[PF] Wish granters

[DonDuckie]

I was bored so I started looking through Bestiary 1+2.

Which monsters can grant wishes? Not includung those with 'virtual' caster levels, such as dragons and Star Archons(miracle).

So far I have:
Angel, Solar - 1/day: wish [22 HD] (added)
Genie, Efreeti - 1/day: 3 wishes (granted to non-genie) [10 HD]
Demon, Glabrezu - 1/month: wish (granted to mortal humanoid) [12 HD]
Devil, Pit Fiend - 1/year: wish [20 HD]

Aeon, Pleroma - 1/day: wish [24 HD]

:smallamused:It seems that the efreeti would be the obvious choice for bullying for wishes.

Am I missing some?

[peacenlove]

Wish isn't as good as it used to be, you can't create/upgrade items anymore.
You also must provide the material component if the replicated spell uses it and if it is greater than 10.000 gp.

Solar (22 HD) has it as well 1/day, in addition to his prepared miracle as a cleric spell.
Note that efreeti have a Sense motive modifier of +15 and at-will planeshift so getting wishes out of it would be tricky. But still it is the better choice since to get a wish from the others would require an 8th or 9th level slot anyway.

[DonDuckie]

Wish isn't as good as it used to be, you can't create/upgrade items anymore.
You also must provide the material component if the replicated spell uses it and if it is greater than 10.000 gp.

I just read universal monster rules again:

It says spell-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components.

Where is this 10.000 gp limit mentioned?

[turkishproverb]

Genie, Efreeti - 1/day: 3 wishes (granted to non-genie) [10 HD]

So then, they kept that way of making it even HARDER to stop gatcheese without reverting to "screw you" wishes. Efreeti have a much harder time since they can't go about sensibly using up their wishes with each-other.

[Drachasor]

So then, they kept that way of making it even HARDER to stop gatcheese without reverting to "screw you" wishes. Efreeti have a much harder time since they can't go about sensibly using up their wishes with each-other.

They even provide a nice link to the Efreeti from the Planar Binding page on their SRD.

[turkishproverb]

...

And yet these people act like they fixed 3.5...

Words...cannot describe...

[peacenlove]

I just read universal monster rules again:

It says spell-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components.

Where is this 10.000 gp limit mentioned?

I might be wrong but


When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component (in addition to the 25,000 gp diamond component for this spell).

Wish duplicates a spell.
Spells have material components.
Ergo you must provide the component since its a spell not a spell like ability being duplicated.

Also this line supports my claim


Wish
School universal; Level sorcerer/wizard 9
CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (diamond worth 25,000 gp)

It doesn't say "see text" (the normal text for variables), the normal material component is 25000 gp, not 25000 gp AND the component from the spell replicated.

[DonDuckie]

I might be wrong but



Wish duplicates a spell.
Spells have material components.
Ergo you must provide the component since its a spell not a spell like ability being duplicated.

Also this line supports my claim



It doesn't say "see text" (the normal text for variables), the normal material component is 25000 gp, not 25000 gp AND the component from the spell replicated.

I wouldn't say SLA wish duplicates "Spell" wish, so as long as you don't use your wishes to duplicate spells with costly material components. The 25.000 gp cost is ignored, I would say.

EDIT: Missed (part of) your point
I think it is 25.000 + costly material component, the 25.000 is a broad replacing-rule in PF for XP-cost: 5 gp / 1 XP
/EDIT


...

And yet these people act like they fixed 3.5...

Words...cannot describe...

I still say they did. Sort of. 3.5 wasn't nearly as broken* as the people playing it. It's not easy having a perfect system, and smaller indy systems are just as abusable(is that a word?) by not defining clearly what happens when you do something.

It's just a handwave ruling before a campaign: "don't break anything."

And ofcourse DM's not limiting sources(which is fine in and of itself).

* Please note; the people I have played and play with have a broad wish for everybody to have fun. I'm seem to be the only one enjoying what is referered to as broken-ness(definately not a word?).

[CTrees]

So then, they kept that way of making it even HARDER to stop gatcheese without reverting to "screw you" wishes. Efreeti have a much harder time since they can't go about sensibly using up their wishes with each-other.

Be an Efreet. Take Leadership as one of your feats, snagging something that's not a genie as your cohort. Have make wishes that benefit you (I wish my master, Bob the Efreet, had 25k gold peices). *shrug* Hell, dominate/suggestion/etc works to the same end - as long as it's not a genie actually saying the words to make the wish.

[turkishproverb]

I still say they did. Sort of. 3.5 wasn't nearly as broken* as the people playing it. It's not easy having a perfect system, and smaller indy systems are just as abusable(is that a word?) by not defining clearly what happens when you do something.

It's just a handwave ruling before a campaign: "don't break anything."

And ofcourse DM's not limiting sources(which is fine in and of itself).

* Please note; the people I have played and play with have a broad wish for everybody to have fun. I'm seem to be the only one enjoying what is referered to as broken-ness(definately not a word?).

The point is these people are actively ENCOURAGING gate-cheese on their SRD. They made the class disparity worse, they...ugh...

The only thing they fixed was 3.5 being out of print, which I give them credit for. People wanted it, they got it, but Paizo shouldn't have pretended they fixed anything. Or, frankly, pretend that they even tried.

[Reverent-One]

The point is these people are actively ENCOURAGING gate-cheese on their SRD. They made the class disparity worse, they...ugh...

I'm sorry, but where on the SRD do they encourage Gate-cheese? Because I don't see that anywhere.

