I said the general utility afforded a broad skill set and large spell list that is accessible at all times strikes me as being better for what I want out of a Shadowcraft Mage.

Do you want to quote complete sentences, or shall I again on this one? I don't even need to quote half the sentence to put enough context on "what a Shadowcraft Mage should be" to tell you that "utility/diversity is what a Shadowcraft Mage should be" is what I was going for, not "my version of the Shadowcraft Mage is what a Shadowcraft Mage should be"; you can infer all you want that the fact that I like Beguilers for their utility and Shadowcraft Mage for their diversity means I think my method is the ultimate in ScM, but you'd be wrong. (If you infer that it's my favorite method, however, congratulations! You win a prize.)

By contrast, here are some complete sentences (read: context) that might explain why I'm getting the "I'm clearly right and you're clearly wrong about all this" vibe:


Lonely Tylenol, you are missing out on something.

I had this part in three quotes, but it's really three uninterrupted sentences that need no editing, so have at it.


Wizards still make the best ScMs. I don't get why people always want to add more flexibility to arguably one of the most flexible casting PrCs and make it even more flexible by handcuffing its ability to perform its main schtick. That seems like taking something good, and then stuffing it full of other things that are good, and ending up with something that is so bloated and unwieldly that it becomes bad again.

This, along with quoting very basic, fundamental rules of metamagic to me like it's something new and alien, impresses upon me the idea that Keld is telling me "you're doing it wrong" and "you should do it this way instead; it's right".

Again, sorry if I'm way off base here. Despite all appearances to the contrary, I really don't want to rock the boat here. All I did was offer a different ScM build nobody else posted about in a thread devoted to asking about different ScM builds, with some of the reasons I particularly like it. That's all.

Friends?

[Yorrin]

The one Shadowcraft Mage I ever built was easily the most powerful(/cheesy?) character I've ever rolled. It was something of a "no holds barred, max-optimization" type situation. So I used the Gnome Wizard substitution to get Silent Image as a cantrip and then used early entry to get into Master Specialist after a single level of Wizard, moved onto Shadowcraft Mage as soon as I qualified for that, then became Necropolitan and picked up a level in Tainted Scholar before finishing out Master Specialist. I used the Shadow Miracles thing talked about above, and picked up Spell Mastery just for the heck of it. Thanks to Tainted Scholar I had essentially infinite spells per day, so I just prepared metamagic'd Silent Images in all my spell slots except for a few 9th slots used for Time Stop, spell-book free.

Final build looked like
Wizard 4/Master Specialist 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Tainted Scholar 1
Though not straight in that order, obviously.

[Keld Denar]

The issue there being Tainted Scholar, rather than Shadowcraft Mage. ScM for me has played out light a Sorcerer with a slightly inflated CL and slightly more than average spells known who tends to spend a lot of rounds just blasting after assuming control with a couple of nice Conjourations.

Lonely Tylenol, sorry if you felt insulted that I mentioned the metamagic thing. This is an internet board, and sometimes things get regurgitated without full understanding of what is being said. I see a lot of people bring up ScM on a spontaneous base that don't seem to understand that 90% of the spell you'll be casting are MM'd spells which comes with the casting time increase. I just wanted to make sure it was mentioned that there IS a drawback to trying to use ScM on a spontaneous base, which nobody else had mentioned. It's not completely without drawbacks, and I wanted to make sure the casting time issue wasn't glossed over, not only for your information, but everyone else reading's benefit.

Oh, and I quoted the SRD for what I was discussing with ILM, not with you. My discussion of your points starts AFTER the part where I mention your name. :smallsmile:

[gorfnab]

I never did get Shadow Adept dips, because the Shadow Feats seem geared mainly towards Weave-users and the like, and since that whole book gets a wide beeline from most DMs, this means they render themselves irrelevant.

Shadow Weave Magic gives you a +1 to the save DC of your Illusion spells. What's nice about 1 level of Shadow Adept is getting the feats Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic.

[Andion Isurand]

The one Shadowcraft Mage I ever built was easily the most powerful(/cheesy?) character I've ever rolled. It was something of a "no holds barred, max-optimization" type situation. So I used the Gnome Wizard substitution to get Silent Image as a cantrip and then used early entry to get into Master Specialist after a single level of Wizard, moved onto Shadowcraft Mage as soon as I qualified for that, then became Necropolitan and picked up a level in Tainted Scholar before finishing out Master Specialist. I used the Shadow Miracles thing talked about above, and picked up Spell Mastery just for the heck of it. Thanks to Tainted Scholar I had essentially infinite spells per day, so I just prepared metamagic'd Silent Images in all my spell slots except for a few 9th slots used for Time Stop, spell-book free.

Final build looked like
Wizard 4/Master Specialist 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Tainted Scholar 1
Though not straight in that order, obviously.

Earth Spell prerequisites include having a Constituion score of 13+... so going undead might not be such a good idea.

[ILM]

Shadow Weave Magic gives you a +1 to the save DC of your Illusion spells. What's nice about 1 level of Shadow Adept is getting the feats Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, and Tenacious Magic.
I can see his point though; if you're in a setting that doesn't have a Weave/ Shadow Weave or equivalents, then the Shadow Weave feats don't make much sense fluffwise and tend to give you free +x to a bunch of stuff with no drawbacks. In FR they give you advantages against Weave-users but not other Shadow Weave users, but you'd have to come up with a decent reason to be the only Shadow Weave user in the world.

Or you could agree with the DM that even then they aren't unbalanced, and keep the bonuses while ignoring the fluff.

[Talya]

You definitely want to have Master Specialist 4 in any Wizard-based Shadowcraft Mage build. That gives all of your shadow illusions +2 DC, for both the disbelief portion and the saves for any spells they mimic.

Just as a point of order, SCM spells often have more effect if targets succeed in making that illusion save than if they fail it.

Yay for >100% spell reality.

[Feytalist]

Just as a point of order, SCM spells often have more effect if targets succeed in making that illusion save than if they fail it.

Yay for >100% spell reality.

True, but generally only on higher levels and with at least some optimisation. For the first few levels, belief is still better than disbelief :smallbiggrin:

[ILM]

Just as a point of order, SCM spells often have more effect if targets succeed in making that illusion save than if they fail it.

Yay for >100% spell reality.
But as people tend to forget, there are only few attack spells that don't have a secondary save for half damage or even to avoid the effect altogether. If the DC is low enough that they make the save to disbelieve, it might also be low enough that they'll make the save to mitigate the actual spell. If your 160% meteor swarm only deals half damage, you're not better off than with a run of the mill 100% real meteor... And forget about save or suck spells entirely.

[Yuki Akuma]

Erm. I'm pretty sure 80% is higher than 50%, ILM.

[Feytalist]

Erm. I'm pretty sure 80% is higher than 50%, ILM.

That's as maybe.

However, the two relevant numbers here are a (potentially) 160% "illusion" (disbelieved) meteor swarm (from a severely op'ed ScM) versus a 100% "real" (believed) meteor swarm

Remember, a ScM can improve his shadow illusions far beyond the original 50%, up to over 100%.

[ILM]

Erm. I'm pretty sure 80% is higher than 50%, ILM.
In the context of the discussion, I was weighing the benefits of pumping your save DCs rather than the reality %. So 160% real disbelieved meteor swarm, saved against, or 100% real believed (or not, who cares) meteor swarm, not saved against? How about Prismatic Spray? Would you rather have a pimped out reality but DCs low enough that everyone will make their saves, or the opposite?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, I do agree that it's better to boost save DCs and save that 120%+ reality as a nasty surprise to the people with good Will saves.

But boosting your shadow reality to 140% doesn't take much effort, at least for 9th level spells.

[Talya]

One can also use the spells selectively.

Take the lowly Orb of [energy]. Normally, it's poor as a shadow conjuration. You're going to lose the "SR: No" quality no matter what you do. But now it has a will save, in addition to the fortitude save. That's gonna suck--or not.

So target the enemy wizard/sorcerer with the thing. Maybe a bard. Anything with a low fortitude save and a high will save. They might make their will save, which, if it's sitting at 110% reality, is going to be a good thing for you. They are less likely to make the fortitude save. They end up taking more damage, and are less likely to save.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, its still a lot easier to just completely amp up your saves than to selectively try to work around it, which will probably fail as often as not due to missguessing your foes weak points or encountering some other source of high saves.

>100% reality is an interesting concept to play around with in theory, but generally isn't nearly as glamorous as people make it sound.

Also, my advice to the OP, in case he still checks this thread...try to avoid casting spells that are higher level than a caster of your level could normally cast. With the proper application of MM reducers, you can cast like, 6th level spells at 9th level, when everyone else is still casting 5th (or, in super high optimized situations, 7th or 8th level at level 9). This will generally not win you too many points with most DMs, and could get you hit with an early ban hammer. Once you get 9s, go wild and amp up your DCs by casting 13th level spells, but before then, a little restraint still keeps you awesomely powerful without being blatently rediculous.

[ILM]

@Talya: For that you need your target to have a high will save and low other save, and you need to be able to know that in character so you can pick just the right spell, and then you need them to roll just like you want. Seems like a tall order.

[Talya]

@Talya: For that you need your target to have a high will save and low other save, and you need to be able to know that in character so you can pick just the right spell, and then you need them to roll just like you want. Seems like a tall order.

You already know people's saves as in character enough to do this.

You already know to pick the high reflex save-or-lose to beat the guy in full plate, or the one casting divine magic. If he's a bruiser, you know you can probably also beat him with a will save. If he's using arcane magic, you know you can probably beat him with a fortitude save, possibly a reflex save (unless he's also wearing light armor, then all bets are off on the reflex save.)

You don't know the exact class of the people you are facing. But a spellcaster can often make an educated guess on the weaker defenses for any given opponent. In this case, you know arcane spellcasters tend to have strong will saves and low fortitude saves. A shadow-spell that targets fortitude becomes perfect for them when you've got >100% reality.

[Roguenewb]

Fun fact, if you take an illusion (shadow) spell as your advanced learning at level 3, a beguiler can get into Shadowcraft mage at level 5.

Human Beguiler
1:Versatile Spellcaster
H: Spell focus illusion
F1:Heighten spell
F2:Earth sense
3:Earth spell

Hit level 4 and get at least 2 level 2 spell slots. Combine them into a 3rd level spell. Standing on the ground, hieghten Shadow Net (or any shadow illusion) up to 3rd level, earth spell makes it count as 4th, congrats, you just fufilled a pre-req.

Get the good ability at ECL 7, pretty sweet if I do say so myself. With DCFS and an elf, I think I could get it at ECL 4, but I'd have to recalc, and technically you can't afford the DCFS.


EDIT: WHOOPS THIS IS MY SEARCH TAB NOT MY BROWSING GITP TAB, SORRY FOR THE NECRO

[Segev]

It's worth noting that you can give your victims a +4 to their disbelief save just by telling them as you cast, "THIS IS AN ILLUSION!"

This would have no impact on their save vs. the spell being mimicked.

So it's a way to give a +20% odds of them making the save you want them to, but not changing their odds against the shadow magic.

[Roguenewb]

It's worth noting that you can give your victims a +4 to their disbelief save just by telling them as you cast, "THIS IS AN ILLUSION!"

This would have no impact on their save vs. the spell being mimicked.

So it's a way to give a +20% odds of them making the save you want them to, but not changing their odds against the shadow magic.

Love this strategy so much. The most Politically correct illusionist. "I'm going to cast an illusion now, please, don't be frightened, I'm not really fireballing you."

"WHY DOES THAT MAKE IT HURT MORE???!?!?!?"

[Segev]

Love this strategy so much. The most Politically correct illusionist. "I'm going to cast an illusion now, please, don't be frightened, I'm not really fireballing you."

"WHY DOES THAT MAKE IT HURT MORE???!?!?!?"

Alternatively, do it Shounen Burning Soul Action Hero style:

"ILLUSORY FIREBALL!" "SHADOW CONE OF COLD!" "BIGBY'S FICTIONAL FIST!"

[Zombulian]

Begone Necromancer Scum

[Forum Staff]

Thread Necromancy.