Wizard vs. Archivist vs. Cleric for domination of the world!

[Maho-Tsukai]

As stated above....who is better at taking over the world. The wizard, Archivist or the Cleric? I will list what I feel are the strengths and weaknesses of each for world domination below..

Cleric

Strengths:
- 2nd best undead hoard maker= instant nation conquering army.
- Better at social interactions then the wizard. You use cha for some things and have diplomacy as a class skill.
- Can make an army FAST. Level 6 is the start of spawn-chain shenanigans for you.
- Can pull serious economancy via create food/drink/whatever, heal ect.. magical traps...making you just as much a tippyverse generator as the wizard.

Weaknesses:
- Best option for domination is the undead army, which is reliant on spawn chains which are fragile and easily broken(Kill the original spawner and the spawns are set free...and no longer in the cleric's service.)
- In some settings, you will be forced to serve a deity, which severely limits what you can and can't do global domination-wise. Sure, you can take over, but your taking it over for your deity, not yourself, to rule.

Wizard

- Enchantment spells make manipulating others easy. An enchanter ACF gives you social skills. Combine the two and you can take over kingdoms politically instead of with an army of undead/other monsters.
- Most cited users of economancy, certain spells can break and dominate markets.
- High Int. This may not seem like much, but combined high int with some creative usage of spells and you can make Shin-Ra or turn the world into ebberon.

Weaknesses:
- You suck at making undead armies, and getting minions in general. A wizard will never build his own army. This means you can essentially knock off warfare as a way to take over the world, which severely limits your options.
-Beyond certain enchanter vairents, the wizard is not very social. This makes life hard for somebody trying to shadow-rule an empire or manipulate politics and people in general.

Archivist

Strengths:
- You have the cleric list, so you can pull all the good economancy shenanigans they can.
- You have access to some wizard spells, so you can pull a lot of the same tricks a wizard can economancy and enchantment-wise.
- Access to druid and other divine list spells...the druid list has a surprising amount of spells that can aid in world domination, most dealing with climate/weather control.
- High Int. See wizard entry for why this matters.

Weaknesses:
- Again, no army-building powers. Sure, you have the cleric list, but the thing that allows clerics to get lolundead is rebuking, which you don't get. So like the wizard your not making an army unless you use enchantment/manipulation to take over an empire through politics instead of armed force.
- Your power is highly dependent on what you can find, morose then even the wizard. If you can get the scrolls, your golden...but being reliant on obscure class and domain scrolls to be able to take over can be a big detriment at times.


Note I did not list wrightpocolypse as a strength for wiz and archivist because it is not, in this debate. We are talking domination, not destruction. Locate City Bomb is great for DESTROYING the world, but we're not talking about destroying it. We are talking about DOMINATING it, which means you actually have control and power over the world and it's people...all the wrightpocolypse dose is make you like one of the survivors in a zombie apocalypse film.....a far cry from glorious god king of the plane.

Anyway, you can add to the strengths and weaknesses list as you like...but the main thing I want to do is settle the debate once and for all and see what you all say about this topic that I have mused uppon for quite some time.....which class is best for world domination...and I am looking at three categories, here...

Speed: How fast can the class began it's global domination shenanigans? Can it start doing it at mid-levels or is it a class that can't take over anything until it gets epic spellcasting?

Ease of conquest: Can the class pull it's global domination shenanigans with little work or dose it have to manipulate countless people and events, spin scheme after scheme and pull xantos gambits out it's *** to take over?

Reliability: How reliable is the classes' domination method(s)? Is it's means of global domination like a house of cards that can be toppled with one act or is it's path to world domination hard to thwart?

So, with the groundwork established, tell me what you think is the best of these three classes for world domination?

[Shadow Lord]

Spell To Power Erudite Wins. Actually, Wizard wins. Because it's a gods damned Wizard!

[Vandicus]

I'm inclined to think that the cleric would do so most quickly, because of his ability to use a deity as the rallying point for his cause and the ability to create an army. And who knows, the deity might give him stronger miracles or other bonuses for conquering in its name.

[sreservoir]

archivist gets glibness from the divine bard's spell list, casts glibness, casts divine insight, casts guidance of the avatar, and now has +60 to a single bluff check. get an audience with someone important -- to make someone helpful from take 10 while talking to the person in charge, tell them something ridiculous; unless they have at least +20 to sense motive, you'll automatically make it.

[[CLASSIFIED]]

Wizard goes around in various disguises, dominates rulers of kingdoms for long enough to implement the changes he desires, such as naming the Wizard the new heir to the throne. King suddenly dies from "disease" or some other cover story for the wizard killing him. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If it came down to face to face combat, then the battle would be either rocket tag or really pointless because everyone would be on their own private planes with really fast time using Astral Projections so that they never really die.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actual conflict between the classes is a non-issue. I am simply seeing everybody's opinions on which of the three classes is the best class for world domination mechanically.(so has some crunch behind it's world domination methods.)

[Jack_Simth]

In my moderately humble opinion, it will boil down more to player skill, and how much rules (ab)use is permitted, more than which T-1 class is used.

For instance, the Archivist has a simple method by which to make Divine scrolls of arbitrary spells: the magic item Prerequisites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites) allow for collaboration, and when making scrolls (thanks to a clause under their activation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#activatetheSpell): "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.") the creator determines whether it's arcane or divine. Normally, this clause can be used to create neigh-useless curiosities; if a Wizard collaborates with a Cleric, they can make an Arcane scroll of Greater Restoration (usable only via UMD). With the Archivist, though: If the Archivist provides the XP and the Scribe Scroll, it's a Divine scroll, regardless of the source of the spell... which means the Archivist can thereafter scribe it into the Archivist's prayer book, provided that the Archivist can find someone capable of casting it who'll collaborate (or someone who can fake it in collaboration, such as a cohort Warlock-12 with Use Magic Device).

Of course, with the Assume Supernatural Ability feat from Savage Species (page 30), can also start the spawn chain; potentially, a necropolitan Wizard-4 (or Archivist-4... or maybe a Cleric-4 with the right domain...) with Alter Self and Assume Supernatural Ability(Create Spawn) can turn into a Wight and start offing commoner-1's to do the chain.

Hence, player skill.

[JaronK]

Archivist. Since he's planning this out in advance, he can take the time to research ALL the good army building spells, because they're all on divine lists anyway (seriously, try to name one that isn't on a divine list somewhere... and remember that all the Wiz/Sorc spells are grabbed via the Dragon Magic Favored Soul variant or the Cleric domain variant or the Hexer PrC or some other such nonsense). The fact is, if an Archivist really wants to, he can do everything the others can do and more. He just needs research time.

Second place goes to the Wizard, because he can cast Genesis and play with time, at which point he instantly wins. He can also use Animate Dread Warrior to get ancient heroes of the past on his side. Plus he can use Planar Binding wish loops for easier funds. The Archivist can do this too of course.

Cleric is in last place, because divine Genesis is a worse spell (no playing with time traits allowed)... and I don't think he can get a divine version of the arcane version without being a goblinoid, which is annoying (but you could Shapechange into a Black Ethergaunt and get it done that way I suppose... still, it's more annoying to do it that way). Planar Ally isn't as good as Planar Binding either.

JaronK

[Angry Bob]

I humbly submit artificer for this thing as well:

Can cast every spell ever, often levels earlier than he should be able to.

Not only can he cast every spell, but he doesn't need to worry about spell slots, the usual answer to why a wizard might have a hard time taking on a city. The only limit on his casting is essentially how deep his pockets are. If we're assuming high levels, that's pretty deep, especially since he's making all of his own items, and often at absurdly reduced prices.

Even without custom items, a properly-equipped wand specialist is worth an army or two on his or her own.

With custom items, things just get absurd in a real hurry.

So yeah, add artificer to your first post.

EDIT: Mechanical means? Pick your poison. Any of the above, and then some.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, Archivist < Cleric at army building due to a lack of rebuke undead. Rebuke is what really makes the Cleric the best army builder...and I don't know of any PrCs that grant rebuke which Archivists are able to enter.(All the PrCs either offer TURN(not rebuke) or have requirements speicfic to clerics, such as domains...if there is a PrC that can give an archivist rebuke I would like to know..)

So that means archivists are not army builders unless they can somehow get rebuke. They do have other things going for them, such as economancy and enchantment, the latter being a very good option seeing as they can get stuff like glibness and such that both wizards and clerics lack. So they can't match the cleric for the undead legion, but they are superior to both the wizard and cleric when it comes to political manipulation and on-par with both when it comes to economancy.

[Wings of Peace]

Nobody wins. They each realize that if they did take over the world the task of ruling it would slow down their studies allowing the other two classes time to surpass them.

[The Glyphstone]

Didn't you already start at least two or three of these threads?

Regardless, an Archivist can take a dip in Death Delver to gain Rebuke Undead, though it won't advance past effective level 1st unless he gives up his spellcasting advancement (which he won't, that'd be stupid). Not that Rebuke Undead actually significantly matters in terms of undead armies...really, it's an extra 20-25 HD of undead at level 20 with effective-level boosters. With an equal amount of caster-level boosters, both competitors will be dragging 100+HD of undead with them normally. And if spawn-chains are allowed, both sides go infinite anyways.

So the Cleric may technically outweigh the Archivist in 'total army size' (by a steady 20-25%), but the Archivist is a vastly, overwhelmingly superior character for actually taking over the world because of his access to the far more haxxor arcane magics.

[Vandicus]

So the Cleric may technically outweigh the Archivist in 'total army size' (by a steady 20-25%), but the Archivist is a vastly, overwhelmingly superior character for actually taking over the world because of his access to the far more haxxor arcane magics.

The Archivist needs to research all his spells though. I think this gives the cleric a solid advantage in terms of time to achieve his objective. Same for the wizard.

*EDIT

To follow the guidelines for rating, and using a relative system.

Cleric
Speed: 5/5(knows entire spell list)
Power: 4.5/5
Ease of Conquest 5/5

Wizard
Speed:3/5(because of research time/costs)
Power:5/5
Ease of Conquest: 5/5

Archivist
Speed:3.5/5(beacuse of research time/costs, but it will be cheaper and quicker for an archivist because they can learn lower level versions of spells)
Power:5/5
Ease of Conquest: 5/5

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but an archivist overall gets better spells then a cleric dose. The cleric is the best out of the three at making an undead army. However, at everything else, the wizard is better, and the archivist is even better then the wizard. You should not discount that the archivist also gets the druid list, which as mentioned before has some amazingly good world domination spells. Who needs an undead army when you can force a nation into submission by destroying it's harvests/attacking it's food resources via weather control spells?

Also, in the field of mind control and manipulating political leaders it's worth mentioning that the archivist is the only class in the game that can learn both mindrape AND monstrous thrall....and with divine bard can get the low-level memory erasure spell, which makes them better mental dominators then even the wizard. With diplomacy as a class skill, access to all the good social skill buffs and domination spells and the ability to make his victims not remembered they where dominated the archivist is above even the wizard in this front, so long as he can get the scrolls he needs.

[Vandicus]

Depending on the setting, once those casters hits a certain level, world domination starts coming pretty quickly. Faerun I'd give the edge to archivist, it takes a lot of spells to go up against the epic level characters there. In your average setting, cleric has the edge from the beginning because he's got better HD and armor. The second the cleric hits level 5, he can start animating the dead and creating his army while slaughtering many more enemies to both strengthen his armies and gain more xp. The archivist takes an extra day, and the wizard takes two more levels.

[holywhippet]

archivist gets glibness from the divine bard's spell list, casts glibness, casts divine insight, casts guidance of the avatar, and now has +60 to a single bluff check. get an audience with someone important -- to make someone helpful from take 10 while talking to the person in charge, tell them something ridiculous; unless they have at least +20 to sense motive, you'll automatically make it.

According to the SRD, a person gets +20 on their sense motive check if "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider." Now, that's if you are telling them something almost too incredible to consider. If you are telling them something that they'd think to be completely impossible the bonus would be even higher. On top of that, they get a bonus if you want them to do something they don't want to do.

In any case, why is there so much talk about undead? Other casters can rebuke them or take control of them. If you want a powerhouse of an army then send in the golems.

[Vemynal]

awww, no Druid or Artificer?

I'd love to see what your opinions of these two classes are.

Sadly, I don't know either class well enough to propose their pros and cons for world domination. So listing those would be an interesting read as well

[Maho-Tsukai]

The Undead army is being discussed because it's the only army that's mechanically feesable(Barring stealing a nation's army via taking it over via one over via economancy, political manipulation ect...). A golem army would cost so much gold and XP to create that generating the numbers needed for actual conquest would be nigh-impossible unless your epic level, in which case you don't even need an army to take over as a single epic spell can do that job for you, and most likely for less gold and XP to boot.

[Jack_Simth]

In any case, why is there so much talk about undead? Other casters can rebuke them or take control of them. If you want a powerhouse of an army then send in the golems.
Undead are cheap, (and there's ways to make them *free*, if you don't mind a little murder and a small feat investment), can be made at fairly low levels (as low as 1st for basic zombies, with the right build), and certain controllable undead can reproduce (Wights, Shadows, Spectres, and Wraiths are all Core reproducing undead).
Meanwhile, Golems are expensive, require highish levels to make, require three feats to produce, and can't make more of themselves.

Likewise, it doesn't matter if the Cleric you're facing off against can Turn and Destroy 30 hit dice of undead, six times per day, if you're throwing 20,000 chain spawned 4-hit dice Wights at him.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why the focus on the undead army? Planar Binding nets you access to 'generals' who can make you an army rather quickly.

For that matter, simply puppeteer various leaders nets you THEIR army.

The big question is... why bother? By the time you get to that point in any of those classes, you have more important things than taking over some backwater dimension like Klah...

[Jack_Simth]

Why the focus on the undead army? Planar Binding nets you access to 'generals' who can make you an army rather quickly. A couple of reasons.

1) Generals from Planar Binding are no longer really bound after a number of days equal to your caster level in most cases.
2) Undead you've created are generally quite loyal, and are quite inexpensive.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A couple of reasons.

1) Generals from Planar Binding are no longer really bound after a number of days equal to your caster level in most cases.
2) Undead you've created are generally quite loyal, and are quite inexpensive.

That's why Mindrape was invented...

Now he's your most devoted servant who lives only to see your every whim fulfilled.

[sreservoir]

According to the SRD, a person gets +20 on their sense motive check if "The bluff is way out there, almost too incredible to consider." Now, that's if you are telling them something almost too incredible to consider. If you are telling them something that they'd think to be completely impossible the bonus would be even higher. On top of that, they get a bonus if you want them to do something they don't want to do.

yes, and glibness eats it for breakfast and starts its brunch with its +30 to bluff.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and I don't see how a powerful outsider can provide you an army unless he can animate undead..so I don't get what you mean for getting generals from Planar binding other then using them as inteligent commanders for your undead hoard or the army you just stole from the emperor you brainwashed......Oh, and mind rape is a 9th.

Archivist can get away with using dominate spells instead of mind rape since he can get modify memory(?) from divine bard and make sure whoever he dominates is not angry for dominating them when the spell ends....but things aren't so good for the wizard...

[sreservoir]

or diplomacy, you know. archivist gets it as a class skill, even.

[Urpriest]

Slaad Brooder. Which by the way, would be awesome as an Iron Chef ingredient.

[holywhippet]

The problem with the wight bomb is, AFAIK, those extra wights that are created don't start off under your control. If you aren't doing it under controlled conditions then things may get out of hand. I suspect if you did unleash a wight bomb, your main concern wouldn't be enemy spellcasters but the Gods.

With regards to the cost of golems - just set them to work mining for valuable resources you can use to fund your golem building efforts.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but don't you kinda need to be a Slaad to take that class? Non tier-1 classes are out of the picture and last time I checked, LA and racial hit dice are not a tier 1 class, or a class at all, for that matter.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, but don't you kinda need to be a Slaad to take that class? Non tier-1 classes are out of the picture and last time I checked, LA and racial hit dice are not a tier 1 class, or a class at all, for that matter.

Polymorph Any Object called, it wants to know why you blocked it on Facebook.:smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Yeah, but don't you kinda need to be a Slaad to take that class? Non tier-1 classes are out of the picture and last time I checked, LA and racial hit dice are not a tier 1 class, or a class at all, for that matter.

Actually, I was referring to Planar Binding one. Probably combined with Mindrape.

[Silva Stormrage]

If archivist has access to every spell ever than obviously it is the strongest.

If not than I believe wizard would be the strongest.

Mind rape is amazing at making people your willing slaves and a high level wizard with a chained metamagic rod can mind rape A LOT of people.

Also greater planar binding is simply rigged. Call a pit fiend, mind rape... pit fiend destroying a city. Most cities can't destroy a pit fiend at all due to regeneration so it could wipe out a good percentage of the world.

[Dumbledore lives]

Armies are kind of pointless once you get to a really high level of play. I think the archivist may have the advantage though, especially if you include divine bard or the like, because he can get pretty much any spell he wants, he can even do the astral projection trick from genesis, so can be effectively invincible.

[Silva Stormrage]

Armies are kind of pointless once you get to a really high level of play. I think the archivist may have the advantage though, especially if you include divine bard or the like, because he can get pretty much any spell he wants, he can even do the astral projection trick from genesis, so can be effectively invincible.

Armies are pointless for conflicts between two high level casters. Getting an army is very nice for world domination. You need to delegate after all :smallbiggrin:.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Get a Jumplomancer cohort. Congratulations, instant army, just add fanatic diplomacy checks.

Ways to get a Jumpolomancer cohort:

1) find one, and Mindrape it into being your willing slave

2) Limited Wish to replicate psionic power Psychic Reformation to build one

3) Leadership feat and have it as your Cohort

4) Thrallherd/Mindbender and get one as a class ability

[Shadow Lord]

Shadowcraft Mage, with it's 140% real Implore means that you can bind a friggin Demon Lord. Wizard wins :smallcool: ithink

[Urpriest]

Shadowcraft Mage, with it's 140% real Implore means that you can bind a friggin Demon Lord. Wizard wins :smallcool: ithink

How much of an effect does 140% reality have on Implore and the like, incidentally? Is it just more hp and more damage? I've always been a little unclear on what additional reality gives you for conjurations.

[Flickerdart]

How much of an effect does 140% reality have on Implore and the like, incidentally? Is it just more hp and more damage? I've always been a little unclear on what additional reality gives you for conjurations.
By Shadow Conjuration, a summoned creature would have 140% the HP and AC (regardless of saves), and deal 140% damage against objects creatures that recognize it as a shadow creature.

[charcoalninja]

Yeah, but an archivist overall gets better spells then a cleric dose. The cleric is the best out of the three at making an undead army. However, at everything else, the wizard is better, and the archivist is even better then the wizard. You should not discount that the archivist also gets the druid list, which as mentioned before has some amazingly good world domination spells. Who needs an undead army when you can force a nation into submission by destroying it's harvests/attacking it's food resources via weather control spells?

Also, in the field of mind control and manipulating political leaders it's worth mentioning that the archivist is the only class in the game that can learn both mindrape AND monstrous thrall....and with divine bard can get the low-level memory erasure spell, which makes them better mental dominators then even the wizard. With diplomacy as a class skill, access to all the good social skill buffs and domination spells and the ability to make his victims not remembered they where dominated the archivist is above even the wizard in this front, so long as he can get the scrolls he needs.

Miracle doesn't have an exp cost unless you go beyond the strength of a normal miracle, thus a high level cleric has every spell ever of 7th(or 8th? can't remember) and wins the game.

[Flickerdart]

Miracle doesn't have an exp cost unless you go beyond the strength of a normal miracle, thus a high level cleric has every spell ever of 7th(or 8th? can't remember) and wins the game.
Who cares about low-level spells? Nines are what it's all about.

[Shadow Lord]

How much of an effect does 140% reality have on Implore and the like, incidentally? Is it just more hp and more damage? I've always been a little unclear on what additional reality gives you for conjurations.

You could probably also get extra HD, since that is a numerical effect of the spell. YMMV

[Gwendol]

I always thought Bards would be uniquely set to take over the world? They can simply win the hearts and minds of nearly everyone, then (taking enough levels in Warchanter) use inspire legion to destroy the opposition.

[Flickerdart]

I always thought Bards would be uniquely set to take over the world? They can simply win the hearts and minds of nearly everyone, then (taking enough levels in Warchanter) use inspire legion to destroy the opposition.
Mindrape is a Wizard spell.

[The Glyphstone]

Mindrape is a Wizard spell.

Does Sublime Chord count as cheating then?

[Urpriest]

Does Sublime Chord count as cheating then?

No, but it has a bit of trouble being a Warchanter 10 as well.

[charcoalninja]

Who cares about low-level spells? Nines are what it's all about.

9s are awesome, but Cleric has enough 9s to do anything he needs and not having to rely on loopy costly shenanigens to create effects is a huge bonus. Just adds a tonne of versitility to the mix that the wizard can't touch without heavy costs.

[The Glyphstone]

No, but it has a bit of trouble being a Warchanter 10 as well.

Oh, right.

[Gwendol]

The question is: Does the bard need Mindrape?

[dextercorvia]

The question is: Does the bard need Mindraped?

Fixed. And the answer is now Yes.

[Groverfield]

No Psion/Erudite?

Depends on how much you allow rule abuse. Warlock at level 14 gets access to all spells ever for crafting... then use crafting to make scrolls that you'll always be able to use, or wands, or infinite-use wondrous items, plus the "take over the world" bonuses for having a high CHA, and a few invocations that buff that.

I'm going to go make the Machiavellock now...

[Coidzor]

The Archivist needs to research all his spells though. I think this gives the cleric a solid advantage in terms of time to achieve his objective. Same for the wizard.

The cleric has to level up too, and so most of the time difference is going to be as negligible as it is for if they were in the same party.

So time to learn spells & get them put into his book is pretty much irrelevant quibbling & entirely secondary to the actual powers which are at issue here.


The Undead army is being discussed because it's the only army that's mechanically feesable(Barring stealing a nation's army via taking it over via one over via economancy, political manipulation ect...).

You seem to always forget just using diplomancy to make everyone your adoring slave.

Considering the stat buffs available, a warforged that maxes out his perform check, doesn't even need to be a bard, can cast the buffs or get them cast on him, start singing or whatever, and everyone who hears him automatically loves him forever.


The cleric is the best out of the three at making an undead army.

1 feat makes the entirety of the cleric's advantage in making an undead army entirely meaningless. :smalltongue: & if you're assuming chain-spawning to get infinitely expanding undead horde, then...

[deuxhero]

G: Bard


Because Diplomancy can give you multiple equal level full casters as fanatics.

[Morithias]

Here's my opinion.

Take a fire souled creature (LA +3 template, gives free leadership feat) with at least base charisma of 14 (boosted to 18 via template)

You now have a leadership score of 7, and the feat, which qualifies you for the legendary leader class (heroes of battle)

Take all 5 levels of that class, now flip open complete scourderal. Look at uncanny trickster. Take 3 levels in it, boosting your effective legendary leader level to 7.

Now open heroes of battle and look at the "ranks" system. "General" is rank 7.

You can literally enlist in ANY army in the world, and automatically declare yourself it's new general, now turn that army on the king and take over!

If you really want to go insane, start taking levels in legacy champion for your last 10 levels. Boom now you're level 17 effectively, a rank that RAW DOESN'T EVEN EXIST. No army is not your slave. At least not one that has a brain (ironically won't work on undead or constructs, but I'm sure you now have more than enough that natural 20's will take down any undead hoard assuming you have transmuting weapons).

And the world is now yours.

Hey people are talking about druids and artificers, why not this? XD

[stainboy]

Wizard. A wizard who's allowed to buy scrolls can pull a more or less fiat-proof wish loop at level 7. Level 7 WBL is 8000gp, so you should be able to afford four Scrolls of Planar Binding. CL 11, Will DC 19. An efreet has a +9 Will save so you've got a 91% chance that one of the four scrolls will work.

Other spells required are Magic Circle vs Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Charm Monster. An efreet has no SR and it can't win the opposed charisma check unless your cha is 5 or worse. It can't escape, all it can do is refuse to bargain. So the only other possible point of failure is Charm Monster and you get to keep trying that one until it sticks.

Once the efreet is charmed, explain the mutual benefits of wish-looping and win D&D forever.

[Morithias]

Wizard. A wizard who's allowed to buy scrolls can pull a more or less fiat-proof wish loop at level 7. Level 7 WBL is 8000gp, so you should be able to afford four Scrolls of Planar Binding. CL 11, Will DC 19. An efreet has a +9 Will save so you've got a 91% chance that one of the four scrolls will work.

Other spells required are Magic Circle vs Evil, Dimensional Anchor, and Charm Monster. An efreet has no SR and it can't win the opposed charisma check unless your cha is 5 or worse. It can't escape, all it can do is refuse to bargain. So the only other possible point of failure is Charm Monster and you get to keep trying that one until it sticks.

Once the efreet is charmed, explain the mutual benefits of wish-looping and win D&D forever.

I would like to point out that Charm Monster makes them treat you as "friendly" not "helpful" or "Fanatic".

[stainboy]

I would like to point out that Charm Monster makes them treat you as "friendly" not "helpful" or "Fanatic".

The efreet has nothing to lose by cooperating. They grant wishes as a 3/day SLA that costs them nothing. It's a minor favor. Friendly is good enough.

[Kansaschaser]

For the sake of argument, what if you start the Wizard, Cleric, and Archivist all at level 20? For instance, you give each player a level 20 character. Then you see how fast each one can take over the world. Who would win in that instance?

Can they take a prestige class, or are they pure Wizard, Cleric, and Archivist?

Also, are they all trying to take over the same world? Or are they each on their own planet so they don't get to interact with one another?

[mootoall]

If we're doing TO anyway, why doesn't the wizard win at level one by Pun-Punning?

[sreservoir]

If we're doing TO anyway, why doesn't the wizard win at level one by Pun-Punning?

because everyone else can do that, too.

[JaronK]

For the sake of argument, what if you start the Wizard, Cleric, and Archivist all at level 20? For instance, you give each player a level 20 character. Then you see how fast each one can take over the world. Who would win in that instance?

If the Cleric has the right domain, all three can cast Shapechange to get the casting of a Cleric (Solar) or Wizard (Black Ethergaunt) so it really doesn't matter.

JaronK

[2xMachina]

Would be more fun, if they all started at lvl 1. When can they rule the world?

[mootoall]

because everyone else can do that, too. Only the Wizard has a familiar with which to share the appropriate spells.

[Doktor Per]

The efreet has nothing to lose by cooperating. They grant wishes as a 3/day SLA that costs them nothing. It's a minor favor. Friendly is good enough.

"Dude, stop being a mooch." The efreet said as he sat down on Abracadabrus's couch. A bowl of cheetos blinking into existence on his lap. "Get some bards in here, this place is dull."
"Wait wha- this isn't supposed to be how it goe-" Abracadabrus started speaking, but before he could finish his words, a whole marching band marches in through his door. "STOP IT IMMEDIATELY! I want that wish, friend."
The efreeti blinked slowly. "Bro, that would be like my last wish of the day. That's pretty major. I'm not just gonna pop in every time you need a thing done, that's not what friends do." The surroundings suddenly changes to the beach, and Abracadabrus finds himself wearing a Hawaii shirt. "This is what friends do."

[Morithias]

"Dude, stop being a mooch." The efreet said as he sat down on Abracadabrus's couch. A bowl of cheetos blinking into existence on his lap. "Get some bards in here, this place is dull."
"Wait wha- this isn't supposed to be how it goe-" Abracadabrus started speaking, but before he could finish his words, a whole marching band marches in through his door. "STOP IT IMMEDIATELY! I want that wish, friend."
The efreeti blinked slowly. "Bro, that would be like my last wish of the day. That's pretty major. I'm not just gonna pop in every time you need a thing done, that's not what friends do." The surroundings suddenly changes to the beach, and Abracadabrus finds himself wearing a Hawaii shirt. "This is what friends do."

Yeah, exactly. "Friend" =/= "servant" that's what fanatic is for.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Only the Wizard has a familiar with which to share the appropriate spells.

Fortunately, there's a Feat for that.

[Otodetu]

"Dude, stop being a mooch." The efreet said as he sat down on Abracadabrus's couch. A bowl of cheetos blinking into existence on his lap. "Get some bards in here, this place is dull."
"Wait wha- this isn't supposed to be how it goe-" Abracadabrus started speaking, but before he could finish his words, a whole marching band marches in through his door. "STOP IT IMMEDIATELY! I want that wish, friend."
The efreeti blinked slowly. "Bro, that would be like my last wish of the day. That's pretty major. I'm not just gonna pop in every time you need a thing done, that's not what friends do." The surroundings suddenly changes to the beach, and Abracadabrus finds himself wearing a Hawaii shirt. "This is what friends do."

Does not sounds very lawful evil high mental stat to me...

Abracadabrus might have had some bad luck summoning such a random and laid back Efreeti.

[2xMachina]

"Dude, stop being a mooch." The efreet said as he sat down on Abracadabrus's couch. A bowl of cheetos blinking into existence on his lap. "Get some bards in here, this place is dull."
"Wait wha- this isn't supposed to be how it goe-" Abracadabrus started speaking, but before he could finish his words, a whole marching band marches in through his door. "STOP IT IMMEDIATELY! I want that wish, friend."
The efreeti blinked slowly. "Bro, that would be like my last wish of the day. That's pretty major. I'm not just gonna pop in every time you need a thing done, that's not what friends do." The surroundings suddenly changes to the beach, and Abracadabrus finds himself wearing a Hawaii shirt. "This is what friends do."

Unfortunately, the Efreet cannot wish for itself. All the suddenly appearing stuff? Won't happen unless Abracadabrus wishes for it.

In fact, an easy negotiation would be: "I get 2 wishes and I make 1 wish for you"

[stainboy]

Yeah, that.

Efreeti don't seem to know about wish looping until you tell them. We can see from their stat block that they don't have items that grant wishes. Any efreet who had actually read the Wish spell and his own monster entry would call up one of his salamander slaves, order it to start a wish loop, and then take the item for himself. But they apparently don't know how their own SLA works. That's what they need you for.

[mootoall]

Fortunately, there's a Feat for that. For arcane casters, the only one of which in this scenario is the wizard. Why do you think the Lightning Warrior was so underpowered? It had to spend a *feat* to be the most powerful thing in the universe.

[Doktor Per]

I really like the flexibility of clerical casting with the low maintenance cost of the spell list. He's going to be ahead fiscally which makes me give the edge to CLERIC.


Does not sounds very lawful evil high mental stat to me...

Abracadabrus might have had some bad luck summoning such a random and laid back Efreeti.

Well the point that I'm trying to make here, is that an Efreeti (or any sort of Genie) probably has had a lifetime of mooches hanging on them, so why would they want to enable behavior that just leads to abuse when they are intelligent and selfish creatures. Imagine yourself being called up at all times, by people you don't know, trying to be your friend, getting your wishes and then just disbanding you. Man! You'd have to be damaged to want that to continue.

I as a DM would always send in Taco the mooch Genie, who just eats their crap and gives them grief. Maybe he'd even make a big speech, about how he always has to do everything, or he feels so used. No cheating at my table. If they want a real "genie in the lamp" thing, they better be ready to work for it. You should always expect your DM to do the same "things aren't quite as simple as that."

[Coidzor]

Much easier to just use the candle of invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation) path to wish loops and an infinitely growing army of simulacra.


I as a DM would always send in Taco the mooch Genie, who just eats their crap and gives them grief. Maybe he'd even make a big speech, about how he always has to do everything, or he feels so used. No cheating at my table. If they want a real "genie in the lamp" thing, they better be ready to work for it. You should always expect your DM to do the same "things aren't quite as simple as that."

Which has exactly 0 to do with the given scenario, Mr. DM. :smalltongue:

[mootoall]

Infinite simulacra still doesn't beat Pun-Pun. Doesn't even beat his army of proxied demigod squirrels. TO always means the wizard wins quickest.

[noparlpf]

Hard to say; I've never played an archivist, my clerics were typically healers, and my wizards were typically blasters. (I haven't played a wizard since I was a beginner at the game.)

I'm tempted to suggest the UA generic spellcaster because you get to select which skills are class skills and you have access to all cleric, druid and wizard spells. This one is limited by spells known like the sorcerer, but if you pick your spells carefully and invest in wands, runestaves, or knowstones, you should do fine.

[Flickerdart]

Infinite simulacra still doesn't beat Pun-Pun. Doesn't even beat his army of proxied demigod squirrels. TO always means the wizard wins quickest.
So Paladin wins then?

[sreservoir]

only paladin is RAW guaranteed to be able to pull it off at 1.

[mootoall]

I do suppose it's true. The Wizard version doesn't *have* to use the "make your own ability" version of Manipulate Form, which I'd say makes it "more RAW," if it can be such a thing, by staying solely within printed abilities ...

[sreservoir]

I do suppose it's true. The Wizard version doesn't *have* to use the "make your own ability" version of Manipulate Form, which I'd say makes it "more RAW," if it can be such a thing, by staying solely within printed abilities ...

nobody needs to. see, wizards have this stupidly overpowered ability which lets them stay just ahead of lightning warriors:



Familiar

A wizard can obtain a familiar in exactly the same manner as a sorcerer can.


so the wizard manages to be faster at omnipotence by ... one use of manipulate form, is that it?

[Doktor Per]

Which has exactly 0 to do with the given scenario, Mr. DM. :smalltongue:

The scenario of using a sentient being of high intellect which can be called upon at almost any time to garner endless wishes. If that is a viable option, you open up a can of worms for the entire campaign world. Why hasn't ever big bad caster in the universe done this already? My argument is that a world where this is possible has to be young, ill-educated and fated for extinction. It's not so much a rule argument as it is a common sense / fluff / flavor argument.

Maybe I just don't get the discussion.

[mootoall]

so the wizard manages to be faster at omnipotence by ... one use of manipulate form, is that it?

Heh, well if he does it quicker, he wins the competition, doesn't he?