[Blisstake]

There's actually an entire section on Efreeti wish abuse in the Pathfinder adventure "The Final Wish," which is part of the Legacy of Fire campaign. Apparently a lot can go wrong if you try to bully them into granting them (basically encourages the GM to be a **** about it :smalltongue:)

Also, Gate cheese is more difficult in PF. It requires a material component for summoning, and what you summon has a HD restriction based on your Caster Level. The only thing they did wrong was forgot/neglect to update the Candle of Invocation.

[peacenlove]

Also, Gate cheese is more difficult in PF. It requires a material component for summoning, and what you summon has a HD restriction based on your Caster Level. The only thing they did wrong was forgot/neglect to update the Candle of Invocation.

Also wish economy is gone since you can't use wish to create/upgrade magic items. Lastly solars do not have gate as a spell like ability so no chain gating either.

[Drachasor]

Also wish economy is gone since you can't use wish to create/upgrade magic items. Lastly solars do not have gate as a spell like ability so no chain gating either.

A Wish Economy isn't needed. Wall of Iron and Fabricate can create suits of armor. Wall of Stone and Fabricate can be used to build castles or other buildings. Making money is easy enough. Since PF has no experience cost for anything, this alone is sufficient to create magical items, pay the material component cost for all spells, etc. Pretty much any spell that required XP in 3.5 is spammable in PF -- it just takes gold which is far, far, far easier to acquire. Unless they've done something to stop that (but I don't see it).

Old Gate Cheese is gone, but for about 13 sets of Full Plate*, you can do a Gate. Effectively you can get a creature as powerful as anyone in the party, thereabouts, for just one spell. So overall intact money making schemes are given a ton of power.

*Not to imply that making money using Fabricate should only be done via Full Plate, one should make various things.

[DonDuckie]

A Wish Economy isn't needed. Wall of Iron and Fabricate can create suits of armor. Wall of Stone and Fabricate can be used to build castles or other buildings. Making money is easy enough.

Wall of Iron + Fabricate = armor ? no

Wall of Iron says:
"Iron created by this is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold."

Fabricate says:
Material component: "(the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials to craft the item to be created)"
--AND--
"The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication."

This adds up to: worthless and cannot be sold. Silly? yes, but by the rules you won't get rich on this. And if we say logic/reason over rules; armor is made from steel, not iron.

Wall of Stone + Fabricate = castle ? sure, why not, it would take so many castings of Fabricate it's hardly profitable. Stone is a mineral and only a tenth of the amount can be fabricated per casting.

Any other fabricate abuse I can shoot down? :smallbiggrin:

[Drachasor]

Wall of Iron + Fabricate = armor ? no

Wall of Iron says:
"Iron created by this is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold."

Fabricate says:
Material component: "(the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials to craft the item to be created)"
--AND--
"The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication."

This adds up to: worthless and cannot be sold. Silly? yes, but by the rules you won't get rich on this. And if we say logic/reason over rules; armor is made from steel, not iron.

Wall of Stone + Fabricate = castle ? sure, why not, it would take so many castings of Fabricate it's hardly profitable. Stone is a mineral and only a tenth of the amount can be fabricated per casting.

Any other fabricate abuse I can shoot down? :smallbiggrin:

Ahh, I missed that change. Well, that just makes it slightly less efficient, but you don't need Wall of Iron anymore (we'll assume it is "magic" iron that can't be turned into steel or anything).

You still make money off of Fabricated goods, and they are still made instantly without weeks and weeks of effort. You just have to buy the raw materials. Probably a good idea to eventually make a Lyre of Building for bigger stuff (which costs no experience again). That's 14,800 man-hours worth of work every hour and avoids the problems with the regular Fabricate spell.

In any case, you can still make a ton of gold quite fast without Wall of Iron. Just not quite as fast. The workhorse, of course, is Fabricate.

[DonDuckie]

Ahh, I missed that change. Well, that just makes it slightly less efficient, but you don't need Wall of Iron anymore (we'll assume it is "magic" iron that can't be turned into steel or anything).

You still make money off of Fabricated goods, and they are still made instantly without weeks and weeks of effort. You just have to buy the raw materials. Probably a good idea to eventually make a Lyre of Building for bigger stuff (which costs no experience again). That's 14,800 man-hours worth of work every hour and avoids the problems with the regular Fabricate spell.

In any case, you can still make a ton of gold quite fast without Wall of Iron. Just not quite as fast. The workhorse, of course, is Fabricate.

True, or you could kill monsters.:smalltongue:

I didn't know the Lyre of Building, it's kinda cool. But I don't recall rules for buildings, mines, etc. so how much do you actually get? it seems like an item that's not for PCs. traditionally.

But you're right.

[Drachasor]

Well, the problem with such things is really that they can be done during off-time. Even during a session it doesn't take much time to do a few rolls. So you aren't really giving much of anything up to use them.

Not that I've ever used anything like this in a game. I like optimizing, but I try to avoid using anything I view as a rules loophole.

[DonDuckie]

I agree, it's fun finding loopholes, less fun riding them.

Besides, with the cost of spellcasting services, no spellcaster needs fabricate.

My last halfling sorcerer used to sell mounts (background), when he went legit during the campaign, he opened a business "selling temporary horses": 2 sp a piece. Good business because in that economic climate, people couldn't afford feeding horses. If the plan is to just make money, there is not much point in aiming for infinite. :smallbiggrin